207. The Sexual Wisdom and Liberation of All Bodies with Emily Royce

[00:00:00] Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole.

On today's episode, we have Emily join us for a conversation all about how all bodies are able to access ecstasy. Together we talk about embracing the big feels. The discomfort of growth and the amazing gift that is Curious lovers. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.

My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of the Pleasure Practice supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear listener. As a pleasure activist. I'm sure you already know this, you feel all of it.

This is something that I have talked to you again and again about on the podcast, right? When we wanna feel pleasure, that also means that we're gonna feel the pain. Unfortunately, you cannot pick and choose which emotions and experiences you feel, and so when you open yourself up to really feeling pleasure, you're going to feel the pain.

Right? In last week's year four reflection episode I had mentioned, uh, yeah, if you wanna come hard, you gotta be able to cry hard, right? This is something that I've talked about again and again on the podcast because it's all connected to how free you feel to be in your body, to release in your body, and to allow yourself to.

Really feel. And so today's episode, we are getting all into the liberation of our pleasure and the wisdom of our bodies that is already so deep and innate within all of you. And I really hope that you can take that slow, deep breath

and feel all the pleasure that is possible in your body. It really takes that moment of slowing down. And I know, dear listener, if you're like me, we are constantly running from one thing to the next, right? And sometimes we gotta have that moment to really slow down, to enjoy that bite of food that is in your mouth, to really feel that touch that is on your skin, and to really take that deep exhale.

All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources@modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all my Patreon supporters, you are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible for all people.

So thank you. If you wanna join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, then you can head on over to patreon.com/modern Anarchy podcast, also linked in the show notes below. And with that dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.

Okay. So then the first question that I ask each guest is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:04:06] Emily: I am a queer, disabled sex witch with Wicked Boundaries. I, uh, cure deeply. Um, I'm, I'm, I'm cis white woman. Um, I care to a great extent, so I'm like this old school, I'll lay my body on the line for like people I deeply care about, and that includes a fairly wide network and I'm just learning how to live for people.

Mm-hmm. Not just I will die, but how to be so devoted to my own self-care and my own, like what do I need to really fully show up for the people who are. Even emotionally depending on me to do my work. Um, I take that very seriously. Mm-hmm. So I am a, um, I'm quick to joy. I'm quick to cry, I'm quick to anger.

Uh, I am a big feeler, um, who decided to be in the profession I'm in because it's well suited, uh, to, to all of those things. So I just let that fuel me. Um, great. In life. Yeah. That's, that's a snapshot.

[00:05:19] Nicole: Mm-hmm. That's lovely to have you today. I'm excited to see where our brains go and Yeah. Already just thinking about the big feels.

I mean, I think that any sex radical is a big feeler. Right? You can't feel pleasure without the embrace of all of the other emotions, and so that means I cry hard and I come hard. Right?

[00:05:44] Emily: Yes. Yeah. Sometimes at the same time. Right? Exactly.

[00:05:51] Nicole: Yes, yes. And there's the politics of it all right there, so, yeah.

[00:05:57] Emily: Yeah. I mean, this segues nicely into really, I like I'm coming into more real, the Crip wisdom.

[00:06:06] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:07] Emily: That is so present with many different things, but in particular for me with pleasure. This is the big one. Um, you know, I, I obviously work with clients.

I just talk with folks about sex. I'm, I'm polyamorous, I'm like, I'm, I'm related with a lot of different people coming from different vantage points, but the almost confusion, but also real desire for people to be able to access these points of ecstasy that they feel like other people are, or that they've seen somewhere, or they imagine.

And the hard truth of that is, is I really believe that you won't be able to access that unless you consent to feeling all the things you know, when you are, when you, when you're disabled, you really, you have to, depending on the disability or like any given day, you are gonna die. A million times you are going to think that you know who you are and where your life is headed and you feel like you've got a grasp of it.

And then something will happen unrelated to any choices you've made where you suddenly just feel like shit. Mm-hmm. And then all of that, all of that shifts and changes. So you have to stay present. I'm speaking as a disabled person who obviously chose to go into embodiment work and I'm not pretending or acting like everybody just because they have some kind of impairment, whether or not they call themself disabled or not, or you know, 'cause that's an identity.

Right? So I'm not pretending that everybody comes with this inherent wisdom as soon as you've been inducted into the disabled community. But if you do decide to be embodied, even though it's extremely difficult when what you discover is very hard stuff. Usually on the other side of that, like when I went on this trip to deeply grief, grief that I had been avoiding since I was, you know, 13, I was like, okay, we're going to do it.

And I went to dance. This is my way of obviously heart opening, being with all the big energies. I was shocked that like a week, a couple weeks into it, I'm like, oh my God, this is joy. I don't think I've ever felt joy like this with this richness. I think I thought I was happy or thought I was, you know, smiling, laughing, whatever.

But I had no idea that that was just skating on the surface of what true embodied joy can feel like. And it wasn't until I, I gave myself that initiation and then did it in community. Yeah. Of I'm gonna be with all these things that I've avoided. So for all the people who feel like, oh God, I wish I could have that.

I feel like you can. Mm-hmm. You, I feel like you can, but you have to, and I know obviously everybody's got, you got your nine to five, you got kids, you got all kinds of things that might keep us from really consenting to surrender, because oftentimes we have to keep it together.

[00:09:16] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:16] Emily: We have to, we have so many moving parts, right.

We're living in a fucked up society no matter where we are. That's usually generally true, like Yep. We're just trying to keep it together. So I, I get that. This is a very privileged statement to say, even to have time and space to say, I'm really gonna feel all my feelings and let myself kind of, sometimes it is a falling apart so that we can, the real pieces of us can actually be felt.

So I, I know that that's not something everyone has access to. If we can find a way to have tiny bits of access to that, I do think this is the path

[00:09:54] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:09:55] Emily: Towards this like elusive. Ecstatic, you know, sexuality that we might imagine is just in the movies, and it's not someone who's experienced that, even with a very complicated body.

It's not. But I do think this is the crux, right? Is that we have to be willing to be with the messy, to be with the difficult to be with, uh, all the complicated feels, all the anger, the, the outrage at where we are in our life and how we feel like society has yeah. Not treated us right until this point.

Right? Like you have to like be with all of that to reclaim what is all of our birthright, right? Um, which is to have access to pleasure, uh, in some kind of way, shape, or form that's healing.

[00:10:46] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:47] Emily: Pleasure is healing.

[00:10:49] Nicole: Yes. Yeah, I know. Here we go. Here we go. You know, I, it's fun to meet people who are in similar spaces where I can say, oh, there's the politics of it all, and you hit it and run with it, you know, in terms of the systems and, and you're right, it's not.

Productive, quote unquote, under capitalism to be mourning. Right? You're not showing up for your work to do the thing for the cog, for the machine. Right? So the, the complexities of all of that. And then we hold the loss and the grief of the mourning of the large world things, your personal things, and particularly the sex things.

You know, there's so much loss and mourning under this rape culture and patriarchy. I mean, there's so much, so much in that alone that people, it's so hard to sit with. It's so hard to be with and to feel. And then I do think about the field of psychology, where often, sometimes that's the only place they stay.

Where they really put people who have been through trauma to like exposure therapy. Exposure therapy. Stay there, stay there, stay there. And don't even go to the place of the next of the pleasure. So, so much complexity here, but as you were speaking, you were, you were talking about what it meant for you to grieve.

Mourn the weight that you were holding. And I'd be curious, what were you holding that had been so pushed down to kind of move through it?

[00:12:16] Emily: Ooh, all right. Yeah. If it feels okay, it feels okay. That's all right. That's all right. Yeah. Um, I lost my sister when I was 12 and she was 16, and it was sudden and it was traumatic.

Oof. And I think, you know, like I'm starting to unpack, uh, my family is multiracial and we very much, I, I believe, operate on a whiteness as default. Sure. Um, as a part of a greater whiter society or white supremacist society. And I, I think that it's not the way that I grieve, it's not the way that I, you know, I found that when I went.

Somewhere else and could dance with it.

[00:13:05] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:05] Emily: It's, I didn't wanna be, so it was this separate kind of, you know, it was obviously very difficult on my parents and they kind of went kind of to a zombie place. Mm-hmm. You know, there was, I, I come from a big family, but most siblings had moved out of the house, so it was just, you know, me and my younger brother.

I think just trying to figure, figure that out, like how to stay in integrity and not create more problems for my parents. 'cause we very much, at least me, like it's, it's very much all people get proposed this in the early life. Kind of like, are you gonna choose yourself or are you gonna choose your family?

Like this is like all society goes back, even pre society goes back to this of, to belong is safety. So if you do something that threatens that, if you were ostracized, if you are shoved out or if you're moved out, that is a very vulnerable place to be. Yeah. So my chronic pain actually is the morning is expansive.

That's why I'm jumping, jumping all around. Then my chronic pain started when I was six. I said something to my mom, nothing was ever addressed with it because it was like a very, you know, religion. Religion and taboo. And people just not being able to talk about anything to do with sexuality, even though I was a 6-year-old who's just saying like, I hurt.

