Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast featuring real conversations with conscious objectors to the status quo. I'm your host, Nicole.
Hello, hello. On today's episode we have feminist artist and queer sex radical, Sadie. Join us for a conversation exposing the dark side and complications of open relating. Together we talk about the spectrum of jealousy, navigating the limitations of time and energy, and the wild adventure of co-creating relationships. This was such a lovely conversation with Sadie who has so much lived experience and wisdom when it comes to non-monogamy and open relating. And I really appreciate the nuance that Sadie brought to the conversation on non-monogamy. I think that sometimes people only talk about the pros and the delights and the joys of non-monogamy, but there's also a lot of logistical complications that come with it. So I appreciate Sadie opening up about her experience with non-monogamy and being vulnerable about her own journey with this as well. And Sadie had compared it to parenting in some way, right? There's a lot of work and time and energy that goes into the parenting relationship that can feel utterly exhausting.
And then you have those moments of joy that make it all worth it. And I think for me as someone exploring non-monogamy in my own personal life, one of the comparisons that I have been relating it to is rock climbing in a lot of ways for me. I think that when I first started rock climbing, it was really scary even going up on an audible and simple protective safety device. It was still terrifying to get to the top of that height and have to jump down. And having done that now for what I've been climbing for four years, I mean, that doesn't even phase me now at all, right? But things like lead climbing, climbing outdoors, those still bring up a natural fear. And what I do in those situations, I acknowledge the fear.
I don't fight it. I honor where it's coming from and I choose to climb anyways, right? And I think at least currently where I'm at in this journey, there's a lot of fear I've experienced in terms of my attachment with my partners and being able to see them interact with other people or to have sex with other people and to go through all of the feelings that that brings up in my body has been very similar to the experience of fear with climbing outdoors. And I've grounded myself in that same way of honoring where it's coming from and giving myself the rest that I need, connecting with my climbing partners in that journey to do our safety checks and to have lots of conversation and practice about it. And y'all, the journey is fun and exciting and also terrifying, but I am enjoying this trip and the view seems to be very worth it for me. But you can't just talk about the view.
You have to talk about all the other pieces. And I think that's why I really appreciated Sadie coming on to talk openly about, you know, both sides of the coin, the yes and to all the joys of non-monogamy. So Sadie, thank you for bringing your lived experience and your wisdom to the modern anarchy community. Y'all, I hope you enjoy today's conversation and tune in. I'm actually really curious about why you started this podcast and what your background is. And you told me that your background was in sex and relationships.
And what does that mean? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. So originally I started the podcast. If I go back, I believe because I was exploring polyamory for the first time and really excited by the ideas and also feeling like there should be more conversation about some of these things along with like other things that needs to change with society, right?
Like other things that need to change, including like discussions around mental health, queerness and just sexuality in general, bringing that out of the closet to talk about it more. And so I think part of it was also just to find other community of people, right? So I thought, oh, here I go. I'll start this podcast to connect to other people. And then, yeah, started on this idea of letting other people nominate other people and then letting go of control from it. And now it's kind of taking its own direction through that of like what the topics are, which is kind of cool. And then in terms of my like areas of study, so I'm getting my doctorate in clinical psychology. So I have to do like a general overview of most of like human psychology for that. But then my area of focus is specifically on sex and relationships. So I do a lot of research on, yeah, sexuality, mindfulness with that, polyamory, kink. And then my research focus is on relationship anarchy.
So that's kind of my area. I'm still a baby to all of it, right? Because I started exploring these ideas what maybe like two, three years ago. So yeah, there's so many people I talk to have done this for decades and other things.
So a lot of this podcast is also me learning, you know? Mm-hmm. Other people. Okay, interesting.
So then I'm curious, like what are you curious about right now within those topics specifically around relationship anarchy or polyamory? Or because basically I have lived experience with a lot of this. And I'm kind of like at the other end of the spectrum. I'm in my mid-40s and I've been living as a feminist kind of queer sex radical for basically my whole adult life. And I've been a sex worker for over 20 years. And I'm a parent and I'm an artist and I do public speaking. And I'm curious and I'm hoping in the next year to start my own podcast. But I'm curious to hear like what someone who's kind of at the beginning of their journey wants to hear from someone farther down the line.
Yeah. And also who like if a lot of your experience is academic and through a modality of becoming a practitioner and mine is all like in the underground and just living. Like what yeah, what do you want to know? I think as you were saying that my first reaction off the top of my head was where are you at now?
You've lived it all. What do you want now? And where are you at?
Yeah. Well, where I'm at now is like not a very picture perfect place. I'm at a really kind of like low place as far as living my identity. And a lot of that is about being a single parent who also has chronic mental health. Issues and has been living as a like an underground freelance worker my whole life.
And so my older kid has two co-parents and my younger kid I'm a single parent of. And basically at this point, you know, I'm a sex worker have been for over 20 years have been in all of these relationships and sexuality radical communities and spaces and and have both my personal and professional life really grounded there. But like I'm not in any relationship right now. I'm probably the farthest away from my own personal sexual practice that I've been in my adult life. And I'm also deeply kinky and a pervert and feeling very constrained in all of these identities in the last years. And it's something that I never could have imagined as a younger person.
And definitely not what I wanted. But there's a lot of reasons there and a lot of like real life. And and how I think a lot of where I am now is that trying to be good parent and trying to kind of sustain my mental health right now is top priority. And there has just not been a lot of kind of extra buffer energy or room for all of the other things which in my, you know, heart and body and mind are still huge priorities for my interest and what it what it feels like to be like a well rounded person seeking, you know, like who has a fulfilling life. But it's but it's also that I'm in a different pace now, like every decade or so I feel like the pace of life changes. And I'm I'm just really out of urgency. And a lot of that is like is like a burnout from a very urgency led previous lifestyle. Yeah. So I think a lot of like I have a lot of thoughts and ideas and a lot of changes in the way that I approach all of these topics.
But a lot of it is really just like there's not much practice on most of the things that I really like built my work and identity on because it's not making the cut of like availability. Yeah. Ease access.
And priority. Yeah. I mean that sounds really tough. I mean you use the word constraining.
