209. Relationship Anarchist: Juno Aventurine

[00:00:00] Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole.

 On today's episode, we have Juno join us for a relationship anarchy research conversation. Together we talk about embracing the finitude of our humanness. Learning to communicate our desires and deconstructing the intimacy escalator. Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.

My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of the Pleasure Practice supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and. Intimate relationships. Dear listener. Ah, you know, I love these conversations.

You know, I love talking about relationship anarchy. Uh, what a joy. I feel so delighted each time that one of you listeners, trust me to come onto the show, to fill out the form and join me on Zoom and have a conversation. I mean, ugh, what a joy to get to learn with you and co-create resources for the movement, for relationship anarchy with you.

So, thank you, Juno. Thank you to all the other past guests on the Relationship Anarchy series. Truly, I am growing and learning with you, so thank you. And dear listener, if you are new to this series. Hi. This is a continuation of my dissertation, which is about 200 pages on relationship anarchy. That is the first research study on it.

It's published now. Wow. Dear listener, we've come a long journey. It's published and it's also available on my website for free if you wanna download it. And, uh, read all of the nerdy content I've got on relationship. Anarchy. And if you do wanna come on the show, the form to submit your answers to the same questions and to come and talk to me is also on there.

And yeah, the intimacy escalator, if you are familiar with the relationship escalator, this is similar, although I am going into the realm of intimacy and sexuality and the ways that we often have an escalator there as well. And so I definitely get into that today with Juno in this episode. But I am also currently writing a email for my listserv, all of you pleasure activists on the listserv on Modern Anarchy.

Hey. Hello. Uh, it's so fun to create different art forms, right? I have this podcast space and you can hear my words and more of my natural conversation voice. And then I also have a space, right, with the email Listserv, where I can craft more intentional words on some of these concepts and ideas and share that with you.

So I'll be on the listserv, look out for that email coming soon. And if you're interested, hey, dear listener, you should come join. I've got lots of fun content on the listserv and uh, yeah, we are growing and learning together in that space as well. So. Ah. Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure or join the email listserv, Hey, hey.

Or submit a relationship anarchy submission to come onto the show, then you can head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all my Patreon supporters, you are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.

So thank you. If you wanna join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, then you can head on over to patreon.com/modern Anarchy podcast, also linked in the show notes below. And with that dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.

So the first question that I like to ask each guest is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:04:43] Juno: Um, I would introduce myself as a consent and connection facilitator. Mm-hmm. Uh, I'm also a, a communication geek and a conflict geek. Very much. I'm a black, uh, queer, disabled, uh, gender non-conforming woman.

And I'm also a writer, a zine maker. And I'm newly calling myself a rest enthusiast because rest, yeah. Rest is like, so important in my life and I'm centering it more.

[00:05:13] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:14] Juno: And I wanna like, honor that.

[00:05:16] Nicole: Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, welcome. You are definitely in the right place today. Yeah. Thank you. Of course.

Of course. And so I'm excited to talk about relationship anarchy and this, this first question, it's big, right? What is relationship anarchy for you?

[00:05:35] Juno: Yeah, for me, I think of relationship anarchy as challenging hierarchical social norms and, um, systems of power and the way that they impact all of our relationships,

[00:05:48] Nicole: right?

[00:05:49] Juno: And also the way that our personal relationships often reinforce a lot of those hierarchies and systems of oppression. And so trying to be aware of that and deconstruct it and find, uh, find ways to, to live and relate to people outside of those hierarchies, um, as well as like dismantling them within the larger society.

Right? Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that there's like so many hierarchies that, that are addressed within relationship anarchy, like, uh, racism and white supremacy, heteronormativity, uh, fat phobia and desirability politics. And then of course, there's the really huge emphasis on, um, un recognizing heteronormativity as a system of oppression in a hierarchical way of relating, um mm-hmm.

And trying to challenge that as well. And like the way that the couple unit is so often centered in our lives and prioritized above all of our other relationships.

[00:06:49] Nicole: Right, right, right, right, right. Yeah, absolutely. And I think about the ways that it's so deep within our unconscious, oh, whoa. You know? Yeah.

[00:07:02] Juno: Like we've been conditioned to, yeah. To, yeah. To engage in mono normativity and center romantic and sexual relating. As the most important thing. And yeah, it's really hard to, to kind of, um, deprogram from that within ourselves.

[00:07:19] Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I find it to be a very mindful practice in that way because, you know, my initial first thought or my initial first desire is something to maybe reflect on with curiosity, right?

Mm-hmm. Because there are so many pieces that are moving here. I'm a fish in the water in these systems, and so often my first thought is a reflection of that system. And so this bit of mindfulness to it of like, okay, I have this desire. Where's it coming from? Is this in alignment with the values of relationship anarchy?

And that, that sort of practice of reflection that I continue to find, um, in the practice every day, truly.

[00:07:57] Juno: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:07:59] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:07:59] Juno: I relate to that very much.

[00:08:01] Nicole: Yeah. Even a journey, I'm sure we could reflect on the journey, the expansion journey, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so I'm curious for you, you know, how do you practice it?

What does that look like for you?

[00:08:16] Juno: Yeah. Um, for me, I really center friendship in my life, and I do that rather than centering partnership.

[00:08:26] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:27] Juno: Uh, rather than centering romantic and sexual coupledom. Mm-hmm. Um, and that doesn't mean that I don't experience. Romantic feelings with people or sexual experiences with people.

It's just that I don't use those experiences to signify that those should be the most important relationships in my life. Yeah. My friendships can look a lot of different ways. They can involve varying, uh, levels and kinds of emotional and physical intimacy. And I personally don't use any other labels to, to mark, you know, those levels of intimacy.

Um, I just call everyone a friend. Mm-hmm. And that for me helps me to, um, it helps me to deprogram from some of like the expectations Sure. That I think often come along with a lot of relationship labels that are like, associated with the relationship escalator. Yeah. So it helps me like stay, stay focused on, on my, my role as part of like a network of friends.

And as part of that network I'm also. Really cared for. So I consider myself to be part of like a, a community care network.

[00:09:36] Nicole: Hmm.

[00:09:37] Juno: And myself and a lot of my friends, we practice relationship anarchy by trying to, to live according to the principle that everyone is deserving of getting their basic care needs met, regardless of how much money they make or how much they work.

Um, which is really important to me as a disabled person, and it's been really hard for me to support myself, um, and be independent under capitalism with these conditions. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's hard for so, so many people. Like that's the nature of capitalism is that Yeah. It's, it creates struggle and creates a lot of suffering for people.

Mm-hmm. And I'm really lucky that I am part of this network of people who share a lot of anti-capitalist values and who share the value of like, taking care of friends, um mm-hmm. Who. Have like, supported me significantly and long term, uh, because that is part of our values. And so,

[00:10:36] Nicole: yeah.

[00:10:36] Juno: Yeah, I think that, like me being part of this mutual aid network is a way that I practice relationship anarchy as well.

[00:10:43] Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. As you were describing that network, that community, that web, the mutual aid, I was just feeling this very deep like, ah, like this, this holding right, this holding in terms of, uh, support and, and, and knowing that you have so many people around you that are going to support you, that you could lean on.

I mean, the exhale that gives me and my body under these systems is, is transformational. How, how has that felt for you?

[00:11:13] Juno: Um, it's felt so fulfilling. Yeah. And yeah, like, it feels, it's, gosh, yeah, I have so many terms. Um, it gives me hope. Mm-hmm. Um. It's really challenging. A lot of internalized ableism and classism Sure.

That I realized I've had toward myself. Um, so it's, it's healing because I'm being given the message that I am worthy, I have value as a human being, even if I don't live up to all of these, like, capital standards or like standards of, you know, growing up to build a, a nuclear family. Right. Like, I'm not doing that Right.

But I'm still like highly valued by, by my friends. And that feels, that feels really good. Mm-hmm. And I want more people to be able. To experience that in the world. Yeah.

[00:11:59] Nicole: I think it's wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. When you see that vision out of more people experiencing that, that love, that connection, that ability to, you know, take away these, you know, cultural scripts of meaning making around value, right.

Under capitalism, I, I see that world as much more connected, much more dancing and giggling and, and, and much more community focused, right? Yeah, definitely.

[00:12:25] Juno: Yeah. I think that that relationship anarchy is definitely an avenue to building that community that's very central to it, and I think that community meets so many more of our needs often than, than the mono normative relationship ideal can.

Yeah. Even because I was thinking like. One of the damaging things about hierarchy and like the hierarchy of like monogamy and the nuclear family mm-hmm. Is that it cuts us off from relationships. Mm-hmm. Like it tells us these are the only right ways to have relationships and these types of people you shouldn't engage with.

There's a lot of like stereotypes,

[00:13:06] Nicole: right.

[00:13:06] Juno: And so I think that it really cuts us off from like being able to access ways of getting our needs met, whether it's like connection, intimacy, sexuality, or just like food, right? So yes,

[00:13:19] Nicole: yes, yes. We need books on that. Like literally that right there, right. Fo Foley.