I hurt. It's in this particular spot, but I hurt and I don't know what to do about it. And then when that wasn't addressed, I know as a child it became more about, well, how do I keep my belonging? So apparently I'm too much, this pain is too much. I'm getting the message that this is not okay, and that this is my problem.

So I'm just gonna be with this as my problem. And allow that to kind of keep spiraling. That would be discovered later when I was 25 because I have, I was diagnosed with vulvodynia. I, you know, I've just come to realize it's actually vaginismus. There's many other components. I did an experimental surgery because the kind of stuff for, um, people with vulvas is just really archaic.

Yeah. I mean, it's just people are just blindly being like, well, maybe if we cut something, which is like, I don't know why I thought that, you know, but it was 25, so to do this experimental surgery. And then when they were in there, they discovered this massive cyst that was in my perineum, and as they said it, you know, it was just cycling all the tissue in around it.

So I had just gotten divorced. What, so head out on this dance journey when the divorce was fresh, the divorce feels very much related to. The illness changes that were happening. And that obviously caused our dynamic, our relationship to very much change from the adventurous, traveling young love that we were.

So 10 years later it's like, okay, well now the realness is sitting of, you know, what it's like to be with someone long term with disability. And, and I was in the beginning, everybody who's newly getting diagnosis, you're a mess. You know, like there's just, there's a lot of things that you don't, that you're, that are floating that you're trying to make sense of.

So it was that on the immediate, it was the stuffing down of my sisters, um, death and really just never processing or dealing with that because it was not dealt with in the family. It was not dealt with as a community. It was not, I went away to college. I didn't wanna know anyone. I didn't want anyone to know me.

So that was even easier though, to not have that follow me and talk about it. So it was just, yeah. Like, okay, we'll just like deal with that later. And it finally got to the point at my divorce was already happening and I spent a year of going deep with meditation and I came back into the workforce and worked at a yoga studio for like an eight, nine month, um, trial.

I was being with my body every day. And what that, what happens with that when you're actually moving your body and you're like, oh, all these things are like coming to the surface now and like wanna be seen, wanna be worked with, wanna be moved with. And at that time in, I was in Boston, I started going to, um, a party VU to Africa with DJ Adam Gibbons, who I just have.

So much reverence where I'm like, you started this shit. Um, that I just winced. I was like, I am. I would go, I would go every month alone and dance my ass off. Oh yeah. For hours and hours and hours and hours. I'd be the first one because the dance floor was open. You know, I was like, I don't give shit to be seen or like to see people like I'm here to dance myself free.

Right. And that is what led to leaving the country to do that even further. Um, and it was just kind of instantaneous. It was, it was like, oh, this is, I threw my back out and then my teacher very astutely was just like, it's not your back. I was like, thank you. I know. Like it wasn't, you know, it was like all the things I just said.

Um, and so I just kept dancing.

[00:18:25] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:18:25] Emily: Instead of being like, Ooh, I guess I'm not supposed to do this. You know, because I was really incapacitated. I was, you know, very stiff, laying down for a while. But that wasn't the message, oh, you're not supposed to do this. If I wanted to be self-protective, I could have gone into that right away.

But it felt like, nah, like this is cracking. You open even further. Mm-hmm. Go with it. Mm-hmm. And it was that dancing journey that then led to the sexuality journey. 'cause once I danced, I was for five months straight every day. Um, then it was like, oh, this is the other thing I've been avoiding since I was six.

All right. Time to visit this. Yeah. And then that led to the whole next I chapter.

[00:19:11] Nicole: Wow. Yeah. Taking that deep breath with you to be with that journey. Yeah. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a lot. I'm, I'm just thinking about, you know, holding it together for the family, really. Right. Like, I've got this, I'm put together, it's okay.

Right. And, and that like gripping that tightness.

[00:19:37] Emily: Yeah. Even to the point where I really was not okay and was definitely displaying symptoms that I was not okay. But at 14 I was the one to say to my parents, I need help. I'm not okay. Like somebody needs to usher me to the next thing. And then I proceeded to direct that kind of from then on about my medical care or mental health care.

It was like, okay, I'm gonna have to be the one to initiate and usher it and keep doing it. Uh, 'cause ultimately, I. I'm the one to be with it more than anybody else.

[00:20:07] Nicole: Mm-hmm. Right, right. And then once you are with the body, like you said, all of it started to come forward, right? Mm-hmm. When you do start to try and like sit, and especially in stillness, right?

Yeah. Sometimes when we're moving, moving, moving, there's constantly something there. We don't need to feel any of it. And that first time that you sit and you get quiet, it floods, right? It all starts to flood forward. Sometimes I'll feel that when I'm rock climbing, right? 'cause it's up on the wall and, and it's quiet and my brain should be quiet.

But if there's something heavy, it starts to come in real fast, rah, rah, rah. And I have to be like, whoa, okay, let's, let's sit with this. So I could imagine, yeah. As you were starting to connect with your body, just all of that starting to flood in almost like maybe overwhelmingly all of that content.

[00:20:55] Emily: Which is why I decided to move.

[00:20:57] Nicole: Right.

[00:20:57] Emily: I'm like, I ain't gonna sit with you. Right. It's way too much. It's vortex. Um, yeah. No, and that's the, the yoga that I had, the training I had gotten into, which I think was really key in helping me in my early days of having, I have multiple sclerosis, so my early was in the early days. Sure. And it, with these constant moving, challenging, you know, I've sensed like there's a whole abuse thing with Kundalini yoga and so I have a, you know, I'm not like a deep practitioner in the way that I was, but the practices still work, which are essentially repetitive, often very physically challenging.

Motions is, these are the ones I most resonated with because I got to see. Every second. Oh, yep. Nope, we're listening and we can keep doing it for this. One more second. Oh, nope, we're listening. Is this pushing into pain we're gonna regret or is this just difficult? Oh, this is just discomfort. Okay. I can, I can do this again.

And that has helped so much in life, uh, in general with all the taxing things and all the things that we wanna shy away from, like conversations about race or conversations about sexuality. It's like, how can we be actually be in the discomfort mm-hmm. And still be okay. Not be pushing it past our point, past the, you know, edge of resilience there, but Right.

But how can we be in that sweet spot where we're in just enough discomfort where we're learning, right. 'cause we have to have that in order, order to, to get in new information and update our bullshit and be, you know, like we have to, we can't just do the thing that's comfortable. Um, that's. I mean, yeah.

That's just a flat line. Yeah. Like that's maybe, I don't know. I like, maybe that's a pleasurable life. I can't really speak to it.

[00:22:50] Nicole: Oh, no, man. Under these systems, under these systems, if you're comfortable. I don't know.

[00:22:55] Emily: I don't know.

[00:22:56] Nicole: We gotta talk. We gotta talk, you know. But yeah, I, I teach yoga and I've definitely talked about it as like a, it doesn't have to be, like you said, like we don't wanna be hurting ourselves, but it isn't really a, for me, at least a pain practice for sure.

Mm-hmm. Right. Like. Even just thinking about the actual postures when you're stretching like that for me, feels uncomfortable as I'm literally feeling my muscles pull. But then you come back to the mat again and again and again, and you notice how far you've come over the years. And so, yeah, I do see these practices as, as stretching.

And then, you know, they make the statements like how you do one thing is how you do everything right. So, yeah. How are you looking at that posture when you're holding it? Do you have the mindfulness to notice? Oh, my brain is starting to say, I can't do this. This is impossible. Right. And what do you do with those thoughts when you hear that?

I think for me, I have rheumatoid arthritis and I've had this since I was a child as well. Mm-hmm. And, and yoga has been so helpful for me in terms of pain. Like I, I don't know where I would be without my yoga practice. I'd probably be much stiffer. So for me, it feels like the medicine that I do have to do for the rest of my life if I want to keep moving as much as I can today as I age.

Right.

[00:24:17] Emily: And how did you decide that? Because some people might look at that and be like, gosh, it would've been so much easier for you to choose, instead to just lay down more. And I'm not like, I'm not moralizing that either of these, but like what in you was like, I should try yoga.

[00:24:37] Nicole: Mm.

[00:24:38] Emily: And then when it was difficult, what kept you doing it?

[00:24:40] Nicole: Yeah, my, so my dad ran a gym and was a personal trainer. So then I have this like deep, deeper, you know, family dynamics of the body and movement being so crucial. And at the time I would play soccer and get Yeah, really intense leg aches. And so I was trying to like balance that out with something that would make me stretch more.

I couldn't touch my toes. It was not happening. So then I thought, oh, here's yoga, this thing, this stretching thing that, that's some big air quotes by the way, that is not what it is. Right? But at the time, that's what it meant to me when I was like 15, you know? And mm-hmm. I, it's funny to actually reflect on this right now because I was so Christian at the time that I remember thinking like, yoga is sinful.