Yeah, it has been really constraining. I mean part of it is also because like I have further healing to do and it's a lot of it's been feeling like, I mean, the thing is, when we engage in relationships and sexuality, it's like, it always has an effect on us. And some people are more sensitive to that effect, and some people are less sensitive, and some people have a higher tolerance for whatever kind of like emotional toll or baggage, or not even emotional, but energetic, you know, how like basically dealing with sexuality and with anything that involves a lot of vulnerability or love, I think is kind of like heavier on the energetic exchange. And some people, but especially like mostly when you're younger, I think there's just a lot of extra energy where you can do a lot of like quick energetic exchange. And before you even fully process it, have like an abundance leftover to like move on to the next thing, you don't really understand how the like the longer terms effects of of how that affects you is, and it changes as you age. And, and also, I think a lot of younger people have a lot of misconceptions of what it means to get older. And one of those is that you get a thicker skin as you get older. And it actually tends to be the opposite, you actually tend to feel more sensitive. And a lot of that is because you've, you've maybe gone through similar things multiple times.
And, and so it's not like building a thicker skin, it's just like hitting the same bruise. And plus, it's not like our society is high on respect validation, and especially for aging femmes, like there is so much, you know, deep invalidation and degradation of aging femmes when it comes to both emotional reality and any kind of sexuality. And there's like a little, you know, niche kind of like fetish, porn, like relationship possibility in the major society, I'm not talking about like in deep queer culture or anything like that. But in like the big culture, there's like, you know, there's the cougar and the milf, but it's such a small, little kind of like asterisk of a possibility that, you know, for the most part, I feel like middle aged women are kind of seen as a joke.
And elder women are, you know, famously invisibilized. And that's a really intense transition to embody. And I think especially if you're a person who doesn't get a lot of your kind of like fulfillment or your identity validation from the capitalist heteronormative markers of kind of success or relationship ladders or whatever, like if it's not about, okay, so, you know, you study, you start a career, you marry, you have kids, etc, etc.
Right. That's not where you're trying to, or what gives you fulfillment, or what makes, you know, a life of purpose for you. And especially if it's not about like following a specific order, I think it's really challenging to age into this, this demographic that it's just, it's confusing. It's like there's no math, you know, and which, you know, the benefit of that means that there's a lot of like free space to kind of create for yourself. But it also means you kind of, you have to like bushwhack it yourself. Like it's not like there's an easily tread path that's, you know, like that the, the Department of Public Parks has like clearly marked for you. Yeah, right.
And laid out with little like water stations along the way. Right. So it's interesting, because I feel like a lot of the sex radical community, a lot of the like, out and loud and proud folks are, you know, under 35. And a lot of the people who maybe have more solid work in academia or writing or with institutions around studying sexuality might be older, but their voices are usually in the background. But like, I think in any kind of underground subcultural world, aging is confusing, because a lot of subculture is kind of created and run for younger people. And then, and then I think there's a lot of assumption that like people age out, or there's like a question mark, like what happens, you know, like where I remember I used to be like, okay, where do the queers go? Like, when you don't see them at the party anymore?
Like, what are they doing? You know, like, it's interesting to kind of try to pick a path. Yeah. And also understand that sometimes, you know, sometimes even like your passion and your politics are not the priority of your day to day life. Right, right, right. As you age, your priorities might shift. And then as yeah, and also like, there might be a pandemic. And yeah, like, you know, yeah, exactly. And then everything's flipped upside down, right? Right.
Exactly. I mean, what I was hearing was like, where is the space for fem stage in the subculture? Yeah, I mean, in the greater culture, of course, as well.
But I think in yeah, I think in subculture, in general, it's like, you become less and less visible. And it's interesting, because I do know that like, I mean, one thing that's great about queer culture sexually is that there are a lot more people, there are a lot more queers that I know that really, like, sexually admire elder folk. Like, it's a much more like, there are many more older fem older butch loving younger queers than there are at least that are vocal about it in the straight world.
But as far as as far as like, elder fem loving anyway, but it's often like that message doesn't necessarily get to the intended audience. Sure. Yeah. And the other thing is, is that when you grow older, like this whole thing about the thick skin, you don't necessarily have as much bandwidth to to deal with like, the pace and the urgency and the experimentation that younger folks are, you know, like that they're younger people often tend to be in an exploratory phase.
And that makes perfect sense. But that can really be that can really wear on older people when they're not in that phase anymore. You know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you might not have the energy given with the shifts and the priorities to be in that phase. Or like, I mean, like with polyamory, for example, or non monogamy in general, like, I think people often in their, you know, relationship styles, they also go through phases, it can be like sexuality, it can be like, you know, some some people's orientation shifts over time, a lot of people's type of sex they like to have shifts over time.
Yeah. And I think that the kind of relationship model that works for people, whether it's the sexual relationship or like a romantic relationship model also shifts over time. And I think that like, that's just something that we don't talk that much about in culture. But a lot of people will go from like, maybe a marriage to wanting, you know, no relationship. And that might include sex or not, or be, you know, someone who does serial monogamy, and then, you know, actually ends up dating two people they really like for some years, you know, like in parallel. And there are all sorts of different ways that this is being played out in culture at large. But we're not really talking about it as because I think because there's such this, like the, you know, like the heteronormative story is like, everything is leading towards marriage and whatever is not marriage is somehow just like experimental. It's not not so much of an intentional choice. Yeah.
Yeah. Or like finding out what works for you. But I know that for instance, for me, like my experience with non monogamy, and my approach to it has changed a lot. And also my thinking of my own positionality within it.
Yeah. And a lot of that is about being very ideologically based when I was younger, and moving more and more into deeper self acceptance and understanding and being willing also to like hold out for things that are closer to my actual needs and desires rather than like trying to achieve an ideology or a model that think is how it should be based on what I've read or what I see other people doing or what, at least what other people say they're doing or etc. So maybe at the beginning it was like, I need to hit these markers to be this sort of type of person. Well, at the beginning I was a slut and I became non monogamous because I cheated on people when I was a teenager. And I hated cheating on people, but it like kept happening. And I when I learned about intentional non monogamy, then I was like, Oh, okay, there's there's the formula that that that makes things honest and transparent, but is like true to what seems to be my actions. And now, like I don't think that if I was in a monogamous relationship, I don't think cheating would be a problem, but I also haven't been in a purely monogamous relationship, like ever.
