191. Relationship Anarchy and the Romance Myth with Dean Spade

Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole. On today's episode, we are diving back into the archives of modern anarchy

 to re release an episode with Dean Spade. Hello dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice, supporting individuals in crafting Intimate relationships, dear listener. Traditionally, I have taken this week off from producing an episode of the podcast in honor of the holidays, in honor of rest as something that is truly revolutionary and political, and so this year I thought I would re release one of my most played episodes, my conversation with I'll Dean Spade about relationship anarchy.

When we recorded this, I had just finished writing my literature review for my dissertation on relationship anarchy, and I was beaming full of ideas and concepts and thoughts and, ugh, it was just so fun to bounce ideas off with Dean and to explore the praxis of relationship anarchy and It's interesting to re release an episode, right?

This is, uh, episode 84, and, dear listener, It's hard to go back to your old self, right? We grow, we change so much. It's been a couple of years now, and Woo, I re listened to the intro of episode 84, and I swear, dear listener, I just didn't even take a breath. I was just Running, running, running, running, running, running, running, running, uh, as I discussed the episode, and so, it's cool, you know, I Study.

Psychology and there is a book, um, in a different voice, which is all about the feminist exploration of how the voice changes depending on who you're in relationship with and your psychology, of course, right? And so in the time since this episode's recording, and now there's been a lot of transformation in my voice.

I can definitely take a deep breath. And speak much slower to you this time around. Uh, yeah, you grow and you expand. And, uh, yeah, it's tender and feels vulnerable to reshare an episode that is a couple of years old with you now. But, you know, that's a part of the journey. That's a part of the expansion.

And there's some really good concepts in here that I was just starting to explore. And I'm still exploring today and inspired by, and so, Dear listener, I hope you really enjoy diving back into this episode with Dean Spade and exploring relationship anarchy together.

Dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources at ModernAnarchyPodcast. com, linked in the show notes below. And I want to say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.

So thank you. If you want to join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, then you can head on over to patreon. com slash modern anarchy podcast, also linked in the show notes below. And with that, dear listener, please know that I'm sending you all my love and Let's tune in to today's episode.

Is there anywhere you want to start this conversation or just dive into it? Anywhere you want to start. Okay. Well then how would you introduce yourself first before we get into all the fun, juicy conversations?

Dean Spade: Yeah. Uh, I live in Seattle. I, um, my day, day job, paid job is that I'm a professor. Um, and my life work is about, um, You know, this question of, like, how do people make transformative change and what are the obstacles to get in the way and what are the counter those are opposition.

And so I spent a lot of my time, like, to studying, like, what social movements have done and are doing, and then being part of social movements to and police prisons, borders, patriarchy war, et cetera.

Nicole: Yeah, and I know we were talking a little bit earlier about how all of that. relates to the new book that you're writing coming out.

Could you tell me more about that?

Dean Spade: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, for probably like seven years, I've been working on what I first thought was one big book that was just kind of like related to how, you know, being in movements, you know, Myself for the last 25 years, you know, you kind of see, um, like these patterns, like this kind of conflicts we get into it again and again, the way as we sort of wreck ourselves, like the kinds of like, you know, ranging from people overworking people struggling with accountability between each other within organizations, uh, organizations, like, breaking down because people have.

Romantic relationships that are like, you know, that blow up in these ways or are unethical in their dating practices with each other, like kind of the same problems over and over again. So, for me, navigating that stuff on my own, like, I've also spent the last 25 or 30 years, like, trying to, you know. Work on myself trying to live my values trying to figure out why I do weird sideways stuff or why I end up in weird Difficult conflicts or what's gone on in my own dating life or in my own relationship with collaborators And so I wanted to write something that was kind of like for people Starting with that stuff who also feel really alienated by like the general self help literature Which is like in like self help books that whole literature is like really like capitalist Racist is heteronormative.

It's, you know, focused on monogamy is often like, get rich and skinny in 30 days. Like, that's kind of its promise. And so a lot is lost. Like, there's, I can't, a lot of the things, a lot of the tools I've tried to use and gotten something out of, I can't actually recommend to others because they're just like, so fraught.

Um, and so basically the project is, was like, Okay. Could I capture some of the things I think are useful and interesting, but put them in a more radical framework? Like, can we talk about how we overwork in our movement orgs, but acknowledge that that capitalism, white supremacy and ableism are, are surrounding that?

That's not just because, like, we're bad workaholics at an individual level, or can we talk about the dynamics around, like, romance and sex and the romance myth in our lives in a way that actually is feminist and, like, you know, acknowledges this is structural. And so, so, yeah, basically, I, I'm working on that.

Project for a while, and it became so long that it's actually multiple books now. And the 1st 1 that I kind of broke off the 1st chunk that I broke off that I think will be in the world 1st is about, like, sex, dating, romance, friendship, like, some of those common patterns that we see in ourselves and our friends and like, some, like, Tools that can be useful for dealing with them and I've done a couple of webinars with a little bit of the content in the last couple of years with, um, fireweed collective and they're online that they both have like a theme around the romance with like, titles around that.

And 1 of them is about, like, the cycle of romance, like, the way in which, like, we meet people and then we, like, the complex things that happen that cause us to kind of idealize and project upon them that they're like, going to basically meet our unmet childhood. Desire for love and recognition. And then the ways in which as we advance people, we tend to like, it can tends to shift.

And then we like, feel a lot of like, um, you know, we're not aware of this. We feel like like blatant criticism towards people. So just kind of the typical cycle of like romance followed by conflicts that happens again and again in people's dating lives. And that, and that I also think you can have that in a friendship or with an organization and the ways in which when we're not conscious of the pattern.

We can really like, wreak a lot of havoc, havoc on each other and, and on groups we're in because it's like, you're the best thing in the world. And then later on, like, you're the worst thing. You're my enemy. Um, so, yeah, so that's just like one example of, uh, like, you know, one of the small ideas in the book that I made that into a webinar, I think around Valentine's Day last year for 2022 for, for fireweed.

Um, but yeah, that project is, I think, yeah, relevant to, to your podcast themes.

Nicole: Yes, absolutely, because I think part of what you were talking about was the fact that this doesn't just happen in our romantic relationships, right? We have multiple relationships in our lives, and these same patterns can play out in and across all of them.

Right? And what I'm hearing is like this, you know, idealization of a partner of a company of any sort of entity, and not really taking in the full complexities of what it means to be human and to be connected.

Dean Spade: Yeah, I mean, I think that it's true that a lot of these patterns we can play out in any relationship, but it is also fascinating to me that a lot of people I know who are like really right on in the world are not right on in their dating and sexual practices.

Like, there is something interesting about how it gets us where we live, and we are particularly possibly reactive or in principle, like people who are like, Otherwise, able to live their principles a little bit more. And so that's like, I think that 1 of the questions that that mobilizes the book. It's like, what is it that happens to us where we kind of like, you know, where you're like, love your friend and you're like, God's so amazing.

They're so amazing. The work we do together and then wow, the way they talk to their day or like, the choices they just made about how they ended that relationship or the ways that they are. Doing their flirting in this group we're all in that are really seem like, you know, not, uh, quite like good for the group dynamics or, or whatever.

I think that there's something interesting about, uh, what sex, love and dating gets at in our deepest, um, like wounds that, uh, requires I just, to me, I think that one of the ways to talk about in the book is just like, this is just like, if you're going to have like a mushroom trip, like you gotta be like, okay, I'm gonna take these mushrooms.

I shouldn't drive the car. You know, I, maybe I shouldn't, Cut things with sharp knives. Like what, you know, like we need like to like a care, like we need to like do some care, like we've been given a pretty bad, bad set of scripts from the culture about how to do sex, love, and dating. And we, most of us have different kinds of damage from our family or caregiving experience that are somehow showing up.

So like, what do I want to study? Who have, what kind of support system do I want to have? Like, how do I want to like rethink and relearn? And also like when I actually. Launch into something like, you know, falling in love or initiating a new sexual relationship or going into like, you know, kind of a sex haze, which a lot of us have that experience when we start like an intense new sexual or kink relationship.

Like, how am I gonna like, you know, take care of myself and like figure out like what would my sober self say would be good boundaries before I go on this bender, which is totally fun and beautiful and creative and interesting and worth doing. But like, is there anything I want to have in place? Like, Hey Dean, don't forget to sleep sometimes or Make sure you stay in touch with your friends and don't get isolated.