Like, which is real crazy, you know, like, like when we really go back to my like roots there, I felt like I was, um, practicing something that was not respectful of the Christian religion. I was practicing at the time to be moving in yoga, and we've come a long ways since then to be where I'm at here. Um, but what kept me there was probably the, the feeling of peace that I got.

I was so anxious. My brain would be spinning constantly and I would come out of a yoga class feeling grounded when you'd hit that final Shavasana. Mm-hmm. It was life changing. And so then I kind of kept going from there and, and now as I've aged, it's been something that has been so important because when I'm not moving I notice I get stiffer.

And then there has been some research with, uh, rheumatoid arthritis saying that yoga's really helpful for that to keep moving and. It's definitely been a, a practice of having to listen to my body though, because I've lost like, the ability to do like anything on my hands. So I've had to adjust a lot.

Mm-hmm. And so it's been a really interesting space to like be in relationship with my body and like listen to what she needs and pull back some days and, and not get attached to the ego of things I used to be able to do mm-hmm. But can't do today and just kind of oof, you know, lots there. Yeah.

[00:26:42] Emily: Yeah.

There's a lot of Crip wisdom there of how to be with uncomfortable things but not have that be all or nothing. How, you know, like how to really listen and not have ego or any other soci, whatever, all the static come in and decide for you to override your own body and like what it needs. And I think all of that very much applies.

To sexuality. Yes. I was just thinking that. Yeah. I was like, there, it's, and what, that's the connection and what, and what Crip Wisdom has to offer for sexuality because it's not even, like, I can certainly get on my soapbox and be like, look, everybody needs to care more about disabled body pleasure. And I do believe that.

I do believe that as a deep feeler who's empathetic. And I also feel like disability is very much in a way, like Avia e Butler, and brings like hyper empathy. I, I don't think it's unrelated. I don't think my hyper empathy as a child is unrelated to what I would then develop. I don't think. Like, we feel a lot, and I'm not gonna say that every person with a disability identifies that way, but I, I do see that pattern of like, we feel a lot.

So how does that relate to sexuality? Well, like, we're gonna be capable of all the things, like all the things a little bit more. So I, not only do I, you know, we're a window into what is possible, but also I do feel like tending to our bodies is sacred work. Yeah. Specifically tending to crippled bodies is sacred work.

That this is something that as a society we should want to care about just as much as when we're talking about access needs, this is an access need to be able to be in pleasure is a basic human need. And not because I, I kind of prickle at what I've seen a lot of, which is I. Almost placating or just specifically around like vaginismus or something.

Mm-hmm. There's many other ways to play and here we will give you like these ideas and these, you know, accessible ways, maybe different toys, maybe different things. Yeah. All of that's needed. I'm not saying that that's not needed. And what do you do if you have vaginismus and you wanna fuck? Because that is the position that I am in.

And I think that is just, that is a valuable thing to lean into for everybody instead of like, yeah, but you have all these other things you can do. Sure. Or you should have learned by now that your body's like this, so why would you even Right. Poke the bear. Why would you even like, try to be in some, any kind of discomfort?

Why don't you just pivot and have like access to these other things? It's like, well, this is what my body, this is what my body, my spirit wants, so how can we make whatever it is like. Unfortunately, I feel like at least in the United States, we very much approach sexual sexuality like a conquest of bodies.

We need to decolonize the whole, our whole sexual framework. The fact that we take primarily white, cis, male narratives about what sexuality should look like, feel like, what should be pleasurable, and we apply it to all of us as if they were the ones to know. Even liberation is, or like what's truly freeing.

All the things like, but we're doing that we're not like, like who do we think owns these big free porn sites? Who do we think is bringing, bringing all the, who do we think is giving us the narrative even. Around different racial stereotypes and what they're good for, what their bodies are good for. Who do we think is giving us that narrative and why would all of us went sex ed?

Most of us, at least in high school, somewhere in the United States, we know how shit that was. We know that we were given anything about pleasure. Like we, there was little reference maybe to penile pleasure because we're, we were all like taught to avoid ejaculation, which is inherently linked in with some kind of understanding that that was gonna happen and they were gonna get to experience that.

[00:31:17] Nicole: Mm-hmm. Of course,

[00:31:18] Emily: Vulva was, none of us ever got vulva. Pleasure. Never got mentioned for anybody. No. So why would we think as adults that we have all the information that we need to have? It's like, this blows my mind that people feel like with sexuality, we shouldn't have to learn, we shouldn't have to be taught, we shouldn't have to research, we shouldn't have to.

Do any of this when we know what the education was, why do we think sexuality is the one thing that we shouldn't have that should be inherent, oh, we know how to do this. This is natural, but where do we get that narrative? Where do we get taught all the different things, like why do we think that we don't need to investigate this further?

We need to learn our jobs really well and the nuance and the, you know, hyper focus on a specialization or, you know, getting a PhD or whatever. But we don't need to learn and investigate sexuality that somehow this should be. So, this is when it runs into folks. This is, you know, my biggest pet peeve. I thank God I haven't had this for a very long time.

Um, I'm gonna knock out with that one. Uh, that do not do sex to me. There's nothing I hate more. Then someone who comes in, you know, it's like, I'm, I'm known for this thing, or women really like this, or I figured out these three tricks and I'm gonna apply this to your body. It's like the whole, what we should, when we're doing that, we should be spending time on learning the person's body that we're with.

I'm learning their soul, learning their spirit. Yeah. What makes, what's, where are your breaks? Where's your accelerator? What's, what are the things you need in this space? Essentially, we should be making sex accessible for everybody that we're interacting with. That should not just be, oh, I don't have to think about that, because they don't have any plans of dating anybody with mobility needs.

Okay. Like, you can add that, but you can say, but that doesn't mean that the person, the people that you are interacting with don't have accessibility needs. This is disabled wisdom, everybody. Has accessibility needs the things, maybe it's like, okay, maybe a lot of people who let's say, are able-bodied feel like, Hmm, sex is okay.

It is okay for me or whatever the pre people I'm interacting with, what if it could be amazing? Yeah. And I believe, oh yeah, that this is the truth for a lot of people that like, it really could be mind blowing. It really could be revelatory, liberatory. When I am having good sex, when I am paired with people who are really valuing, honoring my pleasure, and I can feel that and they're asking questions and we're trying to find ways to make it even more useful and enjoyable, I am stronger, more resilient, more resourced in all other areas of my life.

That is, this is like the the pleasure principle. This is the, this is the thing like. There's no reason why it should be yet another thing that feels like a job or yet another thing that feels demoralizing or that we're contorting ourselves to perform pleasure so many of us are performing pleasure instead of this real embodied moment of like, oh my God, I am being teleported.

I am like all the other things that are stressing me out. Suddenly have softer edges around them. All the, you know, like the, the magic that can happen with sexual healing, which is really, I believe why we are given this capacity in the first place. And so why are we putting our investments and our resources and, and just making it yet another thing to be beholden to, to not have space, to be extra.

Say what we need, say what we want, but it's not even that Most of us don't know. We need and want. Yeah. Because we're watching things that are telling us and then we're like, well, I guess that's what I'm so supposed to be into. And it's not that hair pulling and choking. It's not, I'm into that. It's not that it's not exciting, but is that the only thing that's exciting?

Like there's like a million things that we might not even know? It wasn't until I had a curious lover

[00:35:50] Nicole: Mm.

[00:35:50] Emily: Who was going around the perimeter of my elbow.

[00:35:55] Nicole: Mm.

[00:35:55] Emily: And I realized I can elbow gasm. Yeah. It was that moment of like, oh my God. And then me believing, you know, keep saying yes and believing it and not feeling like I'm such a weirdo.

Mm-hmm. This person's gonna think this is the weirdest shit if I just let myself be in pleasure with this. To be in a safe, accessible place where we were experimenting. It wasn't somebody who was like, I'm going to show you what your body is good at and what you like. You know, it was like we're finding it out in real time.

I would've never known that, you know, this is the beauty of being a relationship with others. Of course, we can be great of pleasuring ourselves. Of course we can be our greatest lover, but we also learn in community. Yeah. And we come back into the fold in community and heal wounds around sexuality and enoughness and being too much and like all the things in, in real time.

If we can be with curious lovers.

[00:36:51] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:52] Emily: So that my greatest desire for folks in their sexual worlds is to find the access points that make sex accessible for them and whoever they're relating to. So this also, it starts with the self. It's like I've gotten a real with, I like ambiance. Like oand, like I Sure.

I certain temperature it matters like Yeah. Certain incense matters. Yeah. I only, I only use pink lighting. I hate any other lighting. Totally. I come to acknowledge that about myself, like most of my, even my lamps in the living room, like I only really wanna be in the soft

[00:37:32] Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:37:32] Emily: Pink to red glow. Like to just accept that about the self of maybe I need certain music, maybe I need, um, to take a bath first.

I've also discovered because I have so much chronic pain, I need whoever I'm interacting with to maybe give a little massage. It doesn't have to be a full massage, but if that is, you know, a Volvo massage, great. If that's legs, if that's something that might be involved in our sexuality, that now feels receptive and open and wants to be giving and like.