There's so much there. We could spend hours talking about the different ways that. Different parts of ourselves as well as resources, right? Are met through different connections. And because of the relationship escalator and modern normativity, yeah. We have such a strict, uh, box of like who these people are and what they can mean to us and how you're supposed to relate, right?

Which there's a lot of suffering in those dynamics, right? Mm-hmm. And so we see that, we see the research, we see a lot of suffering and how isolated people are in these like nuclear setups these days. Um, and so yeah, just the relationship anarchy being in such a deep investment in community and being around, you know, these circles, these circles of lovers, circles of people that are all meaningful to us.

And so I'm curious for you how the journey of using the label friendship has felt. I, I, when I first heard about relationship anarchy and using friend, I think there was such a feisty part of me that was like, yeah, but. There's a difference. There's a difference. You know, the friend and this like partner.

Like there's a difference, you know? And I think I've gotten much more flexible with it and like seeing like, wow, okay, there is a lot of power to using the word friend intentionally. Mm-hmm. Because it makes me do a lot of deconstruction around. Like you were saying, the expectations of this relationship.

And then from there, if I'm co-creating relationship and we wanna choose to use a label of lover, friend, whatever speaks to us. You know, buddy, I don't even know. You know, like from there, just asking like, what does that label mean to you? What does it mean to me? And co-creating that together. But I'm just curious if you two had like a hard time stepping into the friendship label, like I did at first as, as a, as a way of relating to your community.

[00:15:12] Juno: Um, for me it was actually surprisingly easy. Cool. I love that. And I don't know why.

[00:15:17] Nicole: It just, that's great. That's great. I've struggled the whole damn way to

[00:15:22] Juno: Yeah. Yeah. It just really, yeah, there was something about like the phase of life that I was in, just where my mind was at where relationship anarchy.

Yeah. And like that idea of like calling everybody a friend and thinking of it that way. I just slid into it so amazing organically. Yeah. And I know that is, that isn't like most people's experience, but, um, yeah, I immediately was like, yeah, this is right for me. Um, mm. Yeah. I don't feel the need to, to kind of like communicate to, to other people in the world through labels.

Right, right. What, like kind of relationship status I have. Like I'm not feeling the need for that relationship status marker. That I think often is meant to like, give people information in a very, like, quick way. Like, right, well, are you having sex? Right? How close are you? Is this a, a person who is important in your life?

How should I treat them? I want to challenge the idea that people in my life who may have a role that's similar to like a partner, like may look like a partner to pe to other people. That those are the most important people in my life who other people should treat with, like more respect or like give more attention to those relationships that I have with them.

[00:16:39] Nicole: Mm-hmm. Um,

[00:16:40] Juno: I wanna challenge couple privilege in that way.

[00:16:42] Nicole: Sure.

[00:16:43] Juno: Um, so like all of my friendships are important and I want them all to like be recognized as important by other people.

[00:16:49] Nicole: Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. Absolutely. And so I would imagine, and this is something I definitely saw in my dissertation research, is that that brings more of this vitality to life, right?

The mono normative frame of, oh, I'm single, I'm single, I have no relationships around me at all. Right? Single. And I'm desperately looking for someone to a frame of, wow, I have an abundance of relationships. I have so many different types and facets, and wow. When you start to see your relational network and that fullness, it's like, it's like turning the saturation hue foley up.

[00:17:27] Juno: Yeah. I definitely feel that way. I do not consider myself single. I write pants that I would be considered single within the Yeah. Mono normative world or whatever. Heard. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I have like a multitude of connections and, and so like deeply cared for and caring toward other people.

Mm-hmm. So yeah, it's, it feels very strange. That other people would consider me single right now, actually.

[00:17:53] Nicole: Right, exactly. Right. The, the different paradigms that people will see us in compared to our own Right. And the disconnect between that. Mm-hmm. I'm thinking too about the ways that, so when I move through the world and I tell people about relationship anarchy, there's a, well, there's a lot of different reactions.

Let's just, yeah. You know, there's a lot of different reactions. The joy of when you find someone who says, me too, and you go, damn, wow. Hi. You know? But for the people who don't practice relationship anarchy or are less familiar with it, sometimes I get this, the, um, I don't wanna say pushback. This. This question of, or this doubt that they could do it all kind of circling around?

Well, yeah, but like the, the no hierarchy thing, like I just, I just could never do that. There's no way that I couldn't have hierarchy in my relationships and commitments. It's usually like tied together in the response. Um, mm-hmm. And so I'd love to take some time to talk about the ways that relationship anarchy is full of commitments, a big commitment to community, and also the ways that, like when we're talking about anti hierarchy, what does that look like?

Because it is inevitable that in our, you know, community of relationships, that we're gonna have levels of prioritization and closeness, right? There's like 8 billion people on the planet, I don't know the names of all 8 billion. And so that creates a structure of, of intimacy and priority that could look like, wow, I know these people more than the 8 billion, you know, on the other side that I don't know their name, I know this person's story and these pieces, or I see them this often.

And so. I'm curious how you understand hierarchy and, and what that looks like and what we're actually trying to dismantle here.

[00:19:35] Juno: I love that question. Yeah. And it's a question that I have gotten a lot as well. Um, yeah. And so I, I distinguish between hierarchy and just prioritization, right? So I think that prioritization of certain people in our lives can be hierarchical, but it isn't inherently.

And I think that when it becomes hierarchical, it's due to the prioritization, maybe like serving a system of power that that tells us these people should always right, be prioritized right in your life. And that is the social norm. And if you prioritize these people in your life, you will be given more respect, more legitimacy, more legal, uh, legal resources, um, economic resources, whatever it is.

And so I think that's what makes it a system of hierarchy as well as if the people that we. Prioritize have power over us and the way that we engage in our relationships with other people.

[00:20:37] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:38] Juno: So, yeah. So like if a person who I'm very intimate with has the power to tell me, you can't be intimate with these other people, then I would consider that to be hierarchical.

[00:20:49] Nicole: Right?

[00:20:49] Juno: Uh, but me simply like deciding, oh, I wanna spend more time with this person because I really like them more than some of these other people. I don't think that's inherently hierarchical. However, I do think that it's important for people to try and, and analyze what hierarchies might be influencing

[00:21:08] Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:21:08] Juno: Their, their feelings that they like someone more like, is it desirability politics that's telling you, oh, I like this person more. I wanna spend time with them because they fit more of the standard beauty norms in our society. So yeah, there's lots of social hierarchies that underlie. Our preferences and priorities, and it's important to look at those.

[00:21:28] Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Going back to the beginning of our conversation, the unconscious, the amount of curiosity we should have around our desires. Right? Just a gentle, you know, reflection process, you know, uh, in terms of where those are located, how the systems are impacting us, and that continual deconstruction of the ways that we are fish in the water of these systems, right?

Mm-hmm. And so I appreciated the nuance of what you said around. Always prioritizing, right? I, I feel like there's a lot of fluidity in the prioritization of relationship anarchy, right? Where there might be different times and moments in which one person is prioritized over the other in terms of the finite resources of time and energy.

'cause obviously love is the abundant resource, but the finite resources of time and energy and Jessica Fern would say attachment, right? Mm-hmm. Those are things that are gonna ebb and flow, right? In terms of, uh, the ways that we can connect and prioritize those. So, so like seeing this deep continual embrace of change and fluidity is kind of how I I see that.

[00:22:36] Juno: Yeah. I, I agree with that, definitely. Yeah, because different people in our lives need to be prioritized in different contexts, and yeah, it's important not to just have this. This, uh, lens or this framing of relationships where it's like, well, no, this is the person I'm gonna prioritize all the time no matter what because they're my husband, or whatever.

Right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that would definitely be hierarchical.

[00:23:00] Nicole: Totally. Totally. And I had a hard time with that. I was gonna say at the beginning, I don't know, I'm still at the beginning. Let's be clear. I, I hope I die. Still being like I'm at the beginning folks. I dunno. Um, but one thing I definitely went through was like, okay, I'm a relationship anarchist.

This should all be equal, equal, equal, equal, equal, equal, equal. Like how do I make this all equal? And then just like really struggling with like, wow, I feel very drawn to this person. I wanna spend more time with this person. And I think the more obviously I thought about the equal Equal, I was like, wow, how many people do I even know the names of, let alone my, you know, broad community of people I see in the whole world.

Obviously it can't be equal. But for a long time I really thought my desires, which again, curiosity about where your times and energy is going. 'cause we're in a system. But I really like thought this desire, when I was feeling natural callings towards different ways of connecting. I wanted it to be so equal because I thought that that's what I'm supposed to do as a relationship.

Anarchist. Hmm.

[00:24:01] Juno: Yeah, I've heard that too in, in, uh, some discussion groups that I've hosted before on, on relationship anarchy where people are like, I trying to find a way to make all of my relationships equal. And I'm like, no, that's not the project. You're never gonna be able to do that, first of all, like Right, right.

And it's like, yeah. Fully enjoy all of the different ways that you relate to people and the different things that they bring to your life. Yeah. And just like, try to be aware of, of, and deconstruct some of the hierarchies without losing the enjoyment of that difference.

