Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host Nicole.
On today's episode, we have abs join us for a relationship anarchy research interview. Together we talk about the expansive wish to love and share. Embracing our humanness and how another world of relationships is possible. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.
My name is Nicole, and I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice, supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and Intimate relationships, dear listener. Ugh, I just love these relationship anarchy interviews, I really do. I really, really do. If you are new to the series, I completed my doctoral dissertation on relationship anarchy. And had explored these same questions in my research and brought that onto the podcast and have been continuing the research, continuing the exploration with all of you and it's been just such a joy.
I truly learn so much from all of the relationship anarchists that have trusted me to come onto this space. And. Yeah, dear listener, if you're a relationship anarchist and you're wanting to chat with me, there is a link below. You can answer these same questions and come on to the show with me. Come talk to me.
I want to learn from you and share in this exploration with you. And dear listener, I feel like you must be able to feel the harmony, the resonance. in these conversations when I go back and forth with a guest who has a similar understanding of how another world is possible, right? There is a whole other way of relating where we can share and be in loving connection with multiple people, and there is such harmony when I find other folks who are resonating with these same values, the same vision for what love and relationships can look like.
And so I'm just truly so honored, honored, honored, honored every time that one of you, dear listeners, trusts me to come on to the show, and I am so happy that I get to bring you these conversations, and I hope that they continue to change you and inspire you as much as they are changing and inspiring me.
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Listener, please know that I am sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode. The first question I like to ask each guest is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Abs: I'm Abs. I am based in Brighton, UK. I guess I've become a bit of a relationship anarchy evangelist. Yeah, I would have loved to have heard something like this podcast when I was so much younger.
To recognize that how I felt natural or felt at home in relating was actually something that was completely fine and doable and welcomed.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. If you tap back into that younger self, how do you think they would have responded upon hearing that?
Abs: Pretty excited, knowing that this sort of falling in love with lots of different beautiful people was still part of a feeling, a very expansive kind of wish to love and share.
And you know, that all those forms of expression were fine and cool and that they could be talked about. And, um, Yeah. Yeah. I think I would have found it very freeing.
Nicole: Oh, beautiful. Well, I'm excited to have you on the podcast today and get to talk about that, to talk to your younger self, to talk to you today and to hold this space for all of the listeners who are tuning in and to expand together.
Yeah. Well, the first question I will ask you is what is relationship anarchy?
Abs: Well, I guess, I mean, I came across the manifesto in various Podcasts, and it resonated like I was hearing a description of things, but I suppose I've made it mean something for me,
um, and taking it in a, in a way that I get to decide and choose how I want to be and conduct relationships with other humans, and indeed creatures, all living things.
By having dialogue, by feeling into things, by, yeah, really expressing honestly from the heart what it is that we want to bring in as part of our range, our massive range of expression relating to one another.
Nicole: Yeah, the creativity, the expansion, the opportunities, right? Enormous, immense, which is so exciting and at times daunting, but just that freedom.
Abs: Yeah, I think that's, that's the, when you say daunting, that also, yeah, I think that that's also Strap A Cord, which is that. Sometimes just that, that very sort of precipice of, Whoa, I get to choose. Or, you know, someone else gets to say something and I get to decide and respond. And yeah, sometimes that, I mean, that's also been the, the one of the biggest challenges of the, practice.
I would describe it very much as a practice. I think it has a lot of, um, spiritual Buddhist tendency, um, in, in how I, how I feel about it because it's, it's a really conscious exercise in being human and relating.
Nicole: Yeah, I'm definitely in agreement with you. I always say practice in relationship anarchy. I'd love to hear more about that connection and the word practice for you.
Abs: Well, just, I think it's like playing a musical instrument, you know, in the sense that, and, and also just this wonderful thing. It's a lesson in that I can get this wrong and others can get this wrong and actually that's okay too. What we're doing is researching and practicing together and being vulnerable together and it takes, it takes practice.
And I think that's the other thing about, you know, the water that I've been swimming in to the point of a couple of years ago, very much was a, you know, a different kind of framework and ethic and, and it's still there. It's so prevalent, this, the Disney fying of. of what is meant to be close relating.
Um, so yeah, the practice in its, in and of itself is, is to, to keep on going back to the things that, that matter, that feel important, having that dialogue and knowing it's okay to, to, can I say, can I swear?
Nicole: Yes.
Abs: Knowing that it's okay to fuck up every now and then. And that in and of itself is for, you know, for somebody where I feel like, you know, there's a lot of. Again, societally, it's not just me, I know the pressure to, you know, to be on top of things and have it all sorted and did it, you know, and we still this messaging comes through.
It's like, no, actually, we get to make mistakes. And learn and and that's all part of it as well.
Nicole: Right, right. The mistakes are inevitable as our humanness, right? We're gonna mess up. We're going to have those moments of learning and right. So what does it mean to see it as a practice rather than a destination?
It's something we're going to continue to learn and evolve through and, you know, When we think about anarchy and dismantling power structures, I don't think that there is going to be a day where we wake up and we say, Oh, I've dismantled all the internalized systems. Actually, I'm done. I think if you do think that, maybe we got to start at the beginning, you know what I mean?
Abs: Yeah, because there's always something new coming on the scene to just, I think, you know, and also this, this sort of, I think this kind of practice. I mean, I think it's. It can be scary for some people. So if something's scary, there's a kind of can be like a railing against it.
Nicole: Yeah.
Abs: Um, which also means it's, you know, it's never done, but I do feel like there's a increasing consciousness globally, just, um, but people are kind of tuning in, waking up.
We're human, we're connected, we're connected to a living, moving, changing earth.
