[00:00:00] Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole.
On today's episode, we have Ren join us. Thanks for a conversation about our ever evolving connection to the erotic. Together we talk about making out in confessional booths, learning to receive, and creating expansive connections. Hello dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.
I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Nicole, I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice, supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.
Dear Listener, hello, hello, hello. Wow, you know, a few episodes back I had mentioned how all of these episodes were recorded in a bulk recording before I went on my internship year, which I'm currently on, and Wanted to have enough content to be able to make it through a full year of an academic internship before I finish my doctorate.
And so, this episode is about 11 months old, and I will tell you, dear listener, After recording this episode, it really stuck with me. And The thing that stuck with me was this concept of bottoming, the receiving of pleasure. And Ren and I talk about what it means to just receive, right? And I have a post it note I'm looking at right now on my wall that says I am not free until I can receive.
Can I receive just pleasure without immediately feeling like I need to give back to the other person? Can I have a full orgasm, a full experience, and not feel this sense of obligation? to give back. It's very similar to when you receive a compliment. We often immediately give one back to someone versus letting that sink in and actually receiving that.
And wow, dear listener, a lot has changed for me in the last 11 months in terms of integrating that one. I feel pretty confident in my ability and, uh, I hope you do too. And if not, What an invitation to start exploring what it means to receive pleasure from your partners without having to immediately give back.
To remind yourself that the gift of being with you, the gift of seeing your body in pleasure, is It's everything that you need there. And of course, you know, we want to give back to the people we love, we want to give back to the people that are bringing us pleasure, but the deeper question I think is important.
Can you just receive what comes up for you? In terms of your ownership of pleasure, you're right to pleasure when you think about just receiving, and I really hope that you enjoy today's episode exploring non monogamy and pleasure and all the good things when it comes to sexual freedom.
Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources at modernanarchypodcast. com. Linked in the show notes below and I want to say a big shout out to all of my patreon members You are supporting the long term sustainability of the podcast Keeping this content free and accessible to all people.
So thank you if you want to join the patreon community Get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration? Then you can head on over to patreon. com slash modernanarchypodcast. Also linked in the show notes below. And with that, dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.
Alright, so the first question that I ask every guest is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
[00:04:58] Ren: Yeah, I like that question. I noticed that in your, the podcast that I've listened to and I thought that was a good, a good question. I think. Most people probably tend to label themselves off of their occupation, which, like, for me personally, I've never really resonated with the way that I make money, but I am on the journey of going back to school for psychology because I want to Aim towards work, like becoming a therapist and working with queer people and trans people and people with religious trauma.
But on top of that, I'll just say I'm sober, I'm 40 years old, I'm non binary, poly, and queer. And just like my personal studies revolve around self awareness, conflict resolution, parts work, polyamory, and finding authenticity. And really, like, finding my voice since coming out of the church. Yeah. I've been mainly reading fiction books this year, like, thought provoking ones, um, which has been really exciting to sort of branch away from, like, self help stuff, even though that's something that I'm always, always doing.
And yeah, I've been off social media for two years. Congrats. Yeah, thanks. Haha. It's been amazing.
[00:06:21] Nicole: Yeah, I'm sure.
[00:06:23] Ren: I love it. And yeah, I basically avoid stagnancy at all costs and I'm trying to find the balance between like being present and finding my next adventure, whether it's like physical or mental.
And yeah, I have a primary nesting partner. As well as a satellite, both of two years, and I've been living in Philly for 10 years and I'm about to move to upstate New York and it's been a pretty big transitional time.
[00:06:52] Nicole: I'm sure, I'm sure. Well, thank you for coming on to the podcast and I'm excited to talk, uh, yeah, sex relationships and liberation with you today.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, so I'm thinking I know in your guest form, you had talked a little bit about polyamory, right? And relational dynamics and had mentioned some interest in my dissertation research on relationship anarchy. I'm curious. Is there anything about that where you'd want to start today?
[00:07:21] Ren: Even though I haven't fully claimed relationship anarchy, um, it is something that I base.
You know something I feel like I'm aiming more towards within my relationships in terms of like Hierarchy and like couple privilege and stuff like that
[00:07:40] Nicole: Yeah, absolutely, it's a lot to unpack in terms of the narratives I think specifically about You're talking about the Christian background, right?
Those are very specific narratives of how to live a life and so to come to that relationship anarchy blink White canvas, right? Um, I'm curious. Like, how are you living into those values? It said you said it's something that you're living towards. Like, what is that looking like for you?
[00:08:09] Ren: Yeah, I think we're just coming into the polyamorous world over the past 2.
5 years. Um, my journey kind of started. Maybe like five years ago when I started learning more about religious trauma, so like, getting into somatic work and starting to like, find my voice and like, finding authenticity and realizing through multiple, I mean, really all a life full of monogamous relationships that.
I never was a cheater, but I never could maintain a relationship longer than like a year and a half. I guess the typical length of like NRE, right?
[00:08:49] Nicole: Right, right.
[00:08:50] Ren: But, uh, I think that it's because I just didn't realize that polyamory was really like a Option, because like you said, the religious world, especially like Christianity and in most religions, it's just not an option.
It's not even something that you can think about. So, I started working with a somatic coach and that's when I was like, okay, yeah, like, I'm polyamorous and then that was when I was still just dating and I wasn't in a relationship yet. So, from starting to create that foundation for myself. When I got into a relationship, both of my partners, like, starting around the same time with two totally different dynamics and, like, structures, I was just, I don't know, I was very adamant about what it meant to me for it to, like, look a certain way and for it to, you know, not to be perceived a certain way, but for just, like, in terms of boundaries and in terms of what felt sustainable for me or, Even reflecting on my tendencies in relationships over time with nesting partners or long term partners, like what generally tends to happen and like how to kind of like, you know, work through that or, or I don't know.
[00:10:07] Nicole: Sure. Yeah, totally. Yeah, it reminds me a lot of my psychedelic work, right? How enlightening, how many ego deaths do you go through when you do this sort of, like, open relating and expansive relating, and I think, you know, it's important in the same way that the psychedelic community doesn't seem to think that just having done psychedelics makes you more enlightened, because that's bullshit, right?