[00:24:34] Nicole: Totally. Totally. And that's making me think about the differences between equality of everyone equal and equity of like each to, you know, the own need.

Right. That's a huge piece to think about here, is that there's gonna be different equity needs. So it's not about the equality as much as it's about the equity of our different intersectional identities and how those might be at play here in this dynamic of building community.

[00:24:57] Juno: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:58] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:24:58] Juno: Mm-hmm. And that connects to what you said about commitment.

You mentioned commitment earlier.

[00:25:03] Nicole: Oh yeah. That's a big one.

[00:25:04] Juno: Yeah. I, I do notice that a lot of people who are just learning about relationship anarchy are really afraid that there's no commitment involved. Right. And I've just experienced the opposite. Like there's, there are so many, um, there are so many various kinds of commitments that I make with people in my life, like a commitment to care for each other,

[00:25:26] Nicole: right.

[00:25:27] Juno: That we discuss and, and negotiate at various times. And or like a, yeah, a commitment to, to process emotions with someone if they're having like a difficult time. Those are like, yeah. Those are things that are part of my relationships and mm-hmm. And I like that in relationship anarchy. I'm exploring what commitment can look like in friendships where there is no like romantic or sexual

[00:25:53] Nicole: right

[00:25:54] Juno: component.

'cause I think so often. Society we're taught, like, oh, those, those are the friendships. You don't, that you don't need to, you don't need to make commitments with those people. Yeah. And it's like, no, I, I do wanna make commitments like, like how do we wanna organize our lives to, to spend time together and to make sure that that happens and to care for one another.

So, yeah. Right.

[00:26:14] Nicole: I wanna show up as you raise the baby in the community. Yes. Like, yeah. Like, Hey, you wanna have kids? I don't, but I'll be there for you for that baby shower in all the years. Hell yeah. Maybe we all live in a three story building together. You know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of different ways that you can make those commitments.

And for me, I gotta watch my cat. She's gonna be next to this candle. Lord, she's burnt herself many a times. She doesn't, she'll just walk straight over and stand there and not even realize as the fire starts to sear her. Just, I love her. You love her. Um, yeah. So. For me, one of the hottest things I find, uh, 'cause I find commitment and stability and emotional availability, so attractive and hot across all of my friends.

And one of the things that I love is when I can look across from someone who can understand that change is inevitable. It's inevitable, we're gonna change. The human I am today is not gonna be the human I am when I edit this podcast, let alone like continual time onward from that. Right? And so to look at one another with this embrace of the inevitability of change and to say, Hey, I'm committed to you to navigate ways for us to find a relationship that feels pleasurable to the two of us.

Right? I don't know what that's gonna look like. I don't know where that's gonna lead us. I have no idea. But what I know is that I'm committed to you to going through that process together of being in relation and communicating about our needs and supporting one another in our freedom to explore pleasurable life together.

Oh, wow. You know, like, whoa, like yeah. Yes. Sign me up. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Mm, mm-hmm. I feel like that's in some ways all we can really promise to one another, you know? I agree. Yeah. Yeah. And so then moving on towards our next question, why do you practice relationship anarchy? Why is this important to you?

[00:28:15] Juno: I really feel like relationship anarchy is kind of almost like a natural progression of my feminism. Sure. Yes. Um, and just like with me being very socially justice minded for so much of my life for a very long time, I've held the belief that the personal is political. Yep. And yeah, and I've experienced that.

Like I've, over the years, I've taken a lot of time to look at the ways that systems of oppression are really big parts or have been really big parts of my intimate relationships. Yeah. Um, and yeah, and for a long time I was really focused on the gender aspect of that, and I still am, um, of the way that.

That my, that my relationships were routinely like heteronormative or I was in like a routinely kind of like submissive role as a woman, and like the man I was relating with was in like a more dominant role. There's the political aspect of that to analyze, and I think that looking at the conditioning that I've been going through since childhood, that's influenced me to, to feel like I'm naturally monogamous Yeah.

For so much of my life. Yeah. Yeah. Like that also like needs to be deconstructed and so it seems like, it seems like just like the next thing to do as, as part of feminism, as part of caring about oppression and liberation. So that is more of like a, like an intellectual, I'd say like, yeah. Aspect of why I do it.

I'd say like emotionally it's shown to be a way of life that meets my needs over and over again. Mm-hmm. Like mm-hmm. I don't think I've ever, in my life prior to becoming ra, uh, felt like my needs for connection and intimacy and really being vulnerable with people have been met before. Yeah. Or like my, my need for collective care that, that was not met.

And I really feel like it has been over, like the six or so years that I've been practicing ra mm-hmm. Um, as well as my need for, for there to be possibilities and like lots of, yeah. Lots of different ways that I can relate to people without needing to go to someone and like ask their permission and feel like they need to be Yeah.

Completely okay. With the way that I relate with people other than them.

[00:30:43] Nicole: Mm-hmm. Um,

[00:30:43] Juno: and kind of like some kind of exclusivity agreement.

[00:30:46] Nicole: Right.

[00:30:46] Juno: Um, I recognize I really need to feel, to feel like I can relate with people and let relationships unfold however they. They are going to in, in the moment.

[00:30:58] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:00] Juno: So RA definitely allows me to do that.

[00:31:02] Nicole: Yeah. The abundance of opportunity is there. Right. The unfolding. I love that. And I imagine that in the years that you've been practicing and you've probably found more and more people who are in similar resonance and harmony with this value system and relationship anarchy.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I feel like it's like a domino effect. You find one and then like that one has a community and then another community you're like, whoa. Ripples. I mean, maybe depending on, depending on the size of your location. Right. I live in Chicago, it's a, a big city space. You can start to find more and more, I guess in more rural areas it might be, it's, it's particularly more, uh, challenging Right.

To be able to find that. But what has that experience looked like for you in terms of building more and more connection?

[00:31:47] Juno: Yeah, so I, um, I live in metro Detroit area. Mm-hmm. So like in, in some, in a suburb of Detroit. Mm-hmm. Um, and so yeah, the community that I have built over the years has been, um, has been centered around that area and.

Yeah, I feel like when I first became RA in about, in like 2018, I started building community pretty quickly with people. And that's because there was already this sort of like small movement Yeah. Small RA movement, like gaining traction at the time through these like relationship anarchy discussion groups that were happening.

Um, and so I started attending those. Cool. And yeah, slowly met more and more people. I got invited at one point to co organize a, uh, relationship anarchy Unconference.

[00:32:39] Nicole: Mm.

[00:32:39] Juno: Yeah. That we did end up putting on in 2019. And that ran for a couple more years. So I became closer with the people practicing RA through that organizing experience.

[00:32:49] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:50] Juno: Yeah. And then from there, um, several of us slowly started building an intentional community. Beautiful. Um, that was, yeah. That included co-housing. One of my friends bought this really giant house, uh, in Detroit and several of us lived there. And we would organize a lot of events there focused on, on relationship anarchy or just like community building in general.

Um, and on, on a lot of intentional intimacy because we knew that. The default is to really only like generate intimacy with people who you are in, like romantic or sexual relationships with. So it was like a big project of ours to intentionally cultivate practices for generating intimacy and connection outside of that.

[00:33:36] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:36] Juno: Um, so a lot of like group communal Yeah. Intimacy practices, communication practices, conflict practices and that kind of thing.

[00:33:45] Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. So skill sharing, right? It sounds like a lot of different skill sharing and community building. And I think about the ways that we are social beings, right?

There's that saying that you're five closest friends are who you are. And I feel like the field of psychology would also double down on that of, you know, you are, your community, your relational network forms, your sense of self and how you see yourself. And so. I imagine as you connected more and more with those people, there was a lot of transformation in your own ability to practice relationship anarchy and to film even more secure in your values.

[00:34:22] Juno: 100%. Yeah. I would say like that was an, an experience like building that intentional community that gave me the strongest sense of belonging I've ever experienced in my life. Yeah. And also where I learned so much about myself and about how to practice my values, what my values even are. Right. Um, I learned more and more about politics through mm-hmm.

The, the people that were part of that. Yeah. There was so much skill sharing. I really see it as also. An experience that helped me recover from a lot of aspects of people pleasing. Um, yes. Yeah. Yes. Whoa. Yeah. Oh my God. Tell me more. I've got things to say there. Yeah, there was, and like still is such an emphasis on, um, on cultivating the ability to ask for what we want.

So like very direct communication to be able to create a sense of safety in other people to say no to us. So like being able to reject other people and also to like be rejected ourselves and not to hold other people responsible for how we feel in response to that rejection. Yeah. So like boundaries, self-advocacy.

Oh yeah. Wow. There was so much encouragement of that. Like, it was just such a central part of the way that we like communicated with each other. Yeah. And like. But yeah, our values, that was like huge. So,

[00:35:50] Nicole: yep, yep, yep. Yeah. Wow. When I think about the relationship escalator and the hierarchy of that form of relating, there are so many assumptions, so many things that are taken for granted out of, um, expectations of certain types of things at, at minimum, that like, Hey, I'm your most important person in the entire world, right?

