205. Relationship Anarchist: Star Stewart

[00:00:00] Nicole: On today's episode, we have Star join us for a relationship anarchy research conversation. Together we talk about learning to see the beauty in all of our relationships. Finding creative ways to reconfigure our connections and deconstructing the intimacy escalator. Hello, dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.

I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of the Pleasure Practice supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.

Dear listener. Every time that I get to share one of these relationship anarchy research conversations, I am so honored. I am so honored that a listener, so many different listeners from around the world have trusted me to come onto the show, to come onto a Zoom call and to really open up about their personal exploration of relationship anarchy.

It is an honor and a joy to have these conversations. Every single time I do, I am transformed and changed. And the fact that I get to share it with you, dear listener, when there is very few resources on relationship anarchy, that I get to do this every couple of weeks and share it because a listener like you has trusted me.

Wow. Wow. So thank you, dear listeners. Thank you. I am so honored to be creating this space with you so, so, so honored. And yeah, this is a continuation of my dissertation, which is published and available on my website if you wanna read it for free. You can read all 200 pages about relationship anarchy, and if you do wanna come on the show, all the contact and links are there for you to submit your answers and to, yeah, come on the show to talk to me about relationship anarchy so that we can keep growing and expanding together.

Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure or sign up for the relationship anarchy research conversations, then you can head on over to modern anarchy podcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And I wanna say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters, you are supporting the long-term sustainability of the podcast.

Keeping this content free and accessible to all people. So thank you. If you wanna join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, then you can head on over to patreon.com/modern Anarchy podcast, also linked in the show notes below. And with that, dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love and let's tune into today's episode.

And so the first question that I ask every guest on the podcast is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?

[00:03:35] Star: Oh, wow.

[00:03:37] Nicole: No pressure.

[00:03:38] Star: Um, what was I gonna say? I'd introduced myself as someone who was actually a political anarchist, even before as a relationship anarchist. Mm-hmm. And like. Just always had an oppositional attitude towards authority and like a questioning attitude towards norms and structures of like power that existed around me and just, I don't know, I wouldn't say a critical lens because it wasn't like I was like out of the uterus with fully developed critical thinking skills or anything like that.

And I still am working on, yeah, sorry, I'm going off on a little bit of a tangent, but that I'm someone who is attracted to the unconventional and towards questioning preconceived notions that society feeds us. And I think getting outta some messy relationships, monogamy was one of those things that I deconstructed I think a couple years ago on a bigger level.

And then I found my way into relationship anarchy because I don't know, polyamory had too much of that vibe of like, I'm catching feelings for everybody. And then I started realizing I was like on the aromantic spectrum, like it demi romantic particularly. Particularly. Um, and so finding that unrestrained ness of like not being in a monogamous escalator relationship while not having the ex expectation that I'm like super hyper romantic or anything like that mm-hmm.

Has been a like, liberating idea for me and just also being able to. Apply my anarchist ideals on an interpersonal level and trying, or at least attempting to, to the best of my ability. Yeah. And sorry that was a whole long thing, but

[00:05:22] Nicole: that's okay. People get excited in this space and they come in, they're like, here I'm, and that's, that's great.

So I appreciate the energy and mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a joy to have you in this space, and I'm excited to get to talk to you and learn more about your practice of relationship anarchy and so

Absolutely.

Yeah. The first question of the research is, what is relationship anarchy?

[00:05:46] Star: Relationship anarchy, I mean, thinking about political anarchy, it's the, it uproot all hierarchy, it uproot all these power structures and, and also like just all these oppressor, oppressed dynamics.

And I think that relationship anarchy does the same thing on an interpersonal level. Mm-hmm. Where you try your best to communicate so that there's not power imbalances, so that there's not. And so, sorry, I'm trying to think this through a little bit more. But basically that interpersonal style that's like very egalitarian, very like, and that values connection regardless of what form that connection takes.

Like if you cherish your family, if you cherish your friends, if you cherish your romantic interests, whoever you cherish your hobby, special interests like that, there's not a hierarchy of value that you place on that. And you don't have that escalator style of like valuing your partner or partners above everything else in your life, romantically or whatnot.

[00:06:46] Nicole: Mm mm-hmm. And yeah,

[00:06:47] Star: that's, that's how I've conceived of it as I've done my research into it and yeah.

[00:06:54] Nicole: Yeah. So I'm curious. How do you practice it? Then we'll hop to the next question because that's a, a great foundation of some of the key points of relationship anarchy, but I guess there's that question of what does that look like in your day-to-day life?

As you're saying, not writing the relationship escalator and these other pieces, what does that look, look

[00:07:15] Star: like? Honestly means like rejecting, like the idea of being, for me personally, I mean, this looks obviously different for everyone and it can be practiced very differently in different social context and different situations and everything.

Just as a caveat, but Right. For me, it means just rejecting the idea of like getting married, settling down with someone in the way of, like, that society expects me to and prioritizing a romantic relationship above every other style of relationship and not like if I were to ever get into one, I'm not, I'm not really planning on getting into one, but it's, it's like, it's simple things like.

Making sure to reach out as much to my friends as I am to like the one person I'm romantically interested in and like my cultivating my family relationships and just like cultivating my relationships with my hobbies and nature, and also my relationship with myself and just like seeing relationships as like a holistic thing rather than like prioritizing and like striving for one type of relationship to overpower all the others.

Mm-hmm. I think I, that's what I would say and just not putting too much investment into established relationships as society, wanting me to especially establish exclusive monogamous relationship, escalator title types of relationships and just cultivating connection. For its own sake, rather than it being like this instrumental thing for some social script that we've been fed.

[00:08:37] Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really hard to do, right? Because Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So much of the society I. Is giving us a, like you said, a script of how to relate, how to create a good life. The trajectory, right. That's that relationship escalator of you date, you date exclusively, you get married.

Mm-hmm. You have kids, you, you know, die together. Mm-hmm. La like what a happy romantic fairytale. Right. And of course, in relationship anarchy, if people want to ride the relationship escalator, there's nothing saying that you can't do that. It's this question of consciousness around it where I'll at least say for myself, for, for so much of my life, I didn't even know that there was an alternative.

[00:09:22] Star: It was this is what you do to having a life. I definitely understand that because like for a lot of my life I sought out affection, but like mm-hmm. The only way I knew for a while of how to throughout like middle school and high school is through conventional relationships. I mean mostly, mostly one relationship in particular that was like on and off, but, and it really set up like kind of a toxic.

Mindset and it just, and it was, it's been nice to take a step back the last couple of years and deconstruct that and just instead of being all consumed by the romantic aspect and the societal scripts and what I'm, and all of that and the relationship escalator, I think it's been nice to just see relationships in a holistic way and seek out affection in a way that is more catered towards me and my preferences.

And not in just like selfish way of like, I'm the only person that matters and my needs or whatever, but like working my relationships into my personal philosophy of like, I remember being very young and being drawn to the idea of free love. Like, I was just like, oh, you can just, like, I've been a little bit slutty for a long time.

Great. I love that. I was like, I have, I've, I've always found appeal and the idea of like having multiple like sexual relationships and just intimate relationships with people and I've been like kind of a touchy person. In general. And so the idea of a relationship that's completely monogamous and exclusive in like in all forms of affection, it just sounds so suffocating to me.

[00:10:53] Nicole: Sure. Right? Like how could you get all of those needs met in one single person?

[00:10:58] Star: Right. That's Yeah, absolutely. And, and it's such bullshit that our society like puts that pressure on us to be that person that's like the absolute anchor for all of a partner's needs. That's just not fair. Like for there to be that expectation.

And I don't, I also think I definitely question like I. Idea. Like if you can have like multiple fulfilling friendships, why can't you have multiple fulfill if that's the path you're going down? Like why can't you have multiple fulfilling romantic relationships or just intimate relationships in general, whether there's an element of romance in that or not.

[00:11:33] Nicole: Right.

[00:11:33] Star: Or, I've definitely been exploring, uh, queer platonic relationships. And I, I do have a queer platonic type person. I don't know if we put a specific label on it, but that's the vibes I get because it, I mean, we do traditionally romantic things like holding hands and cuddling under a blanket. Mm-hmm.

Or like things like that, that are like very, like atypical for a ty, like a typical friendship, but there's no real romantic intention behind it. But then I have another person who I have romantic feelings for it, and I'm like, and then I have a person who's basically like my brother and I value all those relationships, all the same.

And then I have my actual little brother. And so all these relationships, I just recognize all the ways that can en enrich me without it having to be like a hierarchy type thing. I'm prioritizing one relationship over the other in all instances. Sorry, that was like very long-winded. Probably.

[00:12:24] Nicole: Yeah. No need to apologize.

That's all great content for us to explore. I think I. Yeah, it's really tricky. I mean, the concepts of relationship anarchy often in the community, we talk about how this is possible when you look at it as friendship, right? Yeah. We have multiple friends that we're connected to, uh, and in our friendships we see that each of our friends brings out a different side of ourselves.

Right? I, yeah. And we can enjoy that. Wow. Okay. I hang out with this friend and we do these sorts of activities, and I feel this part of me activated. And I also really enjoy this other friend who does a completely different thing. And it's really nice when we can bring all of those friends together and have a great time all together.

Mm-hmm. But so much of our social conditioning is teaching us to look for the one, the one, the one, the one, the one, the one,

[00:13:13] Star: the one is kind of you. I, I call BS on the one.