Um, and Yeah, I feel, I feel like that's part and parcel of this. This relating experience is to acknowledge that and be with that. And yeah, and then at times I find it incredibly challenging.
Nicole: Yeah, and I know we'll probably hit to that with the difficulties piece.
I'll maybe hold us there. I'm curious to you had spoken to earlier about having to unlearn. different narratives. Could you paint a little bit more of some of the narratives that you've had to unlearn over the years?
Abs: There's supposed to be one person that is a life partner that I, that I end up being happily ever after with.
And I think after I came out of a, um, a long term, supposedly monogamous, um, relationship that was in a civil partnership and sort of felt like the was completely pulled. And I had that sort of, you know, that kind of dismantling of, of where I thought I would be, you know, I was kind of on like a GDP trajectory, that everything just keeps going and going and going and going until some point I stop and everything's done.
You know, this idea, and so that idea of sort of things being cyclical of sorry, can you just repeat your question again?
Nicole: Yeah, yeah. So you had spoken to the ways that you've had to unlearn a lot of different narratives. So I'd love if you could paint a broad picture of what some of those narratives you've had to unlearn over the years.
Abs: Yeah. So unlearning that You know, there's a life path that looks like the hockey stick of GDP, um, and that actually things just come in, you know, that things rollercoaster, that things go in waves, that certainly things are cyclical. Unlearning that, you know, I'm only meant to sort of be with, uh, intimately with one person at one time.
Um, unlearning that one person is meant to, you know, somehow just hold everything with me, for me, without even a conversation about whether they consent to that, can, can do that, unlearning that, coming back to it, that I'm supposed to be this sort of exemplary figure of how to do, uh, relationships and relating and, you know, um, The whole escalator stuff that just makes so much sense, but we few people seem to know, you know, that's have a framework for that to go, Oh, yeah, of course, I just unconsciously rolled into this life path that somehow, you know, that's the aspiration and unless you're following it, you're, you know, you're a, perverted or, you know, just somehow there's something wrong with you.
Um, yeah, unlearning to expect, unlearning that I, you know, I can't ask for what I need, unlearning that it's not okay to express what my desires are. You know, it's just sort of, there's so, I feel like there's so much tied up in it that I'm almost like, geez, where do I, where do I stop with having to come back around and Figure this out.
And I guess that's why. It's been helpful in some respects to have frameworks, um, like the manifesto, the original kind of manifesto. Yeah, I, I notice in my body as well, Nicole, I'm feeling like I'm really, I'm finding myself like really agitated.
Nicole: Yeah.
Abs: Yeah. Just like feeling, feeling into that sort of core and going, this is just, it's, this is actually pretty fucked up.
Nicole: Yeah.
Abs: That's why I feel like it was important to. reach out to you and to make space to have a conversation that I wish I could have had.
Nicole: So just hold in some space for that. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to make assumptions about that. So correct me if I'm wrong, but what I feel into when I think about that is almost feeling this level of brainwashing and the sense of being asleep for a long time and then coming to the space now of expansiveness and options and saying, how did I exist in that paradigm for so long?
But yeah, I'm curious. Let me know if that's kind of hitting into it.
Abs: Yeah, I think that's it because I was just turned 40 when this kind of like life changing sort of, yeah, what I thought it was going to be with forever changed. And then yes, that sort of kick started one wake up call. But it was also that I've been to a community in, I reckon it's the friends sort of, you know how things sometimes just sort of come your way.
It's like, okay, this has come my way. I think I'm gonna, yeah, there's something's feeling, and I'm learning this, this is another thing I'm learning, is the unlearning of letting brain do thinking and the learning of letting body respond. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think particularly assigned female at birth, I'm really touching back into that.
And this thing. And so there was this, this community that a friend mentioned, and they are, their research area is love and sexuality. And I was just like, okay, yes, yes, this is, I'm curious. And going there for two and a half months was also, that was a couple of years ago, but really kickstarted my journey to, to sort of be with a more intimate.
erotic body self, embodied self. And, and then I did some work with a sexological body worker. Great. And then I was just like, okay, all this sort of times that I, that I sort of felt that I was in this sort of, you know, supposed to be in this monogamous relationship and would kind of have these episodes of just like being really sort of smitten with people or, you know, feeling, and sometimes pursuing it.
You know, all of that was just so, I, I, I sort of pushed that to one side. I didn't do it in an ethical way, which I think was, you know, that is my, do I carry shame around it? I feel mean about it. I don't think I can carry shame any longer around it. Sure. I think that, Um, that isn't helpful for me to do that.
Mm hmm. Um, yeah, I've lost my train of thought now. That's okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, yeah, it's certainly been, it's certainly been a path and to sort of making, you know, to being more expansive and then just to now also feel like the people that, you know, all relate in relationships, you know, I've just had in the last few months even where I've just said, you know, I think we need to say goodbye to each other because I want to surround myself with, Relationships, people, creatures, where I can actually have the conversation about what it is that's coming up,
what it is that we're doing, what we consciously want to bring in, what we consciously need to let go.
Can we grow together through this? To actually start going, Hey, this is, this is what I want and this is what I really don't want. What are my values? what matters to me, who's around me that, you know, resonates with that.
Um, and that's, um, that's also I'm smiling because that's been, you know, that feels new and I'm going to be 50 this year.
And I also feel like that's kind of arbitrary in a way.
Nicole: Sure.
Abs: Somehow, you know, a Gregorian calendar or that framework of, of where I am as a human in age terms. Right. And that also just feels so arbitrary, it doesn't really seem to hold the weight that it did anymore.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah, I think you see people across the age span with varying levels of maturity and presence, you know, so I hear you in that and I deeply appreciate the continued invitation to listen to the body rather than the mind.