Doing non monogamy doesn't make you more enlightened, but damn, does it certainly highlight some shit, you know, real fast, where you're like, whoa, I didn't know I was making all of these unstated expectations. Whoa, I didn't know I was so insecure in my attachment over here. Whoa, I didn't know that, right?
And so, for me, it reminds me a lot of the psychedelic. You're really like, dropped into a, you know, they talk about it as a non specific amplifier. And I feel like non monogamy is a non specific amplifier of attachment, right? Like you're like, really feeling that, really navigating that in higher levels, um, in that sort of, uh, amplified state.
So I think there's so much to unpack in there and I'm still feeling it. you know, like years into it, right? I can only imagine, um, what I'll be unpacking in future years of it. But, uh, maybe this will resonate with you in terms of like what I'm able to, uh, unpack, sit with, be present with now. It reminds me a lot of rock climbing.
Like that first time I looked up the, looked up at the, you know, wall, got to the top and it was like shaking compared to like, Killing it these days, right? Like, totally climbing some radical stuff that I could have never imagined. And so it does keep getting better, at least for me, in terms of what I can process and handle these days.
[00:11:42] Ren: Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah, it's, it's 100 percent a process. I mean, it's like, speaking to attachment styles, like, it's something that I've always been interested in, obviously more so after reading Polysecure, and Learning, you know, just like, about in terms of non monogamy, like. Both of my partners, I sort of, one, I lean more towards being avoidant and one, I can lean more towards being anxious.
So it's almost like, just interesting how, you know, depending on the dynamic, it can go either.
[00:12:19] Nicole: Yes, exactly. That is something I've definitely talked about in my therapy work is it's like, it's not that simple of, Oh, what attachment style do you have? It's like, uh, I've seen all of them come out with different people.
Sometimes with the same person in different states, you know, like one day I'm like, no, don't leave me clingy. The next day I get dysregulated and I'm so activated, but I'm like, this is done. I don't even need this person. I'm out. I'm out. I'm out. Right. The avoidant, you know, and it's like, I think it really just all comes out when you're in that amplified state of these various attachments.
And so, yeah, there's still so much here to unpack in terms of attachment and all that. And I think that part of it is really the narrative. We are narrative, existential, meaning making beings, right? It's you see that around even like foods, right? Like foods that in certain cultures are normalized and in some cultures, we'd be like, Oh, that's gross.
How could you ever write? Like, these are very similar concepts, right? Of of the things that we find, like this sort of innate desire for being so culturally laid in there. Cultures that practice non monogamy as their cultural practice, and so the idea of monogamy would be unfathomable, right? And so, I think sometimes it's really hard for us to take that sort of look internally and, and wonder how much of this is our own innate desire versus societal expectations.
You know, that's a lifelong journey there.
[00:13:41] Ren: Oh, yeah. I recently have, or am currently reading Sex at Dawn.
[00:13:46] Nicole: Mm hmm.
[00:13:47] Ren: And, so Deep dive.
[00:13:49] Nicole: Deep dive!
[00:13:51] Ren: It is. I mean, it's like, it can be a tough read in the beginning, like, you know, going into all the differences of the different types of apes and all of that. But I think that it's cool to read the scientific evolution and evidence of non monogamy because So many people just see the world from the past few generations that they've been alive or whatever, and just don't even think about the fact that before modern day civilization, or even outside of America, it's just not the case, but because it's the only thing that we see.
And the only thing that's been implemented for us. Yeah, it's hard to get out of that, like, monogamous mindset, like, even on a subconscious level, it's constantly affecting us. Right.
[00:14:42] Nicole: Totally. Right. And I think that's where I think back about, like, my internalized homophobia and my unknowingness of my queer identity.
When I was in Christian culture, I would have smacked you if you told me I was queer. How dare you? I am absolutely not. No. No. Right? And so. I think that when I look back on that, I was like, whoa, Nicole, you had no idea how deep those cultural narratives were impacting you. Whoa. Right. And I think that, you know, yeah, Sex at Dawn is so fascinating.
Like trying to pull it into our contemporary conversation. I, I talk about these different pieces as practices, right? Non monogamy being a practice, monogamy being a practice, relationship anarchy, practice. Because if I sit down, you know, any human in a, like, laboratory context, right, and we have, have them watch porn, our bodies, our genitals respond.
Your body responds to multiple people, not just one. You watch that movie, you see that hot TV star, your body responds to multiple people. Now, what you do with that is a practice. You know what I mean? Like, it's just so crazy to me. I guess, like, I want to respect the conversation around orientation, but really when we look at it, we all have interest in multiple people.
Some of us never want to explore that at the same time. Great. Some of us need that at the same time. Great. But at the core, like, we're all social beings with sexual attraction to multiple people, and I feel like I hope that part of the conversation can at least be normalized for, like, even the monogamous relationships to, like, have that as be part of the discussion of, like, it makes sense.
We're attracted to beautiful humans in the world, and we choose to invest our time and energy here. Great. Right. Great, great. How much suffering is like, literally just in that of like, you found that person attractive? You what? It's like, oh, beauty is beauty, my friends. You know what I mean? Like,
[00:16:47] Ren: well, also we're the only like, you know, just like living thing that even analyzes that type of thought.
You know what I mean? It's like, My dog isn't thinking about, like, who's butt it sniffs, you know what I mean? Like, it's not like, whoa, like, that is, like, really too much into my personal space. Like, let's have a boundaries conversation. Like, it's just, like, not even a thing that they think about. And, like, so it's just funny that, like, Because we have the mental capacity to be able to, like, break shit down and, like, you know, talk about those types of things, we think that, like You know, we have to just override our natural reactions to like you said, like watching someone have sex or like, whatever, or like being like, Oh, no, like, I can't do that because that's not acceptable or like my partner will get upset or like, you know, whatever.
Um, and I've been joking recently about how my Christian self, you know, in high school would, if they saw me now, literally
[00:18:00] Nicole: praying,
[00:18:03] Ren: living the most sinful lifestyle that I could have ever imagined. And, uh, it's good. It's great. Yeah. It's, it's like, it's wild, but. Being, you know, held accountable for so many years to, like, not feed into my sinful nature or whatever is just a ridiculous thing to think about at this point.