Or, you know, these are, I'm going to, I could be, I'm going to have this curfew or I'm going to like kind of limit how often I see this person. So it doesn't become my whole life or like, whatever, like based on what I've noticed, I do that kind of goes sideways, you know, just thinking about like this stuff as actually, you know, pretty dangerous.

Like the person most likely to kill you is someone you date. Like there's, there's, this is, It's, you know, it's heavy.

Um, and so just being like, I probably, everybody acts pretty weird in this realm. I probably do too. What, what am I willing to notice about that? What am I, how frank am I willing to be about that?

What kind of support system do I need?

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you related it back to To, you know, mushrooms and then the setting, right? I think we forget how much of a drug love really can be right? Like, all of the tons of neuro chemicals that are going through your body that do put you in a different head space.

I mean, like, this is an altering of our biological physiological chemistry. So, yes, and I think. It's so hard when there aren't narratives of how to do this. So you fall in love with someone and all of a sudden you're projecting out a whole life ahead of you. And what that life is going to look like is based on the models that we see in society and the media, all these pieces, and to try and construct a different world is so difficult.

When you don't have an example of how to do that, what sort of things do you need to do to protect that dream life that you're trying to build that's in line with your values? Is it? It's tricky.

Dean Spade: Yeah. And what do you even want? I mean, I think this is very similar to like, from my experience of being trans is that like, I couldn't have become like a queer and trans person if there weren't other queer and trans people.

So I could like to create space by just being there, like freaky, amazing, gorgeous selves where I was like, Oh my God, I can be that weird way. I can be that weird. Like we, we were social beings, like we need each other. And so I think that's similar with relationships, like being able to find out that there are other ways to have experience of family or that, or that you can, you can have like a very intense love relationship with somebody and decide not to blend along with your friends or family.

You can decide not to like, you don't, you know, you can decide you never want to live with anybody. You can live with someone and then decide you don't want to live together anymore. And it doesn't mean you're deescalating your relationship or just like these, you know, you can, you can really, really, really care.

Love somebody without being monogamous with these basic ideas that are just like, actually really radical. And people have just been told, you know, the relationship escalated people and told, like, these are the markers of connection. And if you're not into them, if that doesn't feel right to you, you can be so easily peer pressured to do that because your lover can be like.

If you really love me, you do these things. Look at our entire society says so. And all of your friends agree. If you really love them, you do these things like, yeah, so we need those containers so much. You know, I, uh, I live with, like, in a square family structure where I have, like, these two, like, non blood sisters, my, who are like a couple, and they have these two kids are my nephews.

And we plan this whole family structure together. And we all live together, me and my boyfriend and them. And, um, And that, even that, like so many people I meet are just like, Oh my God, that's what I want. I want to like, not be a parent, but live with kids and, or I want to be able to be a parent, but have there be a lot of adults.

I don't have to be, you know, um, overburdened in the way parenting is in like the nuclear family in our society, which even most queer people end up falling into, like just having each other as models, like just having, I noticed when I, when people find out how we live, like that, it's like a relief to them that there might even be that option because they don't, haven't actually met anyone who's doing it.

Even if, you know, They may be kind of wanted or thought of it, you know, like, that's just a basic example and I think it's even more complex when you get into like, how terrified people are of jealousy and jealousy. Change that no relationships are permanent, like, you know, with all the levels of talking about open relationships and yes.

Nicole: Yes, absolutely. I feel like part of this is the fact that we are lacking community so much. So, in our relational worlds, at least where we're at currently with the, you know, patriarchal influences that created marriage property, the idea of the nuclear family, and then that sort of system and we're starting to see how that's not working.

Right? And so now we're in this state of trying to find like, how to relate and create community in a way that allows us to be free and all of our wondrous selves. But you're so right. There aren't examples for how to do that. I would love if you could talk to me then a little bit about, like, what you do and how you did that, right?

If this is something that people really find to be inspiring and a model, I'd love to share that in the space.

Dean Spade: Yeah. I mean, I think some of the things that are most important for me in my own practice, like friendship is the most important thing in my life. Like I, I personally believe that friendship is like the most liberated relational space in our society because Love and family relationship like sexual love and family relationships are so fraught like are just so weighted and And people are so reactive in them and friendship is the place where I found Myself most likely be able to give and receive like honest feedback and really grow like have friends be like Hey, that's what you're doing isn't working or it's affecting me in this way and actually here I've been change like I just noticed that again and again and that also is happening to me and family and sex and dating relationships, but I really think that friendship is like also like kind of a weird.

Subversive thing in our society, like the kind of like straight conservative culture that I grew up around in rural Virginia in the 80s was like, I thought there was an idea that like, it was almost like you had friends in high school and then you got married and then you hung out with your spouse and their blood family and your blood family.

And that was it forever. Like, friendship was almost like a sign of immaturity. Like, people that like, a lot of, and I think in general, there's lots of statistics about how isolated people are, Are in the US and how most people have like a single confidant and people talk about like, you know, inside a lot of people are like stuck in a community.

That's just them and their data that they have a date. Like, and that's just so unhealthy and brutal. So, for me, like, you know, this has been a conflict in a lot of my relationships. Like, I've had, um, you know, as I mentioned, I mean, this, like, we're family includes other people as well. So if I live with, and I've always prioritized, you know, ever since, you know, we've been doing this since our 20s, you know, um, these kids are now teenagers and we, you know, Although we didn't always live together and there's enough way to travel to be together.

And so I spent all my, you know, any vacation time I had from my job or whatever, I always was going to see these people and be in this group. And I had dates who were like, wait, I'm your boyfriend. Why, why are, why aren't you spending all your vacation time with me? And I'm like, because this is what I do.

Like, this is like, this is, My priority and just, you know, having even that conflict around, like, like, yeah, I don't boyfriend isn't, isn't more important to me than I have many commitments. And, like, maybe if certain programs will be invited to be part of that as well. But, like, that's not like, you know, just the assumption that, like, your date will be your number 1 and only and you need to prove all the time that they're more important by ditching your friends or whatever, as a friend is like a lesser thing, which, for me, it's been like center also, because I, you know, you know, haven't had a lot of blood family and was a foster kid and all these things.

Like friendship is like literally been my lifeline.

Um, so I think that's one big part of my practice. One thing I'll say about like my open relationship practice that I think has been a really useful learning is like, In general, I've been, I've been like not into like rules. Like I've noticed how people use like a lot of rules to control each other and to criticize each other.

Like, you know, to be like, like rules can be a space in which inevitably people do some small violation and then it's like a chance for me to take out all of my jealousy and control issues by being like, you are one minute late. You know what I mean? Like the way that I practice is not rules centered.

Although, like, there's a couple, like, guidelines or things that I, like, that are on, on deck with me with some people or whatever that we prefer. And I think one thing that has been a really beautiful practice for me has just been, like, the point of these guidelines is not that they're rules. So like, yeah, it's okay if you mess it up, it's okay if you, if you mess, if you mess it up, it means that either it doesn't work for you or like, Oh, something went on.

Like, it's not about, no, it's never about anyone getting in trouble. I'll give an example, which is that, like, I told my boyfriend, I would. I was going to go make, I was having a phone call with another lover and I was going to come back and be like, meet him in bed by 1130. And then I stayed on the phone until midnight.

And. He was like, Oh, that was kind of bummer. I was like, yeah, that was a bummer. Like I don't need to do that. And I absolutely don't need to do that. But there was like, there's no, like, it wasn't like a vehicle for him to like, feel everything that's hard about that he might ever feel about being in an open relationship.

You know what I mean? It's just like, or like, it's like we both, or there was a time in which there was something around one of our guidelines that was like a little, like he did something that was like a little unclear around it and it was so, it felt so good to be like, Oh yeah, that's great. I don't care.

That's great. Like just, it's actually the pleasure is in, you know, the frame I like to use as a contest of generosity. Like the pleasure is in like, like, like accepting, allowing, being like, do I need to be injured by this?

And if I do feel, if I am feeling, if I am struggling with jealousy or I'm struggling to say like, Oh, I wish I had some more time with you or something like that.

Like, like, let me take, let me like take, take that directly instead of taking that out sideways. Um, I just think this is big just because I just noticed a lot of people in open relationships like racking up resentments and stories and like, it's, you know, you do, we do need to figure out how to be trustworthy to each other.

That is a real thing. Trustworthiness is like a skill. We need that in all areas of our lives. So figuring out like, Hey, am I downplaying stuff? Am I misleading anyone? Am I, you know, people do that stuff. And like coming to, I've been a person who has done that in my life. So to be able to figure out, wait.