However, it doesn't mean that I feel that I'm good at non-monogamy. And I think a lot when we think about our relationship structures, it's like, you know how in psychology, there's kind of a relatively new as far as getting much attention or airtime model where it's less based on an individual as kind of like, okay, here is a person, are they adapting functionally or dysfunctionally to the world? And it's more like, let's look at the whole contextual model and see what are the surrounding circumstances and systems that a person is, and how does that affect their mental health and their feeling of wholeness?
And I think that this is extremely pertinent to relationship models, constellations. And it's something that I think people don't talk or see that much. People who are living in financially stable, housing stable, racially or class-wise or sexual orientation, privileged kind of lifeplaces, where they feel pretty well-attuned to the people around them. They have friends or supportive family in general, are gonna have a lot easier time having a non-traditional relationship model and not necessarily because everyone is gonna accept it. Like that might really be a challenge, but the more stable and secure and supportive the rest of a lifestyle is, and just a person's general feeling of like, safety and reaction from the world, like am I likely to get, you know, a positive response from the world?
Or am I used to the world, you know, being a like a scarier or hurtful place? That's hugely gonna affect how their relationships go in general. Absolutely.
Whether it's friendships, familial relationships, or especially romantic relationships, where, you know, like our identities and our emotions tend to be so loaded. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So I think I'm like, I am looking at things from this more holistic perspective, especially around nonmonogamy. And because I feel like in the underground, especially like in radical queer spaces, nonmonogamy is kind of the norm, but it's really rough. It's really rough, because it's a small community, even though it's international, it's still a very interconnected, not that large community of people who often have a lot of societal tension in general. And it's just like, it's a lot of factors of challenge.
Yeah, yeah. And yeah, and I wish that there was more acknowledgement of that without it being like a shaming or judgmental thing. Like, you know, like people who live in subcultures or radical communities can't handle this or shouldn't try this or something like that, but more understanding that we deserve gentleness and time and that it's very likely that there's gonna be a lot of very intense feelings, whereas I feel like at least, you know, when I was coming up, like in nonmonogamy, like jealousy was like a really dirty word. And it's like no one wants to be jealous, you're not supposed to be jealous.
It's almost like it's an enemy. And I don't know if, like tell me, because you are fairly new, like in the things that you're reading or hearing or talking to people, like how is jealousy addressed? Yeah, I mean, I've been in spaces where some people have been like something's wrong with you if you have jealousy, right? Like you were insecure in yourself, there's something you need to explore in your own security with this person if you're jealous. Yeah, but who's not insecure in themselves? Like expecting ultimate security, who has that?
Like Elon Musk, ew. Like do we wanna be dealing only with people who are like deeply self-fulfilled and totally secure? I just don't know that that's realistic, especially not over time. And I think that we all have insecurities and there's always gonna be times in our life also where those insecurities are magnified and that while it is our own work to work on and with them, ideally relationships that support that work not be something where it's like, well, if you have insecurities, you are doing a disservice to the relationship or you don't deserve to have relationships or whatever it is. Because I just don't see that being real with people.
Like humans aren't like that. And I think a lot of monogamous relationships, although I speak now only from observation and not from personal experience, but ones that I see that seem to function well, both function well and last fairly long, it tends to be because there's a lot of like safety and trust between those people. And I don't know how much of a workaround we can do with that. And that involves both safety and trust within ourselves and between each other.
And I don't think either one really works. I just feel like when talking about monogamy or non-monogamy, there's just not enough discussion of all of the greater kind of like demographic factors that make a difference. Like what culture are the people who are in these relationships surrounded by?
And what messages do they get from that culture around relationships, sex, expectations, desire, et cetera. But also I think that jealousy is so natural. Possessiveness is natural. And it's like most things, there's a spectrum per individual. I have one former lover that's one of the least naturally jealous people that I know. And it's kind of amazing to talk with him because it just seems to be a core part of his personality. And he always says, well, his parents were swingers and that's kind of how he got that thing. But I think it's so much more complex than that. I think it's about attachment theory.
Oh yeah. I think there's like many factors that are around, our basic ideas of like, is there enough for us? Are we competitive or not? And that this is not necessarily, I'm not judging any either way. I just think these are all, like we have all of these spectrums within us. And some of it's about what the conditions of our upbringing were.
And some of them are just things that, it's like we're born somehow also as us. And everyone has kind of like more or less on these spectrums, but also, I feel like a lot of the like kind of anti-jealousy, anti-possessiveness that dogma is really about fear of control and fear of falling into a oppressive traditional mainstream model. And for me, I think that jealousy and possessiveness are just factors again on a spectrum.
People have that kind of naturally more or less. And then you work with that. You work with where you are and what your goals are.
And that's gonna mean that you have like more or less challenge in front of you. But also, I mean, I would love to hear some of your thoughts on relationship anarchy. I'm a little bit snarky about that. Tell me, give me the snarky. Oh, it's not a fair snarkiness.
It's just a reflexive snarkiness based on what I've seen. I think a lot of, I've seen a lot of people who identify as relationship anarchists actually be just fairly avoided and want to have a way of identifying. And not that being avoidant is also like something that can't be worked with. But it's more like, I feel like it's kind of like the hip way to say, well, I get to do whatever I want. And I think it also depends on like, again, what kind of social group you're in. Because again, I'm talking about like, I'm talking about like in radical queer groups where ideas about friendships being crucial relationships are not new. That's like not a revolutionary thought of like, oh, we don't just center our singular monogamous remote romantic partner. Like it's where I feel like we're much more used to having different kind of familial and relational structures that may or may not involve. sexuality for a period of time or not, or, you know, like those things are more in flux anyway. Yeah. So I think, you know, the basic concept of not hierarchizing relationships according to like, this is my, this is my central romantic sexual partner, and that's the top relationship. And then everything else is under that.
Mm hmm. I think that's great. And that's fair.
Mm hmm. But also at the end of the day, we all have time and energy limitations, and it doesn't have to be about a hierarchy of love or a hierarchy of desire or a hierarchy of importance. But we do have to figure out who do we spend time with. Yep. And we do have to know who's the person that we're going to call it 3am when we have a medical emergency.
