[00:00:00] Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole.
On today's episode, we have Jasper join us for another relationship anarchy research conversation. Together we talk about embracing our interconnectedness, moving at the speed of trust. And finding security in your community. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice, supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear listener, I'm so so so excited to share this episode with you.
You know, dear listener, that these relationship anarchist episodes are some of my favorite episodes of the podcast. I learn So much through every single one of these conversations and it is such a joy to share this with you in my last episode episode 200, you know, I talked a lot about the political nature of relationship anarchy and the lack of language and access to resources on relationship anarchy for our community and so every time that I get to make one of these I am so so so honored to be creating resources for this movement to be a part of this movement and that Listeners from around the world, trust me, to come onto this show.
Like, what an honor, dear listener. Uh, yeah. If you are a relationship anarchist and you're passionate about this like me and you want to have a conversation with me, or if you just want to submit your written answers to these questions, There is a link in the show notes below to my website where I have been collecting all of the relationship anarchy data and opening up these conversations with you, dear listeners.
So if you've been waiting, now is the time to dive in and I am so excited to get to hear your voice and your thoughts on relationship anarchy.
Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources at modernanarchypodcast. com, linked in the show notes below. And I want to say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long term sustainability of the podcast.
podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people, so thank you. If you want to join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, then you can head on over to patreon. com slash modern anarchy podcast, also linked in the show notes below. And with that, dear listener, Please know that I am sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.
The first question that I ask each guest is, how would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners?
[00:04:01] Jasper: Well, my name is Jasper Brown, and I use here they pronouns, and I am an artist and activist living in New England.
[00:04:11] Nicole: Mm hmm. Welcome to the show. I'm delighted to have you today. Thank you so much. Yeah.
Relationship anarchy. Like I was saying before we dove into the recording. These are my favorite conversations that I've been having on the podcast. And so I'm really excited to see where our collective consciousness go and what sort of conversation we create today.
[00:04:33] Jasper: I'm excited to, as I said earlier, I do listen to this podcast.
And so I'm like kind of having like, uh, um, when you like see a famous actress or something and you're just like, this person is so cool. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I'm kind of, I'm like kind of like sweating a lot right now. So I'm glad this is like only my shoulders up and just my voice for the podcast.
[00:04:58] Nicole: I appreciate that because like I said again earlier, I always go, God, is my content still good out there?
And you know, anymore, you know, the more you change involve, you look back on your past self and you're like, I didn't know shit. You know what I mean? So it's, I'm really happy to hear that. It's still like resonating and feeling good for people. So that's awesome and helpful for my own insecure parts as well.
So thank you.
[00:05:19] Jasper: Yeah, as an artist, I don't look back at any of my old writing or any of my poetry and I'm just like, no, this, this was written by a past Jasper, and they don't need to see what the hell that was, so I understand.
[00:05:32] Nicole: Exactly, exactly. Well, the first question of the research is, what is relationship anarchy?
[00:05:44] Jasper: I feel like I've had to answer that question for people so often, and I feel like it changes based on who I'm talking to, and I, because you know what relationship anarchy is, and a lot of the people who come on to this podcast also know what it is. and have nuances around it. I often describe it as a commitment to the freedom of relating and connecting to the life around me and the commitment to the joy and change that come along with it.
So, human and other than human life, like plants even sometimes. I'm like, yeah I'm in a relationship with burdock right now because I'm learning how to heal my gut. So, like, stuff like that. It's also a commitment to healing. Uh, which I wasn't expecting, but it's really a big part of relationship anarchy as well.
[00:06:37] Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I heard the words joy that stuck out to me change and healing. Yeah. I'm curious if you want to, you know, choose which word to unpack on or all of them. I'd love to hear a little bit more about how that's shown up for you.
[00:06:56] Jasper: Yeah, sure. I discovered relationship anarchy on the coattails of a breakup from a, the longest relationship I've ever been in, which in the grand scheme of things really isn't that long at all.
[00:07:10] Nicole: Mm.
[00:07:10] Jasper: But. They left and said, I'm going to go practice what I was practicing before I was dating you monogamously, which was relationship anarchy. And I was like, insecure about that, but not admitting to myself that I was feeling insecure or why I was feeling insecure. And so I just kind of was like, fuck you.
Monogamy is the best. Like, I'm going to be happier than you. And then we just didn't talk for like three months because we were friends before this too. So it was hard, I think, for me to. Like, separate the two, which is, again, where the healing, I think, came in, as well as the change. And then they passed me the book, Polysecure, by Jessica Fern.
And I started reading it, and was like, Oh, look at all these attachment issues I've got. Look at all these things that I need to do to heal myself.
[00:08:00] Nicole: Yeah. And, uh, It's overwhelming, right? And so that started the journey. Ha ha ha ha! Yeah, I feel that. I feel that it opened the Pandora's box.
[00:08:12] Jasper: Yeah, yeah, and I'm curious for you, too, like, what was that, like, oof moment for you, just to be like, oh, yeah, this is not just, you know, liberating myself, but also, like, this is going to touch some things that are, like, still open wounds, and I need to kind of Sit with that, you know,
[00:08:32] Nicole: um, like literally again this morning, I just don't know when it's gonna end.
You know what I mean? Like, I'm still like having conversations with like different people in my world. I'm like, Oh, well, I could have done better there. There's more to do. Okay. You know, like Some of the stuff that I originally started with, I think, is a little bit more smooth over the years, but then it's like every day, I'm just like, okay, another relationship thing to kind of unpack and still learn from.
[00:09:00] Jasper: Right. It's a, it's a long and winding road is what I'm recognizing and that I thought at first maybe relationship anarchy was like an on ramp to something, you know, just like, oh yeah, it's an on ramp to like a more liberated lifestyle. And I was like, oh no, I'm literally going to be putting. Like a plug in the leak of my massive ship of struggle bus or whatever I'm just gonna give like there's like one impact you know that's like coming having water come in but then there's like as you notice like the pressure starting to build on other sides of the ship as it's sinking you see like a little Polls getting posted and you're like, oh shoot.
I have so much to work on.
[00:09:38] Nicole: Right? Absolutely. I think that's why I like to call it a practice, right? It can also be an identity like anything, but I also like to use the word practice because something, I am a learning every day, right? And I think a lot of what I see with my clients, regardless of which relationship style you practice is, how do we hold the balance of.
Particularly us as relationship anarchists, when we're looking through this lens of where can I grow? Where can I expand? How can I work through the systems of oppression that are constantly in our relationships? That is a continual reflection, like we're saying. And also in that, how do we celebrate? All the growth we have already done, because sometimes we keep like looking up on the climb of like, Oh shit, there's still so much more and we forget like how far off the ground we've already come, you know, it's like that balance of the yes and as you continue this.
[00:10:33] Jasper: Absolutely. Yeah, no, that's, that's like healing itself is like such a complex process and I'm reading liberated to the bone by Susan Raphael right now and the first step is like, Yeah. Often, to stop the violence because you can't keep, you can't heal unless the violence has been stopped and violence is coming from all directions, all the time.
So like, how do you come to terms with that while also Not denying like pleasure and joy and the scariness of change and knowing that like potentially on the other side there is Healing to be had even if it isn't that deep soulful healing that like our society like desperately needs
[00:11:19] Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah, if it was like a deep yes, and right like a deep yes And like I see you the climb and I'm off the ground and we'll keep going and hopefully in the process, you know The like building any muscle, right?
It's uncomfortable when you're lifting the weight and quite literally that practice of building muscle, like, you know, is physiologically ripping apart the muscle first so that it comes back stronger. Right. So I think a little bit of that sort of perspective of, Ooh, I can feel this stretch happening and it is a little uncomfortable, but I know that the pleasure is there and that we'll continually need to move our bodies.
Right. As we age, as we move towards that, right. We'll continually do that sort of yes. And to it all, probably.
[00:12:08] Jasper: Absolutely. Yeah. Such a great way to put it and it's getting me even to think a lot about like even what I just said which is the continual Process
[00:12:21] Nicole: yeah, and it's hard because a lot of this stuff feels unconscious until it is you know what I mean?
And you're just kind of like, you're feeling like, I'm doing my best. I know so much. And then like a new little light bulb goes off and you're like, Oh no. And for me, and for me, that's been the beauty of like community to be able to have community that often, you know, like we were stuck in our own lens.
And so to be able to have someone else see the other parts of us and like gently point them out, whether that's a therapist, a family member, a friend. friend, right? It's really just having a different perspective to like see some of those blinder spots that often like we can't even see in ourselves.
[00:13:01] Jasper: Absolutely. Yeah, community like is such a huge part of relationship anarchy. I feel like because you can only do so much healing on your own or internal healing because practicing relationship anarchy requires you to engage with community and to engage with other people to understand like the larger structure of things which feels like weird and new agey to say it that way but that's kind of like not to make it sound that way but Yeah, I like that part of relationship anarchy, it's not just me and this one other person and we're just like in our own little fantasy world, like, living in a honeymoon forever and having children.