When, when am I downplaying? What am I downplaying? Cause I feel shame. What's going on with that shame? Do I need to talk to anybody to a friend about that shame? Do I need to talk to my lover about that shame? Like figuring out why I'm downplaying or where, why I'm doing anything deceptive. These are very important things.

So we need to become trustworthy, but we also like, and if we really think the other person is trustworthy, we got to like work that out. Maybe we shouldn't be doing this with them. Or maybe we need a different set of boundaries to protect us from what about that feels unsafe, but like the other pieces being like trusting and being generous, like actually.

If I really believe in my own sexual freedom and the other person's and I believe that they're on a path and their own, like, sexual expression and healing that is separate from mine. And that is like, beautiful and gets to develop. Like, I need to not live in judgment and like, not be looking for ways to get them in trouble.

I just noticed this a lot. And I think that in other times of my life, I struggled with, like. Expressing my jealousy by kind of like getting feeling like I wanted to find a way. Someone else has done something wrong.

Nicole: Sure. Which I think makes sense. If you feel, you know, your partner might feel insecure in that dynamic, right?

Of you're talking to a lover on the phone. And then here is this time where you said you were going to be back at 1130. You came back at 12. And if we don't feel secure enough in our relationship at that point, you say. You know, I mean, these thoughts don't come through consciously. I feel like these are the unconscious thoughts that are running through that.

Maybe we don't even realize of like, well, clearly, I'm not important to them. So they don't really care about me. Clearly. That other person is way more important. And so then when you come back into the room, they say, well, why'd you do that? And using that rule against you as a way to kind of say, I feel insecure that you spent that time with that person.

But the thing is, like. Yeah. It takes, I think, the emotional awareness to recognize that feeling, then to pause and not to lash out through like passive aggression, whatever sort of tactics afterwards and say like, Hey, I feel insecure because you said you'd be back by 1130 and it took more time. And I feel like I'm not important to your world.

Can we like, talk about that? So we come together to feel more secure in that. And I think like, if you don't have those processes and that awareness,

Insecure in some ways, when you start adding more people, like, that is a reality like, where, when you start to share to, like, feel secure and that takes, like, an extra level of. Communication vulnerability about how you're feeling in so many pieces. So I think it is It's a lot of work. I feel like anyone who doesn't think that open relationships are a lot of work are misunderstanding what it means to truly, really relate and be vulnerable with other people.

Dean Spade: Yeah. I mean, I think the thing you just described, you know, it's like come back in the room and the person's like, Hey, that didn't feel good that you're half an hour late. Like, I just think most people actually don't have any practice with forgiveness. I actually think it's incredibly rare in our society.

People mostly build stories about each other, your coworker, family member. People are like, Had to haven't had the experience of being like, most people are sort of not good at apologizing. So like it all comes together. You know, that's like a really like the real question of like, can someone say, Hey, sorry, I did that.

And can I let it go? Or am I holding on to it and looking for evidence of a pattern and making a pattern about it? Right. The thing about what you said about how, you know, when you are open and you're sharing, it is more insecure. Like, I think there's something really deep about that. Like that, that desire To control like that desire to, to own my partner or date or whatever lover to like, it's so intense, like deep capitalist white supremacy stuff.

And it's like, and it's really, you know, it really lives in me. I feel that. And I, and, and for me it was a decision like, cause I've been in and out of monogamy at different points in my life. And it was a really big decision to just be like, Would I rather be uncomfortable in which way, like both things are a ton of work and both things are uncomfortable.

So I would rather be, would I rather be uncomfortable, um, kind of knowing that we're like, to some degree, like limiting our sexuality. And I'm, like, limiting some of the things that I'm curious about or want to express or learn or heal and that in order to have, like, kind of the peace of not having to, in my case, like, feel jealous and or feel like I often also have feelings of, like, am I doing something wrong?

Am I doing something wrong? Am I doing something wrong around being in a relationship? Like, I just, like, assume I'm doing something wrong, but I'm having a good time or whatever, you know, same stuff. I mean, I'm on this journey. planet to like be alive. I do tons of things that are uncomfortable, right? Like I, I'm, I'm trans in the world.

I'm radical, like whatever. I take, I take certain risks. I've chosen to take for a really long time. I've chosen to, to live more instead of be like safer, but in a smaller box. And it just, it's like, not to say that it's always pleasant. And I, and I will say too, that like, You, you mentioned like emotional awareness as being like part of it, like, I definitely think that like that is kind of the missing piece that leads to so much conflict in our world and such relational problems.

But like, to me. You know, I have a strong relationship to meditation and the whole experience of what meditating is in my, in my experience is like just being able to like notice what's going on. Like, Hey, look what's going on. Like I'm having this reaction, having this kind of thought and like learning to do that more and more.

And so there's like that like millimeter of critical distance between me and my emotion. So I'm not just like, I just had a feeling of jealousy. Now I need to yell at you. It's like, Oh look, a feeling of jealousy just went by. Do I need a hug? Like I can, can I take care of this? Can I take care of myself in whatever feeling comes up?

Not just be the feeling, um, and that I just think, like, in a society in which people are super distracted, have almost no time to reflect or no time in solitude. Everyone's like. In, you know, in their phones every minute that they're not actually at work or, you know, caring for someone, like, there's not a lot of people are not getting a chance to, like.

Have that kind of relationship to when emotions pop up, like it's said, like, let me get away from this by looking at Instagram or, you know, using a substance or whatever we all shopping, whatever we all do to kind of get away from ourselves, which is now always available. And I worry about about like, how hard that makes challenging radical practices like being in relationships.

Nicole: Yes, yes, 100%. I am so with you. And I agree that a lot of this ties back to mindfulness, that ability to have enough space from the emotion, recognize that we're not our emotions and that we have the autonomy to decide how we want to show up, not invalidate the emotions, right? Like, we never like ignore them.

I think it's important to remember that these emotions that are coming up are pointing to something that you need. Or want and like, taking that moment to like, sit with them of like, okay, like, what is this emotion pointing me to that I'm creating? Like you said, do I need a hug? Do I need reassurance in this connection here?

And I think another thing that at least I have struggled with was like, this feeling that my most authentic self is actually Feeling into those emotions, like the sense of like romance and relating that like the way to show up is to actually like when that comes up, feel it, share it, like all of that sort of stuff.

And like, even taking a step back from that to recognize that, like, letting go of that full, like, emotions that come, like, come up, like, that is not authentic relating. I think authentic relating mindfulness. awareness of our thoughts and choosing how we want to show up in relationships in a way that doesn't invalidate our feelings and it allows for more connection.

Dean Spade: Yeah. I seem to always date people who don't experience jealousy and I do experience a lot of jealousy and it's really easy for me to just be like, I'm a bad person. You know what I mean? Like I'm, I'm wounded. I'm flawed. I'm damaged. You know, I have these issues from my childhood, whatever. And my practice, of course, is just to be like, yeah, Dean, you may always experience jealousy.

Did you? Act like a dick to anyone. No, that's fine. Like I, it's like my job is just to not act it out. And I don't, I think I actually think I, I, I feel like I'm doing a pretty good job of like, not pointing it at people and instead either, you know, taking care of myself or. Seeing what, what helps me and relieves that by getting support from a friend or going swimming or whatever it seems to do, or sometimes talking to the person about it if it's like, hey, I want this kind of reassurance, but like, it's my responsibility.

It's my feeling. It's my wound. And it's like, and to just be like, kind to myself about it. Because if I'm, I think when, when you try to suppress feelings, they do come out sideways. And that's when you're like, giving someone some kind of like, yeah, Unnecessary criticism or being withdrawn or numbing out or whatever.

And I think like, you know, I want to like be actively in these things. And if I choose to do it this way, this includes the, this set of feelings and that I hope is a healing opportunity. And I have seen over time that by like choosing to approach it with this kind of compassion and care and like kind of experimentalism has reduced it.

Yeah. Which is like amazing. Like I didn't, I wasn't sure that was possible, you know.

Nicole: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And then I think that's the security that can come through open relating, right? Like it, it is inherently insecure, I think, because of the malleability of the dynamics and the flow that is inherent to them.

But I think once you're doing that practice of, you know. You know, acknowledging where you're coming from, acknowledging the support that you can get from other people like that inherently becomes really secure in this beautiful, like, flowing way that I really find. Yeah, beautiful.

Dean Spade: Yeah, I mean, the thing you're saying too about, like, the fact that it's like, less secure because it can change, like, there's something about that, that I think I often am just like, yeah, this is reality.