And that's a very specific kind of prioritization. Yes. That, you know, if you're just talking about like, well, I have these three casual lovers, like that's not, that's not in the same ballpark, you know? Mm hmm.
No, I hear you completely. And then I think this is where that idea of jealousy, it might be attached to attachment, right? Of that secure base, like who's that person and not in the, I guess, the form of jealousy and this potential lack of time, energy that the other partner might have and how that strikes up these fears of insecure attachment that are, like you said, very valid because who's going to go to the ER with me at 3am if my partner, you know, has another partner and they're with them that night, you know, like who's going to go with me to the ER at 3am? Yeah. And also how does that then affect their partner if they have to get up in the middle of the night and run to you? And that the thing is that actually might all work out and that might be okay. Right. And it might suck to be alone in your bed having the medical emergency, but no, but at least you know, okay, your partner is reachable.
They will meet you there, whatever, whatever. But it's not, not going to have an effect. And the fact is that having a medical emergency in the middle of the night is already a fucking major thing that has an effect on your energy, your emotional sensitivity, how much work or parenting you can do, how present you can be. All of these things potentially for days, weeks, months after such an event and the more people that are involved and the more that, the more there's a negotiation in that very, very fragile and vulnerable time around feelings of security, priority, need, urgency.
Yeah. The more intense it's going to be for everyone. And I think that's just real. Mm hmm.
Mm hmm. And so sometimes also like my snarky comment is relationship anarchy is for people who don't have kids, but also aren't married and don't have a disability and or a chronic health issue. And you know what I mean?
Where it's like, sure, if you're young, able-bodied and, you know, like kind of like a slut around town. Cool. Yeah. Yeah.
But if you, but when things get to the like, the nitty gritty of life. Sure. Often I think emotional security is part of, and when I say security, I mean, I actually mean it's logistical. Yeah. I think sometimes the fact is, is that, and this is not, again, this is not me advocating for monogamy. Right. But I hear you.
Do you think that there's more to the emotional ramifications of logistics that I ever wanted to believe when I was in my twenties? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Do our schedules easily match up? Mm hmm.
Geographically, where are we? And is that to the relationships benefit or not? Some people are amazing.
Like some people's best spot is with a long distance relationship. And a lot of people know. Yeah. And some people can do it for a while. If there's monogamy, because they know that, although that means both people might sacrifice a big part of their sexuality for a period of time, that's the security that can keep them through that, that distance. And some people, it's the opposite of like, oh, I could never, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't imagine not fucking other people, like not fucking somebody for this amount of time.
And so I will continue this relationship with you while you go do your masters or, you know, have your army, whatever, but only if it's sexually non-monogamous at least or whatever. And the point is these all work differently for different people, but they are factors. Yes, you know. Yes, 100%. 100%.
Yes. Once you step into that community, your relationship has another metamorph and they have needs and then it suddenly, like you said, does affect you. Their availability does affect you and your space as well, right? And then it's almost like once you step into that community, you need your equal set of partners to fit into that space too. It suddenly becomes a whole lifestyle, a whole way of being, but that doesn't take into the reality that like if you have kids, you have less time availability to invest in all those relationships. If you're getting a doctorate, you have less time to do that. And so there are all these factors.
So then, you know, who has the tolerance for that? Yeah. Like, do you guys have different needs? Like, do you all have different needs as far as like who gets more time with partners who has to be working or parenting alone?
Is it fair and feminist? The way those things are broken up or even seen, you know, as elements of the relationship? It's complicated. Is there a commitment and a plan where it's like, okay, this is going to be this way for a set of years, but then there's going to be, you know, some switch or something like that. So uncommitted that you're just kind of like flying by the seat of your pants moment to moment. It's, I mean, the fact is, is it's complicated.
And it just exponentializes the energies, which also means the organization, which also means the, the spaces and the ways in which we affect each other. And I think a lot of people get into non monogamy kind of with this thought that, okay, well, whatever's happening over there is none of your business. Or, you know, that's not about you.
So you shouldn't have any, you know, input in that or whatever, whatever. And I think that people are magically adaptable and individual even within our kind of universality. So I don't want to say that, you know, certain things can't work for anyone. But for the most part, I think it's just more real to start with the assumption that any kind of energy that we share with others that's intense is going to affect any and all of our partners.
And we might be surprised how and vice versa. Yes. Yes. You are not alone in that. It is a system like you said.
So yeah, if your partner is having this really intense, you know, conflict with another partner, that's going to change their, that's going to change their emotional availability and energy for you to connect with you the next day. Right? Like you don't live in these silos. Like you are always affected. Yeah, most people are not that talented at making very, very compartmentalized emotional relationships. And frankly, I mean, the people in my life that I've seen that seem to be the best at that are people who are quite regular clients of sex workers. And I think that one of the ways that system can work for people is that the container of sex work, even if there are emotional and energetic exchange there, it's kept in that container. Yeah, I hear that. So that like even a client who has strong feelings, for instance, to like their, you know, their regular, the sex workers that they regularly see the container of the professional arrangement helps keep that energy potentially out of the marriage or at least a bit farther away.
But it also takes a lot of like, again, logistics around buffers, like giving everybody enough time in between dates to kind of ground themselves and come back to themselves also so that there isn't like just time confusions that maybe have nothing to do with love or sex, but then are so easily interpreted that way. Yeah. It's a big undertaking. Yes. Like, like any relationship, you know, that's that has commitment involved is a big undertaking.
And when you involve more people, it's just more. Yes. Yes.
Exponentially more complicated. And that's just a given reality. We're not saying that's good or bad.
You know, this might be the just the reality of what the givens are. You know, I think it was like Alan DeBottom, one of these philosophers who said, yeah, you can be in the monogamous relationship, feel the security and maybe feel a little sexually stifled, right? Or you can be in the non monogamous relationship and have all these complicated factors and you have sexual freedom, all this other stuff, but it comes with all this, it comes with all this complicated, like we're talking about the balancing, the time, the energy, all this stuff. And it's just the realities.
It's not good or bad either way, and you can choose either one. They just have different realities. Yeah, and I truly think that certain people are just more attuned and aligned towards certain models.