[00:13:17] Nicole: Well, sure. And I mean,

[00:13:18] Star: on, on any level, like, I mean, not to say, not to be like. Space or aero exclusionary of like, okay, so like if, if there's like exclusivity in the romantic sense or the sexual sense where like you are only attracted romantically or sexually to that one person, then that's a natural organic outgrowth.

But if it's like this imposed social contracting, I think that res of hierarchy and power dynamics and all of that and so yeah. Positive social conditioning,

[00:13:46] Nicole: right? Yeah. 'cause there's definitely folks who practice monogamy or sexual exclusivity and relationship anarchy and I think the key difference there is that it's a conscious choice to enact that and to go through that path.

Absolutely. There's people who do polyamory for years and then choose

[00:14:03] Star: identity. It's not like you're having to rob someone of a part of themselves Sure. To engage in that dynamic because that's how I'd conceptualize it. Because otherwise it feels like power and hierarchy, if that makes sense. Sorry, I didn't mean to like talk over you.

[00:14:16] Nicole: It's okay. Yeah, yeah. No worries. Um, yeah, I think. There's definitely people who practice relationship anarchy and monogamy and enjoy sexual exclusivity and yeah, I think that big difference is that, you know, those folks choose that consciously and are aware that there are other ways of constructing relationships that are possible and are doing that in a way of still bringing equal levels of importance to the other relationships they have in their lives.

I think if I can speak to my own journey, right, like

[00:14:49] Star: to the platonic and familial relationships, rather than like disregarding those for the sake of the romantic or sexual relationship or whatnot.

[00:14:58] Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. Yeah. And if I can speak to my own journey with it, right? It. When I was first coming into this, I had no idea that there was any sort of alternative, right?

And so that is a lot of what we all sit in coming into this world. And then I think the deeper part of my understanding of this as a psychotherapist is the level of unconscious internalization of this, of even someone. Like myself, who has wanted to practice this, has been practicing this for years.

There's still so much internalized conditioning that is so deep within my unconscious. And we recognize that within other systems of oppression, right? Is oh shit, we don't even recognize the way that we are enacting these harmful assumptions, right? And these harmful systems of oppression. And I would say that this, uh, mono normativity, not monogamy, but the mono normativity, the sense that this is the only way of constructing a healthy relationship is deep within all of us.

And so it takes an active process to deconstruct that in our unconscious. And that has been the most fascinating journey of my life that continues every single day. I just get deeper and deeper into the spiral.

[00:16:10] Star: Love that so much. It sounds like a great spiral to go down. Like, I mean, not to get like discount the stress of all of that as well and actively deconstructing toxic cultural things and.

I mean, I definitely understand that growing up in Mormon culture. Oh,

[00:16:26] Nicole: sure, sure, sure, sure. That's a whole path.

[00:16:29] Star: And all the toxicity, homophobia, yeah. Like queer, like queer phobia, patriarchy and very exclusivity oriented norms and kind of authoritarian control that went into that. And mm-hmm. I mean, thankfully I left pretty early on.

I was like 12, and I was like, traumatized. And the religion made the trauma worse. And I was just like, I'm fucking sick of this. Like mm-hmm. And, and I kind of charted my own path, but the, the assumption of like monogamy and mono normativity, like you're talking about just still crept in quite a lot throughout my experience.

I feel so heard when I hear like these relationship anarchist narratives as well, and like I can relate that to them on such a strong level.

[00:17:15] Nicole: Exactly, and I think we need examples of people doing it. So when we hear other relationship anarchists who are going down a similar path, it gives us a example that this is possible.

That there are other people who are thinking about this co-creating these sort of worlds. And we are social beings. And so we look to other people that's just. Basic group psychology, right? We look to other people of how should we be showing up in the world, right? That's why we have different cultural norms, right?

As we exist in a group, and there are things that become normalized and that's how the culture runs. And so we need examples of relationship anarchist to speak to what this looks like in their lived life, right? So that way that we can say, oh, okay, they've climbed that mountain. I can climb that mountain.

And of course, like you were saying at the beginning, everyone's path up the mountain or down the spiral, whatever we wanna say, maybe it's going down deeper, deeper, deeper. Uh, everyone's path is gonna be different. That's part of the beauty of relationship anarchy, right? Is taking the scripts away to create your own world of meaning making.

And so that means that it's all gonna be expansive and different, and each person's gonna have a unique experience of relationship anarchy, which is so exciting.

[00:18:28] Star: Yeah. I love the, I mean, anarchism in just all its facets has always had a DIY ethos. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like DIY, that shit, with your interpersonal relationships, like that's a fucking badass thing to do, like mm-hmm.

To not lean on these social scripts or like try to deconstruct them as much as possible. As much as, like you said, there's this unconscious conditioning,

[00:18:49] Nicole: it's so deep. Like, it's so deep in my unconscious. I have devoted my life to studying this topic, and it still comes up, which is human of course. Right.

But I'm just like, yeah, absolutely. Damn, damn. Another thing. Oh, oh, that, oh shit, okay. I gotta keep learning. I am sitting down, I am being taught. The universe keeps throwing experience after experience in my face. And I say, wow, okay. You know? And so it's, it's very humbling. Um, yeah. That, that is

[00:19:19] Star: life.

[00:19:21] Nicole: Yes.

It's, it's part of the beauty

[00:19:23] Star: of life as well.

[00:19:24] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:19:24] Star: That there's, that the spiral is never ending at the expedition. Like the, the one person that I have

[00:19:32] Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:19:33] Star: Uh, formed romantic feelings for one of the major reasons is that wanderlust.

[00:19:39] Nicole: Mm.

[00:19:39] Star: That just like ever expansive desire to like learn and grow and just Sure.

Absorb different perspectives and to have like deep philosophical conversations. I was spending so much time with them yesterday and like, it's just like this boundless feeling of just like a reservoir of love and just appreciation and just noticing every little detail of who they are. And I can find just a great deal, just as valuable of connections from my purely platonic connections and just like my very egalitarian sense of things where I'm like, if this, if this person brings me value and they, they are here for me in my life and they are supporting me and like whatever value they bring to my life, that's what, how do I put it?

That's inherently fulfilling. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't need to be put in this like, social script of like, and this hierarchy of value just because the nature of. The feeling is different.

[00:20:33] Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think that that brings a level of awareness to your life and your relationships, rather than looking at one person, one person, one person, one person.

And again, this is for people for monogamy or non monogamy, that practice relationship. Mm-hmm. Anarchy. The key piece being that we look at our full community of people, all as loving relationships that see us, that highlight different parts of ourselves that we are committed to. Right. Our community commitment.

And so when you start to see all of your relationships in this lens, because relationship anarchy is about all of your relationships, there starts to be this saturation that comes into your life because you realize, wow, I get love from so many different places. How beautiful. Right. And so it's why,

[00:21:23] Star: like you think about the love I get from my pets, like Yeah,

[00:21:25] Nicole: totally.

I've heard that before on the show. Yes.

[00:21:27] Star: Yesterday. And just like taking time to appreciate those things. And the feeling of belonging I get from like engaging in good music or good art and like that sense of catharsis, even though it's not like a strictly interpersonal connection. Just like having an expansiveness of appreciation of all the value you get from your connection with people, non-human animals, the world.

Mm-hmm.

[00:21:49] Nicole: Like it's just.

[00:21:51] Star: It's so expansive and like you said, maybe this isn't exactly what you said, but like so layered and so you get a depth and expansiveness that you don't get if you just focus all your energies and passion onto one person or multiple partners or whatever. Like I. Because I'm like, that's the other thing with polyamory is like, like there can be hierarchal polyamory where it's like, oh, this is closed off in like, and kind of walled off.

And like, we're focusing our affections in this specific sphere of people and like relationship anarchies, like fuck the borders. Mm. And just like, uh, political anarchies like fuck the borders.

[00:22:27] Nicole: Sure. Yeah. To be able to have more expansive Yeah. Expansive ways of connecting. I appreciate the discussion of pets as well because I think that that's something that I also have seen in some of my conversations with relationship anarchists in the space is, yeah.

What do we mean by the word relationship? I think that in very typical Western understanding, we again mean that in a romantic sense to a one. And so to understand we have really all of us. Again, all of us have multiple relationships. Okay. All of us. Um, not all of us have sex with multiple people, but all of us have multiple relationships.

So that is a given. And then beyond the relationships to just humans. Yeah, it's true. We do have relationships to ourselves, which everything I study in psychology says our sense of self is created by your relationships. So that's a fun HeadSpin that I continue to reflect on. Um, and um, we also have relationships to our pets.

We also have relationships to our ecosystem. Right. Nature, the trees outside, you know? Absolutely. I think it's more,

[00:23:31] Star: it's so essential that we cultivate that as much as possible. 'cause we're facing ecological disaster. This is a whole kind of side tangent, but like Sure. We cultivate that relationship and I like, I have a very animistic understanding of things where I'm like every.

Living then, like deep ecology and like every living thing is valuable and has like some sort of like awareness to it. And like awareness is woven into like every tree, every like piece of moss, like possibly every rock. If I'm expanding that even further, like I just, everything has an energetic trace and a lived experience and just respecting the, the vast intersections of that.

That's why I consider myself like an eco anarchist is like dismantling. The human systems of oppression also requires us to dismantle the oppressive attitude we have towards nature. Anyway, that was a whole side tangent, but yeah, I like going on those.

[00:24:20] Nicole: Well, it's all related, right? It's a relationship to our planet.