Like, if I. If the people I date, we're all dating other people or whenever we, like, it's possible that like, I'll be dating you and you'll meet someone and they're really compelling to you. And I see less of you like that actually may happen. You may even be like, decide to focus on them in such a way that we don't see each other anymore.

Also a, even if you're in monogamy, the relationships can end. We've all done that. Um, relationships can end period. They can, things change, everything changes. So you can't stop change. But also for me, this like politically, this is about this relationship where like, The state form itself wants us to have relationships that are pretend to be permanent because the state form itself pretends to be permanent like the idea of the nation state is that it is permanent even of course, you know, all countries start and end, but the story about permanence and that we should affix ourselves through marriage to the state, and that we should, you know, it's the whole fairy tale of like happily ever after like that there should be kind of like an unchanging and this is also I think they're like romance books and stuff all of them are like It's like, it's, it's going to be like early romance and all of this hotness.

And it's going to be that way forever between these two people. People find a lot of disappointment. It's very painful because disappointing. And, you know, there's lots of conflict about that. So like, what if instead we actually noticed the reality, which is that everything constantly changes and nothing is permanent, especially in humans, human emotions, human relationships.

And we were like, wow, I am on this ride. I just am. I don't get to not be on this ride where everything changes. So I'm going to like, find out what there is for me on this ride. Like, wow, like, what do I learn by the fact that I get to change? I don't have to pretend I'm only attracted to the one person I ever, you know, since we met, I felt the same way.

Cause I'm, cause actually that's not how it is. Or I don't have to pretend that. Nothing has shifted and grown. And also that can mean that things can deepen or widen. Like, it's not, it's not only loss that you're not always in whatever it was when you first started, you know, like, I think there's a, I was talking to one of the people from fire.

We collected after my romance with webinar and the person was saying that they feel like. Part of the romance myth is that, that like relationships are not allowed to mature. That like, it's supposed to always be just like it was in the first, you know, year or what, however long that period is for people.

And that, that's so interesting. You know what I mean? That it's kind of like a stunted development when of course, and I think part of what's in like my, my book that I'm writing, that I'm finishing now, you know, a lot of it too is like, okay, how can I act responsibly given what an intense drug that early period is?

Like, how can we also be? Recognizing the different phases have different qualities and that we may need to notice where unethical behavior might be likely to emerge,

um, you know, at times in some of those phases, you know, like what, how people treat, or if people go into resentment and then they're unethical towards their date or they go into contempt or, you know, whatever, but also certainly in the period of like falling in love, many people, you know, ditch their friends and don't show up to their activist obligations and, you know, do somewhere, you know, or like if they're in a relationship, like are really unethical to their other dates and fly and whatever.

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Like that new relationship energy and how that changes the dynamics. And I think it becomes so important to think about all of that because when you are in a web of multiple relationships that changes and affects other people. So it's not like you're just affecting yourself.

At that point, you're causing harm, neglect, maybe to the other relationships in your world. So it like, there's these. Other layers you have to be considering when you're making these decisions to take on a new relationship. So suddenly it becomes very interconnected.

Dean Spade: Yeah. And also if you took on a new job, that might happen.

And if you got sick, it might happen. And if you got pregnant, it might happen. So also not like, I think that the other side of it could be that we could try to, I think some people also try to make open relationships secure, like monogamous relationships, like promise me nothing will ever change. And it's just, it's just, The real question is why are we all so afraid of change and what would I have to do to be able to sustain the reality that that my desires and time and capacities will change as will my dates and like, that's in the same way of recognizing like we're all going to die, or we're all going to age or we're all going to get sick in different ways and you know, be whatever, like just yeah.

Things change and you know, like that is really painful for people and I think that like you could be in monogamy or you could be doing something else and still be trying to force things not to change.

Nicole: Yes, 100%. Yes, I love you're preaching like all my ideas. I always related back to that of like, yes, death is coming.

Like, the fact that we're so uncomfortable with that reality that things are going to change. I think it, it does parallel and all these other ways as well of like, yes, this general. Yeah. Unease with change. And so I feel like the answer if there is an answer to that right is like, how can we learn to feel secure within ourselves?

And I don't mean in some sort of like individualistic go off into, you know, your own little recluse world, but like, how can we gain some sort of stability trust in ourself? To navigate the relational fluxes that occur and especially what you said, yes, of like monogamous people, the same thing happens.

You have a new job. Maybe you take on a new hobby. Maybe you get a niece. Maybe you get all these other pieces. I think people forget that, like, these are relationships that you have time and energy that you devote to, right? Like, even this podcast that I make is a relationship. I spend time creating, devoting to it and it takes away from my other relationships.

Right? And so, like. Yes, change is inevitable in all of that, and at the same time, how can we find the security within ourself and our interconnectedness to be able to, like, ride those waves of change?

Dean Spade: To me, that, a lot of that is like, oh, when things change, or when I believe they might change, or when I'm fearing they change, what's coming up?

Like, just being really aware, like, oh, I'm, I'm being activated about, The death of my mother when I was 14, I'm being, you know, just whatever. Just like that for me, everybody's got thing, right? Like getting people you're activated by your parents, divorce, you're activated by your migration experience, right?

Whatever. Like the things, other moments of loss and change that were from the stories you've heard about loss and change from your family or from the culture or stories about non desirability that you think that loss and change me, whatever. And just being like, look, there's that, you know, and then how can I simultaneously reconnect.

To my actual principal belief that I want the people I know to pursue what they need to pursue and to be well and be like on their own like healing and growth path. So that means that if my lover needs to go away to move to another town, or if they need to have a baby with somebody, I'm not gonna see them anymore.

If they need to, you know, fall in love with somebody new, like. Which doesn't, and then also to have room for loss, like, like, doesn't mean like that feels like nothing, but also can I feel how that makes me sad or that's hard and also not make anybody the bad guy or like be horrible to anybody. I mean, just for ultimately, I'm, for me, this like the baseline is like, can we all try not to harm each other?

And I think sometimes people think that when someone rejects them, that's harm, but actually people are allowed to say no to us. People are allowed to say, I don't want that, I don't want that anymore, I don't like that. And like, I think that there's like a real confusion in our culture between like, everyone has to do what I want and I was harmed, you know, and like, I think that is a, I don't, that comes up, I think a lot relationally where it's like, is it okay to hate somebody cause they broke up with me or rejected me?

And, or, and, or if they did it imperfectly, you know, it's like, well, yeah, they're going to do imperfectly. And usually if someone breaks up with you or rejects you, you feel like they didn't do it right. Because there's no way that could have not hurt. So like, how do we be a little, um, I don't know, build some self awareness around that and then be like, okay, what do I need?

The kind of security you're talking about having inside ourselves. Like to me, that's usually it's social. It's like, how do I have like enough of a support system and that connection to friends, a set of activities that I know make me relax when I'm having a hard time. I think for a lot of us. It helps to like go to some kind of therapy or have some kind of practice where we get some deep reflection on our reactivity.

Nicole: Yeah.

Dean Spade: You know, like that, that's to me, that's what security means. It's like, not that I'm not going to feel the constant rollercoaster of things that we all feel, but instead that I'm going to like have people to turn to have stuff to do and have like some sense like, Oh yep. I'm on the rollercoaster right now.

It hurts. Yeah. But I don't, but I don't need to like, take anyone down because of it, or like, I don't have to decide I'm bad or they're bad, but I can be like, right now I feel like I'm bad, or right now I feel like they're bad. That's different than, I have to make them bad, punish them, or make me bad, punish myself, you know?

Nicole: Yeah, because it's much harder to hold the reality of both. It is so much easier to just be like, no, they're a bad person, they're horrible, that's why this happened, so, you know, fuck them, and that sort of energy, versus holding the duality, that's so much heavier of like, Wow, the way that they just broke up with me was incredibly painful, and I am sad, and I am grieving all of that.

And that person did the best that they could. And having that sort of space of like, whatever that was, that's how they showed up. And not taking it personally, because we also have to remember that everyone's going on their own journey. Doing the best that they can and so yeah, how can you hold that duality?

I think that is an active practice because at least from my experience, you know, you have that frustration and it's hard to like, hold that space, take a step back and like, reflect and be like, no, like, this does hurt me. That's a valid emotion. I wish they would have done better, but I also see where they're at.

Dean Spade: Yeah, and like it's and like being like I can be angry. Yes. Like anger is great Yeah, it's like all the feelings are okay, but it's like do I need to do anything? Do I need to try to get everyone in our circle to hate them?

No, do I need to try to get them banned from this or that space? Like just trying to be like, you know Just trying to I think that idea that fundamental abolitionist principle that no one is disposable like just trying to like I Can be really mad at them.

