Nicole: First, if you could just start with how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Jasmine: Um, so hi friends. My name is Jasmine Prince Judy Herher pronouns. I am a diversity, equity and inclusion practitioner. I'm an educator. I'm also a coach and a business owner. Um, and so those are the things I do to finance my life.
If I were to describe myself outside of what I do, I would say that. I am a traveler. I am purger. I am. If I could put professional hype woman on my resume, I would. Um, cause that's what I love to do. And I think I just all around like wanna be a light in the world. And so that's a little bit about me.
Mm-hmm.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. What does it mean to be a light in the world for you?
Jasmine: Oh man. I think it means really just, I think about like leaving people better than you found them. Mm-hmm. And that's in any encounter, right? So that's seeing someone in the grocery store or target to your friends and your family, to the places where you work and everything in between.
Um, and finding ways to add value. Bring joy, um, in the big and the small ways.
Nicole: Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah. Going around sharing that smile that maybe someone needs and having that moment with them, you know? Absolutely. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd be curious, what is your story? What is your journey into all of these things?
Man, we have all the space. Take it up. Share it. I'm here.
Jasmine: Oh, man. So I think about really, I guess I'm gonna start with my journey into higher ed because. That is what like I naturally when people ask me that, that's what I'm naturally go to. So I went to undergrad at the University of Alabama at Birmingham.
I'm a Birmingham native and was an over involved student leader. So thought I was gonna get a degree in student involvement. They don't actually give degrees for that. Really went to school to be an occupational therapist, had a. Not even a quarter life crisis, it was kind of before the quarter life hit, but I had a crisis about like, I don't know if I actually wanna do this and had to change my major.
Yeah. In year four. Oh shit. And so, yeah, which I don't recommend as someone who like put the students like I do not recommend. Um, it was a very stressful like, semester in general. Like the whole semester just was like wild for a lot of different reasons. And when I went and sat down and talked to my mentor, we were talking about, I was like, I don't.
Like if I change my major, I don't know how to pivot back into like the healthcare space. I don't know what that looks like. Yeah, like I don't really know what else I want to do because since I was 16, like I've. Wanted to be an occupational therapist. Like I don't, I've never explored other opportunities like, I don't know.
And so we sort of worked through, she took me through some, um, I'm sure some really great processing activity that all advisors know how to do just on the whim. Sure. And we talked about social work, we talked about teaching, we talked about like counseling and therapy, which all are great professions, have a lot of love and respect for the folks in this profession.
I was like, mm, none of those really moved my spirit. And we stumbled upon student affairs higher education, which is what my mentor also has her degree in. And she's like, well, you can like, what about my job? And I was like, this is a job for you. You do actually get paid and can finance your life, right? Um, and so started to explore higher education student affairs.
Um, and then went to graduate school for that. And all of my work has been centered around multicultural affairs, diversity, equity, inclusion work, particularly because as a black woman, all of my work has also happened at predominantly white institutions. And so I recognize. The necessity or students of color, um, from all identities to see other folks of color in leadership.
Yes. To have those folks to confide in, to coach them, um, as they navigate not just the academic side, but also all of the other things that come with being someone from a marginalized community that has to navigate the world and particularly navigate across campus. So, yeah, so that's how I got into higher ed.
Um, I think my journey into business was a little, um, I kind of just, I don't wanna say that I fell into business, but I think that I was very like anti being an entrepreneur for a very long time. Mostly because everyone that I knew that was talking about entrepreneurship, that was like finding success in entrepreneurship, talked about how much they hated their jobs, and that's what pushed them.
Into entrepreneurship. You weren't, you were just like, I hate my job. My job is stressful. I'm going home. Like I hate it. So I equated that language and that narrative to, that's the prerequisite to, to go into business for yourself is you gotta hate your job enough to be like, eh, we're just gonna take the risk.
And like whatever happens, happens. I don't even like going to work. So what could be worse? And I love my job. I love working with students. I have really had really, um, amazing colleagues and supervisors and. Worked in really great teams. And so it was hard for me to rationalize, like, why would I wanna be an entrepreneur?
I like, I like my nine to five job. Like it pays the bills, lets me have a little bit of fun, like why would I do this? And then a thought came after a conversation with a good friend and she mentioned she was stepping entrepreneurship. She mentioned to me like, oh, you're next. I was like, nah. I am really good.
I'm gonna stay over here as the professional hype woman that I am. I'm gonna cheer on all the people I know that are stepping into business. I want everybody to be successful. I'm good. I don't want to even do this. I will go to my nine to five clock in and out, coach these students and work with these students, and I'm gonna live a good life.
Right. And after she introduced that thought, the thought never left. Oh no.
Nicole: That's how it happens.
Jasmine: That's how it happens. Yeah. Like it was, it was really odd. And so I remember for a month, like I'm praying like God, like I don't wanna be an entrepreneur. Like, please take the thought away. Cause like, I don't wanna do this.
I don't even know where I would start. If this is not what I'm supposed to be doing, just let the thought go away cuz I don't even really wanna do this. I'm anti entrepreneurship already. Mm-hmm. And like the thought just persisted for 30, 30 plus days. Like, it was just like in the back of my mind sometimes all the time.
And so I was like, well I guess we need to do something with this. Um, and so launch my business, Magnolia Pain Consulting in, um, October, 2020, really sitting around. Supporting black women as they sort of explore into entrepreneurship. And it's been an interesting space because in student affairs in higher ed, I have a very good understanding, very clear about like what I know.
I know how to, I know how to do that job really well. I know how to coach and provide students. I know how to do programs like it's great. And when I stepped into the business space, I was like, I have no clue what I'm doing. I have no clue. I'm, I'm any, any little bit of a class a ebook, a YouTube, a podcast like I'm listening to it because I feel like a fish outta water.