I just, my greatest wish is that we didn't accept whatever status quo we're currently operating at, and we allowed ourselves to stretch those edges of visioning of what might this look like? What might it look like if I was so dedicated to whatever partner's, liberation, what might that look like sexually, not, I'm not, you're not a body here to conquest.

You're not a body that want to submit, even when we're playing with BDSM, you know, like, 'cause that's possible to play with that and still obviously be in reverence, be in curiosity, be in, um, unpacking, you know, stereotypes and tropes by even maybe even playing with those, right? No matter the realm that we're in, that it is possible to be devoted to be like.

Tell me how to guide your pleasure, guide your body into more freedom. Yeah. Into more liberation. And then imagine what the rest of our lives would look like. Yeah. Imagine what societal change would happen. It's like, I mean, like big, I know this personally. Yeah. I'm like, like a well fucked woman is a totally different boss, you know?

Yes. I'm, I know what I want. I know what I like. Yeah. I know the love I have to give. Like, we just don't, you don't tolerate the same things. You speak up more. You, you know, you're in more of your own juice and pleasure independent of other people bringing that to you. Like if this was on a wide scale and for all genders, my goodness, you know, what a world, uh, we could live in.

And I don't want anyone to be left out of this. Which is why I also focus on not just the wisdom. Of bodies with health challenges, but that true liberation involves that we all give free. Yeah. And I, it is too often that certain bodies, existences, qualifiers get left behind.

[00:40:20] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:20] Emily: And in sexuality, that's a big one.

Yep. Um, because it's assumed that disabled bodies can't access it, don't want that. Have other concerns, other things to think about, which is true. There's a lot of other bigger things to think about. And as someone who can see how much resource this gives to all the difficult things. Yes. Yeah. Duh. Yeah. We should be doing this Right.

For each other. Yeah. Yeah. For each other. And making it accessible.

[00:40:51] Nicole: Absolutely. It's so beautiful to meet other people who see the same like revolution, right. Of what it would mean for all of us to be that embodied, to be that able to communicate our desires that. Able to love and show up for the people around us and their pleasure.

Oh my God. I mean, it truly is a revolution. I, I can't even imagine what world we would be in, but it would be so much better than what we have now. And you know, when you were saying earlier, the people who aren't unpacking and getting uncomfortable with this, I, I wanna end rape culture or at least be a part of the movement that puts a serious dent in it, right?

Mm-hmm. And that means getting uncomfortable and unpacking for a lifetime. Mm-hmm. I don't imagine there is going to be an end of unpacking the ways the system has impacted our access to pleasure, our access to embodiment, our access to communication. I mean, it is so, so deep. And I'm in this, um, loss in mourning class right now, and.

One of my colleagues, she does a lot of work with, uh, cancer patients and she was talking about specifically the difficulties of people who, uh, choose to not undergo treatment for cancer. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. People who don't go through chemo and all these other treatments that we have and what it meant for those clients that she's working with to come up to doctors who again and again say, yeah, but you should do the chemotherapy.

Have you actually really thought about this? Let me tell you again and again and again, and, you know, we're having this conversation in class and I, you know, raise my hand. That's consent culture right there. Someone actively saying, this is what I want with my body. And someone in a power dynamic who comes back and says, you don't actually know.

Let me give this to you. Let me do this. You're wrong. You're wrong. Right? And so. I think you and I both see the world of what it means for sex and then see the implications of what it means on that larger scale when you think about something even like that, right? Bodily autonomy to how you wanna die, how you wanna experience your life, and all of that.

And so it breaks my heart too when I hear people who say that I'm too stressed to have sex. Mm-hmm. Again, I understand the systems, I understand when you don't have the time, when you have the kids, the multiple jobs, the other things, and that that reality. But to have one of the most powerful stress relievers in your body to experience pleasure, to let go of that tension, to have that possible and to say you're too stressed out to access it.

I think there's so much more behind that. And I think part of it is that the sex isn't that enjoyable if you're in that, that's what I was gonna say. Right? Like if you're in that frame of like, do I really wanna do that again? Ugh. No, I'm, I'm, I'm too stressed out for that. That's actually, no, no, no. It's like, fuck, there's so much, the cost benefit is just like not Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right. Like there's so much more to dream of. And if you think that you're too stressed out for sex, man, I wanna sit down with you and start dreaming. I wanna sit down with you and start act like discussing ways that are beyond penis and vagina sex. Like there's so much more, like you said, to have that lover who is curious with your elbow and to have that experience.

I'd be curious if the people who are stressed out even imagine that world of what it would mean to be touched like that. Right. I just, I feel like there's so many boxes of shame. So many boxes of what is possible that we really have to dismantle to expand. And, and for me, I've, I've grown so much in having multiple levers, right?

Mm-hmm. Especially as a woman, I think this is like a really part of the narrative that, you know, the woman's supposed to want one person and

like, oh my God. You know? And for me, like, and historically, let's go back beyond, you know, our current existence back to, you know, before colonization of this land and all of that, right? Like, that is not what we saw. And so for me, and I know you mentioned that you're polyamorous too. I've grown so much in having multiple lovers who highlight different things, who play with me in different ways and help me to expand in fantasies and areas of my life that truly comes through being in community with these things.

It's been transformative. Yeah.

[00:45:22] Emily: Yeah. And I'm, and I, you know, I would never. Try and say that, you know, like that's, you know, polyamory or the way I choose to live as like superior to, but it, there is a, you know, there certainly is a questioning of monogamy and the roots and ownership. Um, an ownership over pleasure.

Totally. So to have a spouse, you know, like the way that marriage was set up, even like the male, like, I kind of, I own you.

[00:45:54] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:45:54] Emily: Um, and I am the one responsible for your pleasure and you don't get pleasure elsewhere. Right. So even that people can, people can start to access this, I think even outside of having more than one lover.

Totally. Like you can, you know, when I started working with the land, I'm so excited for gardening to happen again. Yeah. It's just like one more week away and I'm just gonna start planning things like when you start having a different, for example, a relationship with the land and being able to create life and that way we'll nurture it.

And usher it along and then be there for the harvest. And like, there's so much satisfaction that can still happen outside of totally, let's say sexually relating with multiple people. It is like expanding, really expanding the pleasure potential. Like when I like this whole conversation, it's not just what we think of as, for me, sex is, is like all the things, you know, I'm, I'm queer and I, I think that relates to my, you know, sexuality, but way beyond that, it's just like, it's different.

It's a way of turning things on its head. Totally. It's a way of doing things in ways that we're not, that are not anticipated or not scripted. Like that's, you know, when I discovered I have a deep affinity for Moss, I, this is such a special, um, life form to me. Um, and then when I get experience, I. The deep satisfaction of having my feet and then mm-hmm.

Sitting then this is early days pandemic and I just discovered, like, my, my comfort, my go-to was to go sit on like the best moss patch. Yeah. Bear pussy just like me. Amazing. A moss. Just like, I was like, this is amazing. And then I, you know, I was solo for like a year as like a health compromised person. We didn't know all the things and whatever.

Like, so I wasn't, and that was like during that year, it was like, where are all the access points for access? Totally. Like how much can I feel and be alive and be aware of the physical sensation I get by interacting with other life forms in a reverent, respectful way. Um, totally. It's gonna be far beyond human, you know, sexual partners, even if we are in monogamous relationships.

Yeah. Where we can still access these, um, really expansive ways of, of enjoying and feeling our body. Uh, beyond and like, yeah, I mean, I'm a sexological body worker. I work, there's many people who come in that say, uh, primarily cis men who are like, yeah, my, my wife or my person just isn't interested anymore.

Mm-hmm. And like, I, I don't say straight, usually straight out of the gate, but we like get there. Like, it's not that she's not interested, I can almost guarantee that it's not that she's not interested, it's it's you, like you are the problem and the solution together. Like, it's just that it's not captivating, enticing, this person's not feeling met.

I'm also a scar tissue worker and it is crazy the amount of people with Vva obviously, um, who give birth, but also I. I, you know, I have a lot of scar tissue from, uh, that cyst removal. I mentioned also an ovary removal, which is another cyst. There's a lot of, there's just, we more likelihood that that's gonna be present in our bodies and the amount of, of people that I see or even hear Yeah.

You know, these sharp, sudden sharp pains. The, like, it's just gotten to the point of being too, it's too uncomfortable. It's not enjoyable that we don't, I mean, this is a huge disservice of the American medical asso, you know, association, all the doctors everywhere. But there's many, there's much of this in the industrial, medical industrial complex, but certainly that this is not talked about.

Yeah. You know, comfort and like, I can even remember even when I started to see people when I was 16 about, 'cause I didn't know this is the, like Judeo-Christian. Growing up in a pseudo cult, uh, you know, but also just the greater larger society of when I first started having sex, which was before my friends, I didn't know that it wasn't supposed to be really painful.