[00:18:26] Nicole: Totally. I mean, it's years of social conditioning, of cutting ourselves off from our body, right? Because the body is sinful, the body is flesh. Do not listen. If you have any thoughts of Anybody else you've already committed adultery in the eyes of the Lord, right? So like you are totally scanning those thoughts, constantly trying to turn them off rather than being connected to your body and your eroticism and learning ways to move through the world with that.
Right? Again, not just unleashing that out onto the world, but to be able to like, Oh, I have these feelings. That's okay, and I'm gonna choose what to do with them. It's so clamped down. It's so repressed and this is a hundred percent why we see the absolute horrific atrocities of Non consensual stuff within that community right that needs to be talked about there's so much going on in that because it's so don't talk about it Don't talk about it.
Don't talk about it. And so Part of my political agenda is to talk about the orgy that I went to, right? Because I think that the more we talk about this, the more we create spaces to have these conversations, so it's not so in the dark, and so we can dream of what is possible. Um, but you're right, coming from that paradigm, it's so many years of cutting that off.
Despite the fact that, like, King David had 700 wives and 300 concubines, it was the chosen man of God, right? We forget that part, but that, you know, I've been here a while. You can tell I, I got some points already to hit him with.
[00:19:54] Ren: You'll probably be proud, uh, that I recently made out in a confessional booth.
[00:19:58] Nicole: Ooh, that's powerful. That's powerful. Do you want to talk about what that means? Let's integrate that psychedelic experience right here.
[00:20:10] Ren: Yeah. It's, it's just like things that. I was constantly creating, like, resistance around, or, like, had accepted as, like, the thorn in my side, or whatever, I am able to, like, embrace, and, like, part of that, you know, around my work with religious trauma was actually connecting with queer Christians. I don't like to, like, feel victimized to it.
You know, I don't like to blame, like, my experience with the church or, like, my rejection or unacceptance, like, by, you know, the Christians that I knew. But like, to find the queer people that are like, yeah, like, basically to just differentiate Christian, Christians from, you know, my idea of what God is, is not necessarily rooted in Christianity anymore, but I would still say I'm like a spiritual person.
So yeah, I mean, having an experience of making out in a confession booth, it's like, just kind of ironic, because being in a Catholic church is So rooted in like tradition and like dogma and all that and there's no like lie. There's no like sense of liveliness, you know, in terms of God, even being there is God there.
I mean, I have no idea. So it's kind of like this interesting metaphor of. Of being able to laugh at myself or whatever.
[00:21:48] Nicole: It sounds very empowering and like a really like moment to take that space and, and you know, something that has that had that history and past and to have ownership over it through your divine pleasure in there.
Hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Very powerful. I'm here for that. So hell yeah. Yeah. So many kink scenes I've experienced are running through my head right now in terms of playing with this stuff, right? It's true. The Catholics have the kinkiest of sex. We have, you know, so much power, like differentials going on. I even think about in the past, I've thought about the world of like, you know, God's constantly watching you.
Like that's taught from such a young age, which is like, just, again, the beginnings of an exhibitionist. fantasy, right? Like, oh, someone's constantly watch. Oh, oh,
[00:22:34] Ren: God, the number one voyeur.
[00:22:39] Nicole: Totally. Which in the time you're like, oh no, he's watching, you know, like Santa Jesus, but like, oh no, you know, but then like that creates a constant world in your head.
We were thinking about. Who is watching me. And so yeah, when you start to play with the empowerment of it, that's still deep within there, you know, and so there's a lot to play with. Um, I like to talk about like, yeah, the ways that these experiences can really create so much like play and moments for empowerment for us as we like move forward into our narratives with it.
[00:23:08] Ren: Yeah, I mean the idea of like fetishes and like stuff like that is interesting because it's like, there's ways that I have fetishized religious trauma that Does feel empowering. And then there's also been ways that have. Sort of been unhealthy for me, like around, you know, like being a secret because, you know, for so long I had to keep my queerness a secret.
So, like, I, when I started going to therapy, I realized that I was only dating unavailable people or dating people that were, like, non consensually cheating on their partners with me. I was fetishizing it in a way that wasn't actually healthy or beneficial for me, and I didn't realize that I was doing it until I could associate it with religious trauma.
[00:24:04] Nicole: Mm hmm.
[00:24:05] Ren: Or there's been situations where I've blamed religious trauma, or I've used religious trauma to, in terms of my sexual preferences, like, okay, maybe I'm not into this because I have repressed this aspect of my sexuality, or no, you know, maybe it's not actually religious trauma. Maybe it's just body dysmorphia, and I don't actually prefer doing that because it doesn't give me euphoria in my body, you know?
So it's It can be a really hard thing to differentiate sometimes.
[00:24:40] Nicole: Totally. How many times can you spin that Rubik's Cube around, right? Like, what is this? Where is this coming from, right? And it's probably some yes and to all of it, but yeah, I just think about like, you know, the man who is only interested in dominating fems and women and that's the only way that they get off is kink ds dynamics.
Right. When do we actually ask the questions of like, yes, we're pro kink. Yes, we're pro exploring and having the space to explore these things. But also if that's the only way you're getting off, when do we need to look at that and say, patriarchy has probably affected you, my friend. Right? And kind of have that deeper nuanced conversation about that.
And so I, I get angry when that attack then becomes on all of kink, because when I'm playing with the DS dynamic with my two fem lovers, like, is that not even more empowering? But then, then, then there's that subsequent deeper question of like, is that not just the larger patriarchal colonial structures influencing into your psyche?
Maybe, or maybe power is fun to play with and letting go and submitting and I mean, again, these are questions you could just simmer in for literally a lifetime and I don't think we'll know kind of like you're saying through therapy of unpacking that like. Yeah, what does a utopian world look like where there is no longer shame, where we can talk about our pleasure, where we could safely talk about the BDSM dungeon that you went to, and in those states, what does turn us on?