To our ecosystem. Mm-hmm. And then the power structures and how those impact that, right? It's all related, our relationship to ourself, right? We could go down a whole rabbit hole of who is the self, these identities that we have and all of that. And I would say that's also related to relationship anarchy.

Any sort of

[00:24:42] Star: totally, like there's no this like atomized self that is like pushed against the world. Like I think that's a very Renee Decart delusion. Mm sure. Yeah. Yeah. Right. The mind body duality. Oh, I mean, not that that's necess, sorry, but just this like idea of like the isolated individual kind of feeding into seism, like we're our own main characters and that like the world is the backdrop.

Instead of realizing how interwoven we are with everything around us and our context and our situation.

[00:25:17] Nicole: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. The field of psychology definitely plays into that by saying this is the individual. The individual, the individual, the individual, and I. A lot of the concept of psychology originally was trying to establish itself as a hard science, right?

Mm-hmm. Like we're legit and you know, based off a very newtonian physics sort of understanding of science of this thing does that thing and that's, it goes here to there, right? Versus an understanding of quantum mechanics, of understanding that, oh hey, like modern sciences, nothing exists alone.

Everything is impacted. Even the observer of the, you know, thing impacts the

[00:25:55] Star: quantum entanglement is bad shit.

[00:25:57] Nicole: Yeah, and I don't even know enough

[00:25:59] Star: say that, like quantum entanglement, like you're saying that if particle cohere is like emulating the behavior of a particle and the Andromeda galaxy, that's fucking crazy.

Like

[00:26:07] Nicole: I can't even speak with any level of expertise to any of it. Truly. I'm humble. Humble.

[00:26:12] Star: I can't really speak with expertise either. But I did like, I like, I like researching into just different theories in general and I, I had a little bit of an obsession with like theoretical physics when I was like a middle schooler, so Sure, sure.

I have like little tidbits.

[00:26:26] Nicole: Totally,

[00:26:27] Star: uh, of knowledge still are there.

[00:26:29] Nicole: Totally. Totally. Yeah. And so I think it's so important for all of us, and particularly the field of psychology, to update our understanding of the self, to understand that the self is in relation, there is just no individual self, just as much as there is no individual atom just acting on its own.

Right. Like it's impacted by the environment constantly. And so our sense of self is always being impacted by who we are relating to and what we're relating to, right. Our environment. If you live in a food desert, your understanding of food and life and wellbeing is very different, right? These are all pieces, it's a systems level of understanding that'll impact our sense of self.

And so I hope that relationship anarchy as a movement continues to reflect on that. Absolutely. And hence the, the fact that it is a never ending exploration of the ways that systems are impacting us and our relationships. Mm-hmm. All of us will go to our graves. Still unpacking that and going, damn, there was more to learn, you know?

[00:27:28] Star: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And there's just like such limited time as well. And yeah, so trying to pack in all that deconstruction and all that reconstruction and like, I mean, it's a beautiful thing. It's a. Beautiful thing to strive to, but we're never gonna perfect it, obviously. Mm-hmm.

[00:27:43] Nicole: Hence the word practice. I really like to say practicing relationship anarchy.

It's something that I do and get deeper in. Right. It's not, uh, a final destination that I'm going to be hitting perfectly. It's, it's a truly a practice. And many of the days, um, I will fail in that practice or what, well, what does even failure mean? So many of the days I will be humbled and on my face, you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm. By the practice and still expanding into it. But yeah. I'm thinking about the next research question, which is why do you practice relationship anarchy? Why is this important to you?

[00:28:17] Star: Ever since I was young, I've hated being constrained. Mm-hmm. I've hated Sure, feeling like I don't have agency, like I don't have options, like this is the thing I have to do.

Mm-hmm. So I've, I've always, to some extent, bucked against social expectations. I mean, as part of being neurodivergent as well. Mm-hmm.

I would guess, and always just very much oriented towards questioning things and questioning. Assumptions that I've had and that other people have had. And once I've had experiences with some kind of escalator type exclusivity type relationships, I just decided that it wasn't for me, like all the drama that surrounded and like the whole idea of breaking up was really just a really emotional, it's such an emotional toll and like, it's such an expected emotional toll.

But when I was like watching videos about like, uh, deescalation of relationships rather than like breaking up and tearing apart, and I was like, oh, because you don't have these hierarchies of value, you can like, okay, just because we are not clicking in a romantic or sexual way doesn't mean that any sort of relationship that we have has to go in the bin.

Like, you know? Mm-hmm.

[00:29:25] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:25] Star: So just having the autonomy to connect with the breadth and depth that I want without being defined by social scripts is just such a liberating idea for me. And I'm. I, I just love the freedom that I have that I can and the freedom I, I mentioned that I was doing a romantic, but I also have like fluidity in where I am on the aromantic spectrum.

So sometime there's been times where I've been like romance repost and different things, and so having the fluidity of being like, okay, I'm, I don't have these established romantic relationships and these established like escalator expectations so I can simply just exist with what my identity is and like communicate that with the people that I'm with if it comes up and is relevant and they can communicate their own fluidity with me and we can kind of negotiate and what was the term in like the kind of manifesto?

Customize your commitments.

[00:30:16] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:16] Star: To me, that doesn't mean like exclusivity as much in my context, but just like customizing the way that the relationship is gonna work, how much intimacy the relationship is gonna include at a given time. Mm-hmm. I just love that freedom. I love that autonomy. I love the creativity that is involved in it and like the expansive thinking.

Mm-hmm. And there just, mm-hmm. There's so much I love about the philosophy and also because I'm a political anarchist, like in the sense that I wanna abolish all H, all these hierarchies of value that we have that are unhealthy for our society and just want to like liberate. Each individual to like live the most fulfilling life that they can, whether they're they're human or not as well.

I definitely think that relationship anarchy helps me ground myself in that, in, in those values on an everyday level.

[00:31:01] Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Getting to apply them into your relationships and, yeah. I, it's so important to be able to construct relationships that bring you joy, that bring the people you're relating to joy.

And what I've found in my research is that that requires a deep embrace of change. Because if we really wanna be in community connection with folks, and we don't want to have a breakup, we wanna be able, I don't even use the word deescalate, because that suggests that going back down there is another escalator that should up.

Okay. Right. So I usually say reconfigure right? Is okay, we're gonna reconfigure

better term. Yeah, totally.

[00:31:40] Star: Right. So let's reconfigure the way we're relating. Let's reconfigure the way you're, we are relating and that means that. Gosh, that's an ongoing conversation. Okay. For the rest of my life. The goal has like, not just a romantic relationships, but like what role has reconfiguration played in your life to ask you a question?

[00:31:56] Nicole: Oh, man.

[00:31:59] Star: Like, just, just like maybe a single example or something. I don't like, I don't wanna like demand like you tell your whole life story, but like,

[00:32:04] Nicole: yeah.

[00:32:05] Star: For for sure. For sure. Gimme an example of like a major reconfiguration in your life that has like ended in a kind of fulfillment and Yeah.

[00:32:14] Nicole: Yeah. So many of 'em, right?

I, I'm thinking about. Yeah, it's just really complex. I guess when I think about reconfiguration in my own life with the people that I've related to, it has required such a level of communication and insight that I have never experienced in my life, and I'm still navigating, right? Because I'll be in a relationship with someone and I can notice that something feels off.

There is something going on where it doesn't feel good, and there is a part of me who wants to go, fuck this shit, I'm out. Oh yeah, goodbye. Right? You know, goodbye. I don't wanna be a part of this storm anymore. Mm-hmm. And so what does it mean to take a deep breath? To notice that feeling, to know that I am not my thoughts, and then actually try and sit and be like, okay, so what is not working here?

Maybe we no longer want to have sex anymore because we are no longer sexually compatible, but gosh, I love you so much. I love snuggling with you. I love seeing you all the time. And so we're gonna take this part of our relationship. Out and off the table. And then a year later, maybe it comes back on actually.

Mm-hmm. And it feels good again because we have changed how we look at our romantic relationship and sexual dynamic has changed. And so that feels good. But I've also had relationships. Um, I, I'm a rock climber. I'm in a rock climbing community. Mm-hmm. There, okay, let's be real. A queer rock climbing relationship.

Anarchy community gets a little small. And so, you know, like everyone knows

everybody. We all know who each other is. We are.

[00:33:42] Star: They're like a little lesbian commune.

[00:33:43] Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, not lesbian.

[00:33:45] Star: I didn't mean to be like very hyper specific in the label, but like a queer, yeah, I dunno. Whatever. I mean,

[00:33:51] Nicole: we, right, we don't all live together, but there's only so many rock climbing gyms in Chicago.

You know what I mean? And so we all kind of know who each other is. And so there is a level of relating here that is otherworldly for me. Like I have, it is so cool, but it's so hard. Like it is so incredibly difficult because unlike in my previous dynamics where if I had a breakup, it was like, cool, I'll never see you again.

Goodbye. These are people that I see every single week because there are only so many gyms to climb at in Chicago.

[00:34:19] Star: And so reconfiguration becomes not just like a matter of ideals, but a matter of necessity.

[00:34:23] Nicole: Yes. And it is hard. It is hard. I have cried, you know what I mean? Like, and so I am going through that actively of Oh, okay.

I. This is the person that you were dishonest with me about, and I still see you and that person. Awesome. Every single week. Yeah. Do you know how much that hurts? And do you know how much I've had to work through with that person? With the person who lied to me? Mm-hmm. With the other people. And then everybody is, you know, it's, it's almost like a fishbowl.