Mm. Yeah. That is a travesty that I could go through sex education. Yeah. I could. And that's what I'm left with. Yeah. Is like, oh, I'm assuming this is supposed to be a sacrificial act.

[00:50:24] Nicole: Yep.

[00:50:24] Emily: This is supposed to be me giving up my pleasure and my body for somebody else, that this is supposed to be the way that I bond and connect with somebody, even if it's highly uncomfortable to downright painful for myself.

Like this fucked up. But that is, you know, I didn't know for like a year. And then when other, you know, my best friend at the time was having a orgasmic, delightful experience. I was like, wait, what?

[00:50:52] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:50:53] Emily: And had to kind of like reorient all the things, but like that. Was presumed normal for me. Mm-hmm.

Because of the greater society, the messaging, all the things that we're getting. And then like for doctors and things, post procedure, whatever, birth, all the things to not have guidance on, aftercare, on, you know, scar tissue remediation, which people can do themselves on. Like certain things that we can make scar tissue lessen, you know, lessen the impact that it's going to cause.

If we can heal in a supportive environment, which are. Birth care in the US and our aftercare is atrocious. So we're not given the space and the time to just be, to integrate, to be with baby, to, um, have communal support. We're like very isolated. I know. Stressed. And then the, it's like, get back to work and do that at the same time.

But you know, like of course the scars that we have, most of us right? You know, most people who've given birth, there's gonna be some kind of scarring. Of course, that's gonna be more complicated, right? And then of course, that's going to affect our sex life right after birth, and then for decades beyond.

And we might just say, I'm not feeling it. I don't want to tonight.

[00:52:09] Nicole: I'm too stressed.

[00:52:10] Emily: I have a headache, right? I'm too stressed. Um, when really it's like there's pain here, there's discomfort, there's a longing to be seen and met, um, in this real embodied, uh, reverent way. And it's possible to heal. I'm healing the, I have a current lover, I'm healing scar tissue.

You know, just yesterday, like it's possible when we are in these spaces to do these things. And so if anyone ever feels, yeah, like, oh, I just don't care. It's not, it's understandable. There are definitely people who are like, this is not a big part of my life. I choose to focus on other things. That's fine.

Yeah. Like nobody should feel pressured to be like, but sex is amazing. You should, you should want to like nobody, like everyone just is fine Exactly where they are. Right. But also to be given like some options. Totally. To actually like have it be enjoyable or have it be met with some curiosity, you know, like I

[00:53:10] Nicole: Exactly.

[00:53:11] Emily: Oh, I definitely believe in adult sexual education. Um, which is why I do what I do because like we have to get it at some point. We have to question these narratives we've been given and the very little small information we've been given about our own bodies. Totally. Because we definitely don't know how to navigate and normalize that for everybody.

Not just like, you're behind or you're a sex slacker, or, you know, you're whatever. Like, but to just normalize it. No, we all have learning, myself included.

We all have learning to do and really with every single lover.

And when I say accessibility, like before, when I, I mean that, yeah, it might be a pillow, uh, it might be something really simple and easy.

It might be a time of day.

[00:53:59] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:53:59] Emily: I know that like I have a lot more symptoms in the morning. Like morning sex is just like not, uh, gonna be a thing. And then once the sun goes down, I have like the sundowning effect, which is, can be common with MS and other things. So if you can catch me in the sweet spot of late afternoon, like, and that might be seen as like, oh, that's too extra.

Un scripted and dah, dah, dah. Okay, well you haven't seen how expansive late afternoon sex could be. Like, I'm sorry for you. Uh, but like to question these same narratives we have about, I just wanna do what I wanna do. I just wanna lose my mind. I just want it to be easy. I just want all so many things that I've heard.

From people who couldn't be down with my body. And it's just oof, you know, in response to that, I'm like, who, who the fuck gave you the lie that this shit was supposed to be easy? Yeah. Who told you that? We're just like, where do we get this information from? Some bogus sources if we're really gonna dig and try to like find, like, where did I get that idea?

[00:55:02] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:03] Emily: And I do think this rules over into relating in general, you know? Yeah. Like, I'm, I'm out here dating, I'm on four dating apps. I, you know, I, I'm a serious student of relating like I love it and I have a high capacity to like, interact with many different types of people and I thrive on it. I love it.

And. A very common narrative that I hear from people, even though I'm pretty choosy, pretty picky, I'm not gonna match with that many people. Like the very common narrative of folks feeling like this should just be easy. I should, we should just like, relating should be easy. We should know how to do this.

This seems like too much work. Like whenever any, you know, boundaries are brought up or Oh God, I'd be more comfortable with this other thing, people are like, you know, like our low ass resiliency, I would say. Totally. And dealing with the discomfort even of relating of becoming, of becoming more of our true selves.

And even how do we relate, this is the work, this is, and then, and then we can get to the point of yeah, really being down for each other, really claiming each other as my dear loved one, Lori, who I think was just on, says, you know, like. This is, yeah, to be so down for the other who is really just us, um, work needs to be done.

I do believe that, yeah, work needs to be done. And I do see a sharp difference and where at least folks who are falling into certain gendered roles. I see, I see a sharp difference between cisgendered men and cisgendered women as an example. Right. Um, just like when I, when the, those two worlds come together in my relating, there is a stark difference.

[00:56:59] Nicole: Absolutely.

[00:57:00] Emily: Yeah.

[00:57:01] Nicole: Yeah. The orgasm gap is very real. Right. Uhhuh very real, and yeah. You know? Yeah. Even just thinking back to porn, you don't see the consent conversations, you don't see the aftercare, you don't see the, Hey, can we pause and add more lube? Hey, can you add the, we don't. Or do it all Right. Si, si.

You know? Oh, man. Yeah. And so much of this, again, is like you were saying, the narratives. Right. The narratives of what is possible. And until we get new narratives, yeah, of course you're too stressed out for sex. Of course. You don't want that. Right. That makes so much sense. I wouldn't want that, you know?

Mm-hmm. Like, and, and especially when you've. My heart. You know, just thinking about the people who are in relationships of monogamous or non-monogamous types. 'cause this happens across the board where you feel compelled to give your body to somebody. And then you have that sex like that. And then again, you have another experience where you're like, oh, I should do this.

And then as you continue to do that, you're building a pattern in your brain. Just basic classical conditioning of this act is not that great. This act is not that great. I'm doing, I'm giving, ugh. You know? And then so when you think about it. Of course. Right. And so getting outside of those boxes to dream of what can be possible often requires another relationship to show you, right?

Whether that's a sex education website, 'cause that's a relationship or a book. Mm-hmm. That's a relationship. Some ethical porn, right? A new person, right. I think people forget how often we are in relationship with more than just, even in a monogamous dynamic, you're one partner because your concepts of sexuality, your narratives are shaped by the cultural consciousness.

Again, even the rom-com that you watch and the way that they have sex is shaping your consciousness of what is possible, right? Yeah. So like just believing that we're in our silos is not really accurate, and so. Getting outside of that to see other kinds and yeah, I really appreciated the nuance you had of, you know, non-monogamy not being enlightenment.

I get really frustrated when, you know, I, my community has so many people in it that I love dearly that practice all these different forms of relating and it's beautiful to watch us all be building relationships. And I get frustrated when the non-monogamous community comes in and says, we know better.

We're the one way. This is enlightenment over here. And it reminds me a lot of psychedelics. You know how some people came out and said, this is what you do, put it in the water. Everyone grows and learns. And the reality is like, you know, psychedelics are a non-specific amplifier. Have I learned a lot about myself?

Fuck. Yeah. Have I learned a lot about myself in non-monogamy? Hell yeah. Does it mean I'm more enlightened than the person who doesn't do the psychedelic? Absolutely not. I've seen many people do non-monogamy so poorly, so many people that do psychedelics and never learn, right? Like, so I, I think getting out of that sort of like hierarchy is so important to understand that we're all crafting our own relationships with pleasure.

And that's gonna look so different for all of us. We all have a narrative of the life and the dreams of the vision of what we wanna create. And what I invite people to do is to, to feel into their body for that one. Like truly, I want you to take that deep breath feel into your body and vision outward where you wanna go.

What does that look like? And, and like, feel that excitement in your body when you dream about that vision. Whether it's one people, multiple people at the orgy, no people in a life of celibacy. What is the thing that actually gets you dancing and makes you want to feel that ecstatic life force? And every person is gonna have a different life and journey with that.

And, but I, I think it does require us to come back to the body to be critical about the messages, the boxes we've been given to expand your community out, to learn new perspectives and then to feel back into your own body of, of what's speaking to you.

[01:01:08] Emily: Yeah. And I, I think, you know, I, I should name that like a lot of folks.

To be able to be with the body and access the body is a deep privilege. You know, it's a deep privilege in mind that the, that obviously the reason why effective trauma work generally involves the body is because that's where these things lodge themselves and where they live. So to not minimize either, you know, like the, the, the reasons why so many folks do not access the body.