Or at least if not that extreme, like one of the most significant people in your entire world, and most of your energy is gonna put right here, right here. And so when you start to deconstruct that to having more of this fluid model of multiple different types of relationships, you have to navigate multiple different types of desires.

Even just for co, like, let's throw an example out of how much time I spend with this person. Say that I wanna see this person once a week. They wanna see me every other day. You know, or vice versa. I wanna see them once a week and they wanna see me once every couple of months. Wow. What does it mean to navigate a deep, intimate, meaningful relationship when there's these mismatches around desire of how often we see each other?

Right? And so to go through that space of like, wow, hi, I really, really love you and this is how much time would feel good for me. Hi, I really, really love you. You're so important to me and I don't want to live with you. I want to live alone. I actually want to go to this party alone. I want to go play by myself.

There's so many different ways where when you have multiple relationships and this fluidity that like you're saying, you have to know what your desires are, be able to express them, be able to hear a no from the other person, and take that. As good. Mm-hmm. Good, good. Yes. Thank you for telling me. No. Right.

And then vice versa for yourself. Like, you can have multiple people. Can you come to this party? Oh, you got three different parties the same night. Wow. Okay. Navigating people pleasing. Right. There's just so many ways that when you get off the trajectory and these like, um, expectations, the guardrails of investment of your time and energy, that there's a lot you have to start navigating, like you're saying in terms of people pleasing and desires.

Whoa. Mm-hmm.

[00:38:02] Juno: Yeah. And like as part of the, the kind of like practice of challenging people pleasing, I think RA helped with that and the specific people that I was building community with, just by challenging each other to kind of see how far we can go with, um. With stepping outside of social norms, um, and, and engaging in kind of like little experiments.

Well, like, what if we did this? What if we didn't do this thing?

[00:38:27] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:27] Juno: And like recognizing that that being deviant in those ways would make people upset with us.

[00:38:33] Nicole: Mm.

[00:38:33] Juno: Would, yeah. Like people will disagree with us. People won't like what we're saying or what we're doing, and that there's a certain level of like, resilience that we have to build to being seen as like, honestly like bad people in lots of circumstances because it's so, yeah.

I'm seeing like it's so much of the norm for like, a lot of, whether it's just like monogamous people or just like people who are like living more traditional lifestyles to literally see non-monogamous people as like. These horrible people like that were doing these horrible things. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I've definitely, I've kind of had to recover from some aspects of people pleasing to continue to live this, this lifestyle.

[00:39:13] Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. Where do we get good representation of non monogamy as a blanket? Like where do we get good representation of that? Very rarely. Very rarely. Mm-hmm. Right. Let alone relationship anarchy. Right. So even rarer. And so, you know, I just remember earlier in my journey connecting with people who would say, I really like you.

I am attracted to you. I want to explore a romantic and sexual connection, however we define those words. 'cause I think it gets grayer and grayer and grayer. Mm-hmm. And I love the gray space. Mm-hmm. But at the, like, to use language to express something, um, a romantic and sexual connection. And I would like to see you every two weeks and I'm thinking.

What, every two weeks? I Jesus, what? Two weeks? I can't wait two weeks. Are you kidding me? Every two weeks. When is it ever gonna get closer? I want it closer. Right? And then the scary part of going through my clinical psychology training, and so there's so many therapists and where I was at at the time of like, you know what?

Juno, that person has an avoidant attachment style. Let me just tell them they have an avoid. They won't commit to more than every two weeks. There's something clinically wrong with that, right? So then now you can see how people in the field can start to weaponize that sort of, well, if you don't wanna see this person every day live with them, et cetera, et cetera.

You have an avoid an attachment style and that's what's really, you know, so you can, wow, you can feel how much, and I felt it going through the field of psychology. There are these expectations of like a very structured way of how to do life. And if you don't do life in this way, then there is some sort of clinical problem with you.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's a lot to do in the field. Yeah. Yeah. Long career ahead of me. Long career ahead of me. Yeah. Uh, the next question is, uh, how does relationship anarchy impact your practice of intimacy? We're already kind of hitting on a lot of this, but I'm curious what comes up for you when I bring up that question.

[00:41:19] Juno: So, for me, RA has. Opened up this possibility of having a lot of intimacy with people without there being this requirement to be sexually engaged with them.

[00:41:31] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:31] Juno: That's really huge for me. Yeah. I'm recognizing the way that compulsory sexuality, this idea that like, we all should want sex and like, want it a certain amount of time in our relationships and that that is the way to generate intimacy has impacted my, my experience of intimacy throughout my life and through ra I'm seeing like, oh, I can have experiences where I'm cuddling for someone with hours, even like naked cuddling.

I can have really deep, uh, emotional intimacy with people and there doesn't have to be this expectation that I will engage in a sexual relationship with 'em. Yeah. Huge. Or that it needs to like lead to any particular. Place other than us just being intimate with each other.

[00:42:19] Nicole: Right.

[00:42:20] Juno: And that feels really liberating for me.

[00:42:21] Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. This is definitely something I've talked about where we have the relationship escalator, but what about the intimacy escalator? I. Mm. Right? Mm-hmm. Just because we're snuggling naked, are we supposed to keep crawling up that to the, this peak point of what, what orgasm is? What we put it at, right?

Like, so I feel like in the same way that we have, like Amy Grand's the relationship escalator, I think we can also have an intimacy escalator, right? So like you're saying to decouple that and say that I can have these beautiful moments of intimacy and connection that feel close and don't have to go to this quote unquote, societally defined peak point or even.

When I think about relationship anarchy, of deconstructing power, uh, of deconstructing power systems, I think about what does it mean to see sex as way more expansive than penetration, right? Mm-hmm. I think that's a lot of the queer movement in gender in general, right? Like to see past sex as this active penis and vagina, right?

Like, and the heteronormative of that, right? To much more expansive ways of relating. And the more I see sex is more expansive and queerness and queerness and queerness, it's like, oh, where does sex begin and end? I don't even know these days in terms of like what play. And so I've, I find myself moving towards like erotic play.

Like I want to play erotically, right? Even like getting more expansive to what that concept can mean for us. And so like there's so many different ways that these power systems, again, are so deep in our language and our unconscious in the ways that we are exploring intimacy together.

[00:43:54] Juno: Yeah. I really, I really love what you were saying about sex becoming this more expansive category.

Yeah. Because I, I do think, yeah, there are so many ways of engaging with people that, that are erotic, that could be considered sex. Mm-hmm. That, yeah. That through like hetero, patriarchal culture Yeah. We're telling like, oh, that's not real sex, the real sex. Right. Yeah. It's like the penis and vagina. Right.

Um, which I don't even like really that much personally. Sure. Totally. And yeah, through like Ra, I've like really felt like I can Ken refuse to have intercourse. Mm-hmm. Um, and I previously didn't feel like that was a possibility. Yeah. Um, I definitely felt like, oh, like this is how you have sex. And like at the time I was primarily being sexual, like dating men

[00:44:47] Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:44:47] Juno: Um, with penises. Mm-hmm. And. Yeah, I've really felt like more liberated and confident that the people that I'm intimate with care about me enough and are interested in exploring a lot of different ways of having physical pleasure. That I don't need to like conform to this idea of like having penis in vagina sex.

Right. And like that it needs to be culminated with that person having an orgasm, which makes my interactions more consensual. Like, more like the consent I give is more meaningful. Yep. Yeah. I'm not feeling like systemically coerced to do all these things that I actually don't really, I. Enjoy.

[00:45:26] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. That is a liberatory journey. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. To be able to say, I, I remember one of my, uh, lovers, you know, we went through a more like traditional path in terms of immediately being sexually attracted to each other and connecting and going into partnership together, and then going through a phase where I was no longer sexually interested in exploring that connection.

And it was so much to unpack how I could say no to this person and say, I, I still find a romantic connection with you and I love you and I. Don't wanna have sex anymore. And to stay connected in that. Like, there was so much going through me. I can like, feel in my body thinking now of just like this societal conditioning, that if you love this person and you feel a romantic attraction again, what does that mean?

But you, you know, we're, we're here. Um, and so like I I, there was so much for me to, to deconstruct in terms of being able to say no. And then even there from that space, being able to be like, okay, like, yeah, I don't wanna explore quote unquote sex again, penetration, but you could give me a massage. You could actually massage me here, you could massage me here, but not there.

You could lick here, but not there. Right? Like the more spaces where like the more you deconstruct, the more your Yes. Is so strong because you know that you can fully say no and not just no to the act itself, but no to the, the structure, the expectations, the different ways of this quote unquote dance that you're supposed to do it.

And so the more that you find that ability to say no, then your yes is so, so loud and clear. And that is a journey that I'm still on. I don't think I'll ever end that journey, right? Again, it's systems. They're systems, they're here. And so I am still deconstructing these, um, senses of, uh, this is what it's supposed to look like, right?