I cannot want to talk to them. It's great You can have boundaries where you don't want to talk to people, you know, I have space whatever but like do I need to take them down

Nicole: Mm hmm. Mm hmm because doing so would feel better. I'd get some more that would look at them in the same way and I'd feel validated in my experience of pain that I'm struggling to validate on my own.

Dean Spade: Although most people, I would say, do not feel better when they go on campaigns against others. You're never satisfied once you start trying because somebody still likes them. Like it's deeply unsatisfying to campaign against someone like everyone I know who has Done that for various reasons. Um, has ended up feeling more isolated because, because when some people won't participate, you feel super rejected.

And then you feel like, Oh my God, like they don't believe me because they didn't, you know, like, it's just off. Like, I, I see it a lot, just like in social movement. It's like, you know, we were in a group together and we were best friends or dates. And then you and I, like we had a bad ending and now I'm trying to get everyone to think you're, I've got a story about how you do this cause you're whatever.

And then I'm trying to get everyone to hate you and exclude you from things. Like I think. I think that that desire to campaign is, I really have compassion for it and understand it. It's like a, it's like a thing that makes sense in a culture where people are isolated and don't feel seen and heard and don't feel entitled to their feelings.

And so they need to like try to find, like you were saying, validation for them. But I think it's really, it's one of the more dangerous tendencies in our movements that produces like a kind of conflict that's really enduring where it's like the whole community has to line up. Are you on this side or that side or where, where, If you don't do what I want you to do about the pain I experienced, then now I've also got a label for you.

Yeah. So I'm not saying that person did it because they're sexist, I'm saying you're a sexist if you don't do everything I want to exclude them. And it just becomes these like massive, massive rifts and it's not actually stopping bad behavior. You know, it's not stopping people from being like actually sexist, racist, ableist, etc.

Like we need some, you know, some other approaches and it feels very like, it's like, I think what, I think campaigning is what we do when we feel actually very alone.

Nicole: It's like very individualized, you know? Yeah, to gain people so you don't feel alone and not suffering it. What's coming up for

Dean Spade: people more, so they don't feel so alone, you know?

Yeah.

Nicole: Yeah. And what's coming up for me is like this idea of patriarchal othering. Right that is the other in like, I am pushing that person out and if you align with that person, you are a part of the other that is bad so that I can feel power over here and ostracize the other. And I mean, we see that through multiple ways that the patriarchy comes through to other various minority people and put them in this other camp that is ignoring the connection of our humanity and the need for that other person to have community as well and to grow and develop as well and have support.

Dean Spade: Yeah, I mean, I think it's living in a prison based society. It's like the idea that we get from childhood is like, there are good guys and bad guys. We all want to be good guys. We all want to identify bad guys. And like doing that feels like a life and death matter. And so then, you know, I think a lot of people.

Experience their internal. It's very, it's very subconscious. Like, you know, this like, kind of like deep binary in that way. And so it's like, when, when you're with me, you're a good guy and you can do no harm. And then I'm actually not saying, oh, hey, the way you said that actually hurt that person's feelings.

I'm not giving you enough feedback when you're on my good guy list. And when you're my bad guy list. It's like, you're dead, you're, you're canceled, and like that emotional dynamic, I think also is how we're seeing ourselves at the same time. It's like, Oh my God, I did one thing wrong. I'm the worst person ever.

Yes. Or it's like, I'm the best, I'm the worst. It's like this people toggle between grandiosity and self hatred, not all the time, but like on, on hot topic issues within themselves. And like, it's like, how do we, I think a lot of what you're saying is like about like, how do we hold complexity and how do we have like the nuance that like, I don't know, I mean, one of my favorite 12 step slogans is I'm not the best person.

I'm not the worst person. It's like,

Nicole: yeah,

Dean Spade: we're all just in here muddling around and everyone else is too. And it's not surprising that we all make mistakes a lot. And the, the, the qualities we need to cultivate are the ability to give and receive direct feedback, the ability to apologize, the ability to forgive.

Like these are profound qualities that we are terrible at because living in a prison society teaches us not to use those qualities, but instead just to like, Have people on a pedestal or, you know, put them in a cage.

Nicole: Right? Right. And I think what you're hitting on is so important about how those then come internal, you know, I'm thinking about Foucault and how those turn those these ideas into yourself.

So then, yes, you see yourself as good or bad person, rather than the complex human that you are, that we all are. That can make mistakes that can hurt other people that can be a leader that can be so compassionate and we can hold both because that's what it means to be human is to be able to do both and to then use mindfulness to choose how you want to show up in the world.

I think, like, that's where I hope we can come to, that space of being able to see that duality and hold that duality.

Dean Spade: Yeah, I mean, I think I worry that some of the community dynamics in, like, you know, polyamory or open relationships or whatever, if these kind of communities we want to talk about can actually reinforce.

um, perfectionism and shame. Like if we're like trying to perform it perfectly publicly and not have any of the feelings we're not supposed to have and I think that stuff can be really can just feed right into that same mindset within us and cause us to Behave poorly to each other and do sideways shit because we can't because we're not perfect.

Nicole: Yeah, which makes sense when you're a minority wanting to be that model, wanting to be that perfect, you know, example of what it looks like, because society doesn't accept us already. So let me show you the best of what it is. And like, I feel like some of the ways that I've seen that is like the non monogamy poly community, like, Talking poorly about monogamous individuals who choose that, you know, and who then come and say like, well, if you have jealousy, you need to check yourself, right?

Like this, like, push back on this sense that something's wrong with you if you're jealous.

Dean Spade: I mean, also, if we believe in consent, we cannot judge people for being monogamous. Like, we don't, I don't want to create a new, like a new society in which you're bad if you're monogamous. Like, we just flip it. Like, the whole thing with consent is I want people to actually do what they want.

I want them to be celibate if they want to be. I want them to date and fuck a million people. I want them to date and fuck one person or whatever they want. You know, like the whole thing is if you, if you don't feel like you're in choice, It's not going to go well, like you're not going to have the experience you're trying to have, it's not going to be good for the people you connect with, like, and so the idea that, I mean, the thing I've always felt about this is like, you can hurt people terribly and be wildly irresponsible in polyamory or monogamy.

You can have deep, meaningful, connective experiences in polyamory. I feel like it's like, there's neither of these. It's true that monogamy is tied to a set of private property based social relations that we want to dismantle. It's true, like the monogamy requirement is and the monogamy norm is, but the problem there is, is norms, not behavior of monogamy.

Right. And so like in our society, choosing not to be monogamous is countercultural and can have, can feel like liberation to people in particular ways because it's like not on the menu of what's society accepted. And being monogamous can be pushed and normed, but the problem there is all the pressure and non consent, not like, like inherently choosing to have one date is not.

There's nothing good or bad about it. It's just like, do our people getting to find choice in it? And so the thing where we shame people for, you know, in any, in any subcultural context, like, you know, I've been, when I, when I was like really young queer scenes, we really shame people for not like, it was like, you're supposed to be like all the way gay or all the way lesbian.

And like, it was terrible. Then it was like, yeah, whatever you can, you can find ways to just like, Limit people's, um, to enforce norms even inside our subcultural spaces. And that is not freedom, you know, the norm. I do think that it's cool that in our subcultural spaces, we ask people to question like, wow, why do I desire what I desire?

Why do I think that I'll only be happy when I'm married and have 2. 5 children on property? Like, I subcultural spaces. Are places where we question our desires and what we're like desire is not I mean desire comes often from cultural scripts and mythologies and we're going to like see if we could desire otherwise and we're going to question whether that's a questioning fat phobia and our desire questioning um the desire for monogamy or the assumption that monogamy will make us safe and satisfied all of that is wonderful.

But that's different than criticizing people in a way that's like designed to shame them. You know, like that's shame is like liberation rarely comes from shame. Right.

Nicole: Yes. If that's just going to push someone further into a space of lack of curiosity, right? When you shame someone defenses come up and that is the opposite of what you were just talking about of curiosity, asking questions, exploration.

And so yeah, no shame is not going to foster that in people. So. Yes, if anyone hears that alone, just, like, try to work on letting go of the shaming of others, even I think some people want to help people expand, but doing it in shame is not the way to do that. And I appreciate what you said about, like, yes, monogamy comes from, like, a patriarchal structure and all these other pieces.

And, uh, I think that's worth examining. Right? Like, I have nothing against people who choose to do, you know, monogamous dynamics. It's something I've engaged in at times and go back and forth in some sort of whatever feels good flow relationship anarchist way for me. And I think some of the pieces of that that I do like to call into question are, like, some of what we talked about earlier, like, the concept of emotional fidelity, right?