It's, and continuing that cycle, it's, it's messy and complex and also pleasurable in many ways.
[00:13:52] Nicole: Sure. Yeah. Like at the heart of it is understanding interconnectedness, that we are all interconnected to different spaces, but at bare minimum, we all live on the same planet. Right? Like, we all live on the same planet, and all of our collective small choices are having a collective large impact, right?
Like, at minimum, we can start with that one, which I'm, you know, you were talking about plants and other things. I think even that aspect of relationship anarchy is important. Like, what's our connection to the Earth? This thing that we all share collectively, right? And of course, then we can get even smaller into like smaller groups and groups and groups and groups into that.
And for me, it is that understanding or again, that practice of trying to understand of like, how can I move through this with that sort of lens of interconnectedness and mutual aid and community care. And I think that's also where People who practice sexual fidelity are absolutely a part of this group.
It's not like you have to be having sex with multiple people. It's about, do you have this perspective to community and what it means to deconstruct the power structures that are absolutely in the way of our interconnectedness. If you're here, you're here. I don't care who you're fucking, right? Like, that is not the most important part of it.
I have fun fucking lots of people, but it doesn't have to be your joy, right? Like.
[00:15:08] Jasper: Exactly. It's so wild. It's like, it's so wild to me that, like, we denied ourself this chance for interconnectedness for so long. And I won't lie, like, practicing relationship anarchy, like, has Reopened a very spiritual door for me that had been closed for so long because suddenly I was like Sitting with plants because I'm in herbalism school right now So I've been like sitting with plants and one of our practices is to meditate with the plants and like when we take from them We say okay, what do you need?
Oftentimes you have to sit and you have to wait for the answer But like if I didn't have a relationship with them or it wasn't trying to have a relationship with them Then I wouldn't be doing Stuff like that and translates to people to so
[00:15:59] Nicole: absolutely yeah, that reciprocity is what I'm hearing right?
Slowing down to have that reciprocity.
[00:16:05] Jasper: Yeah, no need to go a blinding speed all the time.
[00:16:09] Nicole: Yes. Which thinking about the next question. Yeah. How do you practice relationship anarchy? I would love to hear a little bit more You know, you're already giving us some examples of slowing down to being with the plants that you are taking from and asking, you know What are some other ways that?
Relationship anarchy is practiced for you
[00:16:30] Jasper: Yeah, I mentioned at one point, like, the Dean Spade episode, uh, with you, that best encompasses, like, actually how I practice in real life, because I don't really believe in romance in the typical myth standpoint. I often have run into situations, even, this kind of, like, touches on difficulties a little bit, but, like, run into situations with previous people in my life where they talk about really romantic Things and I'm like I will do this romantic thing with you that is romantic by definition But I would also do it with people who might have been classified as like platonic people in my life And so those the platonic and romantic and I put quotes around both of those like often just blend for me
And as a result The sexual and, like, more physically intimate parts that come into my life, um, when I practice tend to be just, like, one of the many ways that I might express affection and care for somebody in my community, you know, like, I might have sex with somebody that I'm never gonna live with.
[00:17:37] Nicole: Mm hmm.
[00:17:38] Jasper: And I might never have sex with someone that, like, I want to spend the rest of my life with. Right. You know, in terms of, like In terms of like, you know, building community, like, living on the same land, or, you know, the typical like, rural queer dream of just like, living on a commune or whatever, you know.
Classic. Classic, yeah. Uh, so, so that's like often how I practice it, and yeah, it's moving at the speed of trust, um. And knowing that, like, I can say, I say I love you to people who I would consider platonic friends or what would be canonically considered platonic friends. Um, and I haven't said I love you to some people that I date.
I haven't known them as long as people who I've been in relationship with on what is considered a platonic level. So, yeah. That's kind of a lens into how
[00:18:26] Nicole: sure. Beautiful. Yeah. I'd love to hear more about moving at the speed of trust.
[00:18:35] Jasper: Yeah. So that's a that's a phrase that a friend of mine. Someone who's very dear to me said at one point, because in the classic queer fashion, we met immediately, we're like, yeah, we have crushes on each other, or just like did it have like, there was like this weird like energy and we couldn't quite figure out what it was.
And so the first thing we did was like, okay, cool, we'll just go on a date. And then we went on a couple of dates and the two of us were just like, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm. Like this is not like, and that was more for me because like, I'm a hilariously like, I come off as like, super practical looking and just like, I like know what I'm doing.
And then when it comes to the situation, I'm like an absolute klutz. Um, and like kind of a dunce cap. Uh, so we both stepped back and we're like, okay, we need to Slow down. Recognize what's happening here. And that's when they use the phrase speed of trust. And now they're somebody who's been in my life for almost two years now, and we grow together.
In a way that, like, we say I love you to each other, we don't, like, have sex, we don't sleep together, we don't, like, spend time in that way, they have multiple partners, but, like, we do know that there is love and care for each other there, and that was because we slowed down. And let trust like take the wheel and have that build.
[00:20:06] Nicole: So yeah,
[00:20:07] Jasper: it's like the best explanation. I think I have for that.
[00:20:09] Nicole: Sure. Sure. Yeah, I find, you know, through doing my dissertation on relationship anarchy. I wrote about the ways that. You know, of course, anything can be messy, but in the most ideal context of relationship anarchy, it takes significant, uh, communication skills, significant insight, and like really relational skills to navigate this.
And I think that's what I'm hearing, right? Is this space of, wow, there is some energy between the two of us. We don't really know exactly what that means. And I love that, uh, That space holding that space for that. Because I think that's often what I hear of people, particularly in this world, as I met someone, I don't know what it means.
There's some excitement. I'm not sure yet. Right. And so we're all trying to like figure it out, but what does it mean to actually just take a step back? I'm not sure yet. We're living into it, right? And then the ability to communicate with each other in such a way that we don't have certain expectations of this is what it means for us to be a meaningful relationship and rather to collaboratively discuss that together and be in that flow state of change and that takes high.
Levels of insight and communication. Okay. Yeah, yeah. You want to say more to that?
[00:21:30] Jasper: Yeah. Just because like we're taught to move so fast all the time and to be in this go, go, go, go, go world. And like, admittedly, like back in 2021. I had, from like at least a professional standpoint, this was like also something that radically shifted me, is like I had a mental breakdown.
I was working like a really, really, really, really intense job through the pandemic, did really well, got promoted a bunch of times, and then crashed and burned. And I was like, shoot, one, why did I crash and burn? There were multiple reasons for that. And then two, I was like, what is up with the speed? Why do we need to go this fast?
And like trying to remind myself and other facets of my life that like, Speed, it does not necessarily equal quality or like, you know, levels of success or there's no, it's like, it's not, in fact, it might even be inversely proportional and not directly proportional. So, um, yeah, that's primarily.
[00:22:28] Nicole: It's so hard though.
I think for me, I find myself wanting security often. I do feel like. The deeper I get into more interconnected community, the more security I feel in myself and in my community. But I want security so deeply. I'm like, wait, who is the person that's going to ride all of the years with me? Like, stay, stay.
And I think part of that, too, is reflecting on the ways that particularly as a queer person, as someone who steps so deeply into this, there is a pretty deep disconnect between my biological family and myself. We do communicate, but. There are ways where they cannot see me, they cannot understand, and they cannot support me.
And so what that means is I am left without community and trying to find people that are going to ride with me. And so I've always kind of held that of how that. That disconnect from my biological family has created a paradigm where I think I grasp much harder on to particularly in the past romantic relationships and a solo one right where now I'm trying to like find more sources of water, um, to have into my life.
that I can have a deeper trust both with myself and with the longevity of the community that I've built and then therefore not fall so deeply into the psychedelic trip that is NRE, but like, man, new relationship energy feels good. Yeah,
[00:23:52] Jasper: exactly. Yeah. Cause like, as you said, like. Like, we're taught that like, and I mean, I come from a family where like, I'm not like that far removed.
Like I know all the people who immigrated here, like I watched in real time and the end of white assimilation at the time, a lot of the people who came over weren't considered white and were bigoted against in like some really awful ways. So they hard turned. And assimilated themselves and came, obviously, without the anger, the grief, the abuse, all of that, that kind of flows into the decision to be white and to be seen as white.
And I feel like, in that process, there was also the theme of, like, blood is thicker than water, your family is your only thing, your family is here, your family is here. And like, like most people have Mediterranean descent as myself, like, we're taught very early on, like, this is the only way you're going to have children, you're going to, like, continue for us.
There's no other thing than family. And when I got out of my family's, like, clutches, if you will, because I still obviously communicate with them similar to you, but, um, when I got out of the clutch, I was like, well, this person feels really comfortable and safe to me. Why can't I? Love them in the same way.