Yep, I see. And then, I mean, one thing that I, I feel like I used to think that there was like some, like it was math, like there was some formula way to find like, well, okay, that person's more monogamous, and that person's non-monogamous, but somehow if they could just figure out like the right combination of how often to meet with what kind of dates and, you know, these kinds of shared decisions, but these kinds of like, don't ask, don't tell situations. And, you know, some, some like long division with multiple, you know, X's and a complicated graph that anything could work out.
And the fact is like, I don't believe that anymore. I think that love can be felt and experienced in many different ways, but loving or relating as far as any kind of like ongoing sexual or romantic relationship, I think it has its limitations. And a lot of those limitations very annoyingly are about the outside world. They're not even that personal.
Some of them are and they should be respected. And not shamed because I know that like, in, you know, in a monogamy centric world, anything that's not monogamy, even just, you know, dating around can sometimes be, you know, a source of huge amounts of judgment and shame, not to mention like being a slut or whatever, whatever. And in a, in a non monogamy centric world, the same goes with people who are not, you know, fucking enough people or dating enough people or have enough like long-term partners in many different countries or whatever. And that either which way it's not helpful. It's not helpful to like that kind of outside pressure only hurts the individuals who are living within these systems because what's really helpful is trying to like know as best as possible, like what's right and real for you, including what you don't know and being able to say like, okay, I'm figuring this out or I'm confused or I don't know and working from there.
And I know that because I certainly have tried to be a different kind of non monogamous lover, dator partner for many, many years. And it's caused a lot of pain and harm, you know. Yeah. And I don't think that's a narrative that's discussed enough, right? That's why I'm saying it because I'm a child of the underworld. So I'm like, let's talk about the unsaid bummer topics.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, which is good. I'm not here to discuss the orgy. I'm here to discuss the week after the orgy when all the shit hits the fan. Yes. And that's a real reality and we're doing a whole disservice if we're not talking about this piece, we're just glorifying and we're not talking about both sides of the coin, you know.
And having said that, there are moments in which the glory of the orgy is so glorious that the fucking month long fallout from the orgy is still worth it, you know? Yeah. And there are moments where Tim Persian is real and people have their moments of peace and security and safety and you know, it's like with parenting, you know? Do you know how much like shit and sleeplessness, I mean like literally feces and sleeplessness and annoyance and pain in your body and just like very rude situations you're in daily. And then you get these little moments where like your kid crawls up onto your lap and is like, I have a secret.
My secret is I love you. And like out of nowhere, exactly, right? And you're like, okay, well that was like two weeks of hell and that moment fucking worth it.
Bring on the next two weeks, you know? Sometimes it's like that. And I think, you know, depending on how people are living, sometimes it's way more calm. You know, there are like very long term, you know, polycules that are not young movers and shakers that are, you know, full of speed and speed, I mean, not the drug, but the actual velocity. And yeah, and need and lust and wildness and they, you know, have a schedule, everybody has a steady job.
Yeah, they do. And except for when life throws a curveball, it's like, okay, well, Thanksgiving was yours last year. And so that means in 2025, we're gonna be at Mary's house and, you know, whatever. And it's like, they've worked that out, but that usually means that everyone involved is kind of living and operating emotionally on a very similar and very peace. And there's a lot of sameness within the rest of their lives.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And if you try to connect with- From what I've observed. Right, and if you try to connect with that person, right, at least from my experience, it's like, oh, they have availability in three weeks. Yeah, you have to fit within the on-go, within the pre-established system. And you have to be able to be like, uh-huh, and for now, you're gonna be the once every three weeks, and you're gonna be the once every three weeks, two hour coffee date. Yeah.
Because if it's not that, it's too much disruption. For at least a few months, until there can be a meeting. Yeah, and it's hard. It's hard to build a relationship like that. It almost creates lack of availability. Well, it depends how much patience and how much need you have. You know what I mean? For some people, they might be perfect.
That's not good for me. For some people, they might be like, look, I'm in a deep healing process, or I have another relationship, or I have a lot going on at work or whatever, and I do want this kind of connection. And these people seem great.
And also every three weeks, a two hour coffee date, where maybe we make out, that's the right pace for me. And there are other people where that's gonna make you insane and then completely disinterested. So, yeah, sure. And also talk back to you in 25 years, you might be at a different place. Absolutely, yeah, craving something different because the only inevitable piece is change, right?
So that's all I said, I will change. Yeah, yeah, and I think this- And that's true for individuals and relationships. I mean, everything that I've seen and heard about long-term monogamous relationships, it doesn't seem like stasis is the norm. No, because what I know from psychology, like my theoretical orientation is that we all grow and change through relationships. And I mean that fully, like even the internalized relationships of people we have in our heads and how we interact with those along with people in real life. So like, when you say relationships change you, I'm like, yeah, that's the whole mode for psychology. That's how the therapy relationship works. That's how all these relationships work. So like, yes. And I think part of me likes relationship anarchy because you could be a monogamous relationship anarchist. Which at first I was like, that sounds oxymoronic, right?
Like what? But I think part of the Elise philosophy and idea of it is that as long as it's constructed with consciousness and co-created with other people and decided together rather than the relationship escalator, that's still a relationship anarchist principle, right? Of trying to have anogamy but also balance all your other relationships.
And when you start to think about it philosophically it might also contradict itself, right? Like to be monogamous, put someone at a hierarchy that maybe is different. It's... But also it can, I mean, I can see that working as not just a singular, assumed, like predetermined, unspoken hierarchy, you know?
This is what we're talking about. That's like the main, I would say that from what I understand I'm not a relationship anarchy expert. I'm just a observer and snarker. But that's what I understand is like the kind of, the antithesis is like a, there's a word I'm looking for that I can't find. But basically an assumed, uninvestigated, falling into this is what this means and this is how this goes.
And we all know how this works and how it was. Yes. So I do think that there's room for monogamy or many things there. And again, like theoretically I am a relationship anarchist. It's just that most of the practice I've seen makes me feel snarky.
Yeah, sure, absolutely. I'm talking about plenty of things that people that I love and respect practice. And that's just my own personal snark. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't mean that it's wrong or it's bad. It's based on my own damage.