Similar to what I said in the beginning of like, if you have a life to carry on with, if you have people depending on you, if you have the machine to be in, like it's designed, the machine is designed for you to not be in your body. So to, to inhabit your body for just a breath is a radical act. And there's oftentimes a mini like.

Softness and, and access points that we need for that too. Like when I work with folks, 'cause you know, sexological body work has sex in the name, but it's often nervousness or regulation or being able to come into some just awareness of what is actually happening in here. And generally when we, when we start, like it can be overwhelming, like, because all the things come forward like, oh, I have this to tell you, and you remember 10 years ago.

And like, it's like all the things are coming forward. So it really is helpful to work with a, a trained practitioner if that is the case. You know, if you know that there's reasons why you have locked off pieces of selves or maybe all of yourself, um, to be able to access because it, it does help to have a witness and, and someone to, to titrate to do that slow enough.

Um, you know, when we do fine, give consent to say, okay, I wanna. I wanna approach this, you know, which is why I gave, like, when I went on my dancing journey, I wasn't doing that by myself. Right? Like, because I, I think that would have been too overwhelming. Um, but yes, the body is, the body is the access point.

But because of the society we live in, there's often so much clutter and junk piled up, you know, in the doorway in front of, you know, or just preventing us from even being able to access that something that can be, um, an access point for people is to find resource outside of the body.

[01:03:33] Nicole: Hmm.

[01:03:33] Emily: So if you have, this is a big reason why Maso, I'm also super into ambiance, is like, if you can find something in your space that brings, like you notice, Ooh, I get calmer there, and that's easier to recognize, Ooh, there's calmness in my body than if you just went right into the body.

Because that can be sometimes not Yeah. A great excess point or overwhelming, like you can find something in the space. That still elicits that thing in you. And then little by little maybe start to notice, oh, me and my body have an interaction with the things around me. Okay.

[01:04:05] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:06] Emily: And then that can become an access, the point.

And then me beginning to the point where it's starting to notice what our body is saying, you know? Or like, and then starting to decode that language and then starting to have actual conversation with the body in a way that has probably been trying to speak to us since forever. Um, and that just turns into body injuries and all the things.

Yeah. You know, when the body gets louder and louder. But it, in my experience, it definitely was like a, a process that I needed to like kind of hop on each stone. Sure. And then it's like once I could get to one thing, I'm like, okay, now maybe I can start to access the thing, the comfortability I feel with accessing, I.

The real wisdom my body has right now, you know, realistically has taken over three decades. Oh yeah. You know, so if anyone's listening, it's like, yeah, no, this is, it's work. Which is why I come back to like, I don't know who told us this wasn't supposed to be, to unravel colonization from

[01:05:10] Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:05:10] Emily: Centuries. You know, like, I don't know who, where we got this like narrative that we should be able to just do some of these things. It's like we got a lot to unpack and rewrite and dance on the graves of, you know, like there's, there's, there's a lot and there is a lot. There is a lot.

[01:05:30] Nicole: Absolutely.

[01:05:31] Emily: I'm curious, Nicole, if oof like, what do you really, the way I said that?

You're like, I'm ready, I'm ready. No, I am wondering what's something you really love to do in your life?

[01:05:44] Nicole: My first immediate answer was rock climbing. That came to mind.

[01:05:48] Emily: Okay. Okay. And what is something you can imagine would make that a little bit more accessible to you? Can you, even if it's not currently a possibility in the, in the human realm, what is one thing that you can imagine might make that, make it so that you could do that a little bit more or enjoy a little bit more?

[01:06:09] Nicole: Trusting myself. Mm, so hard, man, it's so hard. I can top rope really easily, which is like, um, a, a more secure way to do it where the line goes up and down where when I'm leading and I know that if I don't make the next thing, I'm going to fall and take that movement with my body and whatever, how my body's gonna respond to that.

Um. So then every time I'm going to do that next clip, it's an internal battle of can I do this? Am I strong enough? Will I make it? And then the spiral of thoughts can go, yes. Or it can go, Nope, you can't, you shouldn't do this. You should stop. This is scary. And so more self-trust would be really radical.

I'd probably have more fun. Fun. Okay.

[01:06:54] Emily: Okay. That's, and I, and I would term that an accessibility need. Yeah. You know, like, like that is like, okay, if you had more, and then it can start to be a, a chain of, okay, what would allow you to have more self trust? That might be something in you, it might be something in the greater society.

It might be somebody, something that you haven't, maybe you have a, a climbing partner that like I do a certain, you know, catchphrase or certain things that are done before the climb that allows that to be more possible for you so that you can really be in your fullness, enjoying that And yeah. Receiving your own enjoyment and like letting these things kind of just ripple and like ping pong.

This is, that's the same thing with sex, you know? Oh, totally. If you just like, okay, what do I really, because this sex might not be for people listening, that might not be your jam. That might not be the thing that you're really curious about. Like, how can I get more access to even more pleasure in this?

It might be pottery making. Mm-hmm. It might be, you know, like, like I said, gardening. It might be something else to be in the practice of asking ourselves this and practicing it because it's so edgy to say to other people. Yeah. It can be easier and safer even to practice in the non-sexual realm because sexuality is so loaded.

Right. And we come with all of our scripts and all of our desires to please and like just the whole story since the beginning of our study, I know sexuality or the beginning of time, so like it is. That sometimes this, in some ways this is like going directly for the body. Mm-hmm. Even if your body's not ready to be investigated, to go directly to try and get clear on needs, wants, and how to say those in the sexual realm is that's some advanced shit like that is like, you know, like that with most people I work with, the sentiment is I don't know what I need.

[01:08:53] Nicole: Right.

[01:08:53] Emily: I do not know what I want. And that is very specifically designed by the state. If we comment on awareness of what we need and want and then try to be in alignment with that. So few of us would be giving our time, our shits, our money to how to the systems that we do like. Yeah. They would not be able to function with the people who are actively the same way.

People are like, why don't we teach consent in schools? I'm like, think about it. Why don't you think of school? Wanna teach kids consent? How many kids would walk out, you know, I would've walked the fuck out if the school taught me in middle school, like, do what you think is right. Do what your body is telling you.

Like, I wouldn't have been there. It was bullshit. You know? Like I, I wasn't receiving the education that I hunkered for, that I knew was there. Right, right. So there's reasons why these things are not taught. Yeah. So when we, when we even start to dip our toes in this, to give ourselves a ton of grace and space and kindness around the difficulty with that, because we have been conditioned since birth with our parents.

Like as kids, you're not some, now it's a thing where you can, you see kids choosing not to hug people. This is like a fairly newer thing where it's like kids are given bodily autonomy and trusted. So that is a, a great new thing that is happening. But I think for many of us, we were not given these options and it's like, why not?

Well. As like a kid, like I threw massive amounts of temper tantrums. Mm. As a kid who was just like flipping out a lot of the time, who was trying to say, I'm not happy, I don't like this, I don't wanna do this, don't put my body in that thing. You know, this was basically being said non-verbally, you know, if that choice had been given in a family of seven where I'm near the bottom, you can't, I think a lot of we're corralling, we're always corralling or being corralled.

Mm-hmm. You know, it's kind of like, go along with the flow, go with the status quo. Don't be too disruptive. Don't, don't have special needs, don't have preferences. Mm-hmm. Because then it's gonna make it more difficult for you to submit to the mediocre whatever that you're being offered. You know, it's like, well, what about that other thing?

It's like much shinier and more enticing. No, no, no. Don't, don't think about like what you actually want. So we're conditioned for this all the way until like current time. Mm-hmm. So when we, when we're with the most tender bits of our sexuality to give ourselves that, like buffering around that and not be frustrated, you know, sometimes like I'm a deep feminist and I just pulled this shit yesterday where I did something, you know, that my body was like, nah girl, we don't wanna do this.

I know it's like, maybe mentally you do, but like your body's, my body was telling me like, nah. Yeah. So I did it maybe for like a minute longer than I really should have, and then was able to say the thing, but then like, was hard at myself and I cried and like it was this whole thing. Totally. It's like.

Yeah. But it was like a journey of like all the things, all the stories fed to me, all of what it means to be a good lover and a

[01:12:12] Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:12:13] Emily: Good girl. And to be pleasing. Right. And, you know, like, to be easily pleased, um, which is a big narrative, you know, if you, you're in a fem body, um, to be able to be appreciative and satisfied, which is a great thing to be satisfiable.

Um, but also there's a whole complicated narrative around that, right? So as people get into this, I still stick to my vision of what would it be like if we all just kind of leaned in and owned being with our own and each other's bodies.

[01:12:47] Nicole: Totally.

[01:12:47] Emily: The curiosity and discovery, and I'm not gonna pretend that it's not loaded in the society that we were conditioned in.

Yeah. And our current family dynamics and whatever else. You know, baggage is in there. It's, it's in there. What I'm saying is a very active confrontation

[01:13:09] Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:13:09] Emily: Of the narratives that we've been given. So it doesn't mean that those things won't come up.

[01:13:13] Nicole: Right.