I don't know. Right? Right now, with all the shame that is in our culture, there is so much of shame that is fun and erotic to play with, because it's what we've been conditioned around. Ooh, this is bad. Naughty. Don't talk about it. So then, of course, we like to play with the bad and the naughty, right? So, oh yeah, I have deep questions about what the future of our eroticism looks like when we're in a much more shameless society about it.
Unknowns. Unknowns.
[00:26:39] Ren: Yeah, man. I am looking forward to that day. In terms of like gender roles and, and even like, uh, societal norms around, yeah, like who takes the dom role or who takes the sub role or whatever is like something I've been processing a lot recently, like since I started taking testosterone, because I, you know, can still get boxed into the idea of what like being a mask presenting person means or like what It should mean and also like now that I'm taking hormones like what I feel like my body is Desiring like in different ways.
So I feel like something that if you're open to it can constantly be Evolving but yeah, so many people are stuck in like the stereotype of like what? Patriarchy tells you that you're supposed to do or you're like weak.
[00:27:39] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:27:40] Ren: It's wild.
[00:27:41] Nicole: Absolutely. I'm curious what's been like helpful for you as you're kind of navigating that unpacking process.
What has been helpful?
[00:27:48] Ren: Yeah, I read Stone Butch Blues, which if you haven't read that is a great one, but that's kind of where I found the language around being stone and being a service top. So, like, I started learning more about, I've never been too into labels, but the more I find language around it, the more I kind of love it because it's almost like, this makes sense.
Like, this resonates with me. Oh, like, they're talking about me. Like, that's exactly what I am. Like, I find pleasure in giving pleasure. I don't need to receive it. So it's like, Being in so many monogamous relationships, it's just assumed that you're switch and that, like, you know, if I wasn't allowing someone to please me, then they were like missing out on something that they wanted.
You know what I mean? Well, non monogamy, it's like, you don't have to do that. Like, you can just say like, okay, and this isn't dynamic. This is how I am in this dynamic. This is how I am. There's no assumptions or whatever. No one has to, like, miss out on anything. So until I, like, accepted that and claimed that idea, like, within non monogamy, it wasn't until I was able to more so process what it was that I preferred, like, So it's it's complicated.
[00:29:02] Nicole: Yeah, I mean, what I'm hearing is the constant change, right? Change change. Just when you think it's there, like, keeps moving, right? It's like, which makes sense is like our narratives unfold, right? Like, you just talked to me about it. That maybe changes just even even the slightest little bit of like, where you're at before this conversation, and then you'll have another conversation and then another and then like, years pass by.
by and we've added up all that stuff. And so of course, we're not like existentially at the same point anymore. Right. So, which is scary because it's like, where are we going? But also how beautiful, right. To know that it's this constant process of connection to our authenticity, connection to our pleasure, connection to language that better communicates with people where we're at.
And. At least in my own journey, I definitely resonate with what you were saying about these different relationships and being able to explore different aspects of erotic connection with people really expansively in ways that, you know, you could, you don't have to feel like it's this full Like being a service top, right, versus in the more like one on one dynamics feeling like you said, like that feeling like you're missing out on something.
Wow, I've struggled with that. I've really struggled with just being like a, like a bottom, right? Like, see, I even put the word in there, just a bottom, just a bottom. Because the second I receive, I'm like, Oh, I, I need to give back. I need to, uh, uh, you know, and that has been absolutely fascinating to explore in these different dynamics of like, what is that automatic tendency that comes up?
Where did that come from? How deep is that in my psyche? And then when I do pin back to being taught as a Christian, like, okay, Nicole, my mom, love her. One, she's like, one day you're going to be giving your body to your husband. Giving, right? Giving. So I'm service or I'm bottoming at the dungeon and then all of a sudden I feel the need to give and it's like, ah, okay, okay, okay, okay.
Right. So like so much to unpack that. You're right, like the more that we get into these various dynamics, like we were talking about the attachment that comes up, the sex dynamics that come up when you're with other people, oh my god, right? Intense.
[00:31:17] Ren: It's funny that you say that your mom talks about giving your body to your husband because I think that actually the idea like for Christians Is that like when you're giving your body when I've like an AFAB person is giving their body to a an AMAB person that AMAB person is literally just using their body as a Whole, you know, it's like I feel like most Women like in the Christian world aren't giving anything.
They're just laying there and they're not Receiving pleasure. I'm sure like I mean, especially if they you know feel like sex is only for procreation Right, you're basically allowing yourself To receive without actually getting anything in terms of like bottoming, like, and learning more about, like, being like a power bottom, for example, or being like a bratty bottom better words, being the one, like, calling the shots as a bottom while receiving, especially if it's, you know, if it's a heterosexual relationship, or even a queer relationship, like, penis and vagina, like, dynamic, like, the exchange, like, Can be so much different when I don't know like for me It's like if i'm giving if I have my strap on and i'm giving Then i'm not actually feeling anything or i'm not actually like, you know, there isn't the possibility that i'm going to Have an orgasm and lose my boner.
You know what I mean? Like, it's like, so the, the dynamic can just like continue to play based off of like a fetish or an idea or like a desire or whatever. So, yeah, the whole idea of giving yourself to your husband is just like mind blowing to me, I guess.
[00:33:13] Nicole: Me too.
[00:33:14] Ren: Yeah.
[00:33:15] Nicole: But. Instead of co creating with your husband, right?
Like it's like truly like you're an, talk about BDSM, right? Like here's, you're an object for your husband to take, right? Which is fun when you do it consensually, right? But not when it's a forced paradigm upon you of like you're gonna give your body again as if it's an object to give to them, right? So like.
That's where it was like a non consensual dynamic, because I didn't get a choice of any other paradigm, right? That's what I was taught, and that's where it started, right? And, and yeah, there is no discussion of your pleasure. There is no discussion of you can, you know, be the bottom that says this is how you want it to look.
All that sort of stuff. Stuff just wasn't talked about, and it's a part of what creates, like, the grooming conditions of, uh, purity culture, and it's something I've talked about, um, it was a great episode with Dr. Rachel Smith that kind of went into that, and she's done a lot of purity culture recovery groups, and seen, like, repeated patterns, uh, repeated patterns of how That sort of teaching really, like, creates conditions for, for violence and other sorts of things because you're not taught bodily autonomy, let alone pleasure.