And also like, what is love, actually? And also, it's exciting to ask all these questions. Sure. And so, yeah, I think you bring up a good point of like, you know, we're, we're hardwired for security in a lot of ways. And security is great, but it's like, not, unfortunately, in this world right now, not guaranteed.
Um, and like making peace with that and also recognizing that people can offer you security still too. And you can also find security in yourself. Which is also something we're not taught. So, I don't know. There's like a hole.
[00:25:49] Nicole: Sure.
[00:25:50] Jasper: Grab a hole there.
[00:25:52] Nicole: Right, right, right. And the only constant is change.
Exactly, yeah. I just like, always, I'm like, fuck. You know what I mean? Just when you think you've figured it out, it's like, here's a new thing. Here we go. You know, and again, there is some level of, Things getting more and more smooth over time, I think in terms of security. But the only thing that is inevitable is change, right?
Like even if you have a relationship that is going to ride with you all the way through to the end of your life, you're going to go through different evolutions of, I fucking hope so, right? Like, I hope you change over the, I hope you keep learning, right? Like, could you imagine being the same, like. Jesus, you know, so like, I hope, right, so no matter what, it's just, yeah, it's hard.
And so I think that's a lot of the, the, um, security piece. And I'm, I'm remembering the conversation with David Cooley, who was Jessica Fern's life partner and had written another book or a part of Polywise. And he was talking about how, um, it's important to see someone in conflict. Before you have that level of building the security, right?
Like, have you had a difficult disagreement with this person to really see how they hold that space? And I, I was really touched by that conversation and it really changed how I looked at relationships. I'm still learning to look at it through that lens of like, okay, how can I? Withhold my desire to, like, you haul right now in a very clear way, um, and wait until we've been in some point of conflict and then been like, okay, like, how do we mend this?
How do we move forward? Is this someone that has the, like, skills and the relational insight to be able to be someone that I actually want to navigate more changes with? Right?
[00:27:32] Jasper: Oh, absolutely. Damn, like, that's like, this bit has been like this, like, this current relationship that I'm in right now. I met somebody who is like, already very dear to me, but like, the two of us are very like, okay, we cannot jump into this, because both of us have had histories of jumping into things, and we're like, okay, so things we need to do before we understand, like, where we're at, like, we need to travel together.
We need to, like, we need to, like, be in a stressful situation together, which often, like, can be looped into travel. We need to, like, help each other through something that's, like, a grief process. Like, we need to, and, like, when both of us have mental health issues, like, how are we showing up for each other?
How are other people in our lives showing up for us? How are we handling, like, People coming into each other's lives that like, you know, we already might have like root intimacy with because we've like been with that person longer or might have known that person longer, even if it isn't in the same way, because all relationships are different.
All connections are different fundamentally. So like, yeah, that's all so, so, so important before like jumping in and seeing if this person is going to be like, I don't want to use the phrase ride or die, but like, you know, someone who you can like ride in the car with. Um, for long hours at a time,
[00:28:48] Nicole: right?
Absolutely. Absolutely. And then I think the ways that our minds are always creating narratives of the story of who we are and who we're connecting with, right? And so when we meet someone new, it's almost like a black box where we get to project all of our favorite narratives onto who that could be, right?
And then you either get like pieces along the way that either like, you know, meet that narrative. Reconstruct that narrative and then trying to have this like very, you know, of course live the life, live the pleasure, have fun, but also a little bit of diligence to notice like, okay, here's the narrative I'm telling myself.
Is this actually reality or am I just like sucked in some sort of like rose colored glasses of what's going on, you know, and trying to like, when people tell you this is where I'm at, not going, oh, that's okay. I'll help them get somewhere else. I'd be like, no, like this is where they're at. This is what they said.
Take it at face value. Like, damn, that's a hard one for me. I'm always like, I can help. Don't worry.
[00:29:52] Jasper: My sister always says I dated, I dated projects. Like I dated like people who needed to like, have a fixer uppers basically. I would be like, Oh yeah. Like I need this. I'm, they're like a hot mess in some way and I'm like, and I would take it on and be like, okay, it's my hot mess now. Let's go.
[00:30:07] Nicole: Right.
[00:30:08] Jasper: And I'd be like, okay, right.
No, I'm a hot mess too. They're a hot mess. Their problems are not my problems. I got to focus on like whatever the fuck my brain is doing. And you know, while there's things that are going on in my life that are chaos and you know, they have to figure themselves out and like figure out what they can ask me for help for and vice versa.
And yeah, I can't take on everybody else's issues. For sure.
[00:30:29] Nicole: Especially as a therapist, I think I struggle with that. I'm like, I can help. I can do this.
[00:30:34] Jasper: Most on the mental health, on the mental health. So that's how I get, I get paid to do like peer support stuff.
[00:30:39] Nicole: Cool.
[00:30:40] Jasper: Um, so like, yeah, oftentimes people come to me like, fix me.
And I'm like, that's not what I do, first off.
[00:30:46] Nicole: But somehow when I'm dating, I'm like, I can do that, you know? It's like, ah, damn it, damn it, Nicole, not again. You know? At least I'm getting to a point as of today. I think I'm getting to a point you're like, asking like, when that point of like waking up or whatever it is, it's like still happening today.
I'm like, journaling today. Like, okay, we can't fix people, like, except where they're at, you know? What I was telling myself was like, okay, how can I listen to the, my somatic response? How can I listen to my energetic response? When I was studying in like feminist psychology, they would talk about relationships, good relationships, having five good things.
And I forget what all five of them are, but one of my favorite ones is zest, this energy for life. And so how can I watch because in those dynamics where I am thinking like, Oh, I can help this person change. Like they're emotionally unavailable. I can do that. Hmm. You know, like what's end up, you know, what ends up happening is as you live into that, like You start to feel your energy drain and drain, you're like, wow, like I'm kind of like, I'm tired.
Like we're having these long conversations and I'm like still damn, you know? And so how can I be in tune with, okay, these relationships over here are bringing me that life and I'm feeling good and I'm feeling seen and all of this. And then rather than saying something's wrong with me, which, of course, I don't want to say that we're always going to look at our other relationships, we do have to look at ourselves and be like, what's going on with ourselves, but also like, uh, particularly depending on your identity, some of us tend to do that more than others, right?
Like, It's not always us. It can be the dynamics around you. And so to be a little bit critical about that and say, okay, this dynamic is actually, you know, bringing parts of myself out that I don't often see it is draining me. And that doesn't necessarily have to mean we're going to cut them out of our lives.
There obviously is a point where if someone is harming you, that is, you know, you have to protect yourself, but the rest of it, it's like, uh, thinking about it like a metaphor of the sun. Right. Like When the sun's too close, it burns everything. When it's too far, it's cold. So, like, where is the right spot for in our ecosystem.
[00:32:51] Jasper: Totally for this person. Yeah, yeah. And that's such a hard thing to try to figure out. Like, I don't know about you, but I, when I'm finding that someone Really wants to attach to me, like really attach, like be really, really, really, really, really like needy, needy, needy. And I say needy not necessarily in like the negative connotation because whenever I hear that word it makes me kind of like, you know, crunch up a little bit inside.
Um, I'm using it as in like they just like really feel magnetized and like want some of your energy because They might, you know, be lacking that in some way or like blocked off from their own energy in some way. Like I immediately put up my own shields. I'm like you out here, like, and that's something that I know I'm working on because like seeing that attachment or that desire for attachment, like, again, I'm kind of going into difficulties in some ways, like, again, I find that I have like, I have like My giant, like, stone wall that I generally put in front of people who, like, are, you know, really into feeling that energy of, like, loveliness, and I'm like, okay, like, you need to be, like, out here, like, a little bit before I can, like, let you in slowly,
um, which can be disarming for some people, you know,
[00:34:02] Nicole: totally.
[00:34:04] Jasper: But, yeah.
[00:34:05] Nicole: Right. And I'm often the opposite, right? Like, if we have a leaning of, like, interest or avoidance, like, right? Like, I'm definitely the opposite. And we're like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, you know? Also,
[00:34:15] Jasper: I think it's person dependent, too, you know? Like, sometimes, like, I find someone so cool, and I'm like, Me.
[00:34:21] Nicole: Yes.
[00:34:23] Jasper: Other times I'm just like, I'm too cool for you. What are you talking about? I'm like freaking out. Yes.
[00:34:28] Nicole: I think that's part of the discussion of attachment that needs to be updated is like, Hey, It's not inherent to you, you might have a tendency, I might have a love language I prefer, but I do all five, right, and I have all of the anxious, avoidant, insecure, like the whole thing is up in there, depends on who it is, and so holding more of that, like, and that goes back to that other part of the energy and the situation, right, is it's like, it's gonna bring out different parts of you, depending on different people, and so it's not necessarily always there.
