Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast featuring real conversations with conscious objectors to the status quo. I'm your host, Nicole.
On today's episode, we are celebrating the two-year anniversary of the podcast with a special reflection episode with my dear friend, Dan. Together we talk about the divine intervention of meeting a kinky person, the uncomfortability of emotions, and embracing the full human experience. I have been so afraid to release this episode because I talked about my own kink preferences and that's scary. There is so much shame and so much taboo and judgment around these things that releasing that in a public platform and talking about the self-care that Exploring Kink has been feels really vulnerable and it feels very scary. But the whole purpose, the whole mission of this podcast is to have conversations with people who are opposing the status quo for the unashamed pursuit of authenticity. And I think that sex and our enjoyment of pleasure is a huge place where so many of us are ashamed for what we like and what we enjoy.
And I hope to be a part of a movement that is changing that reality. We can let go of the shame when we realize that we are not the only ones who have these desires and who have these fantasies. I think it's really interesting there was a social psychologist who interviewed 4,000 adults on the content of their sexual fantasies. And again, all of this stuff I'll talk about is linked below in the show notes.
So if you want to check it out, feel free to look below and you'll find the research studies for all the things I talk about in the episodes. And the researcher found that BDSM fantasies were the second most popular fantasy. And yet all this taboo, all the shame, yet the second most popular fantasy. Okay, and even more fascinating is that women had more BDSM themed fantasies than men.
Women were twice as likely to have bondage fantasies, four times as likely to have masochism fantasies, and 17 % more likely to have sadism fantasies. Okay, y'all, we need to start talking about this. I feel so much shame about mine. And yet here we are with evidence showing that this is normal. This is beyond normal.
This is really common. And when I talk about this in the episode, when we know the research from Brene Brown and all the psychological research that talks about shame being the one thing. That makes us feel like we can't be in connection with others and causes so much psychological turmoil. We need to start talking about how we all have these desires and these fantasies. And so I hope that today's radical conversation can be a step in that direction towards a movement where we can let go of shame for having these normal and very hot desires. And yeah, as I'm releasing this episode, dear listener, this is my finals week.
I am currently staring at a 10 page study guide for my psychopharmacology exam worth 50 % of my grade tomorrow. So please send me good luck for that experience that I am going to absolutely conquer. We're thinking positive mindset here, but I just want to say thank you to all of the listeners who have continued to check in each week for the listeners. Who have been here since day one to go on this wild journey and all of the places that we have explored together. I just want to say thank you from the bottom of my heart and also a huge shout out to all of the Patreons that are building community with me in the modern anarchy family space and supporting the long term sustainability of this social movement project.
I couldn't do it without you. And for all the listeners who can't support in that way, the biggest thing that I could ask of you is that you take a moment to send this podcast or maybe look back through the last year and find your favorite episode and send it to a friend. Send it to a friend who you think would benefit from the radical and open and vulnerable conversations that we are having in this space. Sending this podcast to a friend through a quick text is how we're going to change the world. It is one person at a time conversation through conversation where we are letting go of shame and embracing our beautiful erotic authenticity. So I appreciate you all so so much and together we will keep going on this journey and learning one conversation at a time.
I hope you enjoy today's episode and tune in. So I think one thing that I would like to hear from you. I think that sometimes I get too close to the podcast and it's just like what I do, you know, every week and I don't feel like the effects that it might be having. And I think it was really interesting to connect with you and from your story of how the podcast landed with you and what it did.
Because I never thought that it would be hitting that way with people. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I would totally share that. Yeah.
That's how we met. Yeah, I'd love to if you'd be willing to share it. Yeah, from where do you want me to start? I guess wherever the podcast starts for you because that's like the center point of it, right?
Okay. When did you first listen to it or what? You said you cried. I don't know. Yeah. Okay. Well, we met climbing.
Right. And we were chatting and you told me about your podcast. So I was curious. And I was listening. I'd listened to a couple and I was traveling on a work trip.
And driving. And yeah, you had a guest on who said that your trauma, that it wasn't your fault, but it was your responsibility to yourself to sort of work on it. And it felt like the right message at the right time. I was going through a lot at that time. And that was one layer of what I was going through. And yeah, it really resonated with me and broke me down, which I needed. And it felt great to break down and to just really connect with something and to know sort of the way, the way that I should go.
Because it was just like an injustice to myself. Like put some work in. Try a little bit. And I didn't know. You know, you don't know, but... What do you mean? You know, we didn't talk about mental health at all. Not any like therapy was like laughable. Really?
Oh yeah. Like nobody went to therapy in my family or even talked about it. There was just like a zero percent. And there was mental illness throughout both sides.
And none of it was talked about. Yeah. Yeah, so going to therapy, which is just so interesting.
It's like being proactive. But at that time it was just, I think stigmatized. Well, yeah. Yeah, I felt stigmatized. And not talked about.
Yeah, so I didn't know for a while. But then, you know, I was in the field. And I had been exposed to kids that had seen a lot of trauma. Yeah. And it's just so hard. Or it becomes apparent, you know, the parallels. And you're just like, oh shit.
Like that. That's me. You know, that's me. But yeah, that episode really resonated with me. And it led to me going to therapy.
Wow. And it led to a lot of positive changes in my life. Yeah, I was going through a lot of break-up. And I was on the upswing. You know, I had rock bottomed. And I was in the feeling my autonomy really leaning into the space created. But yeah, it was the right message at the right time.
And it led to a lot of life-changing things, a lot of great things. Yeah. And she's beautiful. Yeah.
Yeah. I think it's hard to hear a world where therapy is laughable. That's hard for me to imagine right now. It is. And I think right now it is a little different.
But I mean, who knows? But you're older, right? So there is a generational divide. Right.
I'm almost 37. Exactly. So there's a generational divide between us. Yeah, it was. My ex was of the same world.