In this space because it's not, it's not what's typical in my family. Nobody had really modeled entrepreneurship, so I didn't have a lot of people to look around and say, how do you do this? Yeah. And so we, we figured it out and we're on. We're gonna hit the three year mark this year. So yeah, that's some of my, I guess that's my journey.
Long story short, short story. Long.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know about you, but at least my experience too in going to, um, school was, there was so many careers that I could imagine and something like your mentor had mentioned working with students was not one that I could see in the template of like, you know, 10 options of career choices.
You know, doctor, teacher, you know what, whatever. So I think part, a lot of people have that same experience of going to school for something and then realizing, like you said, like that doesn't move. My spirit. Mm-hmm.
Jasmine: Yeah. Yeah. And that's a hard, like it was such a hard reality and the path is gonna change.
I don't know how to get to the end goal anymore, so we're just gonna switch the path up altogether. But even coming to terms and having to tell my parents, like, yes, I was changing my major, but I remember writing my mom this long letter. It was like a two page letter about. How I like dislike clinics so much and like I need to change my major.
This was after I'd already changed my major, so I had already done the thing and I was just telling her after, but I was so scared to just have like a conversation. I'm very like, anti conflict just like makes my stomach churn. And so when I was younger growing up, one of the things that sometimes like my, my mom used to encourage us to do was like, if you're just like scared to have a conversation, you just like, Write me a note so like, you can get it out.
I have time to process and then we can talk about it at a later point, right? So I was like, okay, love that. She's, she's gonna be fine with notes. Like we've written notes about hard stuff before. So wrote the note. We eventually had a conversation about it, maybe like a week or like a week later. My mom said when she was reading the note, my mom thought I was about to tell her that I was pregnant.
That's what she thought as she was reading the note. She's like, you just set it up so dramatically. Yeah. She's like, then I flipped the page and you all you did, all you said was you change your major. And I was like, whew. Cause she thought it was going a complete different direction. Cause I had built up the drama.
Totally. It was a really dramatic experience. I think I made it dramatic in my head cuz it felt so, it felt so life-changing at 21.
Nicole: Well, and I would say it is, that's the thing. Yeah, it's right is like holding space for like the existential reality of that moment of we're trying to figure out where we're going with our path, what are we gonna do?
And especially when you're someone who I'm picking up from, you know, wants to care for other people and serve other people. It's not like you were going into this with like a, a business focus and trying to like work a corporate job sort of situation. It sounds like you wanted something that. Split up your heart that you were passionate about, that you were giving back.
So these questions are not so much about a major, but more about your purpose, right. Your, your dharma in some ways of what you're doing in the world. And so, yeah, when you make those shifts, that's huge decisions, especially, right? Yeah. At 21 when you're trying to figure it out and we have little experience.
That's, I think that's one of the frustrating things. I had a similar thing where I wanted to be a doctor of medicine and then worked in a clinic and was like, I get five minutes with a patient. That's it. That is definitely not what I want. Right, right. And like we just don't have this lived experience in these different things to even know.
And we have to know at 18, when you come in, actually 18, right? You're supposed to know what you're gonna do for the rest of your life. Wild. But then also it's like we know from psychology that we've internalized all these different relationships and so. Telling your parents is a big thing because we've internalized their response of, will I be accepted?
Will I be celebrated? Will I be rejected? And so, yeah. When you think about those students that you're working with that are the helicopter parents? Mm-hmm. I have so much heart for the students that are trying to figure out their path and that because it's not just their brain that they're holding up there, they're also holding the.
Desires of their parents up there. Mm-hmm. And that's really hard cuz then you might be in opposite ends, you know, I wanna pursue art. And their parent is saying, you need to go into finance. Right. And then you start to get these like deep existential moments of, will I follow my soul and what moves my spirit?
Or am I gonna listen to the expectations of other people? Yeah. And that's hard.
Jasmine: And it, it is hard. And I think like even, even after you get out of school, That's the thing. Am I gonna listen to, to the thing that, that I know in my heart, like this is the thing I'm curious about. I'm passionate about it. It brings me joy.
Yeah. I'm gonna, I'm gonna bet on myself and take the risk, even if it's not a logical thing, even if it's not like the cool thing or the fancy thing that everybody thinks is gonna make me money, or am I gonna listen to all the voices? And I think when you get out of school, there are even more voices that are telling you.
Like, maybe you shouldn't do that. Right? Because like you have respon responsibilities now. Yeah. Right. And, and your time to explore and to take risks in that way. Like you've missed the moment to do that. Right. Um, cuz like if you're, if you're exploring making mistakes and like taking big leaps in your twenties, nobody's really chastising you because that's society, like society has said it's acceptable to like take some risks.
And fail and get up and figure it out and do something different in your twenties. But like when you, when you after 25, 26 and you're still doing that, or, or you've done something completely different and then at 30, 40, 50, like anything over 25 or 26 and you start saying actually like, I don't wanna be a teacher anymore.
I don't wanna be a bit like, I don't wanna do this. I actually wanna like go to cooking school or whatever it is that you want to do. That's like not logical to most people. I. All those voices are still present. Yes. And society then says that's not actually acceptable to be doing and that's not when you should be doing it in terms of where you are in age or in terms of your career or your, or your status, your relationship status.
Right. And so I'm like, yeah, working through that as a student is hard, but then having to potentially rework through that as an adult. Um, with your own opinions of self, cuz you've been with yourself for a much longer period of time. It's also really tricky to navigate and to just like, hold space for, um, right to hold space for like, I can feel the tension of these things and that's okay to feel the tension, right?