Like, this is what it's good sex looks like this, you know, like, it's like deconstructing that every single day to get, uh, more and more play, right? And like, let's hope it's play. You know what I mean? And play doesn't have this. Structure, you know, it can hot kink, love it, structure, gimme a scene so hot. But to be able to like play more and not feel so rigidly locked into these scripts and these boxes is such a liberatory journey.

Mm-hmm.

[00:47:46] Juno: Yeah. I definitely feel that related to what you were saying about feeling like you can basically take, take sex off the table entirely in a relationship that was previously sexual, and that feels very, very empowering for me as well. Like I never would've entertained previously that I could Yeah.

Have this like long standing sexual relationship with someone, recognize that I'm, I'm no longer turned on by them. I'm not feeling erotic around them anymore, but I still love them. Yep. And I still want to spend a lot of time together and have intimacy. Yeah. But that I can communicate, I, yeah. That I would rather not engage in, in that aspect of our relationship anymore.

And it doesn't mean. That the relationship is not valuable.

[00:48:32] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:48:33] Juno: Um, yeah. So that's been amazing thing to learn that I can do. That we could do.

[00:48:38] Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's truly the liberation of our pleasure and also quite literally the liberation of our voice, right. To like voice that to mm-hmm.

Someone and to stay in relationship, like, oh wow. And I think about the ways that, you know, consent culture around, I don't wanna interact in this sort of intimacy way anymore. And also the ongoing consent culture of other parts of our relationship. I think this is something I'm living into of. Hey, you know, for the last couple of years we've been relating at this sort of frequency of seeing each other or this sort of orbit of seeing each other.

And I actually want to shift that and the complexities of when, you know, say I'm the person that wants to shift and my lover does not. So they are grieving when they hear that, 'cause they don't wanna shift, they wanna keep it the same. I want the space to change it. You know, like when we think about sex and if I were to come to someone and say, Hey, I don't wanna have sex anymore.

You know, we think about the ways that you should not be like, oh, but this is the blue balls conversation. Right? But I'm so turned on like. Like now I'm not gonna get off. Like the pressure that you can create for folks when you come in with that sort of, this is an expectation. I think there is a lot of different ways of relating of, Hey, we've been seeing each other once a week for two years.

You wanna take space, but wait, we've had this relationship, please don't do that. I want that. In the same way that we talk about how the blue ball situation is in highly inaccurate first, but also creating pressure inappropriately in that ethical situation. There are also other ways of relating that we kind of get used to and then therefore expect.

And the amount of, gosh, the amount of inner strength around people pleasing it takes again to sit with someone and be like, hi. I love you. I see that you're grieving about the fact that you don't, we're not gonna see each other as much, but God damnit, I love you. And also, please be careful with how much your grief is pouring into a sense of pressure.

Like again, so like, it's just these big conversations around consent that I think are mirrored out in different areas of our life. That consent is ongoing, it is ongoing. And so not just sexually, but all the aspects of our relationships, which I think then like how do you commit to longevity, right? But I think, I think that goes back to what we were saying about like, consent is ongoing.

So part of what we're consenting to is a deep embrace of change and communicating as we go through that, right?

[00:51:05] Juno: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And what, what you were saying reminds me of how important it is to, to a consent practice, to be able to, to understand our own emotions and to, um, I. To have tools and skills to help us regulate our own emotions so that we're not holding everybody else responsible for them and saying, no, you need to manage my emotions for me.

[00:51:28] Nicole: Right.

[00:51:29] Juno: So that I'm not sad. And we can care for each other and co-regulate, but we also need to be able to, to go and like regulate with someone different or just recognize like, my emotions are mine. And yeah. If I'm feeling angry or resentful about a change that you wanna make, that doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong.

[00:51:48] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:48] Juno: Yeah. It means I need to process my emotions in some way, so, right.

[00:51:52] Nicole: Yeah, exactly. And then the complexities of the more intertwined your network is. Who do I go to process this content with, right? Because wow, if I'm having this sort of, maybe I'm having a conflict with this person and they're interrelated in a complex web, and we share a lot of, who is the person that I pour that into for support, when you are reg regulating in community, wow.

I am, mm-hmm. Living into the complexities of that one every day as my web gets more and more intermingled, which is beautiful. And also the level of, again, emotional insight to think, wow, okay, yes, I need to do some self-regulating on my own, and also this conflict I'm having, I need to pour it out of the circle to someone who's not directly related because of the ways that that can complicate the dynamic further.

You know, like finding these resources that are outside of the circle that can support us in those moments.

[00:52:49] Juno: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:52:50] Nicole: Complex. Yeah. Def. Yep.

[00:52:53] Juno: Navigating community. It's, it's wonderful and so complicated and I am, yeah. I would say what you were saying earlier about being a beginner, I feel like I'm perpetually a beginner at that.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. A life lifelong learn.

[00:53:07] Nicole: I just wake up and I learn again. You know what I mean? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Which is the next question. What are some of the difficulties that you've experienced in relationship anarchy?

[00:53:18] Juno: Yes. Okay. So I will say, yeah, A major difficulty that I have experienced is actually some of the conflicts that came up in my intentional community that, that I was part of, and that like, I no longer consider myself part of that intentional community anymore.

I don't even think it would be considered to like, exist as an intentional community, even though I still have this like, big network of people that I'm part of.

[00:53:43] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:43] Juno: But, um, in our, in our efforts to. To be not hierarchical and to analyze a lot of the, the ways that we would typically see hierarchy show up in community, like, um, like through maybe like more formal roles or people not having like obvious autonomy.

Those were the things that we really tended to focus on.

[00:54:08] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:08] Juno: There were a lot of like implicit power dynamics Sure. In our community that ended up going just like un unaddressed. And I think that, yeah, something, something that I've learned and that I still struggle with from that experience is like how to mitigate that, how to, how to prevent that from happening.

Particularly when it comes to like social dominance and like some personalities just tending to like, yeah. Tending to command a social space over time and, um. Yeah. Navigating that was, was very difficult. And, and part of that was kind of like the disillusion of this project that we had been, been working on.

And I still experience a lot of grief from losing that, that version of community at least. Um, because while it did, like, it provided so much belonging, but also like, because of some of the, the social norms that we created within that intentional community, there were many times when people felt afraid to dissent from the social norms that we had created, like these countercultural norms.

[00:55:21] Nicole: Sure.

[00:55:22] Juno: Um, yeah. And so I think like a difficulty in like creating community can be like the creation of, of new norms that people feel afraid to dissent from and people feeling like, oh, well this mean I'm not part of the community. I won't be part of it anymore. Yeah. And how to navigate that.

[00:55:40] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Our humanness.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious, you know, there are lots of different examples of what I'm thinking about that when you say that. Mm-hmm. I'm curious if you could paint a picture for the listener of what that could look like.

[00:55:59] Juno: Yeah. Um, so in, yeah. In this intentional community, we became like very, um, very anti monogamous.

And I still actually would consider myself anti monogamous in many ways. But the way that we were like talking about it and practicing it was very, um, very like much kind of like targeting monogamous people as, as kind of like individually responsible for. For upholding these systems of oppression with their personal behavior and really wanting to challenge ourselves.

And anyone we came into contact with to, to divest from like any form of like monogamy or mono normativity or else we would kind of like not wanna socialize with them. Mm-hmm. Um, and so in that way, I think that there was something about our, our approach, our tactics that were maybe like too, I don't know, too aggressive or maybe like too Yeah.

Um, yeah. Um, yeah, just not, yeah. Like not meeting people where they're at, which is what I really value now. Sure, sure, sure. Um, and yeah, and there were like many times when people felt excluded and like were excluded from social events or just from like, being around us and like didn't get their needs for connection met because of that.

[00:57:24] Nicole: Mm.

[00:57:26] Juno: And. Just in general, like in our community, we would challenge each other to become kind of like what we would call like more and more radical. Sure. Um, and if you weren't like on board with that, like with like kind of like more and more intense kind of like social experiments that we wanted to engage in, like maybe at an event having like a, an intention of there being like no dyadic relating at all.

Right. Like, no. Like having like your support person there to be like, yeah. You're, yeah. Like you're to co-regulate with Yeah. I think that that like, that scared some people away and just like Yeah. Made, made people feel like, like, it's too hard to be part of this community.

[00:58:06] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:07] Juno: So that was definitely a struggle.

[00:58:09] Nicole: Sure. Absolutely. I don't know,

[00:58:10] Juno: I hope that painted like maybe a little clear. It did. It did. Absolutely. Picture,

[00:58:14] Nicole: yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so like, yeah, I'm hearing. Meeting people where they're at, understanding the prevalence of the systems, and so what does it mean to meet people where they're at with compassion, kindness, and the autonomy that they have to live under that, right?

Mm-hmm. I think that's important and I think about the ways that. When we've been hurt by the systems, which we all have, but when we've been hurt by the systems, we get very vitriolic about like, you gotta get out too. You, you, you have to get out. And it's like, oh, okay. Whoa. You know, like, whoa, whoa. Maybe diversity is a good thing.