Everything I was taught as a psychotherapist within the structured academic sense is the mind, the mind, the mind, the mind, the mind, doing my work with psychedelics and my training there. There was a lot of emphasis on the body, right? Particularly in those amplified states. There's so much that comes up and it's been such an invitation from that training to move forward with rather than asking myself, what am I thinking?
You know, it's. What am I feeling? And I know my past self would have said, what do you mean? Like, you're, you're so woo woo. You're out there. I don't even know what I would say to my past self at that point. You know, she's, she's not here yet. Yeah, go ahead.
Abs: That's it. It's just, I think that was it. So I had, um, you know, when I came, the sort of big relationship ending was like 18 years.
Oh, when I came out of that, I reconnected with my sister and I'd always dis, I'd always dismissed. Or for a good, you know, 10 to 12 years, I've dismissed my sister as being a bit kind of, you know, a bit crazy, woo, woo, wah, so much more in touch with her own spirituality. It's sort of been spent time in South America and so on.
And I was just like, how, how have I been? It's almost like I've been shutting up. I had completely been shutting off a part of myself, getting quite sick along the way. I think like, you know, three episodes of quite severe burn. And it's always just dismissing that sort of. That wildness, that, that body ness, that, you know.
Yes. The things inside that speak. And if I don't, when I don't listen to them, more often than not, I've gone down a path which has caused quite a bit of suffering. So I'm sort of, you know, I think, I think what you've said about psychedelics is also really interesting because I do think that that therapeutically is a big expander.
Nicole: Oh yeah.
Abs: It's really connecting. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's been, it's, it's really super interesting. And I think that, like you say, I can't, it's like, how did I allow myself to do that for so long to switch off to feeling that kind of touching into what we are, we are so much more than everything that's presented to us.
You know, you will follow this path, you will work in this system, and you will then. It's so constraining and, and I think that that's also a sickness, I think there's something isn't there that, yeah, it's a sickness for us, it's a dis ease.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Right. And so in these systems, it makes sense that we would go numb, right?
That is our soul trying to protect us. That is our mind trying to protect us because there are so many aspects of this life where you have to tune out because if you really tune in your scaries people get before work. Your body is actively saying, no, I don't want to go to this. Yes. And you still have to go because of the systems that we live in.
Right? And so, of course, you're going to disconnect. Of course, you're going to have to force that down. So, I think, depending on the levels of trauma that you've had, whether it's, you know, the capital T, the little T, however, we quantify all of that. Right? The more that you have those, the more you have to disconnect to be able to survive, even just thinking about what you were saying earlier around eroticism.
So we live in this world where to be a good person, you're taught it's one person and one person for your whole life. So when you find that connection, that chemistry with someone else, Oh, you're bad, you're wrong. So you know what you have to do. Numb. You have to push that down. And so, of course, when we're talking about being disconnected to our bodies, that is a huge piece that from day one, we're taught, don't feel that.
You're bad. You're bad.
Abs: This is the other thing I remember. So I remember with my mom, I don't know whether I want to include this or not, but let's see how we go. But I remember with my so I've been masturbating and I was maybe about six or seven. And I just remember sort of, you know, I would do this thing on the floor and then I would have this amazing tingling feeling.
It felt so magic. What is this? Yeah, yeah. I had no idea. And my mum, very sweet, but she brought out a book of the body and it was all about reproduction and birds and bees. And it was just like, and I remember it so distinctly because I just think, you know, I think my mum did her best,
but didn't necessarily have a, um, a vocabulary or the kind of, you know, comfort maybe to actually support that in me as a, as a little human going, Hey, I get this amazing feeling when I do this.
Um, and I, that was the other thing is that I think up until recent years, my experience of sex and being, feeling erotic about myself, most of it had been, I'm very unconscious, um, and drug or alcohol fuels. Sure. I've been there. And then I get to sort of going to Tamara and recognizing how, just how disconnected I was from my own erotic self, the expectations that I had in relating intimately or physically with people.
And I was just, I'm like, this is something I really need to work with. So, you know, worked with a sexological body worker and just been on this journey. Part of like, you know, I want to play. Play. I want to experiment. I want to talk about the range of possibilities that are open to me with the people that I love.
They might be physical or otherwise. They might be intimate or varying, you know, it's,
Nicole: yeah.
Abs: I guess that's why I've become quite, I mean, I think it's just more that I like to speak about it. I like to speak about this as a practice to. Let other people know that these things are okay, that they are, you know, things that we all will, in some way or other, experience, feel, but the openness and the dialogue isn't there in our everyday.
Nicole: Yeah.
Abs: So let's at least just open those conversations gently. And, and have the discussion and share with one another and feel okay about this, because I would say if I had to identify, I would identify as queer and I feel like in queer circles, this is, you know, this seems to be more, not easy, but certainly more something that comes up.
Sure. Don't know how consciously some of this stuff is being practiced. But at least there's, you know, there's a different, there's a different sense of, you know, we can be with many others in different ways and we can support each other and know that, you know, I think that's one of the things I would love to do, Nicole, is I said to somebody I'm closely relating with, you know, I would like to test the possibility of seeing you physically passionate, embracing, kissing somebody else and to be with my nervous system, seeing you and go, I'm okay.
Oh yeah. I'm actually okay. I can see this and I can witness your enjoyment and your pleasure and I'm still okay. Yeah. So it's sort of, I guess in a way as well that these are my, these are my learnings and this, this is the, what I'm practicing is, Going through these steps with others, doing it in a way where we kind of are able to Support each other with, you know, how far we want to take things and then, yeah, testing it out bravely, you know,
Nicole: absolutely.