Definitively you as much as it might be the dynamics. And then we can obviously pull that out to a larger discussion of like selfhood of, of this very Western concept of selfhood that could be deconstructed into a, wow, you're always interconnected. So even this concept of self I have right now is a reflection of all of my relationships, probably the five closest to me.
Right. And then like out from there and all of that. Right. So it's never this point of like individuality, but the yes. And of like addressing the relationships. and yourself in that dance of the interconnectedness.
[00:35:29] Jasper: Yeah. It's just, it's so, yeah, it just, it constantly blows my mind. Like, you think it's going to be like a black and white scenario.
Like I studied math in college. So like, I've been like, oh yeah, like everything has an answer. I'm going to circle at the end, which in reality, that's just not how this works. So, um, that's like kind of a concept I'm learning too.
[00:35:47] Nicole: Totally. Yeah. I wrote a guide on jealousy that I'll be publishing on my website and I'm like, I can't give people like an A plus B plus C equals blank because that is literally the least reality of everything that we're talking about the best thing I can do is give people really good questions.
Okay, yeah, here's some questions, just like, think about it for yourself. Here's some more questions.
[00:36:11] Jasper: Leave it there.
[00:36:12] Nicole: Yeah, just think, just think, I don't have the answers because this is way too complex of a math question, you know. Um, and, and I think even like. That act of taking space from someone who does reach out really hard for attachment, in some ways that makes sense, right?
Because I think that we do the same thing whether it's in sexual romantic question mark, how do we define that, right? Relationships, I always get locked in where like I'm trying to like talk about things and so it's helpful to say the word that I don't actually believe in. The Strict box of, but in those paradigms, you know, we have like, we can experience people who try to build attachment really quickly.
And I think in friendship, we, we feel the same way. Like when someone reaches out, I was like, I want to talk to you constantly. Hey, how are you? Like every day you're like, Hey, like, don't you have community to like, where, what is going on that you don't have other, like, right. And so, so I think it kind of makes sense that we'd have a little bit of a skepticalness of someone who does that so strongly.
Cause it's maybe indicative of not having a full community. Of people that are also supporting them. So their need for water right in the desert makes sense to be like, I'm so thirsty. Right. But it's also like, whoa, okay. I'm kind of concerned that I'm now only going going to be your only source of water.
That does not seem like a healthy dynamic.
[00:37:25] Jasper: Oh, absolutely. And that's like something that like, at least historically, like people that I've attracted to, to me, like I come in and I'm just like , like, you know, being all like distracted and whatever, and like energetic. Bouncy ball people who usually are like I've historically attracted have been people who have been like I don't have community
[00:37:44] Nicole: Yeah,
[00:37:45] Jasper: and so now I've like started like recognizing that pattern at least in myself and I've been saying like, okay How can I gently?
Help this person not even help this person. That's the wrong word. But like how can I gently? Demonstrate to this person potentially that like community is like such a lovely and bubbly thing and like help them I keep saying the word help like sorry I can't think of another word but like help guide them towards like ways to like, you know Start putting their roots into other places and like, you know Getting that getting that nourishment and getting that water and like obviously still like having their roots system like sure, you know getting water for me too if they desire to still once they've like, you know, I Poked their heads out and like kind of saw some other things.
But yeah, that's something that like, that's like a conversation that I've like only recently started to have with people that I connect with where I noticed that pattern. But before I would just be like, yeah, of course I'll fulfill all your needs. Like I'm a people pleaser. That's what I love to do.
Socialized as a woman, you know, I was like told that everybody's needs are now my needs too, or like my desire to solve.
[00:38:52] Nicole: Mm hmm. I feel that one. Yes. That's usually where I say, oh, I climb on Sundays. I climb on Sundays in the morning. If you want to come, come join. You know, like, hey, I've got a community here.
Like, let's climb. Like, this is what I do, you know? So, like, Finding the spaces where we can have community that we can invite people to, which like I'm feeling some like, Ooh, like church. That's what people like it, like do, right? Like in an ideal world where we don't have this like patriarchal problematic concept of religion, right?
It's more like, Hey, like come join my community. Let's be together and support each other. Right? So, so I see a lot of that connection.
[00:39:31] Jasper: Yeah. I have like a group of people I do herb brunch with, so like we. They talk about herbs during brunch, and it's like, not related at all.
[00:39:39] Nicole: Come join the herb brunch, right?
Come join the climbing. Like, we've got the spaces, right? Yeah, absolutely.
[00:39:45] Jasper: Yeah.
[00:39:46] Nicole: And the next question is, why do you practice relationship anarchy?
[00:39:53] Jasper: Yeah, um, so I kind of touched on this earlier, but to like, I started because I was hurting and confused and yeah, relationship anarchy kind of just like swooped in and was like, Oh, yes, like, here's a way for you to explore all of this in a way that is like also very liberating.
And so politically, you know, I had already been there. I was already like, okay, like, fuck this system. We need universal health care. Like, also, like, why do we have a president like seems kind of arbitrary, like he's not doing anything anyway. Transcribed by https: Um, and going through, like, all of those processes as well.
But then I found that, wow, okay, everything hurts actually. Um, and my body is carrying generations of pain and grief, of violence, of assimilation, of like, you know, violence that like, you know, white people have done across generations in this country. Like, I was carrying a lot of Pain and other places that had nothing to do with relationship anarchy but I realized that relationship anarchy was like becoming like a vehicle for me to like keep asking myself those questions and keep Returning to being like whoa shit like there's a lot of Stuff stored in this body that needs to be released.
There's a lot of stuff stored collectively in these communities that needs to be released. And again, it's like a vehicle. And it's just one way for me to like look at all of it and kind of hold it. Um, so.
[00:41:16] Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Because all of that gets in our way of loving connection.
[00:41:22] Jasper: Yeah, exactly. You can't, you can't love somebody.
I identified as asexual for a really long time because like, I just couldn't like, for multiple reasons, couldn't like, you know, for one point, like, couldn't accept my queerness. Like, I couldn't accept that, like, it was just like a huge, like, moment of realizing, realizing that this is like, wow, I was going to have to live and exist.
[00:41:47] Nicole: Right, right, right. Relationship to self. Right. So how do we examine the power structures that have impacted our relationship to self, right? And then the ways that then, yeah, you're talking about the realities of living into that in community, right? So then relationships with community and then, yeah, where do we draw the line of what our community is, right?
Again, we think about climate change, right? Like, okay. Oh, shit. Okay. Okay.
[00:42:12] Jasper: So, like, a big looming specter out in the horizon that's coming closer.
[00:42:17] Nicole: Yeah, right, exactly. Future generations, right, that are going to live because, like, oh, fun fact, I'm gonna die, you're gonna die, you know, and it's like, okay, so, like, what is my responsibility as a community member?
Right. On all these different levels. Yeah. A practice that is what I know is just a practice of humility, right? When people call you out for stuff and then be like, okay, I am learning, I am learning how to better do this every single day. But I equally feel connected to that. That reason of, of it's, it's hard.
Like you said, at the very beginning of. People who don't know what relationship anarchy means to get to this level of the point of the conversation when you're like, I just don't know where relationship anarchy ends. Yeah, it's everywhere. Right, because they're like, what do you mean, what is it? And I'm like, well, I just, I don't know how to like, now put it back into a smaller box, you know?
[00:43:20] Jasper: And do you think that your reasons for why have just like, evolved and changed because of all this work that you like, find yourself doing? Or is it like, Oh, well, now I'm practicing it because not only because of these reasons that I started out, but like now there's like so much more nuance in the way that I'm like looking at the world.
And now I'm like finding myself having new why's to add to the list or to change even, you know,
[00:43:44] Nicole: yeah, yeah. Yes, absolutely. All caps. Absolutely. Yes. Right. I think when I first heard of it, it was through like, it wasn't through the political anarchy route. It was definitely through the route of, uh, non monogamy and learning about relationships and learning about the problems with hierarchy and how that can hurt people and community.
And then so feeling, feeling very drawn to this world of these deeper, you know, analyses of how do we do this. better. And then when you start living into that though, it's like, Whoa, what does that actually look like? Got it. Confused learning, confused learning. Right. And then, so yeah, during my dissertation where I interviewed very similar to this relationship anarchists and then having the podcast space where I get to talk to people like you and have these different perspectives and being in connection with relationship anarchists in my community.
Yeah, it is absolutely continually changed what it means for me to be in this space, right? And so, yes, I'm very excited too, because when I think about the longevity of that, of okay, like, this is where I'm running right now. I can't even imagine in 10 years time, like, with this level of dedication to.
community with this level of dedication to self reflection and our interconnectedness, I, I feel excited. I feel like I'm going to be even cooler than I am right now, you know?