And it's deciding and making a choice for yourself. What am I gonna do with this tension? And I'm, and, and am I gonna be true to myself even if I feel the tension? And I think a lot of people choose to diffuse the tension. By not being treated themselves. Mm-hmm. Or by convincing themselves that the thing that they're gonna decide to do is actually true to themselves, when in their mind they know that it's not.
Nicole: And then what you see is depression. You see low energy. You see someone who comes home every day saying, I hate my job. Yeah. Right. And there is some reality to this of like, there's. The systemic pressures of like, not ever, I don't think, based on our current system, everyone can't live that dream job.
That's just like a reality because our systems are built on people living in those jobs or that's not the case. Right. But there are a lot of people that have the movement to go and do that, and then tell themselves that, like you said, it's, it's not, I'm too old. I've spent too much time here. It's too late.
I can't do that. And uh, they spend a lot of time then saying, ah, it's too late. Like, and they stay really in the past, like, it's too late. It's too late, it's too late. And I'm like, you have 40, 50 plus years. You're halfway on the continuum. You're about 40. You have. So much time. But instead what we're looking at is the past saying, I messed up, I didn't figure it out.
I didn't follow my dreams of going to this. And then they stay right here continuing to like ruminate on how they've already wasted those 40 years when it's like I'm trying to get some like mindfulness, wake up like you're you're right here, right now, right here, right now. And you have the opportunity to change the rest of your life moving forward if you want to.
I'm not saying it's gonna be easy, it's gonna be full of lots of challenges, but. Do you wanna stay in that space of ignoring that calling in your heart?
Jasmine: Yeah. And I'm curious to know when, if you get those sort of folks to a space that they, they can sort of see like, I'm living more future focused than I am past, or even I'm living present focus rather than past focus.
What kind of things are they able to start? To do? Or how does their narrative change Yeah, once, once their perspective changes. Yeah,
Nicole: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's the whole thing. Like a lot of what I find in psychology is the narrative, right? Like, what is the narrative that you're telling yourself?
You're telling yourself you've already failed, you messed up the time, and it's too late. Mm. When we unpack that narrative, you can create new ones of, there's still 40 plus years. There's time. Um, one of my colleagues at the clinic that I'm currently working at, you know, I think he's in his fifties and he's going back to get his PhD in clinical psychology, and that has been really inspiring just to see, you know, I'm just, yeah.
Wow. I think that's amazing that you would follow that path at that age to do that and dedicate, you know, 5, 7, 10 plus years in this. And at times I'll like push my mom cuz she's in that same age. I'm like, you could do it too. But my mom never went to college. So then even that is like a whole, you know, a whole step Yes.
To start from that space. So I think sometimes it's also like working within the realities of where you're at because someone like my mom to get a PhD would have to do like, You know, all of the steps of undergrad and all the, it, it would be such a long road. So, but the reality is, for these people in these spaces, there's usually a calling, I would say, that is ringing in their heart.
I, I wrote down what you had said about the entrepreneurship, like that word and that idea of following that plane in the back of your mind. And I think that's what a lot of people have is that, you know, like I knew I should have pursued art. I knew I should have pursued art. And yet they're in this business degree space working in corporate.
And then they still feel that longing. They still feel it. Mm-hmm. Squ it down, like you said earlier with the, that silly that's irresponsible. All of those things. But the thing that lights their soul on fire is art. Yeah.
Jasmine: Yeah. And what I have a good friend who we've, we have this conversation a lot, um, about just like, he talks about certain misery.
And so we had a conversation, I was sharing some ideas and he was like, yeah, so like, what are you gonna do? And I was like, honestly, like all of the ideas seem pretty overwhelming cuz there's like 30 steps involved. And he was like, so are you going to figure out like the next step to take or are you just gonna continue to exist in certain misery?
Because either way, like. The thoughts are going to, you're gonna keep spinning just cuz that's how your mind works, right? So like, you're gonna continue to create and build upon those thoughts. And if you never move on them, then you just insert misery cuz the thoughts aren't gonna go away. And when he said that, I don't know, it was something, something about when he said that, that just like switched onto my brain like, I would rather, I would rather fail trying and trying to do something that brought me joy and to not do it at the, not do it in a, in a way where other people have maybe deemed it the most successful, but for me, feels good to say like, you know what?
Have the idea. Tried it out. It didn't work out the way I thought it was gonna work out. Cool. So now I have other space for other stuff and like, Cool. Right. As opposed to never acting. And it's like, well, all this stuff just playing in the back of my head all the time. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't, it doesn't allow me to have space for a whole lot of other stuff either.
Right. I don't have mental capacity to hold too much else if I have all these other things sort of in the background that I'm actively trying to suppress all the time either. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nicole: Yeah, and I love that you hit on that. At least I tried, right? Like at least I went for it. I gave it my all, and I really put myself out there and I.
Did it. And I think kind of like balancing that is always those fears of what we had talked about earlier of um, yeah, what if someone judges me? What if I go out there and I tell my parents I'm gonna pursue this and then I fail and it falls apart? You know? And so there's always that fear there that can keep people in that state of not moving, right?
Because if I fail, this could happen. So I don't wanna do that. But also like, do you wanna go through your life having not tried? Having not tried, having your one shot at life and staying in that state of fear rather than going for it. Right, right. And yeah, it's, it's so hard cuz I know that that's like a privileged statement for a lot of people to have this space to do that because so many jobs, you know, if you're working two full-time jobs to try and provide for your family, finding that space to like pursue that side hobby is so, is impossible with the current structures that we have.
But the reality is a lot of us do have that extra time. A lot of us do have that extra time, hear that calling, and then stay in that state of just really seeing, you know, it reminds me of like cognitive behavioral therapy, of like really seeing like all of the negative things that could happen if I do this, this could happen, this could happen, this could happen, this could happen.