You know what I mean? So those generational divides. It was repressive.
There was one strat, repression. Man, yeah. Everyone processes grief in different ways, man. That's all right. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, because you just don't know. Right.
Yeah, you just don't know. At least for me growing up Christian, it was not laughable. It was more so I just didn't even know it existed. Because you go to your pastor to talk about your problems and you pray to Jesus.
So I just didn't even know. Yeah, I mean, religion was the way for our family too. That was the cure all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.
You pray. Exactly. And sometimes things would go that way.
And when it didn't, it just meant that it wasn't supposed to be that way. Yeah, it was not helpful for me. It was very unhelpful for me. It was just confusing.
Yeah. But like random. What did? What was random?
I guess results after trying to lean into religion at that point, you know, when like everybody around you is saying that prayer works, saying that like that kind of relationship is what should be guiding you. For me, that was very confusing. Yeah.
Because I didn't feel guided. Yeah. It felt random.
Yeah. Because there was bad things happening. So like random bad things happening. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was very chaotic. Right. So yeah, it just felt, none of it felt good. Yeah. You know, I never really felt safe.
That's fair. I'm also curious if there are gender differences like based on maybe your friend groups too and like what therapy was like in your like socialization with other men. Do you feel like? Most of my friends have not gone on therapy. Yeah. Most of my guy friends. Yeah.
It's a one out of like seven. Yeah. Well, too.
And I'm like, you know, working on it. But yeah, I think it's seen as a last resort. Like you have to be like things have gone horribly awry. This is the last thing that could ever help. Like, I guess we have to go down this road, you know, which is such a shame. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was very helpful for me. I should probably start there. Are you still?
Yeah. I didn't know you stopped. Why do you stop?
Because my therapist decided she didn't want to be a therapist anymore. Oh, fuck. I don't blame her. Yeah. Yeah. Well, she had, I think her second kid, I think.
She was cool. Yeah. Yeah. But I stopped. So do you want what do you want to do?
Yeah. I have the questions that I asked myself last year that I could re ask again. So we could do those or we could just free flow conversation and see where it takes us about all things. But I guess.
OK. Oh, I guess choosing you. She's a good cat. Yeah. Like that good egg. You're a good one. Yeah, let's just start with the questions. It's going to get me going and we'll just open free dialogue from there. OK. How has the podcast changed you in the last year? I think it's made me more radical, for sure. A lot of exposure. Yeah, I've had a lot of exposure to different ideas that I probably would have never came into contact before.
I think that one of the ones I have talked about or is going to come out in another episode soon with the Dominatrix was how I remember recording with Empress Wu. I don't know. It was early. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yes.
It's like really early. I think it was. Yeah, one of the very early ones. And I was just like so enamored by her like power.
Yeah. And I was like, I want to be like that. Wait, did you was that in person? No, that was all virtual.
It was all virtual. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But still, I was just like, of course, somebody can that can translate 100 percent. Well, yeah. And like just even like, I guess I followed her content on Instagram and like seen all that too. And just like the bad assery.
And I've always been like, but I could do that too. Right. You can. And I still think I know how to do that. Because I don't think I've stepped into that level of power and like fury and ability to play yet with myself.
I'm always a sub, so I've never been a dumb. That's like a whole different world. Yeah. Yeah, that's different. Different space.
If you've never been there. Yeah. That cat. I keep playing and getting closer and finding the spaces to do that and trying to play with it. I think that like, I guess that's one episode that has changed me a lot in this this last year, I think in general. But I don't know how to answer this question. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, no, I do. Yeah. We have to do you hit on like the bigger part. I mean, it is just you are exposed to so many different things. It's amazing. Yeah.
Type of people you come in contact with. Yeah. I do think it has made me more radical. Like I think my voice has gotten much larger. I think that's an interesting piece. I noticed right, I started working in the Academy in assisted psychotherapy. And when I would go into that space and sit with my supervisors who have doctorates and psychology and say, wow, I think when MDMA is legal, it's going to be so powerful for sex and relationship therapy and helping sexual assault survivors be able to reconnect to pleasure and have intimacy with other people.
And they're like, yeah, of course, like super exciting for you to go down that path and like figure out more with that. And then I will say that in class at school where I'm getting my training in psychology and they will look at me like I'm insane. Like this girl is talking about drugs.
This girl is talking about something that is wild, you know, and not really like seeing the full potential. But what I've noticed is that so then my voice gets louder. I've been starting to come back to classes and say things with a fury and a fire, which has been really interesting. But it's also made me so like frustrated in classes.
It's made me so frustrated. So I just very much so feel like at times I see things that like the school doesn't like really. When you get loud, do you feel how do you feel when you get loud? I feel like I have a fury.
I am furious. When I learn in I'm in psychopharmacology right now and when I learn that there are only, I believe, two or three drugs approved by the FDA for suicide and one of them has multiple black box labels. meaning there are like deathly side effects, literally. Like there can be fatal side effects with this anti-psychotic that is approved for suicide. And there's a list of like less than fatal obviously side effects.
But it's significant. What I've learned about anti-psychotics is that they have significant side effects. So there's that. And then there is also ketamine. Ketamine has been recently approved, right? And so when my professor said, yeah, so these are the true options we have. And then I said, well, it sounds like ketamine is better. And then he was like, well, we don't want to make any like judgment calls about one being better than the other. And I was like, but actually I think we should. I mean, when we look at the side effects of one that has a potentially fatal, you know what I mean?
Pros and cons. Yes, it was like neutral lympho. I don't even, some sort of kidney.
I'll have it linked in a show note below, right? Resources. Some sort of fatal kidney problem that could happen. And yeah, so when I saw that ketamine didn't have the same side effects of a black box label, I was like, it does seem different.