We're all kind of related. We all kind of watch each other.

[00:34:53] Star: Um, so yeah, just don't be Beta fish.

[00:34:56] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. We don't fight. We don't fight. Um, so one of the relationships I was in, um, for about a year, we have reconfigured to not be relating anymore because of that dynamic, but are still like, uh, more spacious friends.

And I think, um, from some of my other people in my world, I think what becomes really tricky is when you are trying to reconfigure with someone who has trauma, um mm-hmm. Or difficulty relating and can make that extremely painful, extremely difficult. And of course we wanna be healing in community, but what happens when one of those community members repeatedly harms you and the boundaries you have to take and all that.

It's, we have these lofty goals of staying in connection. I wanna be in connection, I wanna be committed. My goal is to not have any more breakups in my entire life. Like I only wanna have reconfigurations. But that lofty goal

[00:35:43] Star: No, that is, that is quite the goal. I, I, I know that's, that's such, that's a great aspiration, honestly.

[00:35:49] Nicole: But it requires. Not just me to have that, it requires the person that I'm relating to to have that too because mm-hmm. We have to look at each other and be like, Hey, no matter what happens, if we get really frustrated with each other, we will figure out whatever it is that is bothering us. Whether that means we need more space, we need to take off this way of relating, we need a change.

Like, Hey, we're committed to that. Okay, I'm looking at you. Mm-hmm. We're committed. Right? We're committed.

[00:36:11] Star: And that's like especially comforting. It's a thing too. Yeah. It's so you're both committed, I mean, yeah. It. To commit to still cultivating that connection because you find that connection inherently valuable no matter what form it takes.

[00:36:28] Nicole: Uhhuh.

[00:36:28] Star: Like that's the thing with me and the person that I've been kind of on and off romantically interested in, we've been such dear friends and we've only gotten closer since the reconfiguration. It's not even a breakup. Right. I, I'm like, I, I have such an a, a heteronormative vocabulary that when I describe it to my friends, I've described it as like a breakup and it's, it's just, it's kind of breaking through to me now.

I'm like, oh, I've, I've had this reconfiguration, not even the deescalation, because if I'm being honest, we've had moments of intimacy that have Right. Transcended like anything that was in even the context of the relationship right before like a specific romantic, scripted relationship.

[00:37:06] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:07] Star: We've uncovered new depths about each other and just Right.

Great conversations. And we've just remained dear friends for two. Yeah. Yeah. Almost two and a half years. Amazing. And it's, it's been really wonderful and

[00:37:20] Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:37:21] Star: And I just am overjoyed no matter what, whether with the emotions more platonic or romantic or whatnot.

[00:37:27] Nicole: Right.

[00:37:28] Star: In just whatever form that connection is taken and all the different ways we can derive value from each other.

[00:37:34] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:35] Star: And I've also like, just learned to appreciate, like, rather than being like, oh, I'm gonna orient myself around this person because there's this particular kind of feeling, I'm like, oh, I really, really appreciate the queer platonic feeling, even though I might have the, as many profound philosophical conversations as I have with this other person.

Like, I can watch Heart Stopper and just see the reaction and it's really sweet and wholesome. Mm-hmm. And they can, they can introduce me to this music that I find really comforting or the, these different things like you're saying, like there's these different value points that you find. Mm-hmm.

[00:38:05] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:38:05] Star: The different connections.

[00:38:07] Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:38:08] Star: And like not being in a Capital R relationship where you're an item has given me that freedom in a lot of ways to kind of explore the different ways of connection. I mean, they're fluid on the polyamory, non-monogamy front, so they would be definitely open to, if we were to ever be in a type of relationship, to have that be kind of fluid and have some non-monogamous aspects in there and

[00:38:32] Nicole: mm-hmm.

[00:38:33] Star: But I'm just really grateful for the expansiveness of my connections and

[00:38:36] Nicole: Totally,

[00:38:37] Star: yeah. And just that I can have so much value in my life from my friendships. Mm. And family and pets and all of that.

[00:38:45] Nicole: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I think that given what we were talking about earlier, the levels of. Deep, deep, deep unconscious conditioning of what it means to be in, like you said, a capital R relationship.

Right. There is a lot that people will assume this is how you're supposed to be in a relationship. Mm-hmm. This is what you're supposed to do in relationship. This is how you're supposed to show up in relationship. And so like you were sharing with yours, you know, you've been able to have more intimacy when you took off that capital R.

Like yeah. Mm-hmm. I've had that with someone specifically who, when we took off the word R relationship mm-hmm. You know, capital R relationship, they started actually telling me how they feel and I said, why couldn't you have told me this? And they're like, well, we were in a relationship. I just didn't really

[00:39:34] Star: feel like it was like, it was such an intimidating, it's such an intimidating thing to like, to like, shit, present your society, especially as an item because you can be like an item in your own time.

Like, like, I mean like I, I've at least had the experience with this particular person that I can just like. I can talk with them about, just about anything and just be very emotionally vulnerable with them and be like, Hey, yeah, we can both be like, Hey, yeah, we're into these people. And Yeah, in like a sexual way or in their case, sometimes a more romantic way.

Like I've only, I've only had interest in, uh, them for the last couple years, which is why I don't really identify as polyamorous, because I'm like, Amory is very romance coded and very, like, I, I don't know if I'll form like romantic feelings like this for the rest of my life. Like, but there's such a spectrum of like different emotions and like relationship anarchy kind of frees me from the expectation of like, oh, I'm forming multiple connections and multiple capital R relationships because I'm like, I don't want, I don't actually want more capital R relationships.

I want more expansiveness of what a relationship can mean. Right,

[00:40:34] Nicole: right. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so I think that that is a learning process as much as it is for you, for me and all the people that we're relating to. Mm-hmm. And so having that compassion as we go through it with folks, because we will certainly run into pieces of that where we didn't even realize we had a quote unquote, expectation of what it means to be in a capital R relationship or a lowercase r right.

The other way. And so we're kind of already

[00:41:01] Star: doesn't mean to be in a lower What, what was, sorry, I, I know what a capital R, but like what, what is a lowercase r in your mind? I'm just,

[00:41:06] Nicole: I, I have never. I don't think I've heard anybody use that term, but I'm making it up on the spot. 'cause if capital R means romantic e you are the one.

Mm-hmm. I guess lowercase r means to actually co-create, you know,

[00:41:19] Star: what you're doing with that person, which is hey, so lower, so lowercase R is kind of relationship anarchy esque

[00:41:25] Nicole: maybe, I don't know, whatever we want it to mean for ourselves because yeah, capital R means like, you're in the relationship.

'cause people use that language like, oh, I have a relationship that I'm, you know, like, oh, I'm in a relationship. I'm like, well, duh. Like don't you, you, you can't, you like, of course you are. When you were a baby, you were raised by folks, folks

[00:41:42] Star: connect with people. You can't avoid being a Right, right. 'cause you, you kind of deprogrammed the amount of normativity quite a bit more than most people have.

[00:41:50] Nicole: Right.

[00:41:50] Star: You literally have a PhD thesis on relationship anarchy, believe, like, you know, your stuff. I mean, like everyone's in a constant process, but you know your shit.

[00:41:58] Nicole: Sure. Exactly. So then I have to kind of slow down sometimes because like some people are still plugged into the matrix Whole tangent. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Totally. Totally. Which I mean, like,

[00:42:09] Star: yeah, I definitely get that with like, like special interests that I burn for. I know that like with my specific political philosophies or like philosophical outlooks in general, like metaphysically or whatever, I will go off on whole tangents that no one asks for.

[00:42:22] Nicole: For sure.

For sure. I feel that. I feel that, and these days the majority of people that are orbiting pretty close to me are, are all relationship anarchists

because I need, I need people who understand what I'm doing otherwise. I am just, what am I? You know, what am I doing? You know, like I gotta get someone who looks at me and says, yes, Nicole, I understand what you're saying and I see your vision.

Mm-hmm. And I wanna do it with you. And that's been the hottest thing in the entire world.

[00:42:46] Star: Oh hell yeah. Like for sure.

This is like the hottest thing in the entire world when someone just show shares your, like core values to such a level of depth. Yeah. And like, yep. And to like, you can have like deep, very expansive conversations about your values and your philosophical outlook and just like, and really get to know like the, the whole universe inside each other, like that is such a sexy thing.

[00:43:09] Nicole: Totally, totally, totally. So we're already hitting on the next question, which is, how does relationship anarchy impact your practice of intimacy? To mirror a little bit of what you were just saying. Mm-hmm. Uh, I'm hearing the ways that your practice of relationship anarchy is really about deconstructing relationship expectations and then co-creating what feels good for the two of you.

And so when you find someone who has that same sort of vision, when you find someone who has that same sort of vision, you can feel the power of that intimacy, the sameness with it. And so it really sparks that for you. But are there other ways that you feel like relationship anarchy impacts your practice of intimacy?

[00:43:51] Star: Yeah. Um, I, I'm gonna need to collect my thoughts a little bit for this. Sure. But I'm gonna like just pause for a little bit. Mm-hmm. Because I really want to get the right delivery.

[00:44:01] Nicole: Totally. Take your time.

[00:44:07] Star: I think, I mean, deconstructing also my romantic orientation has been interesting. Mm-hmm. 'cause I've, I've realized how much I crave intimacy, but that hasn't been really as much related to the romantic scripts that I've been handed down.