And hence why, at least for me personally, it has been such a radical experience to have these queer experiences, um, and to have these expansive non monogamous experiences, and to have these experiences in the dungeon where, like, I've quite literally learned to communicate my pleasure with multiple people and feel safe with that in ways that was never taught to me.
[00:34:49] Ren: Yeah, so now it's like the idea of like just bottoming is like a very like powerful place to be because like for me like I, I think because of my religious trauma, I have a hard time receiving because it's like a more like, I, I, I think about this like being a service top. Like, I, I wonder and like, I question if I like to give in that way because it feels like less like sinful or something to receive to just like receive pleasure.
Physically and like, it's something that I need to, like, I think still work through in order to be able to receive physically or if, you know, I just like, don't prefer to receive physically in that way, but like. You know, being a power bottom, there's also, you know, the idea that someone who is a top, a service top wants to be with someone that isn't going to try and give back, you know, I can't have a sexual relationship with someone that wants to give back.
Like, it just doesn't work. So, like. Accepting, uh, the, you know, role or preference of being a bottom is a powerful, um, realization to, like, fully embrace for the people that, you know, are looking for that. So it's like. Yeah, you don't need to put the word just in front.
[00:36:19] Nicole: I know, I'm like literally trying to listen to that and integrate that into my body.
I'm thinking about, like, literally the experience I had had with one of my lovers, and them, like, yeah, offering to talk, and me immediately just feeling like, Oh, I gotta give back, I gotta give back, right? And I think that, like, it is quite literally hard to hear that and to integrate that of, like, No, like they have had the beautiful experience of of servicing my body.
And that is the gift. There is no, you know, that further expectation. Um, and so to actually feel that I talk about, like, the idea of, like, I'm not free until I can receive, right. And like, what does it mean for me to actually receive and not feel that obligation? Um, and until then, I don't know if I'm like really free and liberated just because it's so deeply ingrained in me.
And so it is something that like, yeah, when you're speaking about it, I'm thinking like, yes, okay, how do I integrate that? So I don't have this like automatic knee jerk reaction. Um. And I feel like the first time I really noticed that too was like when I had a sexological body work experience where like I had paid someone, you know, and so like there and money is its own power dynamic.
Right? So, but I paid someone and during that experience felt this such need to like, give back to them. Like, Oh, I need to hug them or service them back. And I was like, what the fuck? Like that's fascinating. Where is that coming from? Right? Like I literally paid this person. I do not need to do that. And it was like my first insight many years ago into this sort of like automatic expectation of service.
Um, so I think that definitely tracks to something I'm still unpacking.
[00:37:52] Ren: Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's, it also though is a service. To me, when you or any bottom, you know, just receives, that's the service, like you are giving back. So that's the thing, like, that's the ironic part about it, is like, that's exactly what a service top wants, like, that's all that they want.
So like, in that regard, like, you are giving back.
[00:38:22] Nicole: I know. Which is beautiful. And I'm so happy that we're having this conversation on a public platform, because You know, like, where do you have that conversation for someone to learn that? That's not modeled, you know? And unless you're in the community and the culture, and then you start to have conversations like this, and you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But how many people have never even heard of that concept and then would absolutely go through the same patterns that I've struggled with in terms of feeling like, I'm not doing enough.
[00:38:52] Ren: Right. Yeah.
[00:38:55] Nicole: Mm hmm.
[00:38:56] Ren: I mean, that's like, you know can lead into just another aspect of Capitalistic America, but like, you know, we no one ever thinks that they're doing enough in any regard
[00:39:10] Nicole: Absolutely Absolutely.
So then you add something complicated like eroticism on top and it's a wow, you know, like the whole thing blows up totally Yeah, and so I think that It's some of the beauty of being able to explore these different parts of ourselves erotically. Um, we've always talked about in psychology, how your sense of self is formed by all your different relationships.
And so, um, as someone coming into the space, it's, I guess it's not shocking, but like, here to talk about the fact that your sense of sexuality is also developed in multiple relationships as well. And I've definitely also talked about, again, like, even when people are practicing monogamy, your sense of sexuality is still shaped by multiple relationships.
I think we just don't think about that, right? Like when you're watching the porn, your perspective of what you're seeing is behind the camera lens of a director. That's someone who's telling you a story, right? Or someone who sat next to you and said, I want to tell you an erotic story. That's like forming your sense of self, right?
Um, the, the ROM, the, uh, romantic. Novels that people read, right? Like that's someone who wrote that another human forming your sense of erotic self. I hope people can get a bigger expansive idea to understanding that, like, just like our concept of self is shaped through multiple relationships, your eroticism is too, again, right?
Like, whether you practice with one or multiple, it's all of this going on in your milieu, in your narratives. All of that is there. And then the choice of, you know, the reality is that time and energy are limited. Mm hmm. Yeah, you have to sit with that and not everyone wants to invest in the multiple and I get that man Like I get that, you know, so like at the end of the day everyone's gonna make those choices About how they want to you know invest and I've gotten to such a space of like saturation like I have so many different people It's like saturated and now like figuring out like wow I have lots of different lovers and then how do you kind of like the orbits out of all of those people.
Oof. Fascinating. Fascinating.
[00:41:19] Ren: Yeah. I mean, I, I've been like thinking a lot about the idea of like novelty though, you know, with having like a primary partnership, what I've kind of realized around, you know, where I don't totally fit into. Relationship anarchy. I mean, I guess if you think about relationship anarchy on a spectrum, just like anything else, you know, um, as like a nontraditional like form of relationship.
I like to have a primary partnership that is like more like rooted in not necessarily a platonic. Like a fully platonic relationship, but I think because of my desire for novelty It's just like not possible to have like a long term sexual Dynamic with a primary partner. So, you know just even come coming to terms with With that idea, um, within, you know, the parameters of what feeling saturated means, you know, it's like, okay, I can, I have the capacity for, you know, maybe in a monogamous relationship, maybe you would be having just as much sex with like one person as you are with right now, multiple people.