Maybe there's lots of different ways to live under this system. Right? And when I think about the concepts of anarchy, I think about this deep commitment to community as well as the deep commitment to the freedom to create the life that you wanna create in that commitment to community, right? And so, like mm-hmm.

This, this juxtaposition in the ways that some of us anarchists can be like, this is the way to do it and you have to do this. It's gotta look like that. And it's like, isn't that almost antithetical to the whole process in and of itself, of like, Hey, everyone's on their own. Damn. Journey and everyone is gonna find pleasure in all these different spaces.

And so what does it mean to be, uh, enforcing a commitment to community? I think that commitment to community is understanding, like you're saying, meeting people where they're at, and not even just meeting them, but understanding that people are gonna write their own damn narratives and what's gonna be meaningful to them.

Right. And so, like, what does it mean to hold space for that rather than trying to force someone, which feels, in my sense, like deeply antithetical to anarchy. And so I think when I think about this conversation of monogamy, I think about the nuance between being anti monogamy and antimon, like mono normativity.

Mm-hmm. Like I can be very antimon normativity the sense that this is the way, the only way, the best way and the most, you know, psychology approved way, you know what I mean? Versus Wow. Like if you are having sex with one person. And you're practicing sexual fidelity, like more power to you. Do you understand that all of your relationships are meaningful?

Are you reflecting on how these systems are impacting you and creating these scripts and these narratives? If you're reflecting on that and actively choosing to share your body with one person sexually. Like who am I to tell you that you are or aren't a relationship anarchist, right? Like that feels antithetical.

Hmm.

[01:00:46] Juno: Yeah. I would say that for me, so like I differentiate between what I would call like mono amery or mono being like monosexual.

[01:00:57] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:57] Juno: Uh, which I think can also be called like a version of monogamy where like you're, you personally for your own body are saying like, I would like to only have sex with one person, or only be like romantically involved with one person.

And I don't think that's like antithetical to relationship anarchy at all. I think where like my. Yeah. My, um, my stance of, of maybe like sometimes calling myself anti monogamous is specifically related to relationship agreements that have rules embedded in them. That people cannot be sexually intimate or like romantically intimate with anyone else.

Like if I have an expectation that you are only going to be monogamous with me. Yeah. Um, that's where I, yeah, that's where I kind of think like, well, I don't know if that Yeah. Like expectation. Sure. Um, and having these like rules for other people, especially if they're going to be like punished if they break the rule or break the agreement.

Right. That does seem kind of antithetical to, to ra for me.

[01:02:02] Nicole: What if they consciously decide it together?

[01:02:06] Juno: So you mean if like two people consciously decide to Yeah. Only have sex with each other.

[01:02:13] Nicole: Yeah.

[01:02:14] Juno: So I think that makes perfect sense. I don't think that's typically how monogamy Yes. Ends up happening.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Totally. Yeah. I hear you. For the heck, I think.

[01:02:23] Nicole: Yeah.

[01:02:23] Juno: Yeah. Like, I think that's, yeah. That makes perfect. That's fine. Totally. Yeah. That's, I think that aligns with our, yeah. Yeah. I think it's like, it's the issue with Okay. What it is, is I think the punitive nature that can, that, or like the way that people can punish each other if they end up, um, not, uh, not meeting that agreement at some point.

Mm-hmm. Or saying like, you know what, I actually don't want to only have sex with you. I wanna have sex with multiple people. Yeah. And the way that our, yeah. That like in our relationships or in society, people often view that person as doing something wrong. Right. And that is what I'd like to challenge.

It's like Right, right. You can make an agreement that you only wanna have sex with each other, but it should be okay for you to just decide. I. I wanna have sex with more people now, you know? Totally.

[01:03:07] Nicole: So, totally, totally, totally. Absolutely. Yeah. Most people are not, and, and again, like let's be like, what does it mean to say conscious versus unconscious?

Mm-hmm. Like that's a one I'll sit with about free will and stuff for like hours. I could sit on that. Um, right. Whew. Wow. 'cause when I look back on my past conservative Christian self who was doing lots of very heteronormative, conservative things, I don't conscious. Woo. Um, but Right. That being said, most people aren't consciously, whatever word that means, um, thinking about deconstructing the relationship escalator and all of that.

So Absolutely. And I think that's where maybe like that frame of being like anti-man normative, which is this. This is the way, unconsciously, this is what you do. And so if you want anything else, that's gross, that's bad. That's that. So like I feel like that's somehow, like for me, the nuance of that where it's like, dude, like construct monogamy.

That's what you want. Like cool hot, great sacred, divine, cool. But it, right? Like did you freely, and this again free will. Mm-hmm. What a hot topic did you freely choose that? And then again, where do we even decide what is free will when we live in a society that is so a fishbowl of mono normativity? Can any of us freely decide to be monogamous or out?

I mean, I'm, I could spend hours of what it means to be free will in relation, but. Ah. Mm-hmm. It's, it's, it's like, it's like when we, it's like the nuance of what we are saying about, uh, hierarchy, right? This, it's not just like that. No one else is, um, prioritized. These are more nuanced ways to describe these things.

We absolutely need to be super critical about the internalization and the assumption that anything else is wrong, right? And then within that, when you freely create it beautiful, have all the freedom, the abundance to do with your own narrative, what feels good to you. Mm-hmm.

[01:05:00] Juno: Yeah. I love what you're describing in terms of like conscious, conscious monogamy, and I would love, yeah.

For that to be the way that Totally, that most people practice monogamy.

[01:05:10] Nicole: Yeah.

[01:05:11] Juno: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:12] Nicole: I have one of my close friends who's like practiced like polyamory for I feel like, like 10 years and then is now currently in a monogamous dynamic. And so it was like a lot for me to watch of like, what, what are you doing?

Wow. You know, like, whoa. You know? And so I think it was a lot for me to deconstruct of like, wow, this person is choosing this in a very different way because they have rode so much of polyamory and not just a serving of polyamory, I would say like a life, a life of polyamory at a decade, right? And so like, just the ways that people can ebb and flow through different periods of time of what feels important and meaningful and on all of that.

Um, and again, I, I am absolutely. Curious because I feel like part of the role of anarchist is to see a vision of what is possible, right? Another world is possible, and in a completely different container where the majority of people are practicing polyamory in an expansive, relating, what would the rates of monogamy look like?

I'm fucking right. This, I'm fucking curious. You know what I mean? Until we get there, it's like meeting people where they're at and respecting the autonomy of each person while also being deeply critical about the system. So I think we're getting into some of the nuance of that complexity here.

[01:06:24] Juno: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think it, it's really hard to, to know with so many of our decisions, what is truly free or not. Yeah. And I could think and talk about that for hours as well. Um, and, and I have totally, yeah. Like we're so systemically coerced Yes. Into so many things that we don't truly want or that we're, yeah.

Even our desires, like we were talking about earlier, are our desires. So many of them are conditioned, so it's like. What's going on? What do I really want? I, and yeah. And we can't really know all the time. Like I think we're all trying to navigate as best we can, these systems of oppression. Yeah. So that's difficult on both beginners,

[01:07:06] Nicole: two beginners here.

We can, you know. Yeah. Just, just figuring it out each day. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And so then to balance, right, we are now gonna explore the next question, which is what are some of the joys of relationship anarchy?

[01:07:20] Juno: Okay. I'm actually wondering, yes. Could I go back and add a little bit more to the difficulties?

[01:07:24] Nicole: Totally. I'll just leave the question like this, like the recording, like this, if that's okay. Or, or I can cut it more.

[01:07:30] Juno: Okay. Okay. Yeah. Um, because I also notice that a difficulty that I have, which honestly I feel sometimes ashamed of, and I'm sure like many people navigating RA maybe feel ashamed sometimes.

Sure. But we don't need to feel ashamed 'cause there's nothing, yeah. There's nothing actually bad about it, but. I noticed that I really struggle still with the idea that being at the top of a romantic and sexual hierarchy is what gives me worth and value in the world. And that since I'm not, sometimes I definitely feel like, um, I feel like I have low worth sometimes, and I struggle with that.

And I have to remind myself that just because I'm not like being prioritized by someone particularly sexually, that that doesn't mean that I am of low worth or value. Yeah. Um, so that's definitely like still a difficulty that I experience, and I don't know if that will ever go away completely, just because it's been so ingrained in my mind since childhood.

Right. Honestly.

[01:08:33] Nicole: Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. There's this part of me that wants to say it, it will, the optimist. Like Yeah. Like you're gonna keep sitting on it and feeling it and growing and growing that relationship to yourself. That it will feel more and more secure. And that, I, I wanna say that, and I also am recognizing how deep that is, that narrative of worth is so reinforced in our society.

Mm-hmm. Like school reinforced. Mm-hmm. So just, I wanna honor the grief of that journey of, of the radical nature of the new narrative that you were writing for yourself in that as you're navigating this. Mm-hmm.

[01:09:12] Juno: Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I struggle with jealousy just as much as the next person. I think probably hell yeah.