And then that's where we call it that black and white thinking. Mm-hmm. And we ask. Okay. And those are all the worst case scenarios. What are all the best case scenarios if you follow your heart? Like what are all the best case scenarios with this and trying to have that like balance perspective when you're thinking about these big life changes instead of just staying in all the negative.
Jasmine: Yeah, and I, I think for me, one of the things I'm just like, you know, anything is possible because, And sometimes I have to use like the best case scenario is that like you blow up, you go viral, and then you start making a whole lot of money. Right. I think for a lot of people, like that's sometimes how it happens and that's what success looks like for them.
The first couple iterations are probably not gonna be that great. Oh, totally. That right? Totally is Like the first draft usually never is that great. Right. We don't have, there's not enough people that I think stick through some of this stuff. Right. As you're exploring, as you're trying. If it's like, ah, it didn't go the way I thought it was like forget it.
I wasn't good at that. I wasn't supposed to be doing that. And in reality it's like if you're stuck with it and tried it maybe three more times, like you would get it perfect on the third time and then your trajectory like goes crazy. Yeah, right. And so I know that resilience and sort of perseverance is really important.
I think it's more the grit that's important. I'm sure there's a lot of psychology around grit.
Nicole: Totally. When we think about resilience, what I know is that like that ability is typically based on our community, right? Our ability to be held in our community, our ability to be seen. Because I would say that if you surround someone by a whole circle of community that looks at your photography and says, It's okay.
Like or that shit. What ends up happening is we internalize that. So when we have community around us, then you're like, I could do this, I could do this. And that's where always those sayings of like took, take the five people around you and like that's who you're gonna become. I was always like, that's such a weird like bullshit saying.
And then now that I'm over here on the other side, I'm like, that's really, really accurate. Pay attention to the people that you surround yourself with because they're mirrors. We internalize them in that way and that can either build you up. Or really tear you down?
Jasmine: I feel the same way. Um, and I remember when I said, and I was like, yeah.
I was like, what does that mean? And I think I was hearing that when I was like, in high school. Yeah. And it, it matters at every stage of life, but in my head I just was like, okay. Right. Sure. Whatever. Which is a lot. I feel like I did that a lot in high school. Like I don't know what you're talking about.
For sure. Totally. And now, and I think like what you said is so important because. When I, even when you said that, like I thought about like the, the five people that I talk to the most about business or that I just spend on a daily, like talking to, they have been the people who have like spoken into. I'm like, I'm thinking about doing this and like, If, if I can get two people to say yes out of my inner circle, I'm like, okay, we could do it.
We could do it. But if I'm, if I'm spitting out ideas and like I'm watching if I'm, particularly if I'm on FaceTime or I'm doing this in person and I'm watching you react and the reactions aren't good, then I'm like, okay, maybe I shouldn't. Yeah. Right, right. And so I talk about being a professional hype woman, and I've had a conversation with friends like, I, I always feel very privileged when people are in a place where they're ideated about doing something differently than they're currently doing.
And they come to me to say, Hey, uh, like, here's something I'm thinking about. Yeah. You know? And I'm always like, do you want my thoughts or you just want me to hype you up? Because I could do both, but. I'm gonna lean towards hype you up, but if you want my thoughts, I can give you some critical thoughts too.
Sure. Because I recognize like in those moments where like dreams are just starting to like take root to get grounded in some way. Like the people that you share that with and what they say, um, what they say about your ability to do the thing, what they say about the thing itself. And your potential for success matters more so than when you're established and like someone's just telling you you're doing a great job.
Like if someone, when you're in the idea phase, you have enough people say, uh, yes. Then like, most people are gonna abandon the idea, right? Yes. And so I know, I've found that as, as folks do that I'm always like, Okay. This is a moment where you get to be a part of like pushing them towards a thing that they already know they should be doing.
Mm-hmm. And, and the language that you use in this moment, it matters more than you think. It's gonna matter. And it matters. Even if they don't tell you that it matters. Like it, it matters to Yeah. Right.
Nicole: A hundred percent, yes. Yes. I love thinking about it as, like you said, that seed, right? Taking roots. Like imagine when you first put that sample, uh, is it like a sapling, right?
Sapling. That's what we said. Jesus. Uh, you put that sapling in the ground and then imagine if someone came over and like smooshed it down. It was like, Nope, we don't, we don't like that. I idea that little baby plant does not have the roots. That a plan of, like you said, you know, you've been doing this for 10 years and someone comes in, even if they give you criticism after 10 years, you're like, yeah, I've got lots of roots in this.
This is a little bit of a, you know, breeze compared to like when you're that young and you're planting and just starting to build this, those first initial critiques can be. Devastating. Yeah, it can absolutely kill any potential. And I think what's interesting in that is like thinking about the reality that those critiques often are a reflection of that person's fear, right?
Mm-hmm. When you come to them saying, I have this great idea, and then your friend says, well, I don't know if it's that great. I mean, that's kind of risky, blah, blah, blah. That's a reflection of. Of how they see the world, which is that if you go through this, you're not gonna be received, well, it's not gonna happen.
All these things or you know, you think about parents and they might, you know, be jealous. Other people might be jealous too. Mm-hmm. That's another thing. And so then they like come back with it at attack of like, no, I don't really. Think so. And so you have to be really careful about who you open up.
Especially I, I've experienced, you know, like working in the psychedelic therapy space, working in a kink space, working in a non monogamous space. Queer space. I'll bring up ideas to certain people and they'll look at me like I'm crazy, and then look at other people and they'll say, yes, absolutely. All these things are so great.
Follow them. Go. And so that's one thing too, I feel like when you're navigating these things is like being careful and select. Of who you open up to about this too, because everyone's working from their own lens and their stuff will come out with how they respond to you about this stuff.
Jasmine: Yeah. I think particularly when it comes to like taking risks, it's like outside of the societal space that is deemed acceptable.