So it's like, you know, you can have the capacity for. Multiple people in the ways that maybe most people have with one person, but it's just a matter of like switching the perspective on like, what the actual capacity is. Obviously, there's different personalities and like needs and desires that come into play, you know, that maybe you have to like juggle.
But I think, you know, with non monogamy and relationship anarchy, it's like, you can still decide what you have the capacity for. Yeah. Yeah. When it comes to boundaries and when it comes to like people, you know, the level that you want to satisfy someone's needs or Desires like in a micro or macro like level.
Does that make sense?
[00:43:26] Nicole: Yeah, I mean there's so much space again that blank canvas to like really create outside. We're no longer coloring the line so yeah, if you have a Prioritized primary partner where it's like you said like Not primarily playtonic, but like in that sort of space and having novelty out like that's a whole different world Right like a whole blank canvas that you get to create and so I love the expansiveness of that And I think back to some of the research I had found and again this research is so incredibly limited So like there's nothing I mean We can make conclusions from it, but also we can't, you know, because it's like one study and that's not how you make good conclusions about life.
Um, but I've seen studies that say that, you know, I've seen some studies that say polyamorous relationships have better relation, uh, definitely better relationship satisfaction than monogamous couples, just facts. Um, but in terms of sexuality being very close. And then I've seen studies that say swingers actually have the highest sexual satisfaction, but in terms of relational satisfaction, lower, below monogamy, below poly.
Now how I look at this data and I think about it is like, okay, cool. So you could be polyamorous, say you've got two partners, right? Those two partners you spend the rest of your life with, you still hit the same level of potential quote unquote boredom, stagnancy, et cetera, in a world where swingers are like constantly moving through novelty and exploration, but maybe under the paradigm of swinging the calming end.
Conception is that like those people don't have really great relational skills ability to talk about the emotions when they do come up right and that sort of world. And so I think that might maybe explain the relational satisfaction is going lower, but below monogamy and stuff. Right? So, so yeah, I mean, but we really don't know.
I think it makes sense that humans have this desire for novelty. Like when I'm working with monogamous clients, I always try to talk about the worlds of like, you know, your partners changing. Beyond. You're changing. You're at a different point, right? And the novelty of that. But hey, for me, that's not enough.
For me, personally, I want multiple people. And right? So, um, I think just getting into those frames, it's important that we're constantly changing no matter where we're at. And for me, I try to like, let go of this question, like when I was first coming into my queer identity of like, Am I actually a lesbian that's been so fucked up by the patriarchy and I don't like men at all, or anyone who comes from a masculine body, or actually can I just follow my pleasure as it unfolds, right?
There might be years of my life where I have sex with lots of people, years of my life where I have sex with Nobody at all, you know, and just like allowing that unfolding rather than trying to fit into these boxes of these specific things, I think, has been really expansive for me.
[00:46:17] Ren: Well, yeah, because the queer world and especially like the lesbian world can be like just as gatekeepy as anyone else, you know, it's like.
When I identified as a lesbian and I was, you know, a gold star, that's what I was gonna say so much pride in that. And then there was just this night where I was at a concert and this guy like comes up to me and like starts talking to me. And I'm like, Oh, like. For some reason I'm attracted to this person and like I felt very intrigued by You know, oh, I'm just gonna like have sex with this guy.
Like why not? I'm like, you know I don't want to put myself in a box and like not follow this desire like just because I Identify as a lesbian or like, you know, you're not supposed to desire Man because you're a lesbian, you know So I think like breaking out of that mindset is important and like why I feel like the queer world is like You know, just overall, just more like accepting of whatever, you know, it's just like, okay, whatever, whatever, whatever the day brings, you know, like, just see what happens.
That's kind of just how it is for us. Luckily. And I'm very grateful for that opportunity where. You know, I'm reading this book on the daughters of bolitis, which is like, the, the, uh, rise of the lesbian movement. Ah, cool. And like, you know, in the fifties, it's like, okay, you had to wear three items of clothing that matched your gender assigned at birth, or you would get arrested for transvestism.
So it's like. You know, there, there was a lot of like, understandable gatekeeping that happened, you know, where now it's like, we have the opportunity for it to be like flexible and we don't have to say like, Oh, yeah, just because I identify as a lesbian and I had sex with a man doesn't mean that I lose my title as a lesbian or whatever, you know?
[00:48:15] Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. When we're like fighting for such liberation, right? There's a lot of vitriol and like hard, like. Aggressive ways. We're like, no, this is community protect the community. Right? And yeah, as we're moving into more liberation, more expansiveness to like, not have to be so dogmatic, right? It reminds me a lot of, um, my professor, Dr.
Berkey and I have talked about, um, like kink and the, the fight to get kink out of the DSM as a pathology, right? Of like, it's not a pathology. It's not a pathology with consenting adults. And then in that space, also missing the reality that like, Yes, it is not a pathology. Is there chaotic relationships to kink and BDSM?
Yes, right? Drugs, similar thing. Drugs are bad, psychedelics bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. We fight so hard to get out of that. And people can still have a chaotic use to psilocybin, chaotic use to ketamine, like, these are real things, right? And so I think that, yeah, when we're trying to get out of these models, it's so much fighting, like, this is the way, this is who you are, and if you're not here, get out, right?
And as we're getting more liberation, I think we're creating more space for expansive ways of being, and like, a more nuanced understanding to these topics.
[00:49:27] Ren: Right. Yeah, it's funny how, like, you know, coming out of the church and having all these We end up creating more rules to follow, like, without even realizing it.
[00:49:39] Nicole: Totally, and then it makes me think about the relationship anarchists that practice monogamy. Right? Some people might really get into what, how could, what, you know? And I do like the idea of like getting outside of this paradigm of like the monogamy or non monogamy and viewing our world through that of like, oh, okay, like you could practice relationship anarchy and Sexual fidelity, like I have sex with one person, or this closed threple, or this, you know, closed polycule, right?
And that being a practice, but I think a lot of people would get kind of vitriolic about that and say, how dare you have sex with one person? You're, you're repressed, you're this, you're that, right? And it's like, I don't know. There's a lot of people that go through this. They live it out. They have all the people and then say, I don't know.