It seems better. And then he came back and he was like, well, you know, but like you can die from it. You can overdose. And I'm like, well, and I didn't respond, obviously, to this content. But then at that point, I'm internally going like, we can also die on Tylenol. Okay.
And everything. Yes, that is not a reason to say it's not better than a drug that clearly has significant side effects. And so I'm just sitting there and he says, also, well, ketamine can cause psychosis to which then I go to my supervisor who has a PhD. And I say, so can ketamine cause psychosis?
Because my professor said that. And then he says, no, there's no evidence that ketamine actually causes psychosis. It is an increase of psychomimetic factors like hallucinations. So yeah, it does increase factors that are similar to psychosis of seeing things, hearing things. Yeah.
It does not cause psychosis. Yeah. And we're talking about in an assisted setting, right? Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Right.
Exactly. I think what's tricky is obviously like, psychedelics amplify all those emotions. So if someone's already really dysregulated, yeah, we're talking about turning the volume up on that radically. So it's definitely not the answer for all things.
But at the same time, I was like, can it be a tool though? And it's kind of maybe better. Like, hold on. Yeah.
Is it maybe better, sir, because of the lack of side effects? Is it? When it's in black and white in front of you, it's hard not to say. And I get so frustrated then.
I am sitting in class furious that, you know, if someone's really suicidal, our option is, OK, here's some anti-psychotic with severe side effects that you're going to have a to get off of with like, withdrawal and dependency and all those sort of side effects versus ketamine, which doesn't cause that and has an effective profile based in research and less side effects. How? What? What's the option?
How are we adding that up? So I have been getting more furious in class. And I'm just like sitting there. I'm like, deep breaths, Nicole. Like just deep breaths. Don't scream.
Yeah, it is. Don't scream. A system. Yeah. So and then it's weird, right? Like, you tell me that story about therapy being a laughable thing and then coming to it and it being so life-saving, right? Yeah.
And then I record with another guest that's going to come out later, who was talking about how like therapy is reenacting like patriarchal and colonial means of oppression. And I'm like, yeah. But then I get depressed because then I'm thinking about like, wow, am I just causing harm? Like, am I just perpetuating the system?
I'm redoing the system and this and like, I need to get out of the system versus like a different perspective of someone on the other side is like therapy is saving my life, right? Yeah. There's that side too.
I know. There's a lot of that side. But depending on who I talk to on show.
Yeah. I will get some people who are really radical and I'm vibing and I love it. But also at the same time, I'm like, what's like the yes and to that of like therapy is helpful and good and also it is reenacting. Like it's from it is from like a system of oppression and right to like medicalize and and and just in capitalism in general, right? So it's tied to some. But all things stuff as they all are. Yeah. And obviously it's just a nuanced thing. But I think that's been hard lately because I keep talking radical guests and feeling just so frustrated with the system. Or I have to do it. Right.
And I recorded with B-Step, who was someone who they got their masters or as a therapist has advanced training to be a therapist and doesn't do it anymore. Just doesn't do it and now just runs somatic. Sorry. And now runs somatic work. Really?
Yeah. And I'm like, I wish I would have furthered that conversation with them of why did you quit therapy to do this and tell me the reasoning with all of that because I'm feeling these things too. When you say somatic work, what do you mean? Oh my God. So last time that I did medicine work with myself and my own spiritual practices, I sobbed crying that we don't have any somatic therapy or training in our program. There's not a single thing that talks about the body and the benefits of the body at all. It is all cognitive. It is all in that framework, which is obviously important and not something to forget, but like there's no discussion of Hey, helping people to learn how to take a deep breath is going to help them.
And that is just as important when we're talking about anxiety as the cognitive processing skills of CBT or these other sorts of types of modalities. Like there's not even close to equal footing, let alone any mention of somatics at all. Bizarre. I know. Right. It's like what everybody has a body. Those lungs. Right. And like we have books like The Body Keeps The Score, but that does has not trickled into like the psychological foundations required coursework for doctoral students. It is not reflective of our current modern like awareness of these topics.
Yeah. So there's nothing on the body for a doctoral level training psychologist right now. Seems like there's room. I know. I mean, there's obviously types of psychology afterwards.
You could like specialize in somatics and other sorts of things, but it's just nothing taught at this level. Sad. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like a massive hole.
Yeah. Because half the time I will say that I've never been happier than when my mind is silent. You know what I mean? Like the more I study like the Buddhist and mindfulness practices of just like quieting the monkey brain and getting to like actually stop having thoughts up there and just be in the present moment of sensation like pure sensation.
I've never been happier in my life. Flow. Yes. Yeah. A gift.
Every time I'm there. I know. But I'm not sitting down or maybe not yet at least, but like I'm not being taught to sit down with a client and be like, okay, so like let's slow down the mind. Let's take a deep breath. Let's slow these thoughts down and come back to presence and awareness and be here. And the reality is like some people have very serious myself included like serious family traumas that need to be talked about obviously in that therapy space.
So like that's really important to do and have that space to do that. But also like, why are we not being taught how to sit with someone and slow down their thoughts and just come back to their body and just exist for a little bit. I think sometimes with anxiety, someone has been who has been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder. I would like to say for the record of my personal experience with that disorder, nothing has helped more than mindfulness of just being able to stop.