Yeah. Finding that edge of expansion that push that feels within your zone of regulation. Right? I think anytime. Yeah. Right? Exactly. Right. Exactly. Because think about any other. Aspect of our life that we gain skills and grow in. We don't grow in the space of comfort, but we also don't grow in the space of dysregulation, right?
And a trauma response. So, what is that little bit of edge? And I think athletes often know that, right? People who are moving with the body, you push a little bit and recover, you push recover. Right? And so what is that space where you can stretch the muscle, but not. break it, right? And so it sounds like you're doing that work within your community to find a space where you feel like, okay, I can stretch a little here and this is what I want to do.
I want to watch you. I want to feel secure. I want to regulate my body and I want to reconnect afterwards.
Abs: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I suppose in a way it's text, it's textbook, but I also, I also feel again, we come back to the word of practice, don't we? Which is it's, I can read and listen to podcasts till the cows come.
Oh yeah. It's about really being, putting myself in it and feeling it and, and, and being okay with the discomfort of it, but also knowing how I push myself beyond. And I feel like this is where I cock up from time to time is, you know, the other week. There were three of us together, we decided we wanted to just sort of say goodbye to each other and kiss each other.
So that happened, that's fine. But I think I'd probably pushed, like just throughout that whole day, I've been pushing, pushing, pushing. And then I felt just kind of like a bit fizzy.
And I thought, okay, have I just tried to do a little bit too much on this today? Or, you know, it's sort of, so I'm, I had this, um, I I had the ambition and the curiosity and the kind of, this would be cool.
Hey, wouldn't this be cool? You know, like really enthused, enthused. I still feel like, you know, sometimes I just don't know what's gonna, whether it's too much or not. So I guess that's that feeling in and out, knowing that it's okay to say, actually, can we, can we stop this now? Can we, can we sort of do something else or, or I need to kind of take some space from this or, and I hear these kind of words said.
When I guess because of the circles that I'm now moving in or the things I'm now listening to what I'm, I'm hearing these words quite a bit, actually being in them with them is quite a different thing. It's still like I have to keep repeating. It's like it's on repeat. So sometimes I feel like it's a bit of a stuck record with hearing these things.
And it's like, but that's okay because you are new to this. You are experimenting with this apps. This is beautiful.
And it's okay to feel like you might take, you know, 2 steps forward and 5 steps back. Right? Okay.
Nicole: Right. Absolutely. Yeah. The compassion that you're having for yourself and how much further that's going to get you rather than being angry.
Right? It's reminding me a lot of meditation practice, right? When you're trying to be with the body and the mind wanders off and we, Oh, okay. Okay. Let's, let's come back to presence. Let's come back to the breath. And then you're there for a little bit and then you float away again. Right? I don't think there's an end to that in our humanness.
It's rather the practice of each time we often can get to that state of meditation and sleep. Stay there for a little bit longer, or we become a little bit more aware of it faster, right? Oh, I'm noticing that my energy, my zest for life has dwindled a little bit. This is different. What is going on in my world?
What are the relationships around me, what has changed, right? And so maybe in the past, we wouldn't have even perceived that for months, weeks, years. We're in ways now we're a little bit more attuned. And so it's a little bit faster, but I don't think there's ever going to be this perfection state where we're totally perfect, totally present constantly, right?
That's, that's the practice word is like, okay, I'm, I'm a little bit faster this time, but we're still stretching. Yeah, yeah,
Abs: I think, I think that's definitely it. It's sort of stretching and returning and riding the waves and, you know, doing the circuit and going round again and, yeah, yeah. I think also that's where it's hard to find compassion sometimes because they're like, I've been here before.
Right. There are these wonderful Sanskrit phrases. There are like these 12 things in Sanskrit, I can't find it, but it's like, it says, you know, It says something like, you'll forget all of this and you can remember any time you choose, you know, it's that idea that, you know, there will be things that just fall by the wayside and then they come back to you in another form,
Nicole: um,
Abs: and sort of softening, softening with that.
And then that does also relate to the idea that I had of life as a sort of ongoing trajectory. Well, a trajectory to what? Death?
Nicole: Right.
Abs: You know, it's like. Yeah. Almost. Um, that's, but that's also systemically, you know, that's what we're set up for now is you, you work, you do all these things, you behave well, and then you have a pension and we know that that's crumbling.
We know how flimsy all of that is. And then once I know, I mean, my dad said to me, Oh, you know, once you're seeking and kind of looking at things, you know, that the less, you know, about. anything and you can keep on just, and I'm like, yeah. So I also get to decide what I choose to touch into, where I choose to, you know, I had this the other day with, um, like almost like I felt, felt spiritually jaded, you know, where I was just like, there's everyone vying, vying for attention.
There's this course to do that or a spiritual to do that. And I'm signed up to do this. And I, who do I trust? Who do I, who do I give my own cash to here? Who's, is this sort of, because, There's a lot of that going on, but also what I rea and also what I realise is, is that there's something there for all of us in all of our multiple diversities.
So, fundamentally, if it rocks for you, go for it. And if it isn't harming any living thing, then okay, yeah, go for it. It calls into that practice of non judgmental, which is Again, sort of spiritually, you know, not yucking someone else's yum, um, but also being able to say, well, this isn't for me. And it's great that it's for you, go you.
Nicole: Yeah. And I always love the, the phrase in yoga, practice and all is coming. I think that has been a really powerful saying to hold on to. I remember when I couldn't touch my toes and there was no clear day, you know, where I could project out when that would happen, but it was all these small, um, little moments, little moments, little moments.