[00:44:21] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:22] Star: As I would've thought like a couple years ago, I, or even past that, probably I would've considered myself like a very romantic person and like just a very, like, very oriented towards relationships and very oriented and like, but then I started deconstructing.

I'm like, I wasn't actually, I wasn't actually in it for the, like the, the feeling of being an item or being like in this monogamous exclusive relationship escalator type dynamic. It was more for the intimacy in and for itself. And I've even before I like identified with the label, like relationship anarchist or whatever, I found like moments of intimacy with like friends or friends with benefits mm-hmm.

Or what platonic whatever, whatever you wanna call it at a given moment, like has been just as good, if not better than it's been in the context of relationship. This was even before I like started questioning my romantic orientation and like, huh, I don't actually wanna be in a relationship with this person just because some people are saying I should, like, huh.

I just enjoy this how it is. I kind of enjoy just having sex and having that moment of intimacy without having it be this like script and this like huge expectation. Sorry, I live in a house with, uh, people, so I'm just, hopefully you can hear me and hopefully this picks up.

Yeah. Okay. It's, but um, but it's.

Sorry, I'm just trying to clarify my thought.

[00:45:50] Nicole: It's okay. Yeah, take your, take a deep breath.

[00:45:52] Star: Also, also on the other end, because I, I'm, I'm allosexual despite like being demi romantic, I'm definitely allosexual and I definitely experience like sexual attraction to a high degree and like sometimes even to the point of like hypersexuality.

And so I am my queer, like the person that I'm queer platonic with, I mean, one of them is like completely ace and also, and also interestingly enough, like a very kind of leaning towards a hyper romantic end of the spectrum. And I, like, there's someone I met in college that I didn't really expect I'd form really much of anything with, but I had my dog pass away and I guess there's sometimes a silver lining to everything.

Um, but I really reached out to them and like I was like, Hey, can I cuddle you? Like I, sorry if this is a weird request. And they're like, yeah, actually I'd be into that. And, and so we just kind of been cuddle buddies. Uh. A lot and just like watch shows together and held hands and just had this, I've like learned to have an appreciation of just intimacy and affection that hasn't contained a romantic or sexual element to it.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And like deconditioning my mind from the very like, allosexual allo romantic view of like relationship escalator stuff that has expectation of sex and sexual exclusivity and all these different things. And just decide, no, I'm going to construct my relationships how I want. And even though the, this doesn't seem at base level to be compatible, like, I'm like, it actually works for both of us.

Mm-hmm. And like, if they decide to get in a relationship with someone, like in a more romantic, exclusive way, that's fine. And like we can reconfigure like we're talking about. Mm-hmm. And same thing with like the friend that I've had like on and off romantic feelings for and like who I, I, who I feel like a deep dear sense of friendship with.

Just the connection that exists there. Like it doesn't, they have kind of a relationship anarchist. They specifically have a like very relationship anarchist kind of understanding of things that they're not gonna devalue their other relationships just because they're in a romantic relationship, which makes me like less fearful about it.

I've realized that what I'm fearful about hasn't actually been around the romantic relationship itself, but like, will they still care about me? Will they still value me, type of thing. Mm-hmm. Because, 'cause it's kind of this like all or nothing mindset in our society. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That, and just learning about relationship anarchy has just liberated me from that, liberated my relationships from that for a large degree and giving me a more expansive approach to intimacy.

[00:48:24] Nicole: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. My OG listeners of the podcast will know that I talk about having a, uh, post-it wall behind my screen that I'm talking to you right now. And so one of the post-it notes that I have up there is, there's not just a relationship escalator, there's also an intimacy escalator and a physical touch escalator, right?

Mm-hmm. And so, so many of us will pair snuggling, holding hands as being a escalator. That means you're working towards a sexual relationship, right? Mm-hmm. Wow.

[00:48:55] Star: Or romantic relationship with which I like. It's off-putting for me because I'm like, Hey. Yeah. Just because I wanna cuddle you doesn't mean I want like, an exclusive romantic relationship or really any type of romantic relationship with you.

Like I'm, I'm actually into the idea of platonic kissing, which is kind of an unpopular opinion.

[00:49:11] Nicole: Sure, sure, sure, sure. I hear what you're saying. Right. And so the more that we can unpack that, the more love and, and intimacy and social touch needs, we can get satisfied. Mm-hmm. But it takes a lot of deconstruction for all of us, right?

Because I know in past versions of my consciousness, if I was snuggling with someone, I would probably be in my head worried that it was gonna go to a next step. And I wasn't sure if I wanted to have sex. And I don't know if I could have communicated that and la la la la la I would've been spinning in my head.

And I know that, right? I know my past version of myself who didn't have as much embodiment with my, like, ability to know my boundaries and how I would work with my body. And sort of the ability now to have more insight with that and be able to actually name, uh, you know, there's people I've kissed and then I only wanna kiss.

I actually don't wanna go any further mm-hmm. Than that. And even that take takes a lot of insight to say, wow, this feels good and I'm not gonna let it escalate to more. 'cause that actually doesn't feel in alignment. That's a lot of communication skills. Mm-hmm. For your average human.

[00:50:13] Star: Yeah. It's like a lot of like, oh, what, what do I actually want?

Like Right. Sometimes I. Be like really slutty and just like mm-hmm.

Really that way. And then I had this happen the other day, like, I think it was like Monday or something. Uh, I was at this party and I was like flirting with a few different people, like saying we should, we should have like joking, we should have like a foursome, more like these different things.

And like, and like then I was like, oh wait, this person has a, a dick. I don't know if I actually wanna like. Deal with that right now, because I have trauma associated with that and

[00:50:51] Nicole: Sure.

[00:50:51] Star: And I'm like, and I'm like, maybe I could enjoy kissing them or just doing these different things, but I'm like, it would take a lot for me to like develop, uh, to develop that level of intimacy with someone with that anatomy because of certain stuff from my past.

[00:51:05] Nicole: Totally. Totally. Totally. And so this is almost the exact opposite of the cultural expectation that, oh, we just had sex, we just flowed into it. I put that in air quotes. Mm-hmm. Right. The, the, if you talk about it, makes it not sexy anymore. Right. So, so much of our cultural scripts, I know, I know. It's ous, it's utterly ridiculous.

And I'll spend the rest of my life trying to help all Yeah. Have more communication.

[00:51:33] Star: I'm like, don't sound nearly as if, like, I mean, I mean, if I'm really needing that like, release maybe, but like at the same time I'm like, I, I would rather have like some sort of connection beyond just. I don't know. I mean, it's something I'm not completely coasted off to, but it's also not my preference.

[00:51:52] Nicole: Sure. Yeah. And I, so I think the biggest piece of it all being what you're speaking to is the ability to name where your own boundaries, your own pleasure and desire ends and begins. And for most of us, we live in this culture where it is assumed that you just flow into intimacy and it's not something that you talk about.

Mm-hmm. For many people it's zero to 100. It's like so stupid too.

[00:52:13] Star: Like why, why wouldn't you talk about like the boundaries and like

[00:52:17] Nicole: Well, and

[00:52:18] Star: what your priorities are and like what you're looking for, like, and it's called, I'm like purity culture. Oh

[00:52:26] Nicole: yeah. I mean, It's called purity culture,

[00:52:29] Star: like when I was thinking about like friends with benefits, like in situations.

And like purity culture has like a very specific idea of like, it's tied to marriage, it's tied to, tied to all these religious puritanical, like sexual repression things. But then thinking of it in the context of like a meta normativity, that's kind of mind blowing and like how purity culture forms. Like, it's like this, I.

Vicious cycle thing in our collective, I guess, imagination. Yeah.

[00:52:54] Nicole: Yeah. You know, where abuse of power thrives in the dark. And so when we have a culture that says purity and you're not supposed to talk about sexuality because this is something that happens behind closed doors, it is all connected. So when you can't be able to talk to your family, you know, when you can't be able to talk to people in your life about your sexual dynamics because that's not pure and that's forbidden and wrong and taboo.

That's where abuses of power exist. And that's why we all don't have the fucking language because we're able to like religious, but they, sorry, can I finish? Is it okay? I'm so sorry. It's okay. Um, yeah, when we don't have that language, we're sorry. It's so hard to remember. Okay. Um,

[00:53:37] Star: I'm so sorry.

[00:53:38] Nicole: No, it's okay.

I know it's passionate. We get excited. Um mm-hmm. Yeah. When, um, when we're not able to communicate with other people, we literally don't have the language. We form language in community, and so we have to practice communicating about these dynamics to be able to actually get the language. It's like the emotion wheel in therapy, right?

And so when you're with a therapist and they start having you point out the emotions and communicating it, it creates the language. And so because of purity culture, we're so closed lipped about anything sexually. So we don't have the skills because it's literally a language that we have not developed for most of us.

[00:54:14] Star: Yeah. Yeah. That's that's absolutely true. I remember like being sexually abused when I was younger and being groomed, I was like so afraid that like. My parents would see me as like some sort of adulterer or like something, and then my grandma really fed into that and it was this whole thing of like, and the religion really put the salt in the wounds of like the rape that I experienced and like all the trauma of that.

And I just, that's part of the reason why it was like so, so necessary for me to just like cut that off as soon as I could. That like toxic religious culture, like the victim blaming and the queer phobia as I was like discovering that I was like bisexual, um, at that time.

[00:54:54] Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Compounding traumas is what I'm hearing, right?