everything right? in a sense of presence like if I'm actually able to meditate and stay with my breath like what I'm actually focused on thinking feeling is my breath there is no other thoughts running up around there going on it is quiet and I just feel this is also where I'm so like people get on my high horse people want to have great sex and they can't even like turn that off enough to be in the body yeah present in the moment yes it's hard that's right especially when you got Shane taboo blah blah blah we can throw it all on there but like I am always coming back to the reality that like yeah that ability to just be but it's hard because that's not the world that I live in obviously I'm a doctoral student you know so I'm studying I am creating things I am writing papers I am managing schedules I am deadlines like I am all these things so at the same time it's like I can't just like live in this world of like no thinking la di da I just sit around all day you know I mean quiet my mind the entire exactly to do exactly and those things are heavy with big did like deadlines and other sorts of things that stress me out mmm so then the time to meditate and find those moments I haven't been doing it I haven't been doing it I haven't been doing it I can tell when I haven't been doing it like when I don't for a while I can tell for sure yeah because that now that I'm not going to therapy that's like yeah basically I mean because I am disabled to flow yeah and focus and not think mm-hmm well that's what yoga was to me when I first started going to super helpful well because you step into a room my phones down the customary practice is that you know that phone stays away for those 60 minutes whether you like the class or not you know what I mean you have surrendered for the next 60 minutes to my power my job side coming out in the yoga but yeah you know so like no matter I mean some people might check a phone if I don't know but no one walks out in a yoga you know to me you submitted for 60 minutes to whatever I'm gonna give you pretend to be present yeah but that's half of the thing though because if you knew you can just walk out at any point this is why yoga at home is so hard because you can just walk out at any point be like yeah whatever yeah like when you're in a second tanner and like you're kind of forced right like it makes a difference yeah totally so I struggled with that my original plan I have a book on Buddhism was to like read a chapter each night because the chapters weren't that long and that like helped me to stay present and that helped me to like really quiet the mind and actually be in that space and yeah I stopped doing that it's hard yeah because I've also been trying to learn how to tune into my intuition which is somehow some sort of dialogue to right like that's an inner dialogue it's at some point like it's a part of the monkey brain or is it not the monkey brain because it's divine and it's intuition you know but like how am I supposed to quiet the thoughts but also like receive a thought you know yeah but that's also what I do find interesting is like a lot of people would recommend like silence and getting quiet with yourself because that's when so hard for me that's when the intuition and the other things can speak to you like when you are in that state to be able to just be quiet and slow down and just like be there for a couple of moments but yeah it's hard I've been sad yeah yeah yeah yeah not always I guess not every time and when I look back on the last year of this podcast was I sad all hundred all in this last year absolutely not I've had so many good recordings and fun things and like it's felt so good and so many moments of joy but I also just felt like so sad this week yeah I think it's just school and all the things and and obviously the world is in like a very tough place and heavy in that way there's just yeah wild things going on and I just I hear of wild things in my work I hear of wild things of like cases and pain and you know like my frame has become a little sad yeah a lot of sad and so I think I'm just learning how to adjust to seeing the world through that lens of like that many people hurting out there and that many stories and realizing the scale of pain that is most likely prominent for most people out there yeah there's a lot of pain yeah yeah I'm being in it can weigh you down yes especially if you're not finding those moments right yeah how do you fix that well hanging out with you earlier was lovely having like a I think that relationships have been really crucial I sometimes think about it like brushing my teeth in that way because I'll be really sad and heavy with everything and someone will ask if I want to go get pizza with them you know and a part of me wants to say no I'm gonna go home and cry and be all alone by myself and just like sitting this and let it out or wallowing it and then the other half me is like Nicole if you go you will feel better once you're there it's like almost always true I know basically always true because yeah I think part of it is that like we get so stuck in our own experience and then just to hear of anybody else's world and like step out and get that perspective for a moment that like oh yeah someone else's other lies and like can that be like a therapeutic measure like I need to ask you how your life is I literally cannot oh man but I think that is part of like the benefit of community is being able to have that perspective and just being that and have them hold you yeah any sort of like embodiment practice or I do a lot of like fun sex with my partner and I'm able to really like channel a lot of different emotions I think in our play that we do together like I can channel because I feel so comfortable with the whole range of like crying to everything with this human that I'm just able to like channel sadness or rage or fury and to have that and to release it in a safe way in ways that well in what ways yeah I mean it sucks that I think about shame in this conversation right yeah if I were to be very honest with you Ray and I would be like oh choking me and putting me in that space and give me that blood choker and really like there is a level of just fury and experience there and that is really strong and powerful and and beautiful within a safe container of someone that I have built a lot of intimacy and time and love with trust yes absolutely so much but at the same time when I think about saying that on a live podcast I'm like oh dear god what did I just confess to you you know what I mean like something that where someone would be like this woman likes to be sure she's insane clinically insane you know what I mean but here I am being all like yeah I guess that is a new thing with the podcast and the website coming out I put out I was like I am a queer kinky yeah non-monogamous sex educator yep just the word kink in there has been making me scared you know what I mean I had completely understand why they would be scary the way things are set up now right you put it out there right and it it can become synonymous to your name mm-hmm you just have to it affects you and the people in your life right in good ways bad ways neutral ways unfair ways yeah but isn't that sad of course it's sad don't we find that sad like when we know Brene Brown is studying shame and talks about the power of shame to absolutely tear you apart isolate you and isolate you and caught and when we know from psychology that isolation feeling separate from the group is what causes psychological distress and so much pain it makes me sad that if this was an off-air conversation I would have said that to you and been like yes yeah and it's something that I am then recording and then I'm like oh god you had to really yeah am I going to say this yeah yeah I mean but it's true like it's just hands down true yes my lived experience I have enjoyed the bad and I never thought that I would say that when it when I when the question was like what how have you changed in the last year I was like I would I thought about it earlier truly I was like a year ago I would not have said I like being choked while having sex with my partner yeah that is not something that would have came out of my mouth in any way shape or capacity It is a, you know, it's close to home that one. It's like preference, you know, in a very, it's preference in a very vulnerable, like, historically private part of your life. Wild. It is, yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. I mean, I understand. I understand why that would be. Right? It shouldn't be.
And I don't think it will, hopefully. Well, I mean, I'll go to tea with anybody, right? It's like, why not?