That's all. Like for instance, I don't like the word partner as the default word for anyone you've ever fucked or dated. I have a snark against that because I feel like that makes every, it's like humble bragging for non-monogamous people in my mind. Like if you're like, oh, well, my other partner over here and my partner there, it just, it sounds like a collection of humans that just like everyone wants to be with you and everyone wants to be your partner. And to me also, because this works for me, I like categories and differentiations and some, whether it's hierarchy or I think about it as like concentric circles and like the inner circle being mostly around intimacy, but also time and also commitment and meaning like, what have we committed to each other's and also expectation and also obligation, which I don't see as necessarily negative either.
I think that's real. We all have expectations of each other's and that committed relationships should have obligation within them. It just should be things that are as much as possible intentionally committed to as opposed to just assumed or something that doesn't fit someone, but because they're called that term, they feel they have to be the one who, I don't know, whatever fixes the car. And so for me, it's like people that are not in the innermost circle of my relationality, I wouldn't call a partner because to me, that belies something that isn't what partner means. Like partner to me means there's some agreement of teamwork and life.
Yeah. Whereas like I like the differentiation of a lover because that for me is like the focus is on dates, potentially sex, maybe romance, maybe not, but it doesn't sound like there's a huge time or commitment or intertwining of life. And that's important to me. It helps me emotionally manage myself to know where I fit and where other people fit.
And that that can be also, again, if it's consensual and intentional, then that can be good for people. Other people I know want things much more either the same or egalitarian or vague. It's just not my vibe. I just feel like when everyone calls any kind of non-friend only, non-familial relationship a partnership, it tends not to be what I understand a partner to mean.
Yeah. And maybe that's just my problem, but also the thing that gets under my skin is it feels like a way to socially or like an ego boost, like how many partners and it's something that I feel like often ends up making other people feel like basically that number of partners is the measure of success and is a value judgment on people. Who have the most partners or the most partners the longest? Clearly they are the better people and they're the ones that should therefore attract more partners and also the ones that other people measure themselves against. And again, I think to say like, oh, well we shouldn't measure ourselves against other people. Well, sure, great.
That would be helpful. And I also find it bullshit. I mean, it's a great practice to work on doing that less or at least to notice, okay, what are the, where the issues, where that tends to come up? And for me, clearly partnership is one of them.
So that's part of why it rubs me the wrong way because I am a person that when I hear someone has any number higher than one partner, I'm like, I feel envy. It's kind of like, you know, how in the 2000s it suddenly became the mark of importance was shown by how busy you were. And before then, when you met someone and you were talking to them, it was not cool to say, when they said, oh, how are you to say, oh, I'm so busy. And through the 2000s and the 2010s, the teens, the more busy you were, the more important and like higher value of a person that you seemed to be. And I feel like it's that, but with relationships. Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I'm truly a poly person when I have three or five. And also like, it implies your great at sex, extremely emotionally intelligent, fun and pleasant to be around, like stable, probably financially, mentally. Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, I hear you, yeah. If there are many people in the world who are single and don't want to be, there are many people who are recently divorced and feel like failures at love. And then there's whoever bopping around, talking about their seven partners. Like it implies that somehow you are the one to be with as far as sharing, I don't know, a bed, time, fun, companionship, et cetera. And I think we all go in and out of times when there's more potential and less on the table or more prioritization or less around dating, lovers, partnership, et cetera, et cetera. But yeah, it just, it brings a bad image to mind. It makes me think of fake feminist cis men who buzz around being professionally poly with mostly quite younger partners. And you know what I mean?
Like we were like, okay, great. And of course that's not the only type of person who uses that language or has that reality, like lives in that space. That's just my snarky image. Yeah, but it's a very fair critique, right?
I agree with you here of like it's not really reflective. If you're just throwing that word out all the time, reflective of the level of commitment and other things. And then it's also like we have to respect like what language people use and how it works for them. But I think there is this fair critique of like, what are you doing with those relationships?
Are you respecting them? Yeah, how much time do you spend with each other? How often do you see that person?
Like how often do you see someone in order to even talk on the phone that they are a partner? Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean?
Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And maybe that's the limitation of language. But I feel like if we got to Paramours and Metamours, we're creative enough, we can expound upon this. This concept. Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe other words other than partner that kind of reflect like the different levels of commitment and time and energy.
I mean, there are many words. Yeah. Lovers, date, boyfriend, person friend. Yeah. Sweetie, beloved, partner, betrothed.
Like there are many, many, many words, you know? Life partner. Yeah.
Yeah. And I think for me, like the biggest thing I hear and hope to like maybe further through my work and all of this podcast discussion is like the importance of co-constructing whatever dynamic you're doing and being conscious about it and knowing the availability of options and doing that construction consciously. Like that's all I really want to promote, you know?
I'm very into that. And I also just want to say it takes a lot of time and effort and energy. Yeah. And that's not equally available to everyone.
Yep. People who are mostly, most of their time and energy in the day is taking up with making enough money to feed their family or pay their rent are just not going to have the same amount of opportunity to co-construct whatever kind of relationship realities. And it's also about, you know, even knowing that that's a possibility.
Whereas like in some ways it's easy to think, well, in any relationship, of course, you have to discuss things, you go in and talk about what you want and things like that. But a lot of people truly, the script is so clear without it ever having been spoken, that it truly may take years to realize that they have the option to have some authorship in that script. That scares me. And I know that to be true.
Yes, 100%. But I think that that, I think, I mean, this is not, again, this is not my lived experience. But when I think about, when I think about especially people who have grown up in fairly homogenous, fairly sheltered communities, I think that that can be true. Yes, 100 % to not question the status quo of how this relationship works and where I go with it. And there's just so many assumed labels, even the definition of monogamy, right?
Like that is an assumed label. Where does the boundary actually end for you? Can you hold other hands with people? Can you kiss people on the cheek? Can you go on coffee dates with other people? Is it the same sex?
Can you look at someone? Exactly. What about corn? Exactly. I mean, I think that that's a huge thing. question actually for a lot of monogamous couples.