Like, the concept that you can't have deep, emotional, intimate partnerships with other people, then you're, you know, Monogamous partner that sort of stuff. I call it the question because I think that that's sort of Relating is not necessarily now about the monogamous. Diad. Now. We're talking about relating to your whole Community like that Inherently, I think should be questioned

Dean Spade: Yeah And I think I mean that that's thing that I think we're about how much how centrally I value friendship But just like yeah, I just I really think that like my primary belief that maybe is Where I would say like the most interesting thing to me about relationship anarchy is the, like the non hierarchy, the like, you know, like the, I get to think all I have all these different friends, all these different relationships and possibly different lovers or whatever who all, you know, and family members or whatever who have D or different people.

I wanna, I don't, there's not one person I wanna connect with everything about, right? Like the person I wanna talk to about like my new intellectual project, maybe this person and this other person I really wanna connect with about art and this other person I really wanna talk about like our shared family history stuff or.

And like the idea that I should do everything with my boyfriend and that, I mean, it was really significant to me when my dad died that I brought my dearest old friend to his funeral, not my boyfriend, like that was who I wanted to have there. And that my boyfriend like had, took no offense to that. Like, there's not like, we just have a sense and feeling that there's no reason we need to do everything together or be everything to each other.

That illusion is not part of our relationship. And that feels to me like, so. Essential and that's and that that thing you're describing about like that that emotional fidelity that story that you should be in this community of two, you know, is so it makes people just so isolated and miserable. And then that makes that relationship so miserable because it's like, of course, you can't be all things to me.

You're not like, you have, we have a set of shared or rapid interest. And then also things that are different, which is what makes us interesting to each other that we're different, you know, like. It's so frustrating to see people expecting that and to see people like then move in the world only as couples, which is just like, to me, like, you know, rarely, Like safe or satisfying

Nicole: because dare I say it goes against our nature.

We are social beings. That is just a reality that we benefit and grow in connection with other people. And so, yeah, to close all of it down to say, the only 1 relationship that I'm going to find intimacy is here. That is a burden. On that relationship that will like, you know, like a fire when you try to you don't give it oxygen.

It won't breathe. Okay. So, like, that's exactly where I'm always out of, like, regardless of whether you do polyamory monogamy relationship anarchy. I think 1 of the biggest things is, like, coming into more relational intimacy across all. Of your relationships and whatever structures allow you to feel safe in that and secure to continue to build go for that do that, but trying to place all of your relational needs on 1 person will fail.

Is there anything you feel like lingering? I feel like we've had a really good conversation about. Relationship anarchy, challenging the status quo of what it means to be connected. I think so.

Dean Spade: It's really fun to talk to you.

I don't, I don't often talk about these ideas. In this way. It's fun.

Nicole: Yeah. Oh yeah.

I mean, I could, I could keep going. This is what I write about. So yeah, it is fun to get to have like someone else who like shares the same space. I think one of the things, if you have more space to chat, do you feel like, okay, yeah. One of the things I find interesting about relationship anarchy is like the deconstruction of the monogamy, non monogamy binary itself.

Yeah, I mean, that mode in a binary is a reflection of the patriarchal structures that place romance and sexuality at the top. Let's say how I relate, how I define my world is going to be a monogamy or a non monogamy, right? And when you take away the hierarchy, like, that sort of lens doesn't even make sense anymore, because then we're all non monogamous to a degree, right?

Because then we're all poly at that point, because I have multiple relationships. Because polyamory isn't just about romance and sex. That is a mononormative, patriarchal understanding of placing sex and romance at the top. Once we take that away, it's a whole different world.

Dean Spade: What you're saying is that you can remember something in that book Polysecure, which I kind of read quite a while ago now, so I don't remember, but I feel like the author had like a chart that was like about kind of like how emotionally exclusive and how sexually exclusive your relationship is.

And It was really cool to talk to some of our friends about it and talk about like, who we, that a lot of people we are friends with, even if they're in sexually exclusive relationships are in really emotionally, not exclusive relationships, like have really deep friendships or do, you know, have sleepovers with friends or go on camping trips with friends, do things without their date, basically.

And how just talking to people about like, how health giving that felt like it is, or how well, well, being enhancing that is for. Sure. A lot of people I know,

um, that feels different than the kind of like, you only ever see me in the world with my date and you only get to interact with me with my date.

And, you know, I've, you know, I've known people who, who had almost like an agreement in their relationship that they weren't allowed to talk to anybody about their relationship. Like their other friends, like that to me can be like, like border on getting into like domestic violence dynamics. Because if I'm not ever allowed to tell any of our friends, if things are hard between us and high work relationships are hard, they just are, you know, like, um, this kind of like extreme loyalty that is isolating.

Like, you know, that's, I think the worst case scenario of that kind of, you know, Emotionally exclusive relating.

Nicole: Mm hmm. Absolutely. Yeah, it can yeah, it isolates you again Exactly what we're talking about before and then yeah, you have no one to bounce that off No one else to connect to and I think that's why at least the ideas for me of relationship Anarchy are applicable to both right at least from what I've I've done some research and There's no academic research on relationship anarchy.

There's one paper from a queer feminist in Spain that talks about the political nature of it, but beyond that, there's nothing. So a lot of this is also just like, you know, blogs, other sorts of pieces that are out there. And one of the blogs that I was reading was talking about how, like, yeah, if we understand the monogamy, non monogamy, like relationship anarchy is like this third point that is kind of like outside of that binary and in that way, I feel The aspects of relationship anarchy, the values are applicable to all relationships.

So you could be monogamous and a relationship anarchist, and that's within the bounds, as long as you're working to do exactly what you're saying, right? Of like, removing the focus, the isolation to one romantic sexual partner being your whole thing, and opening up your relational world to more people.

Dean Spade: I mean, I think, you know, I think a lot of the skills we talk about in question in thinking about polyamory and non-monogamy are, are so applicable elsewhere.

Like, you know, you know, people who are like, I have a best friend and she can't invite anyone else if she doesn't invite me. And, and others of us are like, oh yeah, I've got, I've got also best friends and sometimes they have a dinner party and I'm not invited. And like, it's like that's. It's legit. Or like, you know, if you're getting part of this organization, you need to be loyal to asking you to kind of feel like, you know, negative towards other organizations that do the same thing.

And it's like, like that, these kinds of, you know, it's just scary. It feels just like scarcity, capitalism, internalized stuff. Like it's so heartbreaking. And most of us have it somewhere. Like most of us have that kind of scarcity or jealousy mentality. Occur somewhere in our lives, we see somebody else, you know, doing well, something we wish we were good at, or we're seeing, or we, we miss an opportunity to see other people getting to have it or whatever, you know, see somebody else thriving in some way, you know, and it's just like, can we.

Be like, that's okay. It's okay to feel that like, how could I live in this culture and not feel that especially because most of us have not gotten all the love and care and attention that we needed because we live in a culture that forces everybody to spend all their time, like, terrible jobs and not, you know, caring for each other.

But can we. Have compassion for that and not be like, I'm going to now act that out by like, you know, giving you the silent treatment because you invited someone else in on me or whatever it is. You know, like that, just like this kind of, I mean, I think this is, this is what all counterculture stuff is like, can I live in this society and not be of it?

Can I, can I live a different way? Can I try to, can I try to change? Like my reactions to things maybe I can't change my feeling but can I change my my actions even if I can't change my feeling even if I have some of those attitudes floating around in me or some of those like Autopilot kind of moves floating around to me.

Can I still choose? Behavior that's based on my principles and I think one of the things that's wild to me Is that people think they can in a lot of other areas. They're like, yes, I can work to try to unlearn my racism or my fat phobia or my ableism. I can work on that my whole life. And yes, those thoughts might still come through my head or those feelings.

And I can keep, but a lot of people don't feel like that about Chelsea. Like so many people I knew were so empowered about, about feeling like they can unlearn are just like, I could never, I could never open my relationship because I would feel jealous. And I'm just like, as somebody who feels fully jealous, I'm like, It's just like a lot of other, like, hard feelings I sometimes have.

Like, I'm just like, yeah, there goes a hard feeling. Like, Sometimes I feel like, you know, really frustrated in movement spaces. Sometimes I feel hopeless about our possible, how we could possibly ever have any liberation in the world we're living. There's a lot of really hard feelings out there and yet I endure, you know, and it's just like, and yet I still try to do things I believe in.