Right? Like who are you? I think the only people who would be offended by something like that is someone who is uncomfortable with themselves, right? Because if someone says, hey, I am doing this within a safe negotiated container with my partner and who we have built intimacy and have multiple conversations before and after about the creation of this effect that we play with, like. Everyone's cool with this. Right. Yeah, like, yeah, I can't imagine. Well, to me, it's hard for me to put myself in someone's shoes that would be like, yeah, totally.
Yeah, I would have an issue with that. Yeah. It's like two people hanging out. Yeah, exactly. Let them play. They're adults. Totally.
That's the whole perspective right there. Let them play their adults, right? I mean, I know, I know, but it's just, it's the taboo. It's all the things.
There's so much fear in that. But I think what's wild for me is that I didn't think that I liked this. Every time I had watched porn and I would watch something like this, I'd be like, wow, that is aggressive.
And I'm scared and I am not turned on. I agree. Yeah. That I had the exact same experience.
Yeah. I'm just not interested in it. I usually ended up feeling, it didn't look enjoyable. I ended up feeling like almost guilty watching it when, you know, the experience may be a total totally different thing, but yeah, it was not what I thought. And then experiencing it.
Yeah, things are different when you are the person. Yes. Absolutely.
Absolutely. So what is it that changed our minds? Because I just wonder out there how many people would be into this stuff, but because they've only ever seen it in porn and media and not through a loving relationship embodied like person that cares about them and is holding space to also play in this space. Like how many people would actually really like this, but just don't know. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of people that are into a lot of things and it's deemed inappropriate in a lot of spaces. Yeah. When it is the most normal thing for humans to do. Right. We're sort of just built into us. It's something that we all share. Right. I'm thinking about the guest on the show who had mentioned that they had said the phrase, the divine intervention of meeting a kinky person.
That's a divine intervention. But I think it rings true. Yeah. Because once there is any kind of exposure, you know, curiosities may pop up. And once you're curious, you can start learning. Yeah. And yet you may be surprised. Yeah. Exactly.
And it starts slow. I think that's the thing. Right.
Like when I first started exploring with my partner, it wasn't like day one, he was doing that with me. Right. It's something that was built through months and time and time and time spent and negotiations and conversations about it and trying different things and having that ability to communicate about it. So it was like a slow warm up, you know.
Yeah. To establish that safety and trust. I mean, everybody understanding what the other person wants. That takes time, I think.
Yep. I just didn't know that I needed someone to show that to me. Do you know what I mean? Like I didn't know that I needed an actual human to show me that world because again, watching it through media never sparked anything for me, but having it with an actual person changed everything. That's what I just find so interesting. Exposure. Yeah.
Real exposure. Yes. Because I feel like some people were always like, oh, like, what are you into? Well, I watch this porn and I watch that porn and that's what I watch, you know. And it's like I had watched stuff about this like BDSM and King and sort of stuff and never in a million years would I have been like, yeah.
Me neither. I know. So that's why I wonder how many people are sitting at home going like, sex is not that great. I don't know, you know. And then they look at that sort of stuff on porn and they're like, well, yeah, I would never do that. Of course not.
But have never been with someone to just expose them a little bit. To the divine intervention of a kinky person. Just something. And really what it comes down to is just opening up communication and finding out what really turns you on. That's what it comes down to.
It could take so many different forms, right? But it's just the vulnerability like this really does it for me. Well, it's also I feel like the knowing that's the tricky thing is I think that you need someone who knows how to dance.
Like you're asking me like, I want to dance with you and you're coming into it with two people who don't know how to dance the the the beat. The same. Yes.
Yes. And so there are people who are have been doing this dance for years and know this dance and know how to play in this dance and like could teach you really well. But when you step into the arena and if your partner hasn't done any of this, then you're trying to play at a game that you've never been taught. So again, I would still be like, that's not really for me.
I didn't like it. But it's just like you've never had someone show you with experience like the real moves of this dance and where you could go with it. Exposure. I know. I know. Yeah, I mean being a little brave or half and sense. Yeah, I wish.
I mean and education. Oh yeah, totally. Yeah. There's a whole space where if people were more educated about these things, having better access to like good materials, it would change the whole game in general.
Yes. I think people would be more open to playing and explore. And some of that is happening on the internet. Obviously, all things are being, you know, content is always being blocked about sex education.
So that's always still interesting that we're still in 2023 and that's still what we. It's bizarre. Yeah, it's only like the thing. I mean, I get it. You know, I also get it. Did you watch that porn hub documentary? No.
Horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible trigger warning. Really? Yeah, just lots of apparently when things were unverified, anyone could upload with no form of documentation. So the amount of videos of rape and sexual assault and children that were on there was apparently horrendous.
And because it was unverified content, there wasn't any way to like come back to these. Yeah. So I hear this space of like obviously protection and moderation of this content to make sure it's not the atrocities of the sexual world, you know what I mean?
But like also like, man, we need some sex education content. Yes. Maybe it doesn't need to be stuffed in a corner where all that, you know what I mean? It may be with some, some sun in there. Yeah.
It's so dark. Yeah. Yeah.
Exactly. A, that's, that's my whole hope. That is my whole hope for my career because the reality is that our sexual lives are deeply impacted by our relational lives. It's not like it's separate. It's not like you can just teach someone like, here's the sex, here's the tips, here's that, here's this. Like if you do not have a relationship or you can communicate with that person that you're about to do this with. you're gonna have an experience that's not great. And that's just what it is, whether it's a one-time experience or over a long-time relationship. If you cannot communicate with that person, it's not gonna be great.
How could it be? Even if that communication is as simple as, I just wanna fuck and not talk and just have that experience. Like, that is still clear communication. People understand what's going on. And are choosing that.
And if you can't communicate through that, man. So it's just, it's all related. That's the thing, is the relationships and the sex. It's all related. So, I mean, I hope to help people be able to connect with their partners deeper. And have that sort of space to experience all of these things in their relationships.