What about form? I mean, I've heard that many therapists are faced with this as a thing that nobody wants to talk about. But that's a huge subject in people's heterosexual monogamous relationships is is porn a breach of the monogamy is porn a betrayal of the relationship. And the gender dynamics of that, sometimes the financial dynamics of that, you know, the conceptual values of that, how partners perceive the porn industry, what they think around sex work in general, etc, etc, etc. There's a lot of assumptions there that might fall in very, very different places that nobody even realizes that they have, until suddenly, there's a huge conflict with their spouse, that seems so clear, and also so emotionally loaded from their side.
And yet their spouse use it completely differently. And that's, you know, that's, that's, yeah, exactly. Yes, problem of things that were transparency, isn't seen as kind of a, yeah, transparency and co creation isn't isn't seen as a kind of necessary aspect, right, the relating, right, it's just supposed to work out. I'm just in this monogamous relationship, and it's just is what it is, right. And so like, I think that's like, if I see your ex, right, exactly, can you get coffee with your, I mean, all of this. And, you know, even that I was recently watching a session about emotion focused therapy, where like the whole couples therapy work for an example in class was literally that one part of the couple had thought about reaching out to the ex and told her husband about it. And it created such a dynamic they came into therapy.
And that's what I was watching, right? So I'm just sitting here like, whoa, like, you can't even think about potentially getting coffee with your ex without it potentially creating this whole disruption, which like, that's fine if that's the dynamics you create. But like, we need to be talking about that. And so like, when I think about like, what I want to do as a psychologist in the future in the space is like, how can we bring these conversations up so that there's not these significant pain points that happen because of the assumed meaning of what monogamy or non monogamy means, right? Like all of these pieces have multiple layers to discuss about how they unfold and what they mean to the people involved. Yeah, because there's a big difference between I don't trust that X. It triggers something in me to think about you two spending time together.
It feels very uncomfortable to me. That's my feeling around that particular relationship. And why would you ever meet up with your ex? The rule is we're together now. Therefore, that person is irrelevant to you, your life. Yeah, because the rule is once we are bonded, that's it.
You have no need for any other connection with anyone you've ever had a connection kind of in this similar vein before. Yeah. Like those are, you know, really different approaches. And it's good to know which one you're working with.
Yeah. And to talk about it and to have that space. The only book I've seen thus far that kind of like takes this view is called designer relationships. It's kind of in vain, I guess, in theory to some of like what I like about relationship anarchy of this ability to construct and create. And that sort of book actually kind of talked about that in a way that doesn't necessarily just outright bash monogamy, right?
There's a lot of non monogamy books that will just bash monogamy for like being too Yeah, I mean, that's the other thing. This like superiority. Yeah. I think I mean, I think that unfortunately, in a lot of oppressed and invalidated and just outside of kind of like the mainstream norm, any any kind of lifestyle or subculture or, you know, way of living in the world, there's a lot of defensive superiority, which makes so much perfect sense because, you know, when the whole world tells you that's immature, that's stupid, that's impossible, that's weird, that's gross, that's wrong, that's morally wrong, that makes you a bad person that makes you a greedy person that makes you a lazy person that makes you a very sick and depraved person, then of course, that puts you in a defensive position, even to have an interest or curiosity. And then, of course, you need to have some space in which to explore that interest or curiosity at your own pace, while potentially making mistakes, not being sure, etc, etc. And it helps to feel, okay, well, this is actually superior. This is superior than the norm. And that's why, despite this or that or whatever, it's worth it to pursue. But I think in the end, I feel like I think about this a lot in as far as queerness goes. There's a lot of defensive queer superiority that makes perfect sense, but doesn't actually serve the community or the individuals. It's also just like a marker of a space or an identity that feels oppressed and is trying to reach empowerment, but is still under oppression, and hasn't had the time or the rights or the privilege or the safety enough to kind of mature beyond its own adolescence. I mean, I hear you, I'm going to validate right back that there are literal minority identity models that talk about this about how you, yes, and psychology that talk about this, how you go to this point of feeling significant defense that everyone should be this, and this is the only way to be in this like really strong positionality on your whatever minority it is, and sometimes it's culture or queerness. I have not done the research on seeing if there is one specifically created for non-monogamy people. But if you follow the patterns of like other cultural identities that are minorities, like racial identities and queerness, they do have this identity model that talks about that at this point. But it's not just minority, it's marginalization. Yeah, exactly.
As far as like the way that I see it. I hear you. I don't have an academic theory about this, but just from my thinking and my observation, like it's specifically around the stigma, you know, because there can be non-judged and non-opressed minorities. But without the stigma, there isn't the need to protect and to kind of like hold your own space with superiority, because it really feels like the only weapon. Yeah, I hear you. Yeah, it's just that could that could work. Yep. Yep. Yep. Exactly. And so then getting to that next stage in the quote-unquote identity model and even stages is always like pushed back on, right?
Because it is this is not linear. It can go back forth. No, it doesn't seem like a stage so much as a state. Like there's a state of defensiveness and there's a state of maybe like a more confident empoweredness.
Mm hmm. It's not always about in reaction to the norm or in reaction to the oppressor, but it's more like, OK, what are we doing? What do we want to do with this? Like we're not even thinking so much about the norm or the oppressor. Right. Right.
And then to have that security and that freedom now. Right. Right. I know what I'm doing. You can do what you're doing and that does not threaten what I am doing. Right.
Yeah. But also, I mean, again, that's not completely within the power of the of the marginalized or minority community. Like that's very much, I think it seems like it's very much a function of is there allowed to be that space and that freedom? Is that security permitted within the norm?
Does the norm and the mainstream make the space or not? Right. Right.
How can we move past that defensive place if we're literally have to defend ourselves? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, remember early feminists coming out and being like, you can't be a feminist and have sex with a man.
You are a failure to feminism unless you're a lesbian, right? That same sort of like, if you're in this, this is the only way that you can exist. Like that same sort of push and defensiveness. That's a lot of like territory protectiveness via binary. Yeah.
Like in or out, you know, are you safe or are you the enemy? Right. And like, I mean, to me, that speaks of a trauma state.