Yeah. That it is. Even I think in that space, it's important. Right. Who's coaching you? Who's advising you? Who's mentoring you? Yes. Because you could, you could go left very quickly. Mm-hmm. With the wrong advice. Even if it's socially acceptable. Right. But I think as you get older and you sort of move away from that, like it's even more important to be selective because there's so many other narratives that you are playing out or that society is telling you that you should be playing out.
Right? Yeah. And so I think we feel some of those pressures more. Mm-hmm. Outside of that socially acceptable space. Yeah. I've learned to be very. It's about five people encounter. On one hand it's about five people in God. I'm really careful about like the folks who get to hear my ideas are people who, like, they have shown over time they're, they're gonna be in my corner.
You need folks in your corner who gonna tell you the truth, period.
Nicole: Yes. And the truth might feel uncomfortable at times. Mm. Yeah. I read the book, uh, women Who Run With Wolves. Have you heard of that book?
Jasmine: I have not heard of it, but that sounds incredible.
Nicole: Oh, it's good. It's good. It's all these likes.
Different, um, cultural stories about the wild women archetype and yeah, the energy of women that have passed on through different centuries and different cultures. Dope. Um, and one of the stories that it talks, or just like gently mentioned was like when you, you know, when a mama wolf has her little cubs, you know, when she goes out to hunt and one of the babies is supposed to stay back, but doesn't follow that and comes out to like, run with her, the mama snarls.
At the baby to get it back because it is not safe out there for what it's at currently. Right. And I think I was thinking about that as you were saying, you know, getting that hard truth at times that. Constructive criticism is necessary. Someone might have more lived experience to see this in a different way than you do and will snarl back at you, and you might, oh, oh God.
But the message there is of love of protection. Right? Right. I'm keeping you safe. I've seen things and I'm sharing that with you. And again, that comes back to that nature, right? Like all of these things are mirrored back in different ways, and I think it's important to remember that, yeah, sometimes those messages hurt, but because they're supposed to, you know,
Jasmine: right.
And because the person or the mama wolf who is giving the snarl knows what can happen if it doesn't hurt right now. Right? Yes. Cause like if you don't go back to hide, you will die out here. Yeah. Right. Exactly. And that's painful for you. And it's also painful for me. Right, right, right. And for all the other people, the little baby wolves and cubs and whoever else in the pack is connected to you.
Mm-hmm. Right? So it's like, it's not just. This feel this hurts is that I've seen what happens if you keep going, right? And you Right, you don't need the advice, or you don't need the warning is like, it's a, it's much more destructive than what I'm giving you right now. Mm-hmm. And I wanna protect you from that.
Mm-hmm. Which, yeah, we don't always wanna hear. And sometimes, you know, like we just are like, okay, whatever. And, and then we see it and like, oh. See what you were attempting to do. Yeah. Then, and I should have been more receptive to it, or should have spent a little bit more time with it to, to make sense of it for myself without all of the feelings involved.
Right. Right. And. Holding space for the feelings, but making sense of what you were trying to tell me from a logical perspective so I can do something with that information.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. Yeah, exactly. And that's, that's growth, right? That's the uncomfortability of growth. When people expect it to be soft and easy, I'm like, I don't know what world you're living in, because that is not the reality.
Mm-hmm. And that's kind of like hitting back to that sense of grit, right? That it. Takes time. And I think, um, stories are so important for us for how we see the world, how we move about, how we can predict our narrative. And so being able to have other, you know, mentors that you look up to, other people that you, you know, whether you follow them in real life.
Right, or you follow them on Instagram, you follow them on YouTube and you listen to their story of how they got into that space. And I would say most stories, I mean, some people obviously have money and prestige and come into it easy, right? But most other people have a story of like seven, 10 years, you know, of really fighting.
Listening to that calling, that thing that lights them up and going and going and going for it. And then we see them at year 20. They're a big thing and we're like, oh, that looks easy, but like you didn't see all 10 years of them fighting for this thing that they're so passionate about.
Jasmine: Right? Yeah. I know.
I have one of my business mentors, she says this all the time, that. It's a quote from Denzel Washington and I'm, I might misquote the years that he uses, but y'all understand the concept right, is he said it takes 20, it took me 22 years to become an overnight success. I love that. And like I love that love Denzel, like for pop culture has done so many great things, right?
And he said it took me 22 years to be an overnight success in the way that other people would interpret it, right? I think about, I just saw an Instagram reel. Nipsey Hussle was doing an interview and he talked about how he was a student, he's a student of success. Mm. He's like, whether I know you real life, I'm watching you from afar.
Right. When I'm watching people be successful, whether it's in something I wanna do or it's not there, there are typically, um, there is a common thread of success, right. Um, from a lot of different viewpoints and vantage points. And so you're watching people, you're listening to the stories that people are telling about how they got to places you wanna be, right.
He's like, I'll take a lesson from anybody. Yeah, right. Anybody who, who's, who's seen the success I want, I'll take a lesson from 'em any day because if I wanna be there, why would I not? And I'm like, mm-hmm.
Nicole: Yeah, that makes sense. Like that beginner's mindset to keep learning in that. Yeah. And I'm also curious because, so I.
Used to be Christian and now went through a hard agnostic stage of N no religion now. No religion. So even when you say the word God, I'm like, oh, you know? Yeah. But, but to me it's the universe, right? And so I think we're probably speaking about the same voice, that same guidance, right? At the end of the day.
And what I do think is interesting is that that calling, mm, I'm curious if you could speak to that for you. Like how does God speak to you?
Jasmine: Man. Um, that, that's such a great question. Um, it looked different on the season. I think it's looked different based on the questions I'm asking or what I need to hear.