Compounding traumas. Yeah.

[00:54:59] Star: Compounding traumas. Yeah. That's, that's great term for it. And yeah, and so, and I definitely felt the need to like, I don't know, and it was just, it was, it just added a whole extra layer and just like persecution for coming out as bisexual. And it was, it was, it was the like. That year, like sixth grade or so was absolutely how, yeah.

Middle school is already bad enough without it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Not to completely trauma dump, but just

[00:55:28] Nicole: Sure, sure. I mean, it's, it's all related, right? We're talking about the various traumas in the systems of oppression that are impacting our ability to practice intimacy. It's all related. And so I'm, I'm curious if there's anything that you would wanna say to your younger self in this moment, given the wisdom, the enlightenment, the insight that you have now, is there anything that you'd wanna say to that younger self?

[00:55:51] Star: That's a really beautiful question. I'm just gonna try to articulate that.

[00:55:54] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:55:56] Star: I'd say that you'll be able to find your freedom. You'll be able to find people who affirm you for exactly who you are, rather than having this very conditional love and that you'll find love that's free of agendas. Mm-hmm.

And that. Is organic and that really makes you happy. And really makes you fulfilled. Yeah. And this trauma doesn't define the whole course of your life. Like this hellish period you're going through now isn't the defining future of your existence and that there's so much joy that you're gonna have and so much delight in the all the connections you're gonna form.

And you're gonna have a couple of years where you feel fucking lonely and like you feel you don't have anyone in your corner. But as life goes on, you'll find more and more people and more way and more ways to expand relationships. And you'll find that sexual intimacy goes so far beyond the abuse that you've experienced and the repression that your culture tells you.

Sexual intimacy outside of marriage or whatnot is mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:57:10] Nicole: Yeah. Such wise, loving, kind words to share. Right. I hope all of us, me, the listeners can feel that in their hearts, right? That, that optimism, that hope, the, the ability to know that it does get better. Right. And so I appreciate you. Yeah, it's

[00:57:27] Star: definitely difficult, like looking forward in the future, being in the present is just the skill that I've been trying to cultivate, especially the last few days because this election,

[00:57:39] Nicole: right?

Yeah. It's a lot to practice presence. It's, that's a, that's a never ending practice. Yes.

[00:57:44] Star: Yeah, absolutely. And just the dread I experience and how I feel like what I've developed, like I feel like I have so much to lose, but like then I've just been trying to go on the other side of that and being grateful for the fact that I have so much in my life that like, yeah, I'm worrying of losing, like mm-hmm.

That optimistic outlook of like. Yeah. There's so much in my life that I can attune to right now. Yeah. Rather than sitting in that place of dread forever.

[00:58:09] Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. So gratitude for what you have and the here and the now. And I wanna, you know, no good segue to the next question then, which is kind of the opposite.

Uh, what are the difficulties of relationship anarchy? We'll get to the joys and the gratitude, but holding a little bit of space right now. What are some of the difficulties that you've experienced with relationship anarchy?

[00:58:32] Star: Mostly, a lot of it is trying to explain it.

[00:58:36] Nicole: Mm

[00:58:37] Star: sure. To other people trying to explain it to people and like using the wrong terms.

Like I was, I was explaining it to a philosophy club group, and I was like, no boundaries between the this type of relationship or this type of relationship where they're like, no boundaries. And they're like, wrong, like red flags in them. They're like, no boundaries in the relationships. And I'm like, no, no, that's not what I meant.

I mean like, no hierarchies of value and like, and then just like having the response of like. Well that sounds impractical. Like, I don't know, like just like I do with like all my political philosophies and just like,

[00:59:08] Nicole: yeah,

[00:59:09] Star: feeling like I'm this pipe dreamer about Sure. Connection based on the societal response.

Like, I mean, not even like the societal response, but just like people personally interact I'm interacting with and like some people just like, I dunno, my dad has been kind of, oh we'll see on the marriage and children front. Even though I've made it like very clear, especially with children that I'm like, no, I don't want this.

I don't want this as a part of my life. Ever since I was like very young, I was like, I don't want this. This is not something I want as a part of my life. This is not something that fits with my internal value system. And then him being just kind of like, just people being kind of dismissive and people in society, like going out of its way to like.

Push this tyrannical nuclear family model and just like persecuting anyone who deviates from that, and especially people who are queer, like trans and all of that, and like have relationships that defy the norms of the fucking 1950s. Yeah.

[01:00:05] Nicole: Yeah.

Totally. Totally. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I will share that. My research, that was one of the main answers to this question is the most difficult piece is feeling like an alien.

Feeling like no one understands what the hell I'm talking about when I say relationship anarchy. And so this feeling of isolation, which is what contributes to mental health distress, right? And mental health disorders is feeling like you're misunderstood. Feeling like there's nobody that you can talk to that gets it, which is part of why, and this interview

[01:00:37] Star: is so good for my mental health because like there's been someone practicing this for like four years who has a PhD emphasis on it, and it is like.

It just constantly introspecting and developing and like, and it is giving me new language too, like reconfiguration rather than deescalation and just like Sure. Better terminology and better ways of expansive understanding. And so thank you for that.

[01:00:58] Nicole: Of course, of course. Stay tuned. I'm just start getting started, right?

I'm just getting, oh yeah. I'm gonna listen to every podcast

[01:01:03] Star: episode, like during this like winter break. I'm going to like go crazy with that shit.

[01:01:08] Nicole: Great. I'm so excited for you to dive in. I hope you have a lot, it's

[01:01:11] Star: interest in mind and is just like something I'm really wanting to cultivate within myself and I'm like really interested because like I've, I've had like a special interest in like psychedelics and like expansion consciousness, mindfulness, and just all the intersections of spirituality and being present and being interconnected with the world.

Mm-hmm. And all the philosophies around that. Like, it's just, just like, and then like connecting that with the intimacy and connection, which is just like some of the most valuable stuff in my life. And also just like self-determination. I'm like, that is my. Cup of tea right there.

[01:01:40] Nicole: Totally. And my family is Mormon, so I'm sure you'll enjoy going down my whole healing arc of the last, you know, many years of this podcast.

You can just watch me heal and expand and heal and expand, you know, through these conversations. So I'm sure you'll enjoy them, and I'm happy to have this space for you. I'm happy to have the space for myself. It feels good. And for all the listeners who really tune into these episodes to see an example of relationship anarchy,

[01:02:05] Star: many of them have experienced horrible things from purity culture as well.

[01:02:09] Nicole: Yeah. That's a whole, that's a whole part of my journey. Like about a year ago. I think that was one of the main topics I was exploring. I've explored less as I've moved, you know, I, you're let you move towards more.

[01:02:19] Star: I, I, unfortunately, I haven't had as much exposure as I'd like to before this interview, but what are the themes you're currently focusing on and like in your own introspection and your, your podcast and all of that?

[01:02:30] Nicole: Yeah, I think I want to work towards an embodied liberation. Like I said earlier, there's gonna be so many different paths to that. And so there's not one way, but I want people to be in their bodies. I want people to feel pleasure, and I want people to be free. And I know that freedom's a complex, you know, given everything we've talked about with the, so systems of oppression.

[01:02:55] Star: Yes. The systems of oppression, the social conditioning, the ways that that goes into our unconscious. I want to be able to have conversations about pleasure, about embodiment, whether that's sex, drugs, intimacy, relationships, right? Mm-hmm. All of that's that we can make an informed. Decision. Right. And so I hope that these conversations will continue to unfold in that space of pleasure and expansion.

And so, yeah, it's all happening. How

is, how is like mind altering? Not even just drugs, but it can include that as well. Like, I mean like drugs and like the sense of like psychedelics and whatnot. Mm-hmm. And like spiritually enhancing substances. Like how has that have intersected with your like relationship anarchy practice?

Like, I, I know I'll discover a lot of that. Through your podcast, but I'm just like very eager to know.

[01:03:40] Nicole: Totally.

[01:03:40] Star: Yeah. Just, just a quick

[01:03:42] Nicole: Totally. Yeah. I mean, I think about specifically within American culture, uh, the war on drugs and against people of color spec specifically. Right. So I think about the ways that these substances and power structures, right?

And so, uh, the ways that, that impacts all of our access to it, the way that that impacts all of our understanding of drugs is something that's negative. Mm-hmm. And shame-based that you should not do, let alone the fact that we prescribe drugs all the fucking time. And alcohol is a drug.

[01:04:12] Star: We have an opioid act epidemic and like, and weeds like either, I mean, here in Utah it's like heavily regulated.

Like you can have medical marijuana, like under very specific conditions. Oh,

[01:04:23] Nicole: interesting.

[01:04:23] Star: But like. Yeah. But like alcohol, it's just Right. Yeah. You can, you're over 21, you have an id, you can get alcohol, which is a much more damaging drug.

[01:04:31] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:32] Star: Has a lot more, both nicotine and alcohol. We, we both know this, but I'm just like going off on a rant, but like, the fact that they both have like such higher rates of like physical dependency and like Right.

Damage to relationships and everything. It's just like a whole thing and I'm just

[01:04:46] Nicole: Right.

[01:04:46] Star: It pisses me off.

[01:04:47] Nicole: Right. So I think about all of the power structures that are mm-hmm. Impacting our relationships to substances and the way that we see ourselves, as well as the fact that everything I've studied with, um, chaotic use, we often call that addiction, but chaotic use of substances is often, um, again, a relational problem, not just to people.