That's my dream. I mean, a lot of times it is just hearing about it once. And you talk to your partner about it. But I mean, it is a big thing. But it becomes less of a big thing when it's like, instead of one of your friends, like two of your friends at a podcast you're listening to, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Well, that's what I think is interesting. It's the community. It shapes your reality.
When I was in purity culture, you know what reinforced that? All of my friends who are equally saying, oh, I'm waiting and I'm doing this and I'm that and I'm this. Yeah, it's a much different world when I'm going to brunch with my friends now and they're sitting down and asking, oh, so what are your sexual fantasies right now? Very different.
Right now that you're exploring right now. Yeah. And I was like, I don't even know. I don't even think about that right now. And it's a whole different world where you actually dream of the fantasies and do them.
Communicate. Yeah, and you have that space to play and do that. And I've just never been in that space before. That has never been my community. I think you're in the majority. Yeah. I think most people have not for many different reasons. Right, I know.
For many different reasons. Yeah, I know. Yeah, it's hard. Oh, it seems hard. What?
Communicating and being vulnerable in general, I think. Yeah. Yes. Not easy. No. That's one thing I hope to do on this podcast.
I hope so, right? It's interesting when I would listen to podcasts, the sort of relationships I would form with the hosts. Like they start to feel like you're friends in some sort of meta relationship way. I'm always curious to think like, how much personal disclosure have I done on the podcast so that someone who actually has listened to all of it?
Like, would it? Like, how well do they know you? Yeah, like, how well do they know you?
How much do they know, you know? Which sometimes makes me feel like when I do in this podcast, I feel very naked because I've shared a lot of different things. Over a hundred episodes.
But it's over a hundred episodes sprinkled throughout. Like if you listen to all of them, you'll hear little bits and pieces of me that are vulnerable self-disclosure. Some of them I do share more commonly throughout the thing, right? But like, yeah, so I'm always curious how much someone actually knows of me. But I do hope to be vulnerable. So I did cry in that episode that I recorded that will again come out way after this one.
But I did cry. I think that's that second question of what is something that I'm having compassion for myself with? I think it's like the ups and downs right now. Like I said, like I've been really sad, like hearing a lot of this weight. And so I was thinking about going into this recording being like, oh, shit, I'm about to come to the recording and be kind of in like a sad place, actually. Like, I don't want to give that presentation for my two year check-in, you know what I mean?
Like, with the whole everybody I want to be happy and happy. Yeah, but that's not also realistic. I don't think. It's not.
It's not what you feel, also. Yeah, it has some flaws. Yeah. And that's about right. I think that's what most people are working with.
I know. But then I go, do I need my SSRI back? My answer is no. I mean, clinically what I've learned in my training.
You know what I mean? Is that mindfulness is as effective as SSRIs for anxiety and that SSRIs are not effective for mild depression. They're not, they're hands down, not effective for mild depression. I know. And I get furious, Dan, because when I sat down with my psychiatrist, they did not give me that full informed consent. Do you know what I mean? Of, hey, here's a drug. Hey, research also shows mindfulness is as effective.
You can choose one or the other. I was told drug effective. So I say, okay, I do drug.
Yes. I know. What I think is why- You're a doctor. Right, because it's my doctor, exactly.
It's my doctor. Yeah. Yeah, yes.
Yes. I need blood work. Okay, I'll get blood work.
This pill, okay, I guess this pill. I trust you. You're the one who's gone to school to know. Now I'm the one who's going to school to know. So things are changing.
Yeah. I cannot stop a medication and I cannot start one or change the dose, because that is outside of my scope. But I am learning about the different ways to help educate clients on that sort of thing. And so, yeah, when I learn it's not effective for mild depression and anxiety is just as effective, then I don't think that I should go back onto that space. But I will say that I feel like I feel things a lot more now, both sad and happy things. And when I'm sad, it's intense. Like I'll almost cry at just seeing an Instagram video of the stuff that's going on in the world.
Like I'm this close to just bawling down at how fucked up this world is at times. Yeah, sensitive instrument, yeah. Which is a good thing sometimes. And it's an uncomfortable thing most times. It's an uncomfortable thing. Is that what it, just normal living is uncomfortable? Oh my God.
Damn. But it's joyful when it swings and all its different emotions, you know what I mean? And I'm so furious and passionate and I love channeling that. And when I'm sad and I can cry with a client, you know what I mean? Who starts to go into that space of the pain that they've experienced. And I can gently in a controlled way, obviously they're not caretaking for me to be very clear. But when they're sobbing, I might have a little tear that drops down.
You know what I mean? I don't think I would have been able to do that as much on the SSRI, cause it was such like a limited scope of my frame. I've never experienced that. Oh you have done it. How would you, yeah what was your experience? I felt like it was effective. I felt like it helped. I felt like it helped calm me down. And I felt like my soul's strong anxiety.
It didn't calm me down. I just felt like I was a little bit more carefree. Like I'd always use the story where like, oh like, you know, I had, you know, say I had blueberries or something and then I like dropped the blueberries and they fell all across the floor. And usually my brain would be like, oh my God, the blueberries are all across the floor. Like, oh my God, now there's some under the fridge. And like, how did you drop this? Like this is gonna happen in every container that you've ever had before. Like after this is gonna happen again. You know, like that was my brain to like, ha.
Chop the blueberries. Strange. You know, like that's what it felt like. I felt like the difference was.
Like that seems like a drastic. It was great. I was- Change. Yeah, that's- Perception. But here's the thing, placebo effect. We study placebo effects and know that they are real. So the other question is like, how much of that is- What's actually happening?
Yes. How much of that is me telling myself, because I'm on this drug now, I'm gonna respond differently. And so then I do because just mindfulness of like, we teach people, you know, you don't need to fight the emotions, but you can control like where your thoughts go. Like you can control which ones you engage in with and which ones you don't. That is a power that we all have. Yeah.