Um, and I still like would not trade this. This lifestyle for, for monogamy. Again,

[01:09:25] Nicole: I know personally, so I couldn't even possibly consciously at this point, like, you know, you couldn't, you get so far down the rabbit hole, you're like, I, there is no going back at this point. I am in the rabbit hole and staying in the rabbit hole like, we're here now.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[01:09:42] Juno: Yeah. I just really wanted to voice that.

[01:09:44] Nicole: Yeah. Well, thank you for doing that. And yeah. So now transitioning a little bit to the joys were some of the joys that come to mind.

[01:09:52] Juno: Yeah. Hmm. Okay. The joys, I feel like, yeah, I have like touched upon some of those and yeah, I would like to expand.

I mean, honestly, like, again, having community is like the biggest joy I, yeah. That I, that I've experienced, I've met and I. Retained connections with some of the most, like creative visionary. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. Uh, challenging. Yeah. Like committed, caring people that I've ever met in my life and I've been changed by them.

I've been transformed by them in ways that are so, so valuable to me. Like I've grown as a person because of these relationships. Um, yeah. I've learned, okay. I've learned way more about myself. I think that's one of the big joys. Yes. Too. And I'm reminded of, I you Yeah. Of a podcast interview that you did with, I think it was a dominatrix.

I know you've, you've interviewed several different

[01:10:52] Nicole: Yeah. Hell yeah.

[01:10:54] Juno: But yeah, there was one where you both were talking about the way that having, having an erotic container with someone else. Uh, it gives you access to parts of yourself that you never would've had access to before.

[01:11:07] Nicole: Yeah.

[01:11:07] Juno: Um, and I've definitely experienced that.

Mm-hmm. Um, where I'm just like, oh, that's, that's part of who I am. Right. Like, this is something I want, like, I didn't know. Yeah. And that is so it's, it can be challenging. It's like scary. Mm-hmm. But it's like, it's so fun and like amazing at the same time.

[01:11:26] Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. I think this goes into my study of relational cultural theory as a therapist, right.

They would talk about how the self is in relation. Mm-hmm. Okay. And so I, I, what does that mean? Right? I, I, I think of the self as this, this, the, yeah. This being that is moving through temporal time and space and creating a narrative of who you are, right? You are the only person that has lived in your body and walked the universe in your time and space.

And as you're walking through that, you are surrounded by multiple relationships that all mirror different parts of you, right? Mm-hmm. Some of those relationships are fun, house mirrors. Maybe they have some trauma, maybe they're really projecting a lot at you. And you look into that mirror, you go, whoa, whoa, okay.

This is complex. Um, and so I think about the different ways that when you're with different people, they're mirror different aspects of yourself. Or maybe if we come even into a, um, example of chemistry, right? You can have a, a molecule and then when you throw in another, it's gonna react maybe in a big way, maybe in a small way.

But it's definitely not the same thing that it once was just sitting by itself. And so as social beings, right? You might think this is, this is who I am, erotically, this is what I do, this is how I show up. And then you have someone else and they absolutely bring out different parts of yourself. And I think something that I'm trying to do is, as I am exploring eroticism with multiple different people, all of my friends, my lovers, hi, my circle of folks that I love dearly, they bring out different parts of myself.

And then how can I not. Categorize one is the most important, right? Mm-hmm. Maybe the one that fells into the heteronormative scripts, the one that maybe my mom and dad could look at and be like, oh, that makes sense that she has a romantic relationship with this person. Right? 'cause that's deep in my society, like internalization of acceptance.

'cause I'm a human being that wants to be accepted. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Um, how can I recognize the different ways that my erotic self, I just feel like I, I'm trying to put a hierarchy of like, this is the most erotic part of me, and this is like a, a play part of me that I kind of do. And it's giggly, right?

Like, mm-hmm. I, I just find myself working through that currently of like, WW Why is the, the, like, sensual, erotic, orgasmic, um, sex somehow more meaningful than the giggly, playful scene sex. Like, why, why am I valuing those in different ways? And how, what does it mean to see each one? Just like each person?

As meaningful, can I see each type of part of myself coming out as meaningful? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:14:10] Juno: Yeah. I, I relate to what you're saying about like this idea of there being a more erotic Yeah. Part of yourself that is like the orgasmic Yeah. Part versus like this playful, giggly, right. Yeah. Part, and I'm relating to it in terms of like coming to terms in, in one erotic container that I have with a person, uh, coming to terms with my own, um, my own desire to take on a dominant role.

Cool. And my own sadism. Yeah. And how joyful it's been to, to be able to explore that with someone, uh, who I trust and feel safe with. Mm-hmm. Um, and who like, for whatever reason it is about them. Yeah. They made me discover this about myself. Totally. Like they led me to that. Totally. Yeah. This like surprising conclusion.

Yeah. Where I'm just like, wow, I want these things and I can do them. And yeah. It's, that's been like really fun.

[01:15:08] Nicole: Yes.

[01:15:08] Juno: To explore.

[01:15:09] Nicole: Hell yeah. You meet a pain slut and they're like, bite me. And you're like, oh, Anna, I, they're like, yes, please bite me, please. And you're like, wow, okay. This is a new part of myself.

I've never done this before. Right. And so I find this to be. Relationship anarchy, right? Like, here's my relationship to self, a relationship to another. Here are the ways that society has told me how to be intimate with this person. Particularly for me as someone who socialized as a woman, I'm supposed to be soft and nice and gentle, and la la la the Madonna and the horror complex, right?

You're either one or the other. Mm-hmm. And so when I'm in my Madonna, I'm soft and gentle erotically, right? And so to unlock the dominant parts of myself, the sadistic parts of myself, because this pain slut is asking for it. Oh my God. That is a lot of internal navigation. This is why I love doing kink coaching because there's so much psychologically to go through of like, they're asking for this and I'm scared.

What is that? Like? They're actually asking me, dare I say, begging me to bite them. What is it in my own fucking psyche? 'cause they're giving me full consent that is blocking that from me. And where does that come from? Ugh. Hours of processing there, like hours of processing. That's one of my favorite things to do with clients is to help like, expand these parts of ourselves, the capacities.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[01:16:28] Juno: Yeah. I've definitely been processing that a lot with, with my therapist. Yeah, totally. And, and with the person I'm engaging in this with be with like, we do a lot of, of processing about our emotions and what's coming up for us and like past trauma.

[01:16:42] Nicole: Yeah. Um,

[01:16:43] Juno: yeah. And it's all really, really great.

[01:16:45] Nicole: Um, yeah. So, yeah,

[01:16:47] Juno: I feel like a little, yeah, a little weird saying like, it's been so joyful too. To get to like inflict pain Yes. On someone who wants it, but it, it has been very much so. Absolutely.

[01:16:58] Nicole: Absolutely. I hope you can listen to my episode with BCT who is, um, yeah. Uh, it's back in the catalog, but like a really, like identified as like a, a leather dyke, very into brutal, um, sadistic pain and like, I hope that that conversation could create even some more space to like liberate any sort of feelings around that because Yeah, it's a whole thing to unpack as well, um, in terms of what it means to enjoy something like that under, under our system.

So, yeah. Yeah. For sure.

[01:17:31] Juno: Yeah, I'll definitely go. Yeah, look for that episode for sure. It's lot.

[01:17:33] Nicole: They also have a great, uh, resource in that 'cause they're, um, a great dom in that they have this Excel sheet that's linked in the show notes of just like hundreds of different options of how to play and like to go through your sub width of like this, this, this, this, this.

Where is this that for you? How does this feel? What like, just so much to process. So like that resource, I was always so grateful for them when they gave me that. I was like, wow, like there's so much more I need talking, I need to be doing as a dom. Right? So like, wow. Um, yeah. And so the last question is, what do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy?

[01:18:10] Juno: I, yeah. I wish other people knew that relationship anarchy is not, not just doing whatever you want, regardless of how any, how anyone else feels about it and not caring about how they feel about it. That it's not, you know, it's not hyper individualism, um, that there's. Such a strong, um, ethic of care involved and, and making, like I said, like commitments of care to people in your life, to many, multiple people in different ways.

And that, that those commitments lead to like deeper and deeper intimacy, at least in like many of the relationships. Mm-hmm. Um, 'cause I think that at least, like I had this misconception going into it, and I hear this from many people, that you're kind of gonna, that if you become ra, that you're not gonna have like really deep, I guess, like I'm putting in quotes, like serious relationships.

Yeah. That it's kind of this practice of just like casual, this casual relationship form. And I don't even like that, that like binary of serious versus casual, right. Um, yeah. Yep, yep. But yeah, like these relationships that I have are, yeah, like I've said, like the deepest. Care, most caring, most vulnerable, intimate, committed that I've ever had in my life.

Um mm-hmm. And yeah, I think that that's something anyone can access through their RA community.

[01:19:38] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:19:39] Juno: Um, yeah. Trying to think if there's anything else that I wish people, I mean, I guess there's so much, um, right, yeah. Right. This whole time we've been talking, all of this downloaded you guys please. Yeah.