[00:45:08] Jasper: Yeah. I can't wait to grow old in some ways. I'm just like, I'm just going to be like, this like chill little hobbit person who just like, Smokes weed all the time and like has conversations with people about this and like it's constantly learning still, you know Just still learning still growing and like that's like something that I think I admire about some of the elders in my life Is that like I know somebody who's 87 and was like I'm a street medic so I was like helping teach like people how to Use water bottles to like spray tear gas out of people's eyes.
And she was just like, yeah. And I was like, in like the 1960s, like riots against that. And she goes off about it. And I'm like, and here you are, like sitting here with like a twerp like me, like with a squeezy bottle, like learning how to squirt things out of people's eyes where you probably were doing it before.
And like, didn't have like, you just Did it because like you knew what to do and like it's so people like that just like are still learning still like Communicating still like and she's out there tabling for like, you know abolition And other things like that. I'm just like damn like people are people are Still learning up until almost their like 10th decade, like what is happening?
[00:46:30] Nicole: Absolutely. And that's where I start to feel a little bit of jealousy where I'm like, God, I wish that was my like grandmother, like, I can't even imagine how cool I would have been if that was like where I started. I'm like, damn, I had to climb a lot more since.
But yeah, like seeing that interconnectedness, the journey, or even like something as simple as like carrying Narcan at a festival, right? Like, hey, like, this is my community. We're all at a concert here. Like, I'm not taking Molly tonight. But what does it mean to be able to have that for the person who does and has that overdose?
Like, that's my community. Like, That feels like relationship anarchy to me. And then it definitely feels like relationship anarchy to me when you get stalked through the metal detector and they're like, what is this? I'm like, fuck, you know, like, I'm just trying to keep someone safe tonight. Like, Oh, you know,
[00:47:24] Jasper: yeah.
Damn. And like, that just reminds me of like stories, like, cause of the work that I do, like I often I'm working with the unhoused community and someone wanted to get clean. And this guy, like, said to her as I was bringing her to the ER to go to the, um, place to, uh, like, start the process of getting clean.
He said to me, you can't carry this bag in here. And I said, Oh, well, she doesn't have a house. Like, I don't care. She can't have this bag. So I like, dumped all the immediate things out of the bag. Started shoving them into my pockets, shoved them into her pockets, put the, fold it up the bag, put it into my back pocket and just walked through and was like, Wow.
Not carrying anything. What are you gonna do about it? And he just stared at me and I was like, bye. Um, but like, as a result though, like, I would not, like, if, if this were me earlier in life. Like I would have just been like, okay, yeah, you're right. Sorry, sir. And like kind of shuffled out carrying the bag of like her entire livelihood, you know, just being like, well, might not see her again.
So hopefully she's got like, hopefully she's got gum. Hopefully she's got other things.
But like now I'm like at a point where I'm just like, okay, actually, fuck you. I'm gonna figure out a way around this, because this person like has the fundamental right to live and have access to her belongings. So yeah, I don't know, stuff like that.
[00:48:37] Nicole: Absolutely. Practicing love, right?
[00:48:40] Jasper: Exactly.
[00:48:41] Nicole: I know, yeah. Yeah,
[00:48:43] Jasper: it's good. This is all love and, like, it's just expressed in different ways.
[00:48:47] Nicole: Yep. That's why I really like the idea of, uh, practicing love as, a book title for it. I, I haven't gotten to the point yet of writing it all out, but I'm, I, I see the vision in my head and so it's coming together.
And that kind of leads us into our next question, which is how does relationship anarchy impact your practice of intimacy?
[00:49:11] Jasper: Yeah, no, this was a hard question. This was a hard question for me to answer because I feel like I'm still learning because I have a lot of blocks around intimacy. I feel especially like physical intimacy.
Um, I've gotten to the point where, like, I allow hugs now, but, like, as a kid, like, I was forced, you know, to, like, kiss the aunts and, like, you know, give hugs to the uncles and, like, my great grandmother with her, like, You know, really smelly lipstick would come in and pucker up and like, you know, kiss me on the head and stuff like that and things that, like, I was told that I needed to give, like, that was, like, not mine to give.
Uh, so shit like that, like, I'm still working on where I'm like, okay, yeah, I can be, like, loose and happy when I'm having sex, which, like, you know, I've come a long way and I think part of it was, like, transness, but, like, that was something. How much, like, I shy away from, like, just generally, like, these wounds and these traumas and relationship anarchy is, like, having me, like, look at them in the face and be like, yeah, that was fucked up.
You should have been allowed to say, like, no, I don't feel like kissing my great grandmother today. Like, I'll do it when I feel ready or I'll do it when it feels right. And you know what? It's mine to sit with if she dies before I'm ready for that. But, you know, that was something that It was just, like, again, like, culturally, like, these people deserve your affection, and, uh, you don't have a choice in giving it.
I think in that way, it's been a struggle, but, like, intimacy in other ways, like, again, like, risking, like, having getting tackled by security at, like, EDR, like, and just shoving things into my pockets. I'm like, you know what, fuck you, what are you actually gonna do? Like, like, I care about this person, like, she's gonna die on the street if you don't let me in with her right now kind of thing.
Um, and, uh, so, like, that kind of intimacy, like, I've just been, like, suddenly, that's, I didn't say suddenly, it's taken years of just to be like, you know what? This is what's gonna happen. Like, we're gonna, we're gonna tough it out. We're gonna push through and we're gonna do it and, like, care for these people radically and deeply, even if, like, I might not see them again, kind of thing.
[00:51:13] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:51:14] Jasper: Um, Yeah, it's, like, totally, like, made my friendships, like, so much deeper in a way that, like, yeah, like, you probably recognize this too, like, the, the possibilities, like, now of intimacy are endless. I could, like, yeah, we could have sex with our friends or, you know, we could just be, like, the type of person who just, like, goes on trips together or just plants a garden, you know, there's, like, so many options that, like, we don't have to feel shamed for anymore.
[00:51:41] Nicole: Um, Uh, expansiveness of intimacy, right? Like feeling into the intimacy that is maybe even deeper than sexual intimacy, right? And being able to find out, you know, what works for the relationships that you're in and the unique relationships, each one's going to be different and feeling into that rather than a mode of, okay, if we do this.
Thing that means we're at this level of importance, right? That level of deconstruction feels like it's brought so much, uh, saturation of color to my life, right? Where you're just like, wow, I, I feel more of this, that shirt. This is a human being that is connecting with me and not just a friend. This is a human being that is connecting and sharing.
I don't, I like to not use words like spending, you know, capitalism sharing time with me sharing, you know, I watched that. I literally crossed it out in my journal this morning. I was like, not spending dammit. Sharing,
[00:52:41] Jasper: sharing all the time, like invest in friendships, you know, I'm like, what am I investing in?
Like, what, how would I say like planting or like cultivating, cultivating friendships, you know?
[00:52:49] Nicole: Right, exactly. Exactly. Right. And so I'm hearing that. Yeah. You know, again, acknowledging the power structures, the past dynamics and family where it was, you know, this is your expectation is that you're going to give your body.
To your family, which was like pinning me into my like Christian background of you're going to give your body to your husband, right? And how all of these, I know, I know, you know, and so like unlearning that. And again, this is where I say very clearly for me. Monogamy created that same paradigm because I was the only space where we had made this commitment of giving sex to each other, which meant sure, my partner could go masturbate if they needed that sexual experience, which in some cultures, right, is not okay.
And when I was Christian, that wouldn't have been okay. But outside of that context, they could do that. But beyond that, I was the person who was supposed to be the source of this experience. So then that meant if I don't want it, I'm kind of letting this the mess down. Fuck. And I had no idea what kind of weight.
That felt like until I was in a space with multiple people, and I said, I don't want to have that type of sex, go have it with somebody else. I don't want to have sex at all, go have that with somebody else, and then still be in loving deep connection, and not have to be fearful that because we're not doing this thing, that means I'm not meaningful, that I'm not this or that to this, oh my God, what a psychedelic trip.
I didn't even know I was having, you know, until you got there and you're like, Oh God. Oh, whoa.
[00:54:30] Jasper: Yeah. It was wild, honestly. And like, for myself, like, I know that like, you know, sexual intimacy has definitely like, you know, changed and become something like way more. beautiful than like a task like at one point I was like yeah I have to do this because like again like monogamous like it didn't even occur to me to be like yeah go masturbate have fun like sure here's my toy enjoy yourself um like I'm gonna go and like color Enjoy it, but like, now, like, to be able to just be like, yeah, go off, have fun, I'm gonna like, well, I'll still be like, I'll still love you and I'll still like, you know, sleep next to you at night and like, we can have sleepovers and pancakes for dinner and all this other fun stuff that's like, you know, deep and connecting in our own right.