Pop up intrusive thoughts, you cannot control that, but like you can choose to not engage with it and let that thought go and stop that like thought process. Yeah. So I don't know, it's hard to say. It's hard to say. And for the most part, I've had so many good points of joy and everything I know about the research now, I wouldn't, I would not be on one person.
You would not go back. No. But there are obviously people that it's effective for and like, and need and it is helpful and I'm just not that person. Yeah. I mean, you tried it and you went off it. It was great though. Yeah.
For all that placebo and whatever it was, I did, but I did have points of sadness, obviously. Yeah. I want to be as present as possible and all the things right now. That's great. admirable and brave and I agree yeah that that's my general goal I'm trying to do yeah it's just hard I just feel like Dan I started off today super stoked and I was like this is a great day it's beautiful the sun and then like by the end of the day and granted there's all that stuff with my car repairs going on that are like just stressing me out yeah like bombing yeah yes I am furious I need a kickboxing class I don't want to feel that intensely I understand that but it's all deal with that shit but it's also what gives us our passion you know what I mean yeah I mean when I was depressed I didn't yeah you know anything and that was way fucking worse yeah that was the worst yeah actually yeah so I'll take it I'll take the highs and the lows yeah happily yeah yeah that is it it is better yeah I don't want to try SSR eyes yeah that I guess if I ever felt like things you know like I needed something like that so far I feel okay yeah I try like there be first you know like but it's not shit yeah it is and it's effective for some people yeah yeah it's just prescribed a really high rates now it's it's radical yeah maybe rates that are probably higher than the average person needs I just think that I probably didn't need them you know what I mean like I probably could have never and if I wasn't in a situation where a doctor looked at me and was like yeah this is what you should do like I probably wouldn't have done it otherwise you know I mean okay yeah cuz you just I just figured out like yeah exactly and it's and it I guess it did in some ways but the same time like the psychological experience of going through a straw and like the existential processing afterwards of now this like anytime I'm sad I'm like should I have been back on my SSRIs like a pretty wild ride I think yeah that yeah if I maybe would have got more informed consent about the actual research on how effective it is and the side effects what was the timeline of like you started I mean you get enough I was on them for two and a half years okay yeah you just got off them what like three in July and it's April oh shit so hasn't even been a full year yet do you still feel changes or do you feel like the change of all yeah I do think the biggest change is really just like feeling at an intense level joy pain anger anger like I said earlier in this conversation about the systems and learning all this stuff and hearing all this and yeah but I think anger is good I'm following it I think fury is great I partially I've been thinking that about that a lot too of how like you know how I talked earlier about the DSM saying that female orgasm disorder is upwards of 52 % of women right a gender thing but of women yeah and I was just thinking about fury and rage like for so long of my life I was taught to like cross my legs and be dainty and be like yes of course you know like I'm a woman you know and I've never been taught how to be in fury and rage channel well spring yeah I do think that being able to channel that emotion within yourself changes how you show up in the bedroom because you're able to channel that in the bedroom and you're able to go there and play with that in a fun way safe yes yeah a lot of time people have anger and aggression in this like purely not that's not okay that's scary that's unsafe you know but in a safe place yeah you can channel that kind of thing yeah beautiful mm-hmm it's like being able to channel the emotions and play with them not channel the emotions and abuse with them do you know I mean like I feel like there's such a fine line to say behind saying like oh yeah like channel your anger and use it in your sex life you know what I mean like that someone can immediately take that in such a negative context and be like endorsing abuse or whatever you know what I mean like it's such a sure but it's like being able to do that in a way that is in a safe playful it all comes down to your relationship right right what I'm talking about is sex and when you're using anger to harm other people that is rape it is not sex I'm talking about sex I am talking about something that you are creating with another human with consent and discussion and safer sex negotiations I just I hear my critics I hear the judgment you know anything but I do think it's a powerful way it is yeah it is mm-hmm so wait when you say you hear your critics what do you mean I hear the person who thinks that kink is pathology I hear the person who says that and that there's something wrong or the person handling like anger yeah yeah you're endorsing people who have traumas to you know reenact that in harmful ways and yeah all of like there's a lot of people that think that there's a lot of people that think if you have some sort of fantasy along these lines yeah something's wrong with you yeah although to state clearly the research shows that people who engage in kink are not more likely to have had a sexual assault or you know violence occurred to them than any other people they're not a more traumatic group of people like traumatized group of people even though that's like a very common myth about all of it which is really fascinating it's a lot of stereotypes about it yeah pretty even now exactly like people are talking about sex dungeons yeah I am I'm going I don't know you know what I mean I think it was I think I told you this the first time I did go to one it was so fascinating to see different ages of people yeah yeah like I had never seen you know someone with gray hair having sex I hadn't even looked at that in porn let us never something I even thought about you know like that has never done it for me so it was interesting to be in like an open space for that was just going on in the room and I was like whoa never seen this and then I mean we really think existentially about oh yeah like I'm gonna be my body is one day gonna be that gray and I'm I'm gonna still feel like erotically connected and hopefully hot and sexy when I'm wrinkly and have saggy sit like skin well I still feel yeah able to connect and enjoy yes which I think the answer is yes you know it's just it's gonna be a journey to like you know all of that I'll be around for it we'll see where this shows at 80 I'll go the whole ride with you I will man I always the Titanic well yeah I've heard of Titanic yeah I don't know if you know about this boat yeah but it once was named there is this iceberg let me tell you it did not go well it did not go well but have you seen the movie yeah so you know that moment when they're all like playing the violin yeah and like it's going down I have always felt like that's my life at times like existentially with like the climate change and all the things you know I'm just like hey Dan you want to play a violin until we die yeah this podcast will be here until I die we're just gonna go down and down and wherever it takes us together that's truly my hope I hope I do it until I'm that old and I leave it behind for the world and that would be a beautiful thing yeah yeah I feel like the only other question that was on there I think is yeah the last question is what is one thing you're proud of you have so many things that's the hard part right In that exact moment, that's not where I was going. I was like, wow, should I put on AVC or D? I was really like, what am I wrote over?