I like, I like my wand. This is nice. And I think that in our communities, we have to be conscious of not like presuming those people have stuff they haven't unpacked, especially when they've walked it, lived it and, and chose that consciously. So I think that's a similar vein of people like turning up their nose at that stuff.
And I definitely did that at the beginning too, because I felt like, no, like, You're not a part of the movement, you know, and like wanting everyone there, but that's just not gonna be everyone's path, and I think we gotta get past that. I'm speaking to myself and my past versions. Yeah.
[00:50:58] Ren: So what is your, uh, relationship world look like?
[00:51:03] Nicole: Yeah, I would say that, um, I talk about it in orbiting systems. So I have a handful, a beautiful community of different relationships that I see at different orbits and frequencies. I have some people, multiple people that I explore sexual connections with and eroticism with and those orbit at different frequencies.
I would say right now I have like two people that are orbiting on a deeply weekly basis of that. Um, and then someone that's orbiting at like a two week. And then another person's maybe like more monthly, she's a little flighty, she likes to travel a lot, and so I see her when she's in town, you know, so, um, So I do that, but I also have a lot of platonic connections that orbit and are just as meaningful and deep, um, understandings of myself.
And so I try to, like, really allow each relationship to unfold for what it is, but of course I've really, um, in this, this development, like, hit the limitations of time and energy and, like, I've got a wedding coming up and there's a plus one, right? And you, damn, you know, what do you do? And those sorts of things and, um, just the complexities of you can have all these beautiful relationships and a very kitchen table dynamic.
We all rock climb on Sunday, right? But, The realities of when you're co creating space, um, or co sharing space, the group psychology dynamics are different than one on one time, right? And so if I'm spend, when you hit the limitation of your time and energy, sure, you can get all your partners together for the kitchen table, but when are you doing the one on one?
And for me, that feels meaningful to create space for the one on one too. Um, but yeah, you just really hit that time and energy limitation real fast.
[00:52:44] Ren: Right, right. So, like, within, like, that, you feel like You are like, would you say you're more like solo or you just like, don't have a hierarchy or like, you know,
[00:52:58] Nicole: yeah, I would say I'm a relationship anarchist.
And I would say that I practice, you know, because yeah, hierarchy is such a complex word. People are so against it. And so then what I'm hearing in the community is this word of like prioritization. And I think that's where I like the ideas of the orbits, right? Like, yeah. When I have an orbiting partner, I would say maybe the closest orbiting partner.
This is someone I talk to every day. I see, you know, every other day. Like, the reality is that person's orbiting me at a much closer rate. So, yeah, if they call and need me, they're orbiting at a much closer rate than the friend that I see once a month. And that's A reality, in my opinion, of any form of attachment.
And so sure, we don't have to use the word hierarchy. How close does that get? Fun conversation there, right? Just in terms of like the realities of your. Limited time and energy, but I feel like that's kind of where the community is going in terms of like, this is a prioritized partner. Um, yeah.
[00:53:55] Ren: So you still use the word partner?
Yeah. Like with some people, like you, you have like a, you know, like the whole like DTR, like. Totally. Where you claim the word partners together, you know?
[00:54:10] Nicole: Yeah, I do. I think it's fun. I think that it's political when I say, Oh, this is one of my partners. I have multiple. I find that to be political rather than just friend.
Um, not that friend can't be important. Again, that's like, We all get the power to choose these words and what they mean to us. One of my partners likes to call me, uh, their girlfriend, right? And I call them, uh, my boyfriend, which is a word that I really hadn't used in a long time, but it means something to them.
And I'm happy to be in that world with them. Um, and. For me, yeah, the words partner, I can have, um, platonic partners, right? I think for me, that word means something to me personally, and it's going to mean something to them and, and, and you too, dear listener who's tuning in. Right. And I think we should have the autonomy to create the language that feels authentic to us.
And so if someone doesn't want to use partner and use friend, that's beautiful. For me, it feels intentional to have these. Words that signal something different than, um, my co workers, then my, um, community members in my climbing space that are my friends, um, that I don't orbit as closely, you know, so for me, I like having the language to kind of, um.
Um, Indicate where these people are at in terms of their presence in my life,
[00:55:27] Ren: right? Yeah, that makes sense
[00:55:29] Nicole: Yeah,
[00:55:30] Ren: I think like, you know with how I feel intrigued about relationship anarchy It's like cool to hear things like that because it's like I have kind of had this idea in my head that like You wouldn't even say someone was your partner not you but just like someone that's a Anarchist, you know, like, you know, I don't I don't You know, take responsibility for anyone like I don't, you know, have like commitments and like, I think that's where I, I guess, has where I felt hasn't hesitancy around the idea of relationship anarchy where.
you know, having a conversation like this, you know, brings me closer to the idea of relationship anarchy because it's like, I still being polyamorous, like love the idea of, of like depth and love and connection and like responsibility and commitment. And like, you know, that can look however you want it to, you know, my satellite.
Partner is someone that I also see like once a month and right now is living in Paris for a year And so like, you know, it's like we coming out in and out of each other's lives, but there's still like a consistency to it
[00:56:47] Nicole: Mm hmm
[00:56:48] Ren: that feels important and like something that I feel like dedicated to but You know, we didn't necessarily even talk about the title of being partners, like, until more recently, where my primary partnership, you know, we had much more communication around, like, the intentionality of our partnership to look like, you know, yeah, like, I like hearing your.
Universe.
[00:57:16] Nicole: Yeah, I'm happy to share it and I'm happy that it like creates more space for the concepts, because I think that I was about to say I'm no expert and that's true. I did a dissertation on it. I'm still exploring it, you know, I'm just a human in it, you know. But , you know, like, I don't know, expert's a weird word.
Anyhow, if I know anything about relationship anarchy, it's about dismantling power dynamics. And the way that that has, IM, um, been. So deeply infiltrated into our practice of relationship. It's about examining the relationship escalator. There's nothing wrong with taking it, right? Question is, have you examined it and considered the other ways of relating?
Um, and so I, for me, I think it's this practice of. Use the language that feels authentic to you, create the worlds that feel authentic to you, and be conscious of the power dynamics and how they're, um, constantly in our lives. And for me, that's why I call it a practice. There is no end point to relationship anarchy, right, where I, like, totally free of patriarchy, totally free of racism, totally free of, um, all of the isms, right, that impact the ways I show up in my community.