But, yeah, it's the freedom to do what you want with your body, which, like, is something I think I'm still, like, in shock about, you know, to be like, yeah, my body's to do what I want to do with it, and so is, like, the other people around me, like, they're humans with their bodies, and they can do what they want with their bodies as well.
[00:55:35] Nicole: Sure, sure.
[00:55:36] Jasper: Um, as long as there's, like, obviously, like, you know, consent and understanding that, like, harm can happen and, you know, the structure is set up to prevent said things from, like, you know, escalating to a point where, like, it's no longer, like, pleasurable to anybody or safe.
Um, but, like, and that's, like, my inner, like, my inner, like, little street medic coming out and being like, remember safety!
Um, you know, but, like, it's also true, though, like, you know, people can take total advantage of this. Like, I've seen it happen. Like, I'm sure you have, too. It's, like, Yeah, I hate to, like, you know, pigeonhole it, but it's usually the cis white dudes who are like, I'm just doing this so I can, like, lay with as many people as I want and have no accountability whatsoever, and it's like, okay.
Anarchy is, like, the responsibility of choice. Like, that's literally what anarchy is, at least according to Arsakia Le Guin. So, like, you're choosing to do something and Therefore, you also have the accountability on the other side.
[00:56:32] Nicole: Right, right. Community self governance.
[00:56:35] Jasper: Mm hmm.
[00:56:37] Nicole: It's like all about the interconnectedness.
So that's where I think I appreciate this distinction of, you know, we don't have to draw rules of who is and who isn't here, right? Because that's You know, who are we to say that? But if there's any part that would say you're here, you're not here, it's community. And if you're not on board with community, I might say you belong under libertarianism.
And that's okay. And I can say that. That's okay. Right? Like, that's okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. You can go and do your thing.
[00:57:07] Jasper: Yeah. And that's the thing. Like, I always say to people, like, hey, if you want to like Fuck around and do what you want and have it be, like, on your own terms and do your own thing.
That's relationship libertarianism and I am so happy for you. I don't want to be a part of it, like I'm happy to be like, you know, friendly to you and like, you know, kind to you, but I'm not engaging with that kind of that kind of relationship structure or relationship practice.
[00:57:37] Nicole: Right, right. Yes, kind way, a kind way of doing that.
And I think I've, I've talked on like past relationship anarchist conversations about, you know, language is only so helpful as it is helpful for us, right? And so we are constantly in a space of developing new language. And so, you know, a lot of people who say, Oh, I can practice monogamy and relationship anarchy.
It's like, yes. And also what if we got to a new space of language, right? Because the idea of monogamy, that word inherently means. One person for life. Very few of us in our current cultural context, that's, there are people who do that, but very few of us are practicing one sexual person for life. What does it mean when you do watch porn?
What does it mean? Does that count? I don't know.
[00:58:23] Jasper: Yeah, because those are people on the other side,
[00:58:26] Nicole: right? These are all deep questions, but everyone gets to decide for their own their own journey, right? And so then I was talking about this space of Oh, what about sexual fidelity and sexual self governance, right?
So the idea of okay, like I could be Have a active fidelity with one person, or I could be in a throuple and we're closed, right? Something that could kind of connotate what we're talking about here of having sexual fidelity, right? And that practice versus self governance. And the more I sat with it, I was like, so you might hear me when I say self governance is a community self governance, but I also, I'm worried that like, you're saying the people who take it in a certain way would be like, Oh, I'm a relationship and arrogance.
Practicing self governance. Fuck you, I don't gotta use a condom. Like, I'd be like, oh, no, you know what I'm saying? I feel like I need to say now, like, more like community self governance. Like, you know, which is what we sometimes use in the anarchist, like, philosophy, right? So maybe that's like, it's sexual.
Fidelity or community self governance, right? Of like, hey, understand that your actions have consequences for the whole community, right? Because I am afraid of someone running with that and being like, I practice self governance sexually. Get out of here. I'm like, oh no, what did I, what did I give them?
[00:59:37] Jasper: You know, like.
Like the person who like makes up, who makes up new rules to like a board game that everybody's like. Consented to play together and they're like, well, I've decided that the red pieces mean that I get double the points But you don't get double the points when you get the red pieces. So, uh, ha ha ha but that's what self governance is You're just like no.
No, no, like we all collectively agree that if you get the red pieces We all get double points. Okay.
[01:00:00] Nicole: Yes Absolutely And I think what i've lived into the pain of that which will go into the difficulty so I guess i'll share one of mine first is just like What level of detail do we tell the other people?
Yes! Oh my gosh. Right? That's like, yeah.
[01:00:20] Jasper: That's something we're struggling right now, like, with the person that I'm, one of the people that I'm dating right now, like, in the canonical sense of dating. We're like, what do we call each other? I was like, do I call you my girlfriend? Because, like, to outside, like, that's what it looks like.
Sure. We're dating and, like, being, like, cute and snuggly with each other and, like, very outwardly affectionate and, like, I go home to your house and we sleep together and we, like, you know, spend multiple days together at a time and talk about living together. Yeah. We use partner but, like, we're not, like, partner in the way that like we're like people just assume that like we're married or like moving towards marriage, but we're not so we're like What do we what do we do person friend?
We were trying to figure out like, how do you so at work? We just decided like, okay. Yeah, we use the word partner, boyfriend, girlfriend interchangeably just because like people don't Get that. And then once like, yeah, and then once you know, we're in spaces with people who understand relationship energy, you're like, yeah, okay, yeah, this is like, someone that's like, really close to me.
And they're a friend of mine. And everybody understands that the word friends, like, can have multiple connotations and multiple like, ways of expression.
[01:01:27] Nicole: Exactly.
[01:01:28] Jasper: So it's been that's been hard.
[01:01:30] Nicole: Oh, sure. And hopefully fun. Like that part. Yeah. Where it's like, cool, like, we want to use boyfriend, girlfriend, like, what does that mean to us?
What does partner mean to us? What do any of these words mean to us? And then, yeah, trying to understand the political nature of it all, because you're right. If I do say, oh, me and my friends are having a beach day hangout versus me and my two partners, I have now outed myself in a very different way.
Right. So there is a political nature to this language game, you know, so like making those choices and, and then, yeah, being able to enjoy the ride of like, Hey, what does partner mean to you? And then the fun, the fun journey that is when that word means two different things to the two of you. Right. Which is perpetual, like, what does it mean when we have this?
That's why, like, when I got keys to one of my partner's apartment, I like asked them like. What does it mean that I have keys to your apartment? Yeah, I think it's just
[01:02:27] Jasper: something that's changed in our relationship to have allowed this trust to have
been built.
[01:02:32] Nicole: I find that cute. Like, that's cute. Like, I like that.
Like, tell me what it means, you know? And like, they're like, I have a distrust of words. Like, can we let the jester speak? And I'm like, no. We can't actually. I want to know. I want to know.
[01:02:47] Jasper: That's so good. That's so good. Yeah, it's something, it's something too that like, uh, and like not to like move it over to difficulties, but like I also have found that like that like totally is where like I find the, the biggest struggles coming in within relationship to other people.
Um, Because I've been in relationships where, like, I describe my connections to others as a constellation.
[01:03:13] Nicole: Yeah, sure.
[01:03:13] Jasper: Every star is important, and without one of those stars, like, a shape isn't formed, a particular shape isn't formed. And that's, like, you know, so everybody has, like, importance in my life, and one of the people that I was dating at the time was like, Well, I hope I'm your biggest, brightest star.
[01:03:27] Nicole: Mm.
[01:03:28] Jasper: And I was like, Oh, shit, I don't think we've been on the same page, um, about, like, how this is working. Because, like, you are important to me, like, you are in the constellation, and we have been, like, you know, adding you into this constellation for, like, the last, like, six to eight months of, like, of our lives.
Like, it's, you're so important to me.
[01:03:51] Nicole: Yeah.
[01:03:51] Jasper: And also, like You're not, like, as, you're not brighter than anybody else. In fact, no one is brighter than anybody else because everybody has a role to play. And similarly, like, I have a role to play in other people's lives just as much as, like, other people have a role to play in mine.
And I remember being like, okay, we need to have, like, a sit down conversation. And then we just realized, like, hey, we're actually practicing relationship anarchy very differently.
And, like, that doesn't mean we can't be, like, we can't, like, You know, be in relationship to each other. We just might have to be in relationship to each other differently, um, which ended up being like a very adult conversation because they also practice relationship energy.
[01:04:29] Nicole: We love that.
[01:04:30] Jasper: But like, it was just definitely or like, you know. Non monogamy, like they were realizing, I think, that like relationship anarchy as a, as a whole might not necessarily have been for them because they wanted a primary partner of some kind.
But, um, it was definitely like one of those conversations where like, oh yeah, okay, like we need to like change our language around this and like still like respect and love each other for, you know, our differences and continue forward in being in community.
And that worked out, like, really well.