[01:13:13] Emily: It doesn't mean that like, I won't occasionally go past my boundaries and cry or, and then blame myself even though that I need the opposite.

I just need a little bit care infection. Doesn't mean that we won't still fall into those things. Yeah. But to be able to really be in, you know, like to, to be relating with someone who could hang with all of that and be like, I don't want you to do that. Let's just try, you know, like next time, as soon as you feel that, like, say the thing and we're just gonna, we're just gonna try and like practice that because you don't have to do that.

Yeah. I know there's a reason why you did it, but you don't have to do that. Yeah. And just slowly rewrite, many of us feel that we're too much. Or not enough. It's so funny. Many of us feel both. Yeah. So interesting that we picked Love that brain. How do, how do we do that if we do both? It's magical. But this, yeah, this plays heavily, and I know my own sexuality is having what I sometimes have termed in the past, a difficult body.

[01:14:14] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:14:15] Emily: Or a fussy body.

[01:14:16] Nicole: Mm.

[01:14:17] Emily: Or a, you know, like hard to please body. Yeah. Particular body, whatever, like the terminology we used for it. And as I come more into this field and into my own body and awareness too, I'm like, that's all of us. Yeah. That's all of us. I know. It doesn't have to be, you know, we don't have to call ourselves disabled or have quote, special needs.

The reality is we all have unique bodies. Every single one of 'em. We all have things that that work for us and things that do not. We all have things that would make some things slightly more relaxing, more enjoyable, more easeful. Even if it's just a pause.

[01:14:57] Nicole: Yeah.

[01:14:58] Emily: Yeah. And this, this is my bucking up against sex being done to me.

Sure. I think this is often, I just, I see this in the greater culture. I see this, especially with young folks and like early sexuality, this performative, this doing to this being a part of mm-hmm. What you termed, you know, dismantling rape culture. To me, this is a part of it. Absolutely. I think a lot of us like to feel like rape culture is this very perpetrate, like very clear lines, like who's the perpetrator and this is what they look like and this is what the situation is.

And I would argue that something like having a culture where it's common to be performing and doing sex to somebody is a, is a lighter version of that and still related. Um, if we're not. Familiar with consent. If we're not checking in with people, if we're not, um, if we don't care about their pleasure, if we're not trying to make it the most enjoyable it possibly can be.

Mm-hmm. We have at least a layer of that, of taking, of conquest. And the person who's in that role might not even like it or want to be in that role at all. Right. So sometimes this can just happen in on autopilot because the person who's performing and doing sex to somebody is doing it, let's say, out of a deep sense of anxiety.

[01:16:27] Nicole: Yeah.

[01:16:28] Emily: Of, I don't know what to do. Right. And I don't have the words, and I, I, I, I feel inadequate. And if I ask this person and they, they say how they might want it better, we also aren't given the tools. We're not taught how to receive that feedback gracefully. And not make it about us and not think we're, that means we're doing something bad.

Mm-hmm. Someone is just saying their own needs and like how that can bring us into more connection, but we're not taught any step of that. No steps are taught, which is again, why I am shocked that grown ass adults are like. I know how to sex. I don't, I don't need that education. Totally. I'm like, are you serious?

[01:17:07] Nicole: Totally.

[01:17:08] Emily: This is what we were taught. Literally nothing. Yeah, I know.

[01:17:11] Nicole: I remember dating someone very briefly because of literally this sentence where he was like, oh, I go on nonverbals for consent. And I was like,

[01:17:19] Emily: they all say that.

[01:17:20] Nicole: Fuck was like, fuck, I like, this is the end of this relationship unless you're gonna start to pain me, because there's a lot to teach you.

Amen my friend. Amen. But yeah, totally. I was even thinking while you were talking about how, um, like myself as a woman, right, like I've been taught to cross my legs. I've taught my cross my legs, keep them tight. Cross that cross, right? How do you think all of that tension or even. When you look back to women portrayed in media of their voices, right?

My voice probably would've been like, hi, I'm Nicole, and this is what I do. I talk about sex. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because I'm holding this in my chest and that's femininity. How are you supposed to orgasm a breath practice, right? When that's where you're holding, right? Yeah. Like there's so much to unpack here, and I know you and I are gonna have long careers for the rest of our lives, really growing and learning.

And I think that's why I like to talk about it as a practice, right? Mm-hmm. You fall, we get back up, we fall out for the posture, we go back, right? And over the time we, we see how maybe it took less time. This time. Mm-hmm. You know, we less of that rumination and getting into that negative thought loop. And then of course there's the day where it's much more time and then you're like, oh, it is a spiral.

This is not a clear up journey. Right. Um, but yeah, I really appreciated what you had said about like, the metaphor of climbing to being like a, a parallel to this. 'cause I, I was thinking about that in terms of like, you know, there are days where I'm on the wall and I, I need to pause and I, I have to trust that when I ask for that pause and the rope slack to be taken out, I can look down at my partner and they're okay with me waiting.

Like they're just sitting there waiting while I'm taking my break. Right. Hey, do you know how many years it took for me to be able to say, Hey, can we pause having sex? I just need a break. I could cry so many tears for how many years it took me to get to that space with someone, let alone holding the weight of how many people are in that space.

Oh, you know, that is so, so deep, and you know, we'll, we'll take more conversations like this again and again here in this public space for all of the listeners in our communities. What makes rock climbing feel more possible is when I look at other people who are doing it and I'm saying, okay. Mm-hmm.

They're doing it. They're somewhere I can get to. These are people I can talk to and I hope more people, you know, of course the listener tuning into this, you know, like the space is here too. But do you have people that you can dialogue with, that you can have these conversations? I also think that's how we end rape culture, because rape culture thrives in silence, right?

This is an act I can't talk to anybody about. So when bad things happen, I can't talk to anybody about it. And so to start talking about that and to move to the full space of pleasure again, what are your fantasies? What are you exploring? Like, again, we grow in community with that, and so finding spaces where you can talk and be in community, it's, it's truly life changing.

And I'm so appreciative of you for coming onto the podcast today and, and for opening up and being vulnerable about your own journey and for really, like speaking with the passion and conviction that we all need around this. Truly, we will have a lifetime of these conversations.

[01:20:44] Emily: We'll, we'll, yeah. Gladly.

You know, like, I'd like to see some things shift, but, uh, it's been a pleasure, Nicole. Yeah, thank you. Having me on here. I know I'm gonna get off here and be like, oh, I should have said, I know, but obviously I, I feel, yeah, I feel super passionate about this of course. And mostly just to demystify, to make it like this can be an accessible thing.

We can't unlock it. We do not need actually other people even, uh, to tell us how to do that. We will know that for ourselves and in our partnership, and we should not be afraid to seek out the resources to humble ourselves. And, and seek how, how can I come in better relating with people in my life, better relating in my sphere instead of feeling entitled, instead of feeling I'm owed a certain acts or pleasure in general, how can I come into it with, from a good place, from a, a reverent, humbled place of, yeah, let me learn.

Mm-hmm. Let me learn even more deeply about my own body and whoever I get the honor right. Of interacting with and to, and to take that seriously. Yeah. To do, I'm a researcher, but like, I think more of us need to be like, do the fucking research. Um, yeah. It's out there.

[01:22:09] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:22:09] Emily: And if it's not out there, we can create it, which is what I'm hoping.

[01:22:14] Nicole: Yes. Yes. Uh, well, I'm gonna take a deep breath with you now. Uh, yeah. Talk about some pleasure. But I, I wanna check in with you, I know we've talked about so much today, but I always like to just make sure there isn't anything that's on your chest that you wanna share with the listeners. Mm-hmm. Otherwise I can guide us towards a closing question as well.

[01:22:41] Emily: Mm. I think, yeah, there is, I think I've already said it, but I, like, I need it to be pointed for cisgender men to this is they call in to work on resiliency, particularly white, cisgender men, around the things that may have been just given to you. And may have been easy enough to this point where there's this bucking this uncomfortable, this like, ugh, I don't wanna have to be a newbie.

I don't wanna have to be on the bottom here. I don't wanna have to relearn some shit that I've always, you know, just kind of been top dog with or like, yeah, been top down learning, you know, like a real call in invitation that I am in relationship with a lot of very powerful cis women, transgender folks who are digging deep and have been, you know, I've gone to.

Countless workshops and things to, you know, conscious touch labs of how can I be in more presence, how can I touch better, how can I receive better? What are my blind spots?

[01:23:57] Nicole: Yeah.

[01:23:58] Emily: And nearly every time, you know, there might be one cisgender man in the space, maybe two. Yeah. You know, um, when it's more touchy, a lot more cisgendered men in the space.

But when it's just verbal or like doing all the emotional work behind it, to really lean in where, you know, and the dating world, I'm seeing this, you know, just like the inability, the unwillingness to be with that learning edge, the discomfort of relating. And to be like, just take that as a sign, as a signal.