Because really, relationship anarchy is about community, not even who I'm dating, right? It's like, am I showing up? for my community. Truly. Um, so I, I hope that I can be a part of like changing the narratives of this, like no partner, no commitments, no depth, because it seems like that's really actually very off of the realities of our lived experience.
[00:58:51] Ren: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. The power dynamic aspect is important, I think. And that's something that I definitely, definitely like. Like strive towards breaking up like within my partnerships and like, you know, it can be, I feel like more difficult in a primary partnership because the idea of couple privilege, you know, like me and my primary have been working around like the idea of consent in small ways, like.
Because we live together, like, you know, just not assuming that I'm, like, available to have a conversation right now, you know, or like, assuming that we're gonna have dinner together tonight, you know, so we have found little ways, like, by having, like, a shared calendar where, like, you know, okay, like, it looks like you're not doing anything tonight.
Hey, do you, like, are you available to hang out? Tonight and just like building that into the relationship instead of just like expecting that because we live together because we're primaries that I'm not doing anything else. And like, with the power dynamic, you know, we're not prioritizing, like, our relationship over our friendships or like platonic relationships or secondary relationships or whatever.
Yeah, I guess I think that I, you know, I'm, I, through conversations like this, I, I'm realizing more of how I am experiencing relationship anarchy in small ways like that.
[01:00:20] Nicole: Yeah, that's definitely what I was thinking about just in terms of like self governance, right? And like, yeah, checking in with intention and not presuming ownership over your partner, right?
That's so powerful. And I immediately was making me think about eroticism and the ways that, you know, like Esther Perel had talked about how desire is wanting. Right. And so when you make the assumption that my partner is already there, they're all going to be there for that dinner. I already have them.
There is no space for the desire, the longing, the wanting. And so when you can come back to that, like, Oh, my partner is a separate person. I can definitely check in with them. Right. And then that creating the intentionality and the desire for them through that sort of spacing. Yeah, definitely in terms of what you were talking about of like prioritizing our platonic connections because again that comes back to the concepts of community like relationship anarchy being absolutely not about who you fuck, right?
It's about this like larger community structure and how am I holding all of that so then hence the values of like the platonic connections and all of that and like And like holding that as a way to like dismantle the larger systems, right? The larger systems that have put us into nuclear families that have broken us up and like bringing us back into that.
That's all there and that's something that people can practice in solo poly, in monogamy, in polyamory. Like those value systems I think are very possible in all those different orientations when it's done with intentionality.
[01:01:50] Ren: Right, for sure. Yeah, Esther Perel. Are you talking about mating in captivity?
[01:01:58] Nicole: Yeah, for sure.
[01:01:59] Ren: Yeah, awesome book. Yeah, I, we just actually did a course with her, um, called Turning Conflict Into Connection.
[01:02:06] Nicole: Ooh.
[01:02:07] Ren: Which was really powerful. Um.
[01:02:09] Nicole: It's probably not about BDSM and fun conflict, right? Unfortunately, she doesn't seem to hit on that.
[01:02:16] Ren: It could be. But yeah, her and Dan Savage also just like did this like joint talk that we listened to as well, which was, but, but yeah, I think like, yeah, relationship anarchy.
It's definitely like, um, Something that I'm excited to continue learning about, that's for sure.
[01:02:36] Nicole: Absolutely. Well, it's been such a joy to unpack all of this with you, and to learn more about your life, and for you to hold space for mine. So, I really appreciate that, and I want to take a moment for both of us to take a deep breath together.
And then I want to check in and see if there's anything else that you want to share with the listeners. Otherwise, I can guide us towards a closing question.
[01:03:06] Ren: Um, yeah, I just want to say, like, The idea of checking in, just continue checking in with yourself every day about who you are and what you want and let it lead you down the path and like really, you never know what's gonna happen.
Like, just stay open and allow for space and stay curious. I think that's the most important. Stay curious.
[01:03:31] Nicole: Absolutely. I love that. So, so important. Well, if it feels good to you, I'll guide us towards our closing question. Yeah, let's do it. Okay. So the one question that I ask everyone on the podcast is What is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
[01:03:51] Ren: More normal. Yeah, the idea of expressing your wants and desires You know like even as simple as that like most people don't find that as normal Like I'll go on dates and they're like, oh, no one's ever asked me that before I'm like what? Just like Being able to think about it like normalizing like thinking about what you want for your life or like Thinking about what you want over what someone else wants.
[01:04:28] Nicole: Yep, and then feeling into that That's the fun one too. I love to like Okay, I have this idea, and then how does it feel in my body? Do I feel that tightness? Do I feel an openness? Like, what is that bringing up for me when I think about that future and trying to connect to the wisdom of my body that lives in this present moment when often times my head goes to the past or the future.
The body is like right here materially. Complex though when we're holding trauma and how that impacts that. You know, I'm definitely hold that as a therapist and how that impacts our ability, right? Because sometimes you talk about stuff and it makes you anxious because it's fast stuff But for the most part when we're here like being able to actually like check in like oh How does this feel in my body when I think about that future?
That's a power powerful practice
[01:05:16] Ren: Yeah, for sure. But also, like, you know, not trying to aim for, like, a constant sense of, like, future already, you know, like, but yeah, staying present, differentiating between, yeah, trauma responses is definitely important and, like, tough work, but. Yeah. Normalizing, uh, a world without social media.
[01:05:47] Nicole: Yeah. Totally. You got off the drug. We're all still suffering with, uh, well, it's been such a joy. Thank you for joining us today on the podcast and being so vulnerable with all of us today.
[01:06:00] Ren: Yeah, thanks for having me.
[01:06:03] Nicole: Is there anywhere you want to plug in terms of having the listeners connect with you and your work?
[01:06:08] Ren: Uh, feel free to reach out at D A U R I A L A at yahoo. com.
[01:06:16] Nicole: Great. Thank you for joining us today. It's been such a pleasure. You're welcome. If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcasts. And head on over to ModernAnarchyPodcast. com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode.
I want to thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
コメント