[01:05:03] Nicole: Great. Again, let's go back to the, like, the dissertation finding. Strong communication skills and emotional insight, right? Like, these are the things, like, okay, this is what I thought we were doing. Great. We're on slightly different agendas here. We both still really care for each other.
You're awesome. You're awesome. We're on slightly different paths. Cool. Yeah. Wow.
[01:05:24] Jasper: Yeah.
[01:05:25] Nicole: What a world compared to What a world.
[01:05:26] Jasper: Yeah.
[01:05:27] Nicole: A few out of here. You saw, right? Like the, whoa. Yeah. very different space that we're in.
[01:05:34] Jasper: Yeah. Very different. And I think, yeah. I don't know if this is something that resonates with you too, but like from the outside for people who don't practice relationship anarchy and are very like, you know, woven into Western society's monogamous framework, I often get the The vibe of that meme where you have like what my mom thinks I do what my friends think I do what I actually do and it's like all the different like images of like how people do things and so it's often not correcting people because that was a very virgo thing for me to say, I'm sorry.
But correcting people and be like, Oh, hey, you know, like, it's not always like this like it can be like this. And, you know, Guiding them towards, like, a better vision, and it's usually, like, the confused looks of, like, then it's the next meme of, like, Wono on a ride or, like, staring off into space. It's, like, the math equations, like, blast across her face or something.
Yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure.
[01:06:34] Nicole: Yeah, you want to hear a horror story?
[01:06:37] Jasper: Yeah, sure, I love horror stories.
[01:06:38] Nicole: Yeah, I, um One of my partners was connecting with someone, um, they had like dated in the past and then reconnected and we're thinking about dating again and are like, you know, open, expansive way of dating and they, um, they went on a couple of dates and then they met me at a party.
And we talked in, like, a circle, I swear to God, for, like, three minutes about the most surface level conversations of, like, food and, like, where they're from and all this stuff. And the next day, they called up my partner and said, like, I don't think I could do non monogamy because of Nicole. I don't like relationship anarchists and people who systematize relationships like this, so I'm not interested in that.
And yeah, so I talk about like the assumptions of the meme and I was like, dude, this person doesn't even know me like this person doesn't even know me. I have no idea what concepts of relationship anarchy you are thinking of. And then also when I was talking about like consent of sharing things, this is something that my partner didn't share with me for months later and they had like redated and came back and I was like, dude, like you should have told me from day one that she didn't want to date you because of.
Me. Not, she didn't want to date you because of non monogamy, which is what I was working on. Was, oh, okay. She's struggling with non monogamy. It's like, no. She's struggling with non monogamy because I'm a relationship anarchist. I think we can also deconstruct that a little bit deeper into, like, fears? Just put it in nicely?
[01:08:12] Jasper: Yeah, what's with your insecurities?
[01:08:14] Nicole: I know, I don't want to say it, but it's like, ah, you know?
[01:08:19] Jasper: Yeah,
[01:08:19] Nicole: so I think, yeah,
[01:08:20] Jasper: it's, it's tough, like, I think that's what I don't know about you, like about jealousy and stuff like that. But I feel like once I realized that, like, there was like a love, there was like a relationship between jealousy and insecurity, I was like, cool, my brain is just trying to protect me and cooking up a bunch of random shit to make me feel this particular way.
And once I realized that, Um, I was like, suddenly, dating multiple, like, that part of dating multiple people became so much, like, easier for me to deal with. I still obviously get those twinges of, like, this person leaves me forever and goes off with this other person and goes off into the sunset and never wants to see me again.
Like, obviously, like, those, like, abandonment thoughts, like, come in. Right. But. I'm now able to re-contextualize them and be like, Ooh, like, where did that come from? Like, I thought we worked on this already. Sure. Like, where is this resurfacing from? How are we, like, uh, why are we suddenly like, you know, wanting to clutch this person closer and like not able to like, think about relationship anarchy in this way?
Um, and like vice versa, like, yeah, just like sitting with that myself and like, you know, letting the other person know like, Hey, I'm experiencing some jealousy. Right. And. You don't have anything to do about this, right? You don't have to do anything,
[01:09:40] Nicole: right?
[01:09:41] Jasper: I just need to sit with myself and maybe go talk to another friend and process it with other people.
[01:09:47] Nicole: Yeah,
[01:09:48] Jasper: but yeah, like as a result, like, I feel like whenever I hear those horror stories, I'm like, Oh, no. Right? Exactly.
[01:09:57] Nicole: And then you look at your partner and you're like, Why didn't that read as a horror story for you? And you wanted to date her again? I was like, Oh, no. You know, like, absolutely. Because I think it's an indication.
I like to think about it as indications of, uh, Insecurities and desires, right? Like it's also an indication of like, I want this, I want that. And often we're not really sure it's usually, I feel like a mix of both. Right. And so like trying to get clarity on that. And so like often, like you're saying, coming to it with curiosity, rather than being like, this is where I'm at.
And it's definitive. It's like, okay, I'm having this reaction, like what insecurities are coming up, what desires are coming up? How can I take a deep breath? Right. And then communicate that to the people around me. And I think it's important that like. Jealousy is not going to go away. It's our relationship to it is going to change and particularly on the desire space, even if you process all of the insecurities, the desire thing is going to come up, right?
And so I try to think about it more of like a bad trip on bad trip, quote, quote, on psychedelics, right? Like there is no like. Never having a bad trip again. I'm such a badass, like, psychonaut who's done this so many times that, like, you can't challenge me, right? It's like, no, in the wrong set and setting, you are going to have a challenging experience.
And so how can we look at our mindset of maybe insecurities or the setting of an emotionally unavailable partner and be like, hey, that's actually where this is coming from. Let's get clear here, right? So rather than this, like, I'll never have a bad trip again. It's like, what's our relationship to it?
[01:11:25] Jasper: Yeah, and it's also to like jealousy is a biological response. Like it's popping up to be like, we want you to survive. Uh, how are we going to like, you know, cook that like chemical brain soup up there to like, you know, stir up that pot of like you moving towards the thing, like at your base need needing to survive.
Um, like this person like provides you a lot of safety and security and joy. And suddenly, you know, that, like, is at risk in your biological body.
[01:11:57] Nicole: Yeah. Right. Perceived risk, potentially, right? Right, right, right. Yes. And I know we're talking about a lot of the difficulties of relationship anarchy, so I'd be curious to hear about some of the joys in your life.
[01:12:11] Jasper: Sure. Like, for me, it's like, for the first time in my life, I've like, Felt saturated and like my cup is filled and sometimes like, you know overfilled But like it's a great thing to feel overfilled on in a way like sometimes I'm stressed about them I'm like no damn like so many people like love me and I love so many other people and this feels so good and like we're not remembering that like yeah, like I also can then like By extension like recognize and love myself more and that's like always obviously an ever evolving and like ever Growing thing it's like trying to you know, make space to love oneself as well as like the community around you but Yeah, like, it's been so joyful to, like, you know, stumble into, like, beautiful relationships with other people because of that ability to be open and to, you know, experience, like, no one telling me what I can do with my body or what I can do with, like, my love or how to spend my time.
With other people, which I feel like was, like, inherent to the way of monogamy, like, similarly to you, the Christian, like, version of monogamy and the way it worked, you know, it's like, you should only be, like, loving your partner and, like, emotional cheating and.
[01:13:39] Nicole: Yeah,
[01:13:40] Jasper: I think a whole other can of worms.
[01:13:42] Nicole: Totally, very happy to be far from the world of emotional cheating. Whoa. Oh my god. Oh my god. You can only have one emotional connection. Whoa. That is usually where as a therapist, when someone says that I do, I try to not like a fine. Things is healthy or unhealthy because I think that it was particularly in that power dynamic.
It's really important that you don't do that. But when I hear that someone is only allowed to have an emotional connection with one person, I do come in and say, that does not sound healthy. I have, you know, like, I can't, I can't just sit at that and be like, okay, that's fine. That's not, no. No. At minimum, family should be an emotional connection.
Folks, I got minimum chosen by like, I'm Jesus, you know, but I think I'm preaching to the choir here. So I'll just get out of that sandbox and like, just let it let it let it ride.
[01:14:32] Jasper: No, it's fine. I'm just smiling. So I'm just like, I can't believe like, if emotional cheating were like described to me earlier in life, I would have been like a serial cheater.
Because I just would just have a big mouth. So I would just like talk to anybody about anything like if You know, provoked at the right time and not read any social news and be like, well, let me tell you what's going on in my life. Oh, wow. Actually, that person isn't the person I'm dating and but they're still giving me support and help and that's so sweet.
Yeah, so. Anyway, yeah, it's wild.