A lot of times it's been confirmed through other people, and so I may be processing something in prayer or asking very specific questions about what should I do with this? Like, you know, make some shake or confirm that I'm going the right way, I'm not going the right way. I need, right. A lot of times it's been people, it's been folks who, like I, this has happened a lot with my business mentor.
We'll have a conversation and I, and I'm, I haven't asked anything about what I've been thinking about, but like, Her whole conversation is about that thing, and I'm like, have you been in my notebook or have you been a fly on the walls? I'm praying like there's no way that you can speak so directly to something that like, you don't even know.
I've been like talking to God about. That's That happens a lot. Yeah, a lot. Reminders or again, like you're confirming something that we've already had a conversation about. I just had to tune in just a bit to be like, oh. Wait a minute. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. I would say the last way that um, can't experience his presence in his voice is really about creativity.
Mm. And I try to be aware of, it might not always look the same, and I'm open to that. I need some, sometimes need, need an increased awareness to. To really process like that's what's happen.
Nicole: Totally, totally, totally, totally. Yes. Yes. And a lot of what you said are like some of the same ways that I feel like I am connected to that sense of calling, that sense of the universe speaking to me.
So I think there's a lot of similarities in terms of, um, synchronicities. Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like having those moments, like you said with your mentor, where that conversation that you had been praying about, thinking about shows up and you're like, hold on, that's a little too close for comfort. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean?
Yeah. Or I'll have these ideas and then, you know, sometimes the synchronicity will come and Yeah. Like another human, I think one of them for me was like the first day that I had, um, decided I was gonna get a website designer and like, Publish my website and do that whole thing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I was very nervous about that cuz I was like a big step.
Yeah. And then, right? Yeah. And then, um, I went into my yoga class and afterwards I was like, how's everybody doing? You know, they're like, great, how are you? And I'm like, well, you know, like I published my web or I got a website designer, I'm really excited, uh, for my podcast. And someone was like, oh, what's your podcast?
And I was like, oh, modern anarch. Um, and they're like, oh, I think I've heard of it. And I was like, no, probably not. Like, cuz like, what are the odds that one of my random yoga students has heard my, I was like, it's not, it's not that big. You know, like, no. Um, and then he was like, yeah, no, like I've, I've heard of it.
I listened to it, my friend like sent me it and I listened to it and I was like, Whoa. I was like, okay, universe. I was like, right all the days to meet a random fan in person on the day that I was like, should I have like, was this the right move to make the website? Right. Absolutely. I call that a synchronicity of a deep level for me, where I'm like, okay, universe.
Yeah, like. Thank you for giving me that moment of like, you're, you're doing something that people are listening to. Yeah. Never again will I say it's not that big. I learned that lesson. I was like, I will not tell myself it's not that big, right? Mm-hmm. There's people listening, there are people doing this, and so to like not even play it small in that moment, which was my narrative, right?
Jasmine: Yeah. And I think back right to that idea of like playing small, cuz I'm very much like when people, even when people like talking about my business, Like at work or something, I'm like, ugh. Yeah, exactly. I dunno, it's just, I'm like, it's just a small business. Like I won't do too much. Um, and what I realized is like, that lang, that lang particularly the language that I'm using to talk about, right.
Because if I tell someone like, it's not that big, it's not a big deal. Right? Then it, then it won't be a big deal to them. Right? Right. And the reality is it is a big deal. Like I put a lot of time and effort and energy. It's a lot of tears and a lot of conversations with God about how to do this. Good.
Well, in a way that's well received in that as value. It's a big deal to me, even if I don't say that. Totally. Like I just spent a lot of money to get this right. Totally. And to learn how to do this well and so it's like, yeah, I had to catch myself in, stop in, and really be able to just like accept when people like hype hype me up in that way.
Be like, thanks. Like I appreciate that. Yes. Because anything other than that is a disservice to all the time and the effort and energy that I put into it. Right. And that was never a small event. Like those things are never small investments from the, from the person making. Yeah. Now they may seem small on the outside like we know Yeah.
To produce a podcast like that's no small feat, like totally Right. Like to, to ideate around what, what a community and all of these things look like. Like none of that is small. Yeah. Any investments are not small. And so I had to, I had to stop doing that because I realized that like, If I keep doing that, then like it won't ever be a big deal to people.
Totally,
Nicole: totally. What's wild is like this podcast has a global reach like that. That is a fact. Thank you. It was in the top five like shared podcast globally for the last in December. So we're just, I know, right? So like I. It's, it's different. I don't know if you feel this way, but like, I do this here and I make it, but like when I go out into the world, it's not like I, you know, see that reflected back to me.
Yeah. So then that's why it's weird where it's like, oh yeah, I can know that cognitively and then like step out into the world and like no one knows what it is, you know, cuz like the world's bigger than that. So then like, trying to like internalize that when people like you say that, right? Or when people, I get those messages, it's hard cuz like, I don't, I don't feel it yet and I don't know.
When we'll feel it. I don't know when that happens.
Jasmine: Yeah, yeah. Global reaches, that's a big deal. Regardless of what you're doing, global reach in any industry is, yeah, is huge. Right? And so it's like, yeah, like I may not go in the world and everybody's like, oh my gosh, you're the host of Modern's. So nice to meet you.
But because your podcast has global reach, somebody could, which is what happened. Say that. Yeah, right. Exactly. Um, and so I think, I think those moments are always really cool. Yeah. Because I think it's, it's those reminders that we need that, like the work that we do, it matters to somebody, right? It matters to me, but it, it matters to somebody else outside of me.
And that's, that's all. Like, I put this stuff out into the world for other people to find value in it too. And if, if just one person says, you know what? That was really, I appreciate that. I, I like that podcast episode or whatever it is. Then like, cool, we've, we've done, we've done the work that we needed to do.