And now I'm going way beyond my toes, right? And so I don't know. And in yoga, sometimes I'll have the people who grab opposite elbow and then fully get that behind the feet where I'm like, right now I'm like, abs, how could I ever get there? That seems wild. But the saying in yoga is practice and all is coming.
And I think I've felt a lot of that in my relationships, right? Where, you I could get to a cognitive space of saying, wow, all this control on our bodies when we could have sexual liberation and freedom and all of this, but how do I actually get to that state of compulsion? How do I actually get to that state of all of that?
It's the same little thing. How could I ever touch my toes? Right? Practice and all is coming small. Little steps. It is coming. I promise. Right. As long as you continue to practice.
Abs: Yeah. And I think that it's this, then, then I sort of, what's coming up for me as you're speaking is this sort of fervent idea that, that, you know, somehow we've always got to be improving.
And I've, I've found with, so we're talking about yoga now, but I would say I did yoga for 20 odd years. I would say I've been practicing yoga for maybe the last eight years, in the sense that I actually saw it as a practice where I was in my body, fully present, and sort of working with what my body was showing up as, or how I was showing up, each time I got on the mat.
And again, I know that's a coined phrase, and it's so true for me, is that, you know, sometimes, I get on the mat and I'm like, I can't. It's Jesus today. I'm, I'm done. It's, it's not, it's just not, and accepting that that's where I'm at and still working with it and still giving that, but you know, there's no, there's no push.
There's no, you, you, you need to get better at this or you need to be this by now or I've refused to do that to myself anymore. It doesn't mean that it stops, but I. actively refuse to accept that as a way to live my life, which is that, you know, I have to sort of head, you know, put the baseball bat over my own head.
Nicole: No, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The capitalists and the grind culture, the hustle, right? I, I think that's a very different frame, right? To celebrate where you're at. And I think that is leading me into the 2nd question of how do you practice it? You know, there's that saying, how you do one thing is how you do everything.
So I imagine your act of showing up to the mat and this practice parallels in a lot of ways to how you practice relationship anarchy.
Abs: Yeah. I mean, I, I, I feel like I've sort of feel quite diligent about it in some respects because I'll sort of be like, okay, so something's come up and I'll have like the person or the situation and the situation, and I'll just have like a, a bullet point of the things that I need to really go through.
So it's, I would say I'm not naturally studious. However, I feel like I'm quite studious in the practice of how I want to relate. Um, I'm also quite, um, persistent is the word that's coming to mind, but I would say, um, committed to the smorgasbording with relating with. I'm like, if you, if we want to be in close relationship together, and by close, it doesn't have to include anything.
It doesn't have to include physical intimacy, then we get to decide, we also need to look at what we want to bring in. So, um, Betty, who, who we describe each other as partner, which I think came from another podcast that maybe you have had connections with, possibly in Horty Amory, I'm not sure. But we decided that partner was a really good friend for us.
And so tomorrow night we will be starting our, our death plans together.
So that we can be power of attorney for each other. You know, if anything happens with, um, you know, Betty's arrangement where they've got a dog and a mother who their principal carer for and so on, what would happen, given that, you know, Betty is an inner, monogamous kind of set up with a partner, how can we create the possibility, the ideas, the framework for what we would want to and be willing to hold for each other in the event of something occurring that we don't have a, just a next of kin partner for and that feels, I can't tell you how empowering that feels. Yes, it feels incredible to. to be in relationship with somebody where we want to do that for each other right now.
And it feels, it's so holding. It really is so holding to have that. And, you know, it's not a taking for granted, but we, we do always that every week we meet, we have dinner together.
We've got something to share with each, you know, it is a really committed Relationship, we commit to each other and we're committing to each other around some things that we feel would be helpful to support our, how we live, you know, yeah, that's so cute.
Nicole: Yes, yes, I love it. Yeah, it's the, what I hear is the intentionality, you know, that comes into this practice is we're going to bring out the smorgasbord and we're going to talk about what we want in our dynamic.
And so rather than moving in this unconscious expectation of these sorts of things, we're actually going to get really intentional and talk about what we want in our dynamic. And so. The power, when you bring that kind of focus into creating a relationship and the joy that then comes from that, because if there are parts of it that are no longer serving you, it's flexible, right?
You can renegotiate. You can put it on the table, take it off the table, put it on again, take it off again. And that flexibility, um. Which is already reminding me of what you had talked about earlier change, right? I feel like that was a really big thing that I saw in my dissertation. And a lot of these interviews is the embrace of change.
The relationship one we have with ourself is going to change throughout the years. We're great examples of that, right? Let alone the relationships we have with other people. They are going to. Change that is inevitable. There is no getting around that. The question is, hopefully we are changing for the better.
Right? And so, as we're moving through these evolutions, these changes with the people in our world, what does it mean to get intentional and continue to check in with each other as you're going along this path? Hey, does this thing we're doing still work for you? No. Okay. Let's change it.
Abs: Do you know what's infuriating?
What has been quite, been quite rageful these last few weeks. Great, bring it, bro. I know, so I think, uh, assumptions. Yeah. Anything around assuming that something, and I just get that, like, that is, for me, that's touch paper. And you don't ever assume that this, just because we are doing this or, or, you know, this is happening or that I'm having sex with you, that somehow there's a level of entitlement to, you know, that's basic anarchy manifest, relationship anarchy manifesto, isn't it?
Yeah. You know, don't make assumptions. in that respect. So I think, yeah, it's shining, it's shining a light. So even sort of with Bessie, last week, I was able to say, Bess, I haven't felt you kind of, I haven't felt you present this last week. Like what's going on? And then it transpired, you know, there's something coming.