[01:15:05] Nicole: Right, right. And I think that's paired in a world of literally only having one emotional connection and often that that level of emotional connection is then what is uh, connected to sex, right? Because no one thinks about emotional cheating with like a family member. I mean, like, oh yeah, like, you know, like, no, it's in this world of, oh, if you're this connected, it also means that you're fucking this.
person, right? And so then that level of all of that, and then we get somewhere around here, you know, and we're like, okay, interesting. So I think it's, it's, uh, and then also, yeah, to like, just hold space for like you. And I feel like all of the listeners who are tuning in to like, just feel that level of joy that you're speaking to that saturation of having so many deep connections and the liberty of your body, right.
To be able to connect and live your life in community self governance. Right. I mean, that is so powerful. And I hope that people can feel that in your voice. I hope people can feel that in my voice when I talk about it and truly be like moved by that. Truly be like, what are, what are these people doing?
Cause like, I'm curious, they sound happy. Like what, like what is, yeah. Right. Yeah.
[01:16:08] Jasper: Like feed people's curiosity.
[01:16:09] Nicole: Yeah.
[01:16:10] Jasper: That's always so, that's always what I strive to do. Like in addition to A relationship anarchy, like, helping me with a lot of, you know, this interpersonal stuff, and also with, like, personal, like, self growth and all of the things that we've been discussing over the last, um, hour or so, like, also play is so big, like, I have become so much more of a playful and goofy person, or, like, letting myself feel that again, feel like a child again, Like, curious.
Yeah, it's just so much fun and things I never would have thought myself, like, capable of doing as an adult, like, I find myself returning to that space and it's lovely.
[01:16:57] Nicole: Yeah, learning to play in your relationships rather than the ball and chain, right? What a world! What a world! Who knew? Who knew they could actually feel good?
Whoa! And the final question we have is, uh, What do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy?
[01:17:19] Jasper: Well, I think about, I will admit I did at one point come out to my parents. I came out to my parents like the night before my sister's wedding and both of them were like, Very drunk. So this was like an interesting, an interesting scenario. My dad, for context, like, actually has, not only does he have a cousin who's gay, but he has a cousin who has a husband and a girlfriend.
[01:17:43] Nicole: Okay.
[01:17:43] Jasper: So, like, he's had, like, examples of that. For the most part. He was like, yeah, okay. Well that's cool, right? Yeah. Yeah. And my mom was just looked at me and she's like, won't you be sad? Whoa. And I was like, uh, what? ? She's like, won't you be sad? And, and I was trying to like, you know, feel into that and, and I think she was thinking that like about relationship anarchy being that kind of thing where you just like have sex with a bunch of people.
And then, like, don't have that intimacy on top of it. Sure. And I was, like, thinking to myself, like, I actually have, in my life, I actually have less hookup sex with people. Now that I'm practicing relationship anarchy, which has been interesting, but also like reminding me of like, shit, like I'm choosing to like engage with this as like a way to like, add like another layer or spiciness to intimacy that I already have separate from, you know, this practice and like, in some ways, for some people, it's like, Okay.
Things that we do for play and other ways. It's like a way that we express intimacy on like a completely different level and like it depends on if I'm like quote unquote dating the person versus not dating the person and like when people hear relationship anarchy, like for example, like my parents when I was describing it, they were just like, yeah, it's like about You know, this one layer of things and it's like not wanting commitment.
It's like being afraid of commitment. It's being like wanting to have sex with like a bunch of people. And like, no, no, no, it's not that at all. It's just like a fun, as you said, it's a practice. It's a fundamental way of just like, you know, moving through the world and living and listening to your body and listening to other people's bodies and plugging into that collective.
And yeah, it's wild.
[01:19:35] Nicole: So beautifully said, right. So beautifully said. And I hope that the world can learn to see more of that through examples like this conversation, through taking the time to like really slow down and be present with your parents, right. And that, and, and really share a little bit of your world with them, right.
Those are brave acts that you're doing. I'm doing with. You know, all of these conversations and the people in our world who don't understand us, who judge us, right. To really, to really slow down and as much as we can safely, right. Like,
[01:20:06] Jasper: yeah,
[01:20:06] Nicole: they're what this world is to us and, and, and open up some of their perspectives.
[01:20:12] Jasper: For sure. Yeah, this has been so lovely. I appreciate you so much, Nicole. This has been so fun.
[01:20:18] Nicole: Yes, of course. I want to hold a little bit of space, too, in our joy, in our connection, just to check in and see if there are any other things you want to share with the listener. And so I'm going to take that deep breath.
And yeah, if there's any last words you have, you can share them, otherwise I can guide us towards a closing question. Sure, um, I just looked at my notes. Yeah?
[01:20:46] Jasper: And I wrote underneath, like, in a bullet point, like, what I wish people knew, and I wrote underneath, Not a free pass to be a shithead with no accountability.
[01:20:56] Nicole: Yes.
That's a direct way to say it, but I think, yeah, I was like, wow.
[01:21:00] Jasper: Okay.
[01:21:02] Nicole: No, but it's true. It's true. We talked about that, right? Yeah,
[01:21:06] Jasper: exactly. Oh, and there was this quote too. Um, that I thought of you, uh, about, uh, we had in my book group last night, uh, to get the rewards of being loved, you must submit to the mortifying ordeal of being known.
I don't know who said it, but that was just something that we opened our book group with and I also figured that could be something you can splice in if you decided.
[01:21:30] Nicole: Yeah, I like it right here where it belongs, right? I think that just goes back to at least what I'm thinking about is Yeah, like these moments where, you know, I am doing my best.
I'm trying. And then someone will be like, Hey, like that wasn't helpful. And you're like, okay, great. Like that's some of the vulnerability of being known is getting those feedbacks of like loving, you know, perspectives and, um, yeah, being able to open up when people do judge us. Right. And to like, Stand in what we know to be true, right?
Like that's a lot of vulnerability of being known. And so I, I really appreciate you taking that, that step today to come onto the podcast. Trust me to have this conversation with all the listeners from around the world that are tuning in, right? Who are mostly relationship anarchists. So you're in good community, but still it's a big act of vulnerability to really trust me and come into the space.
So I want to say thank you.
[01:22:23] Jasper: Yeah, thank you so much. This is great. And like, thank you for making my first podcast interview, like, feel so easy and natural.
[01:22:31] Nicole: So, hell yeah.
[01:22:33] Jasper: Absolutely.
[01:22:34] Nicole: Absolutely. Happy to be your first. Yeah. Well, with that, I will ask you the last final question that I ask everyone on the podcast.
And that is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
[01:22:50] Jasper: Um, I don't know. I talk to myself a lot. I feel like that's something I wish people knew was more normal. Sometimes like when I'm like talking to myself, people are like, are you talking to me? And I'm like, no. And then they just give me this look like, what are you, what are you doing?
And I'm like, uh, just talking, maybe talking to the plants too, because plants also like to hear us and hear our voices. Like they're attuned to us just as much as we're attuned to them. So like talking to non human. Other than human entities is totally normal and fine. And I feel like most people do it to like pets.
But
[01:23:27] Nicole: I was gonna say, do you know how much I talked to fat cat? Hi, lover, what do you need? Oh, this? Oh, okay. You know, like, it's just like, it might also be because I live alone with her, right? So then, you know, like, alone is relative, right? I have different partners over every night, you know, so pretty much though.
So it's like, what is alone, but like relatively so it's me. In fact, so absolutely. And I are always talking and yeah, like, what does it mean to, to be in more deeper connection and a reflection of everything that we've talked about, right. To be able to have that conversation with yourself, whether it's out loud, whether it's in a journal, right.
Or into these deeper spaces of connection with other people, other beings, right. I think holding more. And I think it's really important to have that space for that, that intimacy and that connection is, is deeply interconnected to relationship anarchy.
[01:24:18] Jasper: Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, I think that would be probably what I would choose.
[01:24:23] Nicole: Yeah. Great. Well, it has been such a joy to have you on the podcast. And so I want to say thank you again for joining me and sharing with all of the listeners today.
[01:24:33] Jasper: Yeah. Thank you, Nicole. I really appreciated this again. And yeah, I look forward to, well, I don't usually like listening back to my voice, but you know, uh, I will probably listen to your other, I'll listen to your other episodes.
[01:24:45] Nicole: Great. Great. I love that for you. Yeah. It's so awesome. I understand that feeling.
[01:24:51] Jasper: It must be hard having a podcast and be like, I can't listen to anything when I put it out because I've spent like so many hours editing it. Well, for sure.
[01:24:58] Nicole: I edit it every week myself, so I hear it every time, and then once I've published it, it's like a one time listen, and then we're gone.
Like the past, past goodbye, yeah. But
[01:25:08] Jasper: yeah, thank you for joining us today. It's been so fun. Of course. Yeah, I hope you have a good one, and stay cool. It's hot here in Vermont.
[01:25:14] Nicole: If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to to modernanarchypodcast.
com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
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