I think also, so, yeah, I wish more people knew that RA is not only about deconstructing heteronormativity, right. And like. Romance and like compulsory sexuality and like those hierarchies that like RA is also the practice of like deconstructing our own like white supremacy and like racism. That all of the systems of oppression are things that we need to deconstruct as part of ra 'cause they impact the way we relate to each other.

[01:20:21] Nicole: Absolutely.

[01:20:21] Juno: Um, yeah. And so like colonialism, like Right. Deconstructing colonial colonialism, the way it shows up in our relationships mm-hmm. As part of relationship anarchy. So we always need to be working on those things within ourselves.

[01:20:34] Nicole: Right? Absolutely. Yeah. Like the kink power dynamics we just talked about.

Right. Gender. Right. I had one conversation about drug use. Um. Mm. Because as a psychotherapist I think about drug use as a relationship. You have a relationship to the drug, and that relationship to the drug is impacted by your relational system. The, the research on Rat Park and the cage that we live in.

Um mm-hmm. So I think that you can apply the concepts of relationship anarchy directly to Yeah. All these different systems of oppression because we're relational beings. And so this is a part of what it means to unpack relationship anarchy, is to see the different ways that power structures are present in so many different areas of our life.

Even family dynamics, right? That's another one too. What does it mean to deconstruct the expectations around family or even the relationship to self, right? There's so much here. And so I really appreciate you expanding the lens far out to the capacities for relationship anarchy in terms of, uh, it's reminding me of what you said about, um, the connection to feminism, right?

The personal is the political. Mm-hmm. So when you know the personal is the political then. It's everywhere at that point, right?

[01:21:45] Juno: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. I'm thinking also about what I was saying earlier about the punitive nature that can be like the punitive nature of a lot of agreements that people make. Mm-hmm.

And I think that a big, yeah, a big part of RA for me is rejecting, um, what I would call like social incarceration or cancel culture. Yeah. Like, like the, yeah. The drive to like punish each other. Yep. If we do anything that goes against each other's values, if we have like a disagreement, if we've, if we've heard each other, there's often this impulse to, to label someone else as like a bad person.

Mm-hmm. It's a moral hierarchy. Mm-hmm. Um, of like good and bad people. And I think that those things I. Are, are like core parts of RA for me as well. Like challenging punishment culture. Yeah. And like car. Car. I cannot say that word. Carceral culture.

[01:22:43] Nicole: Yes, absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Restorative justice. What does it mean to mm-hmm.

Heal in community. Right. I think this is definitely a big conversation about what it means in the ways that our society outsources healing to therapy. Ooh. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, ooh. Interesting. Um, when someone's wrong, they go to the hospital and then they get dealt with by, you know, police. Right. The whole thing.

Therapist structures, power systems. I'm gonna diagnose you, I'm gonna diagnose you, right. I'm gonna medicate you. Actually, potentially, and, sorry, not potentially, but oftentimes against your will. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Using that in different emergency room settings and other sorts of stuff like that. Right.

So, yeah. Yeah. It's endless. Yeah.

[01:23:28] Juno: That's something I. Something I really care about.

[01:23:31] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. As part of ra, hell yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And so showing up in our communities, the people doing that love, and like trusting the ripples of the work that we're doing through these conversations and the activism and the ways that we're showing up to love one another as we change these systems together.

[01:23:52] Juno: Yeah. And the ways that we're showing up to, to engage in conflict Yep. With each other. Like how do we navigate conflict in Yeah. In more like honest and uh, empowering and generative ways Yeah. Rather than like perpetuating harm and like Yeah. Trying to hurt each other because we've been hurt.

[01:24:10] Nicole: Right.

[01:24:10] Juno: Um, and I think that takes like a lot of trauma, uh, addressing trauma.

[01:24:15] Nicole: Yep.

[01:24:15] Juno: Yeah. Addressing systems of oppression, figuring out new ways to communicate.

[01:24:19] Nicole: Yep. Um, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Well, it's been such a joy to have you on the podcast today. I truly, uh, find such resonance when I get to have these relationship anarchy conversations and I am expanded each time I have one of these conversations to sit with a fellow relationship anarchist, a fellow beginner in the journey, right.

And to sit and think. And so I'm just so deeply grateful that you were trusting of me to come onto this space and to share your thoughts with me and all of the listeners.

[01:24:52] Juno: Thank you so much. Yeah. I've really enjoyed this conversation and getting to talk about all the different ways Yeah. That I practice ra and hearing like your own thoughts about it mm-hmm.

And practices that you engage in. Yeah.

[01:25:04] Nicole: So, yeah, thank you for sharing as well coming together. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. So as we come towards the end of our time, I'm gonna take a deep breath with you again. Ugh. And then I'm gonna check in and see if there's anything else that you wanna share with the listeners.

Otherwise I have a closing question that I can guide us towards.

[01:25:28] Juno: Yeah, I can, I can't think of anything myself right now. Great. Yeah.

[01:25:31] Nicole: Okay. So then the closing question that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal? Ooh,

[01:25:43] Juno: I, yeah. That I wish other people knew was more normal.

Mm-hmm. I think, yeah, I think I'm struggling with that question because normal is an interesting term, isn't it? Like, um, yeah. 'cause normal can mean like, oh, it's like common. Like we all, like most of us are doing this and we're just not talking about it. But it can also be like, this is a norm and something we should do.

So I'm trying to think of it and then we're like, this is common and we do it. We should be able to talk about it kind of way.

[01:26:12] Nicole: Hell yeah. I'll let you in on a secret here when it's, uh, the amount of times that I've had different anarchist answer that to this question. 'cause I ask it every single episode, right.

Hundreds of episodes at this point. So whenever someone deconstructs the question, I'm like, anarchist check if there was a secret test you've passed. And it is to say, Hmm, maybe this question's also not good because I Yeah, exactly. So congratulations on the secret test if there's a test.

[01:26:42] Juno: Thank you. Yeah, totally.

Um, yeah. Okay. I think something, yeah. That I wanna say is, um, I think it is more normal than people think, maybe to have a lot of anxieties and discomfort and a need to like process, um, sexual experience, um, and like during the experience.

[01:27:06] Nicole: Sure.

[01:27:07] Juno: And. I think that that need is very normal, like very common for things to come up for people while some sort of like erotic or sexual experience is happening.

And I think the, the social norm unfortunately is to like repress that and ignore it and like not talk about it because it's considered like, well then you're interrupting the sex and Yeah. Kind of like ruining the, the mood or whatever. But I think that, yeah, there are so many things that like, that come up that we need to process during sex that I think would be wonderful if people did.

And I've experienced that where I've been with people who really make me feel comfortable to say, you know what? I actually need to talk about something that's happening right now and like my feelings about it, and just like, stop what we're doing. Yep. And that's like, made the sex so much better.

Absolutely. Yeah. To be able to have those conversations or to like, like you're saying, like be giggly. Yeah. Just like experience all of like the awkwardness and strangeness that is sex and sexuality.

[01:28:10] Nicole: Mm. Yeah. The liberation of our voice. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Quite literally to talk, right. To talk about it. And to not have to be hush, hush, hush, hush, hush.

That's a, that's a bad topic. Don't talk about it. Right. Shh. Right. Bad, bad. Right. And so to actually like mm-hmm. Liberate our voice to liberate the expectations. Right. Play. We're playing. We're playing. Oh, can we talk about like Yeah, of course. Right. To create that space rather than the script of what it's supposed to look like.

And again, the ways that then that liberates your breath, your voice, and dare I say, liberates even more pleasure, which is exactly what you're speaking to, right? The joy of sex when you can absolutely take the pause, the break or the stop, whatever we wanna name it as to talk about it and to process. And then pick it back up.

Or not pick it back up, right? And that ease, when you know that you can do that at any moment, oh my God, I'm like moving my body as the listeners can't see me, but you can. 'cause then I'm like, yes. Like I just remember so many. I mean, and again, trauma thrives in silence. Abuse thrives in silence, right? And so, so much of our sexuality.

Is repressed and there's a lot of trauma and there's a lot that needs to be talked about. Right. And so when I think back to my past experiences in sex, I would struggle to even, like what's coming to mind for me now is like if I was in pain, I would struggle to ask to stop. If I needed to pee, I would struggle to ask to stop.

Right? And so like, gosh, just to liberate my voice there, to get to a space where I could say, Hey, oh gosh, this, this hurts. I need you to stop. Right? This, I need to pee. I need fucking louv right now. Okay. Let alone to get to the other space of like, oh my God, this is so beautiful right now that I think I need to cry with how beautiful this connection is with you right now.

Can we just for a moment, like, let me cry with how beautiful the sex is. Mm-hmm. Oh, there's so much voice liberation there, and orgasmic liberation for our collective that I'm so, so passionate about. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Ah. Well, it's been such a joy to have you on the podcast again, really, thank you for trusting me, and thank you for trusting all the listeners to share this conversation with all of us.

So thank you.

[01:30:32] Juno: You're welcome. Thank you again. Yeah, I'd loved this conversation.

[01:30:37] Nicole: Wild, wild. If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modernanarchypodcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode.

I wanna thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.