So we kind of almost in a way, and this is what I'm finding also, as I experiment and play and learn, is that the energetic connections with people, there's something energetically that I can't quite put my finger on that feels there.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Abs: And, and we can kind of just hear each other and feel each other in different ways.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Abs: Um, that don't have necessarily words or, you know, there's, there's like, um, there's something like cosmic telephone or something.
Nicole: Yeah.
Abs: It's happening. And I, I've, I find that Fascinating.
Nicole: Me too. And I found such joy in my life when I listened to that calling of, oh, I'm feeling drawn to this person.
And often for me, I think what I look to is that zest feeling, that energy, right? When you are in relationships with people, it brings you more energy. This comes from my family. They would say that there are 5 good things in relationships and one of them being that zest. That energy. And so ever since training in that paradigm, it was something I started to look to.
Who is that person that when you have the conversation you get out and say, Wow, ugg, I am exhausted I need some alone time. I need that peace. Break. Oh, you know, versus that person where you talk, Whoa, we were talking for hours and hours and I feel so invigorated and I want to get after it. Right. And so we, yeah, there is absolutely something going on in terms of energy perspectives and energy, just purely in terms of someone's voice.
Right. That is literally vibrations and frequencies. I know my past self would be like, this girl's crazy. Like, look at her talking about energy and she's so woo woo, but it's Pure physics at the end of the day, right? Our voice is vibration. And, um, I would say, especially even as a therapist, right? Like I'll work with a lot of anxious clients.
And so when I'm sitting with them, I can feel their energy and how they speak.
They're not taking that breath, right? And so then my body picks that up because we're regulating together. And so then, yeah, of course you pick up on other people's breathing patterns, how slow and how embodied they are versus how fast. And so all of that, I think is how I kind of put tangible words to a little bit of this ineffable energy that we feel with certain people and not, um, but there's always going to be magic to it that I think we'll never be able to fully pin.
Abs: Yeah. Yeah, I guess so. And I, and I'm so grateful to, in my life path, to have experienced for all the kind of challenges along the way to, to, to actually have, have what have tuned in. Mm-hmm . To just got to a point where I was like, okay, I can't avoid this anymore. Where looking and seeking. Um, you know, it's, it's like that, I can remember saying to a friend walking across the field, you know, my one, my wish is, is that every day I wake up to myself.
You know, I just kind of, and I guess, you know, I, I get concerned about sounding egoic in that way, but I also think, you know, it's, I do feel humility around that and I do feel that that's also important because it allows me to also check what I'm, what I'm bringing to the world, how I turn up, show up.
Yeah. And with others, you know, and that feels very much like a sort of current, um, I don't know if revolution's the right word, but a current kind of waking up globally of sort of that, that sort of people tuning in, turning on, going, okay, so there's something here that we need to actually be more in tune with that isn't what we're being presented with as a way of living.
And, you know, everything systemically that's. It's got us to a point where we're so disconnected with each other, so disconnected with our life support system, anything, I think that gives us that opportunity to get back in touch with each other, to get back in touch with this amazing place that we inhabit.
Nicole: Right. Absolutely. And I, I don't find that egoic in any sense of the word. I think that. There's so much that is outside of our control and what is within our control is our embodiment, our presence, our breath. And when we focus on that, of course, we're in relationship with people. So it's not like all day.
We're thinking about ourselves. But to be in relationship with other people, we want to be embodied. So maybe when that person does get activated and says something in a certain way, we can actually take that deep breath and be there with them rather than reacting and amplifying. Right. I think if we just think about a revolution of people being in their bodies, Oh my.
God, right? And and so like knowing our interconnectedness, but the one thing we can control is ourselves. And so what does it mean to start there? And then also trust in the ripples of that love when you are able to be really present, that friend that's crying, right? You can actually be with them rather than getting activated in your own stories and everything to actually be that.
Hey, I'm with you. You're not alone. I'm right here. Right. The power of that in terms of revolution.
Abs: Yeah. And also I think then it also comes down to a level of, um, accountability and kind of self. I'm not sure if responsibility is the right word, but I do think that's it is sort of recognizing what is mine here to kind of, to sort of hold and be with so that I'm, you know, what am I, potentially palming off that isn't somebody else's.
And that was the other thing. Energetically, when I was in community, a friend encouraged me to write a letter to the person that I was with for such a long time, which ended, you know, it was, it was really hard finishing it. It wasn't well done.
Um, and, um, and it was about sort of some years later having, they just said, have an energetic cleanup.
Nicole: True.
Abs: And I was like, okay. So I wrote a letter which, which said, you know, I'm, I'm really sorry for the things that I did, how I behaved, that were things that were mine and not yours to, to hold or be responsible for. But it took me quite a while to get to that point. And then I got this, oh my god, I got the most horrible letter of a year.
Oh no! Just saying! But it, but what it did, it was like, I don't know, three or four pages of typewritten like you this, and da da that, and you da da da, and I was just like, okay, okay, okay, I can read, I can be with this, I can be with this, just reading and going, this is your stuff?
Nicole: Yeah.
Abs: I hear you. Maybe, somehow, is this maybe giving you an opportunity that you needed to be able to voice the things that you couldn't, you know, we haven't had the opportunity to say.
I wish it was different and that we could have had a more conscious kind of, hey, can we just sort of look at the things that really weren't okay together? And who knows? Maybe that opportunity may come one day. But it was, yeah, it was, it's just, I think it is that thing of just going, you know, what have, how have I behaved in this?