Nicole: That's what I've always told myself. One, I wanna call out and appreciate your hype energy. I loved receiving that, you know, and two, that was always what I told myself is like, just one, if one person, if one life is changed, right? Like, can I feel the contentment of that and be in that space? And so that's where I've, I've tried to stay, but I think the, the natural human condition is that.
We, you know, we have one thing and then we're like, but more, but more, but more. And then that is like, mm-hmm. Just a perpetual cycle, I think of like human experiences, like, I have this, but now I want more. And that being able to like pull that back and stay like, grateful for where you're at right now and what you have.
It can be really hard. But yeah. I also, in terms of like tuning into spirit, speaking to you and guiding you in these things, I feel like, yeah, what you talked about creativity of having those great ideas. There have been those moments that like ideas have come through and it has been so clear. Like it just, it feels clear in a way that I couldn't otherwise ex explain that when the idea comes through, it's, it's a yes in my head.
Like it's like this is what you should do. Here it is. Go for it. And then that's when it feels different in that way or, yeah, and like the idea of the body. I think that's been a really big one for me too, of. Feeling into, and my mentors are always trying to get me to do this one. And this one's so hard for me just to be like, I know, right?
So I'm so analytical, um, to just like, yeah, close my eyes and take a moment and like, feel into it when I think about that idea or that next step that I'm making in my life, like what is my body's response to it? And sometimes I can't even tell to be quite frank, which I'm working on, but like, I will also notice that, you know, when I'm thinking about another idea going somewhere that maybe doesn't feel right, I start to feel sick and nauseous and all these other sorts of things.
Mm-hmm. All stressed, tired, rundown, and I'm like, okay, something's gone on there. And being able to like suss out, even from a body perspective, how we respond to certain ideas, I think has been really helpful.
Jasmine: Yeah, I am learning to do that more. Our bodies tell us a lot about situations, at least growing up, like I was never taught to tune into that as a means of information.
And so now I've started to pay more attention to how my body responds to people, to ideas, thoughts, situations, and then to, to interrogate. Mm-hmm. Like why? Like what? What is my body trying to tell me about this, this situation or this experience? Which is hard to, hard to do like when you start doing that at 30 as opposed like yes.
You know, growing up doing that. But I think it's is an important tool cuz our body knows us very well, so. Oh, cuz it's been our body for our whole life and it's job is to protect us. Like the brain's job is to keep us alive and to protect us. And so if there's anybody that's gonna go hard for me, that's gonna try to protect me, it's gonna be my, my body and my brain.
That's the job that they are put on. Like, that's why they exist. Um, and so tuning into some of those, Bodily sensations. Cause I think those are important, like I said, important pieces of information that we can use if we tune into it, right?
Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. That's always then where like my analytical brain then pushes back.
Cause I'm like, what about traumas? What, what, what is, what do you do when it's your trauma speaking to you slash what do you do when it's your fear speaking to you in a way that is reasonable? I would say in my non-monogamy journey, I've had lots of fear as I've unpacked like jealousy and things. And so like in those moments, yeah.
If I tune into my body, like my body's scared, uh, but in the same way that it's scared when I go rock climbing, right? So it's like that's a reasonable fear, but I'm still gonna do it anyways. So like trying to like suss out all these different body reactions of like the trauma versus intuition versus like reasonable fears that we push through.
Yes. Oh man, that is a journey and a half and I do feel like, Through continued practice, I'm starting to like feel the different types of what they feel like, and they do feel different in each category, but how getting the language to describe that in a public platform and with share it with others, I'm still like trying to ground like finding words for that like ineffable experience of like what is felt in the body between those different states.
Jasmine: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and it's tricky like to put the language to it cuz because it's not something we, we, most of us don't grow up practicing. We don't have the language and then have to one, understand like what the sensation is in itself and then two, figure out what's the language that other people would use to describe this.
That makes sense, right. To share to other folks. Right. To share, right. So that other people can like be like, oh yeah, I understand what you're saying. Totally,
Nicole: totally. And I think what we can both say is that the best way to start doing that is just practice. Even if you don't feel anything, just sitting with it and just starting to tune in.
And I think that's a lot of our society's like current distress is that we're so disconnected from our bodies in a lot of different ways. Not even in this context of feeling intuition, but just in a lot of different ways. We've really disconnected from our experience and even just being able to connect to your breath when you're stressed, like that's a radical idea for a lot of people, unfortunately, because of our world.
Jasmine: And I think it's a To slow down, right? Yeah. To slow down enough to recognize, to like take note of what's happening to, to take a breath to process. We're so like addicted to being busy, that the idea to sit to just sit still is. The idea of it is, is like a far out idea. And then to actually do it is not a far out idea, but like it is very uncomfortable.
So then like people don't practice it enough because it feels very uncomfortable because our bodies are used to like always being on go. Right? Um, and that's against the grain of how society has conditioned us to sort of move. Um, but it's like helpful, right? And, and in terms of just like understanding self, like it's just helpful.
You can't understand yourself if you're always on the go. Like you gotta sit with yourself long enough to. Like be able to understand and Totally. And to question and to like have an experience with yourself, like you have, you have to stop doing to be able to do that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's just against the grain of, of society and culture.
Right. Um, this is like, nah, we don't have time to do that.
Nicole: Yeah, exactly. I don't have time to sit and think I don't have time. Yeah. And it's uncomfortable as someone who equally struggles to like sit in silence and just take a deep breath when I'm really stressed out with school. Like it's uncomfortable.
But I think that's also why. Those shower thoughts, right? Those shower thoughts, they're coming in at that time because that is when we're kind of like in the sensation of the water on our body. Yeah. Taking that moment and then all of a sudden these great ideas come through and these things. Mm-hmm.