You have a lot to be proud of. Yeah. You do. Can I hear it? Cause I am a sucker for adoration in this exact moment right now. Well, I mean, you're crushing in school. Very tough program. You're juggling the podcast, growing continuously.
You have the website. You're climbing harder stuff than you've ever climbed. You have a lead partner.
Let me get there. Yeah. Climbing literal rocks.
Rock in the outdoors, under the sun. You're going to be done. None of that is even talking about like the relational work you've done in this last year, which is not for the faint of heart. You've done a lot of work. You have a lot to be proud of. Yeah.
You've challenged yourself in so many big ways at the same time. Yeah. So I mean, yeah, it makes sense that you're feeling a lot right now. That's a lot of big wins. And yeah, a lot of opportunity for discomfort when you're growing at those rates.
You're just going to be uncomfortable. Yeah. But yeah, tons to be proud of. Clearly. It's true. Yeah.
Yeah. It's been wild. I really do think like stepping into that, like just that whole King nominogamy space has been a wild trip. I think learning to trust myself has been a wild trip.
Trust my intuition. That has been huge, huge, still in my mind. Learning that one really hard. Because I'm so anti-WuWu and the spiritual trauma stuff.
That's not WuWu though. Intuition, just like that gut. I'm trying to believe with you and that's exactly what my mentor said. Like it's WuWu to trust your gut. And I was like, yes.
But does your family have research behind this? Exactly, exactly. Like how does it know? I mean, the psychedelic work is definitely crossing over there. You know, it's a lot of inner healing work. And so I'm learning a lot about helping people to trust that too and facilitate that space. And so it's affecting me too. So yeah, I do have a lot to be proud about. And it just doesn't always feel like that. Yeah, you're in it.
Yeah. And the more people start listening, the more I just want more. Which I feel like is the chronic human condition is that I see this many people tuning in on a global scale. And it's amazing.
And then I'll look at a Snapchat or I'll look at a video that I recorded from last year at this time. And it's grown exponentially, exponential growth. Just like wild. Yeah.
And yet now I look at it right here like, cool. So like next, when do I get to this level? When do I get to that level? When do I get to this? So I think that's why it's been hard.
So I've just, I haven't, it's just hard to like sit and be like, wow, this is really exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you measure from where you started. Yeah. There's a lot of distance there.
There's an insane amount of growth there. Yep. And I'm like, keep being human and I'm going to keep messing up. And learning from that and trying to honor that and be raw about feeling sad and cry and just be a human. Just be a human out there.
It's worked for the best humans I know. It's a secret. Yeah. Yeah. And I did always tell myself like, truly, and I wanted to say to this was that if one person is listening each week, right? Like it's enough, right?
If one person is feeling seen, if one person is feeling supported in their journey through life because I'm tuning in each week with you on Wednesday, at the very least the person you're interviewing. Yeah. Yes, at least one, as long as one person.
When I reached that global scale, I was like, okay, we're definitely getting one. But I mean, but I like that. I like that whole thing. I'm like, just, it's just one, as long as it's one. I feel like the closing question you have to ask me is what's the one thing?
Yeah. What is the one thing that you think people should know is more normal? Yeah, if everything that I said to the last hour wasn't it of like shame around sex, emotions and all of that sort of stuff, I've all, it's different. It's different.
I'm like joking. So the real answer that I wanna say that I feel uncomfortable to say is that like nipple hairs. That is something that I have never had in my life until like hormonal changes that are going through my life. And I have never felt more unfeminine, more gross, more just like completely repulsed by my body, which is radical, because then I'll like Google and it's like, oh, it's normal, you know?
And I'm like interesting. But it's just something that I'd never, I actually had been at a wedding in a bride's meet discussion and one of the moms had mentioned it. And it was like, oh, no one ever told me about that growing up. And then that was, I didn't have that at the time. I was like nipple hairs, how weird.
Who has that, you know what I mean? And then I got to my current age and I was like, whoa, that's interesting. And I have felt so much shame. That's originally I think why this question started. I was like, what's that thing that you're Yahoo answering?
That's like my age. I don't know if you did that. Yeah, it was to ask G's in my generation.
Okay, like is this normal? Yeah, that was core. Yeah, so that's what I started with.
But then I was also as you were thinking about that, I was like, wow, I've never said this to someone who identifies as a man first off. So that's a whole thing. That is a whole thing. We've got a lot of fear here.
A lot of firsts. Totally. So I was like, okay, here we go. But also I was like, that's not deep, Nicole. Give me something deep.
Give me something deep. But if I were to go deep way, I would say that it's just that all the emotions are normal because I've been feeling all of them. And I think all of them are crucial to be able to be present, to be present with your people, to be...
Absolutely. Yeah, really human is that full range of all of it. Yeah, and that people have varying intensities. I am intense in a great way, but also in a difficult way.
Yeah, I feel that. That's how I released a podcast two years ago during my finals week. Who in their right mind when we're making this anniversary episode and I'm editing this, this is literally during my finals week.
Who does that? I know. I was procrastinating. I didn't want to study for my exams. So I was like, you know what I could do instead? That's starting up podcast.
I did and I was like, fuck it, I'm going to release this because this is what I want to obsess about instead of my exams. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it turned out well, I think.
Totally, yeah. And I'm about to, I've got a four point out, so people can try and push me all they want, but I do what I got to do. And then I play with the rest.
You do. And... Yeah. Well, thank you for holding space for me for the conversation. Of course.
Yeah. Thank you for having me. Mm-hmm. As always. Yeah. Yeah. If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast and head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
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