Mm-hmm. But systems, systems of oppression. The relationship to that system is impacting them as well as the actual human relationships that are impacting them. So I don't. See addiction or chaotic use as a, as a person problem, as a disease. I see it more as a relational problem both to people and systems.

And so that's connected to relationship anarchy.

[01:05:26] Star: I absolutely agree. Everything, everything that like is a personal problem ties back to being a systemic problem on some level. Mm-hmm. Like even like the mental disorders you're born with, uh, there's like microplastics that interact with your genes in strange ways that can fuck you over in that way and like, or especially conditions that you develop because of trauma related to poverty and just, it's this whole thing.

And like everything, every single emotional issue can be tied back to all the ways that systems of oppression manifest in every person's life.

[01:05:58] Nicole: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:58] Star: And the intersecting ways in which countless people are oppressed by those systems. And also speaking of addiction, I've heard that psychedelics actually curb that addictive potential of other drugs.

And like that there's been research into like. It being really effective for like helping people stop smoking and like just helping people develop a more balanced, holistic approach to their life in general. And like, would you say that that psychedelics liberate connection and in the right set and setting, because obviously set and setting are vitally important for anything like that.

[01:06:33] Nicole: Set and setting is absolutely, incredibly important. So yeah, I think in the right community setting, which again we talked about is systems, right? So in the right system and container, it can absolutely help to curb those things. And also it's like, it's like all things, all things have light and dark sides, right?

So, um, there can be a lot of healing in it, but also people get addicted to psychedelics too. And so it's definitely they do

[01:06:55] Star: Oh yeah, for sure have much addictive potential. But, uh, yes, people just add like addictive to that, like introspection, like, because I've heard it's like a very introspective experience and like a very like revealing.

Openings within your own mind.

[01:07:09] Nicole: Yeah. Like so, so you can absolutely become addicted to ketamine, a psychedelic that I work with in therapy. You can absolutely. Um, some people consider cannabis a psychedelic, right. You can become addicted to that therapy. People who become I definitely, yeah. Addicted to even psilocybin.

Right. Using it every day, using big trips all the time and then never integrating it. And so that's absolutely possible.

[01:07:33] Star: Not being time and space to reflect on Yeah. How those experiences.

[01:07:37] Nicole: Yep. So it's light and dark. Everything has a light and dark kink, right? It has a light and a dark. Mm-hmm. You can absolutely heal and have creative play, expansive relationships.

And there can also be harm. There can be poor consent conversations. There can be lack of care. Right. I usually compare psychedelics in a similar way where it's like there can be so much healing in that. Whoa. And also there can absolutely be a shadow side to it. And so I think that all things in life, right?

I mean, you know,

[01:08:03] Star: also definitely be an excuse for bad actors to like be like, oh, we're doing consensual non free use, or consensual non consent, or like misusing these terms to people who are newer or what, whatever. Just like manipulating in terrible ways. But, but it can also be if like people are being genuine and like doing it in good faith and doing it to heal and to just have fun, then that can be very healthy thing.

Like it's the balance and it's the intention and. I think that's the case with almost anything in life. Yep. Any connection with anything and talking about connection in a, like a very broad way with substances, with your own kinks and, and your own, like sexual orientation and romantic identity and all the different, and the interplay of all of that and how you bring that out into the world and how, and just being very mindful of the type of people you're around and how much respect they have for you as a person.

[01:08:59] Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah.

[01:09:00] Star: Circling back to kink, that is, and yeah, kink is gonna be a very interesting thing to practice as like specifically explicitly a relationship anarchist. I'm looking forward to that.

[01:09:10] Nicole: You're gonna love my podcast. You're gonna love diving into all of that content. So I hope you enjoy, 'cause I love content.

I know I'm gonna love your podcast.

[01:09:17] Star: I knew from like the first episode I listened to that. I, I, amazing. Amazing.

[01:09:22] Nicole: Yeah. So in terms of balancing the light and the dark, right, and knowing that all things have that, the next question is, what are the joys of relationship anarchy?

[01:09:32] Star: Oh, it's, it's so joyful to just.

Have that freedom to customize my relationships and to like pick what I want, rather than like saying, you have to like, commit your whole life to this person and like sacrifice a bunch of your wellbeing. I can be like, oh wait, there can just be such a symbiosis here. It's not like, not like kind of sacrifice or emptiness or just like, and that ties back to the purity culture and like the religious, like you're expected to like sacrifice your meals, your fucking tithing, 10% of your income just even if you're fucking poor, you're expected to just like give that away and like take apart pieces of yourself and pieces of your autonomy to that religion.

And I feel like society has treated relationships in much the same way, but like it's a truly, like if you're practicing it right, it's a truly anarchist approach to relationships where it's not based on this power imbalance, it's not based on this like idea that you have to like take away something of yourself to be symbiotic and to like flourish in your connections and.

I really enjoy that. I really enjoy being, like, I have all the room in the world to like explore queer platonic connections and friends with benefits and possibly a little romance sprinkled in here when I'm in the mood. Yeah. And like deepening my friendships. Even just completely platonic and like even yeah, my like best friend who like, just feels like a brother to me.

And then like my like little brother who we're like both working through our like individual trans journeys and just seeing those all as equally valuable and like equally valuable, fulfilling layers of life and just mm-hmm. Taking it all in and taking all, like taking in all the gratitude that comes with it.

Yeah. And it's like a very liberating and expansive thing. And you even just as an absolute amateur and like absolute just starting out on this path, I like. I've gotten a sense of the boundlessness and the expansiveness that love to have in a way that I wasn't when I was in traditional like escalator relationships because I was focusing all my energy into this one person because that's what was expected to do.

And getting along with their family, even though their family could be kinda shitty. And having to navigate all those dynamics and like, and this gives me the freedom to also take a step back and be like, okay, I'm gonna cultivate the relationship with myself and my connection with great podcasts like yours or.

Or like just, and just like self-growth and it just mm-hmm. It just gave me so much autonomy and so much power over my own life that I wouldn't have just strictly adhering to all these scripts.

[01:12:02] Nicole: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The abundance of opportunity, the abundance of creativity, it really is endless. So much.

[01:12:09] Star: I love the feeling that I know I can explore and I, I know I can, like we were talking about with reconfiguration, it's not deescalation if it's like, if with my friend we've had moments like where we weren't as affectionate or intimate or whatever, but it was still equal.

I mean, and, and intimacy, I mean in the physical sense I was talking about, but like intimacy can also be like a profound philosophical conversation or just like knowing that someone's there for you mm-hmm. In like a moment, whatever. You have to say that they're here and they're here to support you, like mm-hmm.

That's just as intimate as any expectation of sex or romance or any of that. Like Right. Just recognizing that, right. Like. I've gotten such a fuller sense of value

[01:12:52] Nicole: Mm, mm-hmm.

[01:12:53] Star: From having this mindset. Yeah. I mean, I haven't had the opportunity to explore as much as I'd like to because I mean, like, I have a life outside of my philosophical outlook and how I try to apply that, but I don't know.

I'm, I'm just really, and I'm just, it gives me so much to look forward to.

[01:13:08] Nicole: Mm. That's so beautiful. So beautiful. What about you?

[01:13:11] Star: Um, like what, what are the main, like appeals to you for relationship anarchy? What are the joys?

[01:13:19] Nicole: Circles of laughter, circles of snuggles, kisses, holding hands, dancing care, tears, holding each other in those tears.

Right. Just, I, I, I really love. How wide my circle can be and the ways that I overlap, and other one, I mean, it is just such a joy to be able to have so many different people that I can connect with and have intimacy with. I feel so deeply connected in so many intimate relationships that I feel this abundance of love around me, and then therefore I'm able to give back to other people more abundantly and softer and more gently.

And so that is something that has absolutely changed my life. And I'm only just getting started, so I can't even fathom the amount of love and abundance and care that I am crafting.

I'm like, oh my God, this garden is so cool. I have so many good things growing right now.

This is, this is amazing, right? And so, don't get me wrong there.

Like I said, right? There are so many days where I've been crying confused, what, what, what is my life? Can I even do this? Where am I going? What am I doing? But, um, when I'm able to take a deep breath and relax and, and, you know, come back to my body, I can, I can come back to the space of joy and gratitude for all of the beautiful garden that I am creating.

[01:14:41] Star: And I like. Part of me also feels gratitude for the process. Like, oh, I almost feel gratitude for the, that's important. Pain and suffering I suffered before. So I just know that, that I have that perspective of how good it's now. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:14:54] Nicole: Totally. Totally. And your expansion is uncomfortable, right?

There's no amount of expansion that is gonna feel easy. That's not how we grow. We grow in discomfort. And so embracing that, of course, we don't wanna force ourselves into situations where being hurt, abused, et cetera, et cetera. But in before that space, like any good athlete knows, right, is you have to push yourself and extend and really push in that way.

And so growth is never going to be comfortable. And so I hope that both us and all of the listeners can continue to expand and push past our comfort to stretch and then be held in community when we need to. When I am crying and I have so many people pouring in that love, that's what we all need when I'm,

[01:15:37] Star: it's such a wonderful thing.

I think that's what every living being needs.

[01:15:41] Nicole: Absolutely. Well then yeah. What do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy? That's the last question here, and I think that you've shared so much of what other people should know, but

[01:15:53] Star: I'm, I'm trying to come up with something new because I've said so much about this topic and I, and I wanna explore more, and I want to like discover more like through your podcast and through different resources.