Jasmine: Yeah.
Yeah. That makes sense, Uhhuh. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Nicole: Yeah. As we come towards the end of our time, I wanna hold a little bit of space in case before coming into this conversation, you maybe had something on your heart that you wanted to say that maybe we didn't get to. Otherwise, I have a closing conversation or a closing question I ask all of my guests.
Jasmine: I'm trying to do this more and like going into conversations with minimal expectation and just letting it be so I can just be. Be present with what's happening in the moment. So no, I don't think I had anything that I like had pre-planned to say, but I really enjoyed just like the conversation overall.
Good. So, yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. Well then the closing question I ask everyone is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal? Oops,
Jasmine: I know that. No pressures. Wow. That's, that's a loaded question, man. I know that's loaded.
Nicole: I answered it recently. There's a, I've had so many different answers, by the way.
You can take that anywhere you want when I, I do like an annual, like two year. Reflection podcast episode every year that I'm doing this. Mm-hmm. And uh, last time I answered it about nipple hairs because I was like so insecure about it and I'm like, we need to fucking talk about this shit. Yeah. So you and some other people take it deep.
Some you can take it light, you can take wherever you want. I go,
Jasmine: the first thing that came to my mind, crying, even when you're not sad, is a normal experience and is a normal expression of emotion. I've always been a crier, like since I was a kid, I was my mom. Has always told me like I was of her three children are like, I'm the most sensitive of the three and I've been like that my whole life.
You can't fuss me too hard as a kid, cuz I'm probably gonna cry. As I've grown up, I've got a lot of messaging around when it's appropriate to when and where it's appropriate to cry and what it is appropriate to cry about. Yeah. And as I've gotten older, what I've realized is, and what I've come to terms with is, Crime is a very vulnerable expression of emotion.
And there are a lot of people that are very uncomfortable with people that can freely express that. But I can, and so like, and I don't have to know you. Like I can be mad. I'm gonna cry, I'm be frustrated. I can be overwhelmed. I can be like happy. Yeah. Sad. And all of the like emotions that run in between on the spectrum and.
It is a normal release, like it just is and I wish more people knew that that was normal. I think the world would be a better, a better place if more people cried and were, were able to release whatever it is they've been holding onto. Totally. And I wish that other folks who. Bartender in that way knew that they didn't have to change because other people are covered.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yes. When you say that, I think about the narratives we have around that, right? Like you cry, someone might say, that was the worst thing that happened. I cried in front of everybody. It made me feel weak. Did all those things see that narrative going, of like making meaning of that experience in that way?
And I think, like you said, that's because society has that, you know, Perspective on it, but I would put it in the opposite way. To be able to be open, to be able to be vulnerable is such a strength. Right. And to. Trust yourself to express that with other people. I think that is truly like allowing your emotions to flow.
Mm-hmm. When you, and we need release cathartic release in all different types of way. Right. You know, my, my realm is always sexuality, so I'm always like thinking about that part because I think that. If you can't cry comfortably and allow that release, I'd be curious what other aspects of release in your life are like.
Can you let yourself go there? Can you let yourself have that happen? Because I think those two things, being able to be connected to your emotions are deeply connected to your ability to experience pleasure sexually because it's all a part of that experience of releasing and allowing yourself to be fully in that.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Jasmine: Yeah. I've never connected those two dots, but that makes sense in my head. Right? Because
Nicole: if you can't cry, you're holding, you're holding, you're holding, you're holding, you're stiff. Right? In all those same ways, and it's like the same thing, you know, you might be able to get into it, but like I would, I would argue that your capacity for pleasure is much greater when you're able to release and allow yourself to flow in all areas of your life.
Yeah. Yes. The hard thing is like so much of reality is so tough and strong and and aggressive and hard, and I think at least for me in medicine, work with psychedelics, that has been one of the things that has really softened me is like, I'll have a medicine experience and get so soft and will cry and have that sort of experience and then come back out into the world and I'm like, oh yeah, this is a tough, tough world.
Like we're like, that's a tough, there's amount of Yes, and there's amount of like, Hard callousing that is needed to move through the world. And so I think sometimes we go through this life not even realizing how much we have held on to protect yourself. To protect, protect because of society, because of the circle of relationships you might have in your life that you've had to be that hard person.
And sometimes it takes just being able to have that one moment of that not be the case to realize, whoa, like there is a whole. Other world where I could be softer in flow with my emotions and, and tender in that way. Yeah.
Jasmine: Yeah. And I, yeah, I, and that's why I said I, I wish more people, I think if more people cried more often, the world would just be better.
Well, we don't have to be as hard and careless.
Nicole: Yes, I'm all here for that revolution of seeing that future of more people crying. And I think, yeah, part of it then is creating safe relationships for people where they feel held, and part of that is doing exactly what you're doing of that hype work, of supporting people, of being that person, because they're gonna feel much more comfortable coming to you to cry about their little sapling of a business that might be, you know, in its tough phases than to someone who's coming down to squash it.
You're gonna be that. Safe space or they feel like they could go there. And so you're, you're making that reality happen in the activism work you're doing with those people and to change lives in that way, to calm more people into their highest calling. And that is, that's a gift for the world that you're doing.
Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah. Well, where can you plug your stuff so people can find you, connect with all your things. Yeah. Plug away.
Jasmine: Um, sure. So you follow me personally at underscore. J. P as in Paul underscore does it on Instagram and you can follow my business Magnolia and Pin Consulting at Magnolia Pin with two Ns pill on Instagram.
Nicole: Great. And then I'll have that all linked below so people can, and find it straight in the show notes. It was so lovely to have you. Thank
Jasmine: you so much, Nicole. I appreciate it. It's great.
Nicole: If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast. And head on over to Modern Anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode.
I wanna thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
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