The times are changing and you are in a beautiful position. To really educate, to like, to learn. There's spaces that are popping up that are, that are created for you for this very reason. 'cause it is a moment where this is happening. So the easier way is to shut it out and being, no thank you, because you've been able to operate thus far.

And maybe I'm not having to look at some of these trickier things. And again, other ident identities layered on top of this race religion. Many other things are gonna affect all of this of course. But in general, I am seeing this with cisgender men, that you are in a real moment where so much growth can happen.

And I, and I'm witnessing and seeing cisgender women, transgender folks have a lot of grace and space for that. So I think there's focus on this canceling, othering. I. Then there's the retaliating and this feeling like this, the incel vibe, the women are just evil and they're coming for us. And like there's that route and then there's another route where there are actually people in different bodies and lived experiences who are like graciously waiting for you.

[01:25:53] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:25:54] Emily: To update your information and engage in these not easy conversations. Yeah. Like these spaces have been void of you and have been missing you. And so there is a space for you that's already there for you to come in and be a newbie, be a learner, not, not be put in your place, not be, you know, like there's gonna, it's gonna be a learning curve.

You're gonna be humbled. It's gonna be a moment of like, shit, I can't believe, I don't know this, like this late in the game. Whether it has to do with. Gender or sexuality or race, or like there's many realms. Mm-hmm. But they are waiting for you. I can say that as being part of many groups where you, again, usually there's only a few cisgendered men present.

[01:26:42] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:26:42] Emily: And I, and I feel this and I feel it amongst those who are present that we want more of you and we're waiting for you. It's kind of almost impossible to really relate in a deep mm-hmm. Way. Especially when it comes to sexuality. If you want to be able to have access to our bodies, you are gonna have to get, with all these other things I'm mentioning, the times have changed.

I'm not saying that all women are gonna expect you to be going to workshops and doing all the things and whatever, if that's who you relate with, but I think a lot of. I see a lot of the good ones. A lot of us are like, nah, you know, like, you're gonna have to meet my heart, my soul. Um, you're gonna, we're gonna have to be able to laugh about difficult things together.

We're gonna have to get dirty, we're gonna have to get resilient. We're gonna have to have difficult conversations, and that is gonna lead to greater intimacy. Wild sex. Yeah. Fun times. Yeah. All the things that you probably want. Oh, yeah. And the keys to that, the pathway to that is some uncomfortable things.

Some things that you might be choosing to avoid. Just like all the way back to the beginning of, of going to on a dancing journey with grief and then realizing, oh, joy, joy is here, is the pro predominant thing. It's just like that. There's gonna be all these other things to go through, and you might think, oh my God, this is gonna be so hard, so uncomfortable.

I don't wanna face these things. I'm in a body where I don't have to face these things. I'm just gonna choose not to.

[01:28:19] Nicole: Okay,

[01:28:20] Emily: well, you're gonna be missing out on the kind of ecstasy, the kind of full embodied life joy that I'm referring to. Right. And if you want that, we want you to Mm. And there's a place for you in that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:28:40] Nicole: What was coming to mind for me was we love you. Mm-hmm. And we know how much you're hurting. Mm-hmm. And we know it's not your fault, and also you're responsible to change. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Are communities that will do that with you, right? Yes. And if you're the parent caregiver, lover of a young cis boy, that stuff starts early in terms of mm-hmm.

Yeah. You can't have a hug. You don't have to toughen up. Right. That sort of like, pressure starts so young. And so I think all of us have a role in what it means to really shift this culture. Um, yes. But I, I really appreciate that invitation because it, it is a part of the world that we're living in for now, hopefully.

[01:29:31] Emily: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So then there's no, it's a reconceptualizing, of course, we're not used to this again, because we're at least I think, cisgender men maybe being canceled and time's up. Mm-hmm. And this, you know, but again, that's selective listening, um, and not being with the reality that it's complicated for all of us.

And as people realize, wait, some things were done to me that I'm not okay with, and I'm not okay with that anymore. There might be a little fire, some heat behind that. There might be hurt, there might be a desire for vengeance. There might be like, but that's why we practice being with these difficult spaces and resourcing ourselves to be able to be with all of the things that make so much sense.

And yeah, like cisgender men, you're part of the same sys all the systems that we've been referring to the entire time. Like of course, these are the same systems that quote nurtured you and created you into the being who has, oh, I'll go to these emotional spaces, but not these, these are safe, but not this.

I'll do this, but I can't do this. Like, those things are all true. Um, for anybody who's, who's been enculturated in, in the current, at least in the us, um, and again, grace and space. Um, as, as folks in those groups as well, um, while being with the complicated story of, of your bodies often being the perpetrators and certain things, how to be with that and have compassion for yourself and for other cisgender men who have been put in this role or have only known how to do this role.

Yeah. Um, because it's not true. So there, there are, there are beings, uh, in other bodies and other genders who are ready and willing and wanting for that full complicated, um, realization without there needing to be fingers pointed and blame. But with us being able, like you said, to take, um, accountability and responsibility, um, for the now even, even if it was started generations ago, right?

It's like, okay, well how can I show up on. The body that I've been given.

[01:31:48] Nicole: Yeah.

[01:31:48] Emily: And use this, um, for, for power or for love in a good way.

[01:31:53] Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm.

Yes. If it feels good with you, I'll draw us towards our closing question. Yeah. Yeah. So the one question that I ask every guest on the podcast is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:32:19] Emily: I'm like, one thing I know emini, I like, I'm gonna figure out how to say this and then bring in all the things.

It's like, no, no, that's me as a poly person. One, one. I'm like, I can, I can, I can. I want people to know all them.

Um. I get this from my teacher Thea Monyeè I would say that joy is accessible.

[01:32:51] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:32:52] Emily: That it's present. That it's possible that this is what will liberate us. The struggle is not what, um, gets us free, that leaning into Joy does, and that maybe we access that through sexuality. Maybe it's entirely different things, um, for me in that moment.

Yeah. That it was dance so that, you know, and I'm not belittling depression or other reasons that that block us from being able to access joy, but that if we can just hold in the back of our mind, it is, even if we're not living it now, even if it doesn't feel accessible now that it is possible. It is possible for us to find thing that unlocks it for us.

And then I'm a big proponent of like, you know, I film myself dancing. I'm a big proponent of documenting when our, when we do get that point of like finding that,

[01:33:53] Nicole: yeah.

[01:33:53] Emily: And they're like, ah, this is my most joyful.

[01:33:57] Nicole: Mm.

[01:33:57] Emily: Maybe you bake something and then you take a picture of that, but in your smiling face right next to it, you know, to just to remember.

'cause we can get so bogged down with all the state, all the things, terrible things happening in the world, all of it, but that the joy holds true.

[01:34:15] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:34:15] Emily: And we don't have to feel guilty for that. And terrible things are happening. And then our suffering does not mean less suffering for anybody else. Yeah.

[01:34:26] Nicole: Pleasure is possible.

[01:34:27] Emily: It is possible.

[01:34:29] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:34:30] Emily: Yes. Even in complicated. Pain filled bodies. Like there is moments, there is blips, there is a bright spot, there is a curious corner that we peek around. We're like, wait, what?

[01:34:41] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:34:42] Emily: It's, yeah, it's possible.

[01:34:45] Nicole: Absolutely. Hmm. It's been such a joy to have you on the podcast today.

Thank you. My pleasure. I enjoyed it too. Um, where do you wanna plug for people who've connected with you and wanna continue to learn with you and be in community with you? Where would you send them?

[01:35:02] Emily: Yeah. Okay. Um. My, uh, website is heal with pleasure.com. Um, there is like, like if you, I do free consultations, so folks are like, I have no idea what this work is, and I don't know, even if this is applicable to me, you know?

Yeah. Like I have those things on my website of like, these are all the reasons, and all the people, it's essentially everybody. But I do offer free consultations and you know, if you sign up, if you give your email there on that website, then I send, uh, I think it's like a 12 minute, um, embodiment meditation on how to find resource in the body.

And that might be a nice intro to be like, oh, that's what this is. Yeah. So that's a good place to go. Um, my Facebook page is, uh, heal With Pleasure, and my IG page is pleasurable Healing. So those are all good places to find me. And then those places usually have links. I'm on, I have many videos kind of speaking onto things on YouTube.

And that's Emily Roy's somatic sex Educator. Um, is the, is my channel on there, but probably if you find me one place, there'll be a trail. You can find these other places and like on ig I have a new account, whatever, but they, they steady. Study suppress, um, sex education. Of course IG is LinkedIn with Facebook, which is LinkedIn with, you know, WhatsApp, you know, whatever.

It's all the things, whole thing. Yeah. So I'm definitely shadow banned, um, you know, most places, right? Um, but if you do look for me directly, uh, you will find me in my content.

[01:36:41] Nicole: Well, I'll have all of that linked below for the listeners to go directly to. Thank you. And yeah, thank you for joining us, and thank you for all that you're doing for the movement to move us closer to that pleasure revolution.

[01:36:52] Emily: Yay. Yeah, hell yeah.

[01:36:58] Nicole: If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I wanna thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.