And I, I'm, I'm sad a lot that I think people feel so powerless specifically about jealousy and, and let it be a, I think, I think the story in our culture is that jealousy is intolerable. And when I experienced jealousy, I find that What jealousy is telling me is I am intolerable. You must get out of a situation that makes you feel this way and then I like to say Oh, there goes jealousy telling me it's intolerable When I'm not feeling it, I won't feel that way.

I'll be like, oh, I'm so, it's so worth it to me to have these other things I get to have because I'm trying to live this way. And also sometimes I feel the uncomfortable feeling of jealousy in the same way that like I experienced the uncomfortable feeling of people's transphobia and I've had a lot of really terrible transphobic things happen to me and it's still worth it to be trans.

Like I would not change it for anything. You know what I mean? Like I would absolutely never go, I would never live in what seems like a very, a very Uncomfortable small box so that I could avoid, you know, so I just think it's like, it's just like all of our other liberation practices like, yeah, it's, it's, we're choosing discomfort and just knowing that you have that.

I don't think everyone needs to do that, but just to get out of the story that I absolutely cannot. Yes.

Nicole: And I love the example you had referenced of, you know, you have a best friend that also has other friends and doesn't invite you to the party. You don't sit back and then say, well, now I can no longer have friends.

You know what? Because I have jealousy and I wasn't invited. And so you know what? To protect against that, I'm just never gonna have friends again. And we don't do that. And I think what you're talking about is yes, how like the cultural script within our world is that. If you have that sort of jealousy, it's a reason to not potentially open up your monogamous relationships to any other structure.

And even, I mean, the emotional fidelity gets me, like, take off sex off the table, just like, have, let your partner have other deep, intimate relationships. I mean, that makes people, just as much as the best friend, feel inherently jealous. And we work through that jealousy with best friends, why can't we do the same thing with our partners?

Dean Spade: I think the word I often use for this is like aliveness. Like am I, I want, I want a life, my own aliveness to be enhanced my whole life. And I want the people I love their aliveness and all people. And so if my partner is. You're my, I don't really use the word partner, but if I, you know, if my, if my, one of my dates or lovers or boyfriend or whatever is, is taking a dance class and that's, and that's making him alive.

And now I'm like, you know, feeling like, I wish I had him back on Wednesday nights or why is he, whatever. I wish I could dance or whatever. Like, can I shift from that? Or if he's having amazing sex with somebody, or if he's falling in love, or if he's doing a new art practice, you know, like, just like, you know, How can I notice that sometimes someone else's aliveness feels like a threat to me?

And then say, but I believe in cultivating each other's aliveness. So I'm not going to follow that and try to limit and control another person. I think that, that, that drive to control is so central. I just thought of like another couple ideas from the book project that I thought might be interesting to you.

Nicole: Yeah. Tell me

Dean Spade: one is like, I do think it's interesting for us to notice how we are using. sex, love, dating, et cetera. Like if we are having, if we are having a relationship to it, that does become like compulsive. Like for me, the word compulsive means that like, I feel like I can't, I can't start doing things I want and I know I want to, and I can't stop doing things I know I want to stop doing.

So like that compulsive could mean, that word's kind of like, um, pathologizing, but just some kind of whatever word would mean for somebody else where it's like, basically like, I really know I should, You know, not eat a whole chocolate bar before bed, but I keep doing it like that. Or I really know I should, you know, um, uh, you know, do my homework on the weekend and so that I, I'm not, you know, up all night on Monday, but I, but then I can't do, you know what I mean?

Like that, whatever that thing is where I can't stop or can't start doing something in it. And what's really going on is some kind of self sabotage and then periods in there. It's like a lot of people I know, and it has happened at many points in my life, struggled with that around sex and love and dating.

Like either, like, I can't say no to people. If they're offering me attention and so I'm ending up situations where I am, but I don't want to be in or I'm not really attracted to this person, but I'm having sex with them or where I, or I can't stop escalating. Like, I want the thrill of escalation. So, even though this situation isn't ideal for me, I'd still keep on ramping it up.

or I can't stop lying or I can't stop downplaying or for a lot of people like I can't start like I can't I can't initiate or I just I already think all the reasons that this person isn't good enough or I think distance themselves from their sexuality or feel so unsafe in it that they prevent it. It needs to be perfect or I can't have it or a lot of people I know like can't stop looking at the apps or can't like just how can we both be really really sex and dating and love and.

All that stuff and kink positive and acknowledge that some of us play that stuff out with this. And so one of the things I think is really complicated that I'm trying to address in the book is like, can I notice when stuff is coming out of that kind of deep autopilot place? Like I'm trying to get my sense of self.

Through an app or I'm trying to, you know, through social media or am I trying to like, or I like, I'm so I'm desiring attention so badly that I'm doing things that aren't really great for me to get it or whatever. And then, and then actually investigate what's underneath that, like what, like what is, you know, for a lot of us might be childhood stuff.

It might be previous sexual trauma or other kinds of trauma. I might, you know, and can I find places where Is there any way to cultivate practices where I can feel the satisfaction there, or where I can notice when I am receiving attention and care, and then, you know, or, like, get it in multiple places, not as like, also learn to be like, I can get the cuddles from my friends, or I can get, you know, I can, whatever share, you know, Mealtime or whatever the things are that I'm that I'm seeking because it's kind of like sometimes there's like barking up the wrong tree like people are trying to get everything from a date that's back to the romance myth like we were talking about yeah I'm trying to get all my needs met and all my feelings of satisfaction and care and love and being seen and feeling sexy from other people already that's problematic and then especially if I'm trying to do it Only through sex and dating when it might be good to get some of that from some other sources, like, it can be really fun to be like, my friends think I'm sexy or like, my friends think I'm cute or my friends, uh, take care of me when I'm sick.

I don't need a date for that. Or a friend will go with me to a family event that I need in company for, you know, so just try it. Like, I think I just want to like, name that. Like, I think sometimes when we're in our, like, totally pro sex, conversations we miss that we also use sex to wreck ourselves. Like we use substances and, you know, like dying ourselves asleep and whatever.

And so how can I be both like totally pro sex and anti shame and let myself tinker with that balance in my own expression and experience?

Nicole: Yeah, what I'm hearing is like this awareness of when we're having a want, uh, a need that could take on different shapes, right? Um, or ignoring. A want or need in terms of saying no to sex and other stuff like that, like, what is the thing that we're wanting?

Right out of that dynamic, I mean, so I'm a sexual assault survivor, and that was something that was definitely really tough for me of, like, being able to say no and dynamics that I didn't want. And so, like, what was I wanting in that moment? I was wanting security. And so, in that moment, being willing to give up my own personal safety to have security in this dynamic, rather than potentially saying no, and facing the unknown response of the other person before me.

Right? So, like, I feel like, again, it comes back maybe to that, like, mindfulness piece of, like, when we're having these desires to go on apps and, like, you said, like, a donut, you know, like, all these other or at least that's my 1. I always talk about donuts. Like, you might have said chocolate bar or something.

Um, but when we're having these desires, taking a moment of mindfulness to pause and try to assess, like, where is this coming from? Is this the best desire for me? Is it aligned with my value system? And then being able to have that moment of autonomy that comes with the reflection, the pause to then decide how we want to show up.

And obviously that's harder said than done if you're in compulsory habits that have taught you, you know, like we have neurological systems in our brain. When you've done a pattern, you know, you get the dopamine and it hits. And so then just like any sort of drug or other connection, you can want to have that same sort of Repeat and so I think it gets really difficult when you have that repeated pattern and then to break that kind of like a drug of anything.

You have to take that moment pause and say, like, what am I actually craving in that moment that I'm replacing with this?

Dean Spade: Yeah. And part of it is that one of the stories of the romance myth in our society and like mythologies around sex is that like, Oh my God, this desire is out of control. I can't help myself.

And so one of the ways that works is people will do stuff like wildly, you know, cheat on people or break all their agreements and be like, Oh, I was shot with Cupid's arrow. I couldn't help it. Yeah. And that's bullshit. Like we get to choose and we are, we are choosing and discerning people. And. And I think in the area of sexuality, people will do really, and that's also how people justify things like stalking others or such assaulting people, like, I was overcome with desire, like, that whole rationale is actually a pro rape culture story.

So we want to really say, no, actually, if I think I can't control this, what's going on for me? If I think I cannot stop, and so, you know, one of the things I have in the book, which I think is maybe a little controversial because it feels like it's, Could be understood as like anti sex love dating.