It's basically like, you know, kind of like whole communities reacting, you know, from like, like a generalized trigger state. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yes. And so then how can we move forward from that state to have more acceptance for the diversity of how people show up, right? Like there are multiple ways to live this life, multiple good ways to live this life. And the way that I do it, you do it is not going to work for any other person because we're all so in our own experience of this world. And so being able to live.
like let go of that, I think might be like that next step. I think there's a lot of emotional intelligence evolution that's kind of just started, but people have not yet really come to terms with the fact that fighting for survival is not where we need to be. Like we don't literally need to be there as far as food and shelter. We're there because people are hoarding the resources, and but it's not that, okay, there's literally not enough for everyone. So somehow shifting, like people just not wanting to be billionaires anymore.
People not wanting to kind of like live on top of a pile. And I think we might be getting closer to a world war with the internet, this mass communication, the power that we do have has a collective, as we're more connected through the means of the internet. I wonder like in the next, maybe not in our lifetimes, right?
But in the next couple hundred, 200 years, like what sort of paradigm the human race will be living in, it's gonna be an interesting world. This has been such a lovely conversation. I loved all the different ways that this has unfolded and this is why when you ask like, what do you wanna talk about? I'm like, I just show up, we go where we go.
And I love that natural unfolding, that co-creating together. There is one closing question. I do ask everyone on the podcast, unless you feel like there's anything else that's still resonating that you wanna say.
No, hit me. So what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal? Body insecurity is one of the most normal things for humans as far as most universally experienced, whether that's about the way we look, smell, taste, move, sound, feel in our bodies. I think that we are all holding some sort of message that whatever our body is or does is not quite right. And the actual thing that's normal is that bodies are constantly in flux and there's so many different ways for them to be, for them to be beautiful, for them to act disgusting, for them to be amazing in their functionality, whether they do the things that we expect them to or not. And that I think there's a narrative that basically the higher you get towards the privileged beauty ideal, the less insecurities people have.
And that's not true. I think the insecurities that we have about our bodies is more a function on how much the close network of people and our upbringing expressed insecurities about their bodies, how much they body shamed us, how much they body shamed other people on the street or in their world, and how much the media in our world has worked with body shame as a tool, has weaponized body shame as a tool for money making, for titillation, or for exclusivity, elitism, and that actually, especially, Volvic people, there's so few of us that get away with no body shame. And some of the people that you think should have it the least are living the most oppressed on the inside. And that often the other thing that really works to combat body shame has nothing to do with hygiene or weight or bone structure or race. It has to do with how much work you've done with yourself and what kind of people around you and how much work they've done with themselves to create a different space around body appreciation and acceptance.
Yes. And that includes everything, genitalia, gender, hair, things about the pain in the world that exists around hair, hair color, hair texture, hair quantity, thickness or thinness, where it is, it's unbelievable when you think about that we're mammals and all of us, except for those with alopecia, known to be hairy as part of our basic special makeup. And yet, like these tiny nuances have been literally the site of torture and banishment and pain and suffering for centuries.
And that's just hair. I don't even talk about assholes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I think that that's a thing that I wish people knew more normal, that body shame and insecurity, almost nobody escapes it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's not the final story. It's not unavoidable.
It's not something you have to live under your whole life. Right, yeah, as you were saying that, I was thinking about Audrey Hepburn and the documentary that came out about her, where there were these intimate interviews where she was talking about how insecure she was about her looks. And she is quoted as the icon of beauty, whatever you wanna say about that time. And so to hear her even be like, no, I feel like I'm this scraggly, whatever, to know that even someone with that level of cultural prowess at that time to have that, I think is normalizing that. And like, yeah, what level of space could we have in our experience if we could let go of these things?
But it's so hard. And I think for me, even starting this podcast, I know the first time when I was asking these people, I was like, yeah, like nipple hairs, because if I have a dark nipple hair, somehow it means that I'm not a woman or I'm a gross woman. These are very real things, at least, that I have experienced.
And it's hard to let these go because there are such stereotypical ideas of what it means to be a beautiful person in this world. But we're all pieces of nature. And when I look outside, I don't see the same leaf over and over again, or the same rows. You see this dramatic smattering of so many different types. And we look at all that and say that's so beautiful. But then when it comes to us and our nature, we're so... And again, like you said, it's the community, it's the media, it's all of these pieces. But wow, like what space would we have if we could let that go? Psychologically, even to love other people when we're not so in our head being like, oh, I'm ugly because I have this and that, just bringing you down.
It's profound to think about. I mean, personally, I'm in favor of completely nude intergenerational cross-ethnic saunas as like a regular practice. Yeah, to just normalize that. But that's just me. It just truly helps to see a wide range of other bodies that are not trying to sell you anything. Yeah. At different ages, from different types of people, and they're not sexualized, and they're not there to sell you anything. Have you heard?
Just be able to see what the range of bodies looks like. Have you heard of Style Like You? No. I recommend this YouTube channel that I love. They also have a podcast, but they have these videos of people, it's mostly fashion based, but they come in and ask them, like, oh, what does your fashion say about you?
You know, all that sort of piece. And then as they do the interview, they end up taking off more of their clothes until they get down. So I recently watched one with Hattie, I forget her last name, but she's 86, and she gets fully down and talks about her sexual experiences and all that sort of stuff. And it is, at least for me, if we can't have that world where the sauna is an option, like I appreciate, at least on YouTube, this opportunity to see an 86 year old woman in her full body and to talk about what it's like to be in her body and why she loves it. Like that, for me, is really great. That's a gift that should be more easily accessible and that I wish we could give each other. Yeah.
Yeah. It was nice to talk to you. It was lovely, lovely, lovely to chat with you. Is there anywhere before you go that you want to plug for people that are connecting with you and want to learn more about your work? You can look at my work on www.sadyloon .com. I'm on sex school. There are many of the weird, queer, feminist, and art porn, BDSM, and many different genres that I'm in on pinklabel.tv.
You can also just Google me. Keep your ears out for my upcoming podcast. Yes.
And I hope everybody gets to take a nap. Yeah. Yes, rest is resistance, right? Yeah. If you enjoyed today's episode, the Nevis of Five Star Review, wherever you listen to your podcast and if you're a part of the anarchist community, then follow us on Instagram or nominate a guest for the show by sending in a letter to modernanarchypodcastatgmail.com. Otherwise, I'll see you next week.
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