How have I been in this? And actually, what do I need to sort of say, Hey, you know, I need to do some reparation here. This was not okay. And no matter, I mean, what came back to me, I was just like, okay, also energetically, I don't need to keep this. I can, I can, I can remember some of the content. This is you doing your thing around your pain.
I'm seeing it. I'm seeing what you want. You've expressed what you want, what you don't want. And now I kind of need to just let that go. I'm grateful and thankful for all of it, really all of it, because I know I'm Where I am, you know, right?
Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's such a complex dance.
It's, it's making me think a lot about my work as a therapist, because they're, you know, you just. In my positionality, I have so many different relationships that are very unique and there's always that question of what am I bringing to this dynamic? How am I showing up? And then the question of the other person and you can.
say something with the best of intentions of sweetness and kindness and it can trigger something in another person and they can say, why are you attacking me? Why are you doing? Whoa, that was not my intention. Right? And so that dance of figuring out what is my stuff and what is actually fully their stuff.
Can be so tricky, and I think depending on your socialization, particularly women and a fab folks, there's a lot of people pleasing teaching. Right? And so what does it mean at times to even take that step back and say, yes, maybe this is something I need to repair in or maybe. No, actually, this person is fully in their own thing right now.
Right. And so like you're saying, like, I'm going to take a step back and this is not on me and I'm not going to hold this in that way. And I think for me, one of the, the, the best way to check in with that is community, right. Processing with other people, checking in with other people, getting other perspectives, and also listening to yourself that dance between the two, right.
But to be able to bounce it off and, you know, cause sometimes we'll. work with other people. I'm thinking about like supervisors that have helped me in situations to see parts of how maybe I was showing up that I didn't even see. Like blinders, right? I'm just going through my world. And they're like, well, what about this?
How do you think maybe that? Ah, oh, okay. So growing in relationship to get new perspectives of some stuff that I didn't even see, right?
Abs: Yeah. And I think that that's hitting on this sort of idea that, you know, I had that, you know, I got to a point with where I was sort of juggling. relating closely with different people.
And I got to the point of really feeling very, very loving and close around one person in particular. And I was just like, Oh my God, I'm going, you know, this, this is just, I don't, I, in fact, actually, this is just all too much. I just have to stop and, you know, you know, textbook avoidance stuff. And then I was like, okay, so I'm retreating from the idea of all these difficult experiences and, and then what?
So I just sit on my own with all this, all this stuff. I'm going to get no feedback. So I had to sort of, I was like, right, okay, went into overdrive. I'm back on field. I'm back on this person, but I need to be boundary. And this is what we'll bring in. And yes, I want to experiment in this way. And then I was like, Oh, it's too much, you know, it's just kind of, it's like moving in and out of.
But that recognition of, of like, I, I don't, I don't move or shift things alone. Right. I'm not going to reach a perfect state of, oh, now I'm all sorted. And suddenly I'm just like brilliant at relating. Now I'm ready to go out and find the people to relate. Right. Yeah, it's naive.
Nicole: Yeah, but hey, it's what it's what you've been sold, right?
It's what you've been told. So we gotta hold some compassion.
Abs: No, we just kinda need to be messy together. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And the next question of the research is, why do you practice relationship anarchy? Why is this important to you?
It's body stuff again. It feels so innate. It feels like a validation of what I've felt since I can remember.
Um, I've been down the escalator route and there were some things that I'm not particularly, you know, happy with along the way about how I behaved and, and sort of ethically, just how unethical that was and how dishonest that was. I feel like there's such incredible richness in practicing in this way, practicing relating in this way.
Um, the opportunity to learn and be with each other and understand one another is so much greater, I feel, because we, we have to turn up the stones and look underneath. We really do.
Um, there's just no escaping that. And even if that means that, you know, relationships might take on a, a sort of more traditional form at some point, so be it, but it would be really conscious.
Sure. Um, and I think that, yeah, just having that also just that awareness of what am I falling into here? What patterns? What, what am I actually, you know, what am I playing out here that has worked, that hasn't worked in the past? Do I want to go here again? And sometimes I find my brain just going, Oh, God, really again, like, um, and then I just feel like, you know, Betty will say to me, we've chosen this.
I'm like, yeah, yeah. We have chosen this. It's not easy. And we've chosen it.
And I know that also it just, that practice helps me relate. So much more fruitfully with everyone that I connect with in some way, shape, or form. And I really want that. You know, I really want that. So I guess, you know, yeah, I, and I, and also I just think we, we are living this big fat lie in this day to day.
You know? It's like this is just, this isn't what we were put on earth
for I feel that really strongly. This is, or, or put on earth or whatever. But we didn't evolve to be. Systemically, what we're led to believe is the thing that we're all here for. That's just a fallacy. And it feels terrifying at times and also incredibly exciting.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think when we look back to historically, this is not How we did society is we did not do the two, two people, 2. 5 kids, white fence house all closed in where you have your own objects of all these specific objects and you don't share with anybody at all.
Abs: This lonely. Yeah, lonely and, and productive of what we're capable of.
Right. And, you know, I find this. So I came back to a house. Yeah. Uh, that I'm, I'm now living in on my own and I, I, I've kind of been left a room and, and I was like, I really, I don't want to be, I actually don't, I want to share. I want to share, I want to be with others and I want to figure out how to do so.
So if I want to figure out how we share, then one of the biggest things that we're going to have to do, and this is I think why Betty and I really made things work, is That, you know, every week or two weeks, we would sit down together and we'd have breakfast and we'd be, you know, make food with each other and there would be kind of a de rigueur kind of agenda and it would have on it, you know, money.