Whatever is I have like a seven step process for de escalating a crush Because sometimes you are like you can get crushed out on someone and it's actually not the right time place or person like your employee in an environment with a lot of Power dynamics and it could and it could be actually that inappropriate and harassing or you realize that maybe this crush is really really hardcore and emerging because you Have some other stuff going on that you're trying to avoid but it would actually like really wreck you right now To pursue it and so you want to like not be tortured by it or be able to like admire the person and enjoy that But not have it be like an obsession whatever and I think that like just a lot of what the camera But the seven steps are right now, but a lot of them are about noticing.

How do I stoke? You An obsession. And how do I turn it down? So I might stoke it by listening to the songs over and over again that remind me of the person by like looking at pictures of them again and again, or by remembering this thing they said to me, or by making unnecessary contact with them. Like, one thing I've noticed is that if I want to not, if I want to have a connection, not escalate, I need to not engage in electronic communication.

I. Uh, like, I love words. I'm, you know, so like, if I'm engaging in like texting or emailing somebody and it's got a flirty vibe for me, it's going to like, just go up. Right. So, like, there's just things like, it was like, of course, I want to keep escalating. Right. But, but some, but even just having the term, like, sometimes like, this is not the time to escalate this thing.

Like, just, it's okay. Like, we don't have to, and there's a kind of also scarcity story about sex and love and dating in our society where it's like, if you get a chance to, to have some, you should go after it at all, you know, at all costs. Who cares who gets hurt? And so like, how to, I would just say all this inside the container of being like, pro sex, pro everybody having these experiences, but also like, Just not being not having a belief that I'm out of control and can't make any decisions because then that can just justify, like, harming myself and others.

You know, I think it's just there's a lot of nuance here because we do live in a shame based society. But I think I've been in a lot of subcultural communities where we're just like. We're so pro sex, we're so proud of this that we never acknowledge that also it's good to have the skill to sometimes, like, not do things, you know?

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, when you're talking about being worried that it might be not pro sex, I, I was thinking of, you know, other metaphors that might put it into a similar context of like, you know, like, I'm pro ice cream. I really am. It's great. You know, it's delicious. At the same time, there's a point at which you've had enough, where maybe you shouldn't keep going.

Maybe you shouldn't open up another pint. Maybe you shouldn't go, you know, like, working to de escalate the pleasure that you can receive from that into a context that makes, you Sense to whatever you're doing, maybe you shouldn't eat ice cream every single day for your only meal. Like, that's not necessarily as nutritious.

I'm still pro ice cream. It's just like, we do need to recognize that we do have control and not negate that autonomy because yeah, you're right. When you start to negate that autonomy, it is a excuse. At times, or people can use it as an excuse to then do unhealthy, toxic, whatever sort of behaviors through that lens of like, oh, I was just, I was couldn't control myself.

The ice cream was so good. I just couldn't stop. And I think that's. Negating the reality and I mean, in that context, also seeing, you know, there's people with patterns of relationships that have modeled unhealthy dynamics before. And so, like, you might be, we might be falling into that myself included at times replaying out dynamics.

And in that sense, feel that lack of control. But always, I mean, that's the. The work, right? Like, that is the work of figuring out yourself, of knowing how to have autonomy and self control. At least that's been my journey, right? Of like, I'm always attracted to the avoidant attachment style. Like, it's not good for me, you know?

Like, how do I use my autonomy, trust myself, and go in a different direction? And I think that's all pro sex. I think talking about The risks inform consent, right? Like, that is how we get consent. We don't negate the risks that are real. We talk about the risk and let people make that decision with that.

Dean Spade: I think also, like what you just said about how you like avoidance, it's like the partner choice thing.

Like, we, it's really hard to feel like we have any control in that. Yes. But actually, you know, it's like, I love alcoholics. Like, I mean, No one, it's like, put me in a room, I'll find that whoever's an alcoholic in there is like the sexiest person to me. So, turns out I need to find alcoholics who have become sober.

Because it's like, they still have that quality, they still give off that quality. But they've, you know, or if I love people who are unavailable, or if I love people who are, Whatever, you can find people who have, who are going to give, they're still going to give off the external shaping, like I love people who are aloof, you know, but I want people who are aloof, who actually have emotional awareness and can talk about their feelings.

They may not have started out that way. If I met them when we were 25, they may not have been able to, but I want people who have done the work. And so that I still get the packaging that I find sexy, but I'm like, I have some standards about like how much nonsense I'm going to put up with, with these things.

Things that I love, I'm no longer going to date like people who are like actively running their lifestyle. It's just not fun. So, and it bleeds a friend in my life. So I think just like, like, finding that we can also become discerning about about the fact that we have those drives. And that's different than being like, I'm totally out of control and you could keep it zero struck, but instead, like, oh, like.

Like, I mean, I had a friend recently who started a relationship with someone and it was like, it seemed like there was all this potential and the, and realized the person like, just didn't have a set of emotional skills that they needed and got out of it. And I was like, wow, I'm really impressed. Cause most of us just don't get out of it when it, when it's going to be a painful, bad match.

It's like, if you know, you need something basically, am I going to be accountable to myself? I've learned this again and again, and yet here I am again. And I'm dating somebody who, you know, who's doing this thing that I have. Again, and again, said to myself, my friends, hey, that always ends up being hurtful.

So, just like, feeling that, like, you're, like, we're just describing the word autonomy, like, oh, I have enough capacity in myself to be a chooser instead of to just be like, oh, Cuba's arrow struck and I'm going down this road of misery and, you know, all my friends are like, oh, God, there he goes again, you know, like.

We're going to be supporting Dean through this again, you know, like yeah, you know, which I'm sure they would be lovely about, but you know, everyone's so frustrated when we all just do the same things over and over again. A lot of the book I'm working on is just about like identifying the patterns, you know, being like, is there a way to have a choice?

I'm looking at the time and realizing I should go. So good to talk to you.

Nicole: I know it has been so lovely just to bounce off ideas and co collaborate together. I do have one question I ask everyone on the podcast to close and that is what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?

Dean Spade: I think shame.

Shame tells you you're the only one who's like this. You're worse than other people. If people find out this They'll leave you and everyone's feeling shame about something and some people it's on the surface and some people it's hidden behind a, like a mirage of grandiosity, but like I just, it's, and, and shame tells us to hide, it tells us don't mention this to anyone.

And I found it very useful when I'm having shame to try to clear it up by checking it out with somebody I trust being like, I'm feeling shame about this and it almost always reduces it some. So I just, I wish that like. And also, I think for years and years, a lot of things I felt I didn't identify as shame would have been helpful if I sooner could have known.

Oh, that's shame talking.

It's shame telling you you're too much. You shouldn't have done this. You shouldn't have done that. You have to hide this. You have to hide that, you know, and now, now it's still there with me, but it's like, uh, it has less, uh, Power to poison, I think, right?

Nicole: You have a different relationship to it.

You see it now and are able to respond to it. And I think that's, at least for me, this is where mindfulness always comes back, right? Like, even in meditation, you get frustrated, like, why am I struggling to meditate? Like, ah, you know, and it's like, the more you engage with that, the deeper you go into that spiral, rather than like, recognizing the shame for what it is.

And taking that moment to know that now you're awake. You see it now. Like, good. Like, good. You see it. Now you can go in the direction that you want to go to, which is opening up to other people about it, letting go of that, rather than like, why do I feel shame? It's like, okay. Let's move through these emotions with compassion.

Dean Spade: And acceptance. I mean, I think also just like, A lot of things are not going to change. I might feel shame my whole life. I, I feel anxiety, I may feel, it's like, just like, I, you know, I might have chronic pain. It's like, like I said, like desperately trying to figure out how not to have it. Like, it's like, I'm taking, take this good care of myself.

And also like, this is life, but these things, these are the wounds, these things actually happened to us that gave us these wounds and, and that kind of like acceptance, I think is so relieving. I suppose I need to become somebody who doesn't have this damage. You know, all of that stuff.

Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Life comes with all the joys and the pains and that's the reality.

Yeah. This has been so lovely. Is there anywhere for people that you'd want to plug so that they can find your new book, connect with you?

Dean Spade: Yes. My new book is not out. That's all we're talking about today. But, um, all my other stuff is at deanspade. net. Sweet, sweet, sweet, sweet.

Nicole: But truly it has been such a pleasure to bounce off ideas with another theorist and have this space together.

Dean Spade: Yeah, really nice to meet you. Thanks for doing this work.

Nicole: If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you're a part of the anarchist community, then follow us on Instagram or nominate a guest for the show by sending in a letter to modernanarchypodcast at gmail.

com. Otherwise, I'll see you next week.