Mm-hmm. And just like, expand my understanding and like expand the depth of all of that and all the ways they intersect.

[01:16:09] Nicole: Yeah.

[01:16:10] Star: You, you said, how do I wish what I wish people knew about relationship anarchy. Yeah.

[01:16:14] Nicole: Yeah. I'm, I'm so grateful for everything that you have shared today and I, I wanna make sure

[01:16:19] Star: I'm so grateful for you giving me like an opportunity to talk about this with someone who really understands and really understands that world and the beauty of it.

[01:16:27] Nicole: Yeah.

[01:16:28] Star: Um, and I really deeply appreciate that. I really appreciate. Feeling so heard and feeling, yeah. And feeling like I can relate to someone on this, like, on such a deep level and like I, that I can, that I can talk for like almost two hours about hell, hell yeah. Like right about like an intense special interest that I've wanted to invest more and more energy in.

Um, yeah,

[01:16:48] Nicole: of course. Of course. You're in the right space. Yeah.

[01:16:52] Star: Um, to help me answer this question, I remember having a conversation you had. Mm-hmm. I can't pinpoint names, I'm terrible at names, but you're talking about the difference between relationship anarchy and relationship libertarianism.

[01:17:03] Nicole: Mel Cassidy.

[01:17:03] Star: Yes. Yes. That is a great episode. Could you, could you elaborate on that a little bit, like the Mel Cassidy? I didn't, I didn't know that specific term.

[01:17:11] Nicole: Uh, yeah. So we had talked about the ways that libertarianism is hyper individual, hyper individual. Mm-hmm. Right. The individual has all the freedom where anarchy and its philosophy is actually about community care.

Yeah, exactly. And so the person who goes around in their life and says, I'm a relationship anarchist, you can't control, fuck, you just fucked around

[01:17:32] Star: and like, doesn't like Yes. And doesn't like emotionally invest in anyone and doesn't give a shit about Yeah.

[01:17:37] Nicole: That's maybe more libertarianism than anarchy. So we could,

[01:17:42] Star: I mean like, like very, it's, it's, it's very funny, this is a little bit of a political tangent, but like the political history, like libertarian used to mean like communist and very community oriented and very like labor rights, like in like the days of like the late 19th, early 20th century when people were like starting communes and resisting big corporations.

But I was just often been just like corporate right wing suck up. It's been so distorted by like corporate media and everything. Just that, yeah. This whole side tangent. But like that relationship anarchy isn't that, and it's not an excuse to like Mm, disregard someone's boundaries and disregard someone's preferences and like

[01:18:19] Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:18:21] Star: And that it is like very much about that community and very much about not just autonomy, but connection and like that those things go hand in hand in that community and autonomy. Like you don't have to sacrifice who you are and your authenticity to be a part of a community of beautiful connections.

And like the good connections will affirm you for who you are in your gender identity, sexual orientation, romantic Phil, different philosophical outlooks that you can be in that community and. You can cultivate a safe space through relationship anarchy, because like, just culturally, we have such an idea of anarchy that's like chaos, discord.

Like anything goes, like, it's, it's the natural impulse for people to like transmit that, try to transmit to that into like the interpersonal sense. I'm really, I, I'm so grateful that I have like, that I'm such a nerd and I have this understanding of the political philosophy of it because I'm like, that really enhances my understanding of relationship anarchy and like a little bit of the history of that.

And like Emma Goldman and like these different figures who would, who are really like real bad asses. Totally. Who really fought for the rights of marginalized groups. Yeah. And that anarchy was also always social justice and not just joker edge lords or Right, right. Totally. It's about having thriving, vibrant communities and thriving vibrant relationships with like, if you have pets or if you like a vibrant, healthy relationship with knowledge and your own introspection and your own musings.

And it's just about this, like, uh, the anarch, uh mm-hmm. Kind of illustrated this point to me that like, it's like anarchism as a way of life, as a way of like interpersonally engaging in your every day. And that's like one of the most powerful things you can do to get a movement against hierarchy and for flourishing autonomous connections is to practice it on a very everyday scale and to like honor people and honor their own individuality and honor the what you can bring to each other if you decide to form a connection of any sort.

Mm-hmm.

[01:20:25] Nicole: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so I, I appreciate you sharing that with the listeners and giving them such insight into your experience.

[01:20:33] Star: I'm more than happy to. I'm like, I'm so honored to be able to like. To have like someone who's like so engaged with this and like has this as a like, life life's work.

[01:20:43] Nicole: Yeah.

[01:20:43] Star: And like bring on this newbie who like just barely got introduced to the concept like a few, three, five months ago. I don't even know. Wow. Welcome.

[01:20:54] Nicole: Welcome. Totally, totally.

[01:20:58] Star: I'm really, I am very excited to explore everything further and to just explore all the layers of depth that'll bring and like expansive joy and that connection and that like shared laughter, like you said.

Mm-hmm. And like all, all those things and all those things that are my future, despite the bleakness of all the systems of oppression and all, nothing can stamp out that spirit of connection. Yeah, yeah. Like, no, no oppressive system. Like that's where I disagree with 1984, honestly, because like 1984 you have the ending where it's like very, if sorry if you haven't read a 1984 spoilers, but it's like very completely stamped out of the people and there's no, there's no way out of.

Just the, the desolate, uh, connectionless. Individualists,

[01:21:44] Nicole: right?

[01:21:45] Star: Individualists, like not having individuality, not

[01:21:48] Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:21:48] Star: Like suffering under this totalitarian regime. I, I don't think that's actually a possible reality in my mind. I think that humanity, um, has too much richness to, to experience into our connections that that can never be stamped out of us no matter how hard systems of oppression try.

Yeah. I think that's a really beautiful thing.

[01:22:07] Nicole: I appreciate that optimism and I appreciate Yeah. Everything that you've shared today, because we will change the systems together, right? No single one of us can change it, so we have to do it collectively and Absolutely. I wanna,

[01:22:21] Star: part of anarchy too is it's not just like, Hey, I'm just doing my own thing.

I'm this the like edge Lord, whoever it's. It's a collective collaborative effort, like as every good human project is.

[01:22:34] Nicole: Right, right, right, right. Exactly. Exactly. And so I will guide you towards the very last question of today. But first, I've been practicing this for myself, which is a deep breath. I We gotta slow down.

Right? We gotta slow down. Take a deep breath. Um, so what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

[01:22:59] Star: Having lots of intimacy with your friends?

[01:23:02] Nicole: Hell yeah.

[01:23:04] Star: Yes. I'm like, that is a more common thing than, uh, the larger culture would have you believe. And additionally, that those things can be very, very, very fulfilling in a way that for people like me who are very unsure about their romance element of things and are very, have a very turbulent relationship that like.

That friendship as a foundation rather than this capital R relationship and all the weird expectations that come with it. Yeah. Like that friendship can be the very best foundation for intimacy. And like it can stay there and be every bit as fulfilling as all of those hopeless romantics with their capital R relationships and like their marriages and their families.

Like that our way of life can be just as fulfilling. Mm-hmm. And just as deeply satisfying and that that shouldn't be stigmatized. Like I remember like talking to like certain, like certain people and just them being like, wait, what? You do this stuff with your friends?

[01:24:04] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:24:05] Star: And like, and stigmatized, like it's

[01:24:08] Nicole: mm-hmm.

[01:24:09] Star: Like, and I wish people knew that that was a natural thing for people to do and that it was natural for people to even have sex and kink and all these things as aspects of their friendships.

[01:24:19] Nicole: Yeah.

[01:24:20] Star: And, and it's not just this like flint, like shallow, like pe like in our culture, like the idea of a friends with benefits is like such a shallow, the media portrayal of it's so shallow and it's often like portrayed as like a stepping stone towards like an escalator style relationship.

Mm-hmm. And often portrayed as this, oh, you're just in this immature phase of just wanting to fuck each other and you don't know real romantic commitment yet you'll get there. Mm-hmm. Like with this whole patronizing bullshit, I'm like, no, I've realized that I wanna stay there and I don't actually want that relationship escalator.

I don't want to like follow these social scripts. I want to authentically embody connection as it resonates with my soul.

[01:25:02] Nicole: Yeah, the freedom to do that, the world would be a better place when we can all hold hands, right? When we can all have that liberation in our intimacy, the ability to freely love the world will be a better place.

I can feel it in my body, and so I'm so, so grateful that you came onto the podcast today. So thank you for joining me. Thank you so much

[01:25:22] Star: for like having me. It was really. It was really fulfilling and really good to get that all out. And like, just to articulate like to Yeah. And that you gave me more language to articulate myself.

[01:25:32] Nicole: Mm. Um,

[01:25:33] Star: I'm gonna use reconfiguring a lot more often because that's just less an expansive thing that it's another tool for me to like decondition that hierarchy. And I'm like really looking forward to, uh, listening to more of your content. Aw. And just like expanding my horizon. Yeah. Like expanding my perspective of this because there's always more to learn.

[01:25:50] Nicole: Totally. Totally. We grow in relationships, so thank you for growing with me and helping me to grow as well. Yeah. So thank you.

[01:25:57] Star: I'm really honored by that because I'm like, if someone's like this much, this well into it and has this much wisdom about it, like for me to help them grow, that's that, that means a lot.

[01:26:06] Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. It truly, it is a joy every time. So thank you. I appreciate that. If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast. And head on over to Modern Anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode.

I wanna thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.