Uh, food, cleaning, and then there would also be things on there, insights, and conflict. And we would need to look at, you know, we had a container space, we're looking at the things where we were kind of like, well, you know, when this happened, this felt really kind of good. So could we try to, we would have these conversations that would be ordinarily maybe quite difficult to have, or if you were living with, say, a partner, and they just sort of passively aggressively bleed out.
You know, at a time where you might not be able to hear each other, but we were really conscious about, you know, we're living together. There are things that are going to come up where it's going to be uncomfortable. How can we, how are we going to look at that? And I feel like living with other people also creates that, that opportunity.
So I felt like as well, I've got a housemate arriving from the States, actually, um, September. And, you know, those were the conversations that when we were talking about living together, I was just like, look, I really need us to do this. Are you up for that? And they're like, yeah, cool. So it's kind of, I mean, it's yet to see in practice, but it's, yeah.
And also just, I've, I've found living on my own and footing the bill for everything and then making food for one, what the fuck, you know, it's kind of, but I'm also not choosing to live with, you know, to nest with a partner or have, you know. So like, and also I want to share and I see the benefit of that and how, how we can just support each other so much more.
Um, you know, friends with kids that are really far, they're really struggling. It's just like, hello, we're here. I know your family, your blood family are sort of whatever, miles away. But there's a, you know, there's a group of five of us, we're called swans. We're connected. We will round on each other and help each other.
And groups of people here helped me do my front garden excavations and putting the shed it was the most joyful thing. Yep. But it's also learning that dynamic of being with each other and, and that's no wonder we, when we go out and we try to meet each other on the street or in our beliefs or listen to each other, no wonder we can't hear each other because our practice is not one of communing Or knowing how to hear each other or be with each other.
Nicole: Right. Right. Exactly.
Abs: Other than in a sort of, you know, a Disney relationship maybe.
And then it's like, even that doesn't get shared. You know, that's all, the stuff that's most intimate gets left for that one person. We don't share it. We don't expose it.
Nicole: Right.
Abs: That was my biggest learning as well in Temera was, let's expose this stuff.
You know, we'd meet a couple of times a week, have a process called forum. There were 40 of us in our arc. Some of the most intimate relating experiences were shared, communally, and looked at and held in a safe way. And then what we could realize is we could connect with each other's humanness and go, Oh my God, that could be me.
Yeah. You know, it's, it's like the things that we feel most ashamed, the things that we feel like we need to hide, the things that we've been shamed for, or that feel the most vulnerable, Oh, you know, I need to secrete that away and just for that one person that I'm having physical intimacy with, no, this is this beautifully shared experiences and we learn so much from each other.
Yeah. We see each other in that vulnerability.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Abs: Yeah, that was incredibly powerful. And I feel like, you know, that's why I've with some relating experiences since I came back, there was one in particular, I said, Look, I think we need to triangulate our experience here. Sure. The two of us going head to head on, this situation and what's not working.
We're just like, we're batting to and fro. Let's triangulate this and have some witnessing and have some other people with us. Yeah. That can mirror, that can be in that space with us. So that we feel like it's a, you know, it isn't just this 1 on 1 thing. Sure.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. It's reminding me of my dissertation and a couple of anarchist groups that I had talked to where that is how they process.
I believe they had called it a fishbowl where they would come together to have some sort of disagreement or something that had come up and then have it be witnessed in community that could support and witness and be a part of that. So, yeah, this is all a part of it. When I think about the isolation that people feel in these dyads because of what we've been sold as a successful relationship and all that the people who are, you know, again, let's just name the infidelity stats.
It's hard to find. But Esther Perel has quoted them. Which is wild this range between 25 and in the upwards of 75 percent of relationships are going to have infidelity, which the trickiness of that is how do you define it? Right? So, then that, you know, that is a big, broad category. So, let's just say ballpark 50.
right? So, 50 percent of relationships. We're going to have some sort of infidelity anyways. And a lot of people that are even thriving in that system, they then use capitalism and money to get other people into the dynamic, right? Think about having a babysitter and nanny, right? Like you're, you actually can thrive more when you have the money to pay for these extra relationships that allow you versus Right, a community where we're not charging people for this, right?
So it's just a very different world when you think about how we are using money to pay for additional relationships Versus a community of what we did for thousands of years before this structure Really, you know,
Abs: and I think that I'm in like, you know, I think that one to one therapy has a place I do do that.
I have my fair share. That's, you know, and I see that again as a, as a helpful thing. But also, you know, I remember when I first started on a therapeutic journey, some years back, I was doing something called dialectical behavior therapy. Mm hmm. That I think had been, You know about it.
Nicole: Yeah, DBT. Yeah values.
Abs: Yeah Wasn't it as a therapy for borderline personality disorder? I think which I don't know again, whatever but just Anyway, this whole kind of pathologizing of
Nicole: yeah, I don't like the DSM. Yeah
Abs: When they first said to me, are we going to, you know, we're going to do group work. I was just like, I don't want to go do group work. I don't, I don't want to hear other people's shit. Thank you very much. I'm not interested. It was the most transformative work that I did. And it, and also it was part of, you know, again, it's part of why I'm, why I'm here is being able to witness each other, be with each other, to kind of see each other's like, Oh my God.
Okay. So that's, what's coming up for you. All right. Okay. So I'm really not alone in this. God, I thought I was the only weirdo on the block. You know. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it's really powerful. And, and this other thing that you're hitting on, which is like having to, I guess that's it, the commodification of, of things that we're not getting out of living in the way that we do and relating in the, in the, in the way that we have been, or, or is held up as a model of how we hold relationship or be in your close relationship.
Nicole: I know. I know.
Abs: It's pretty sad, you know.
Nicole: Yeah.
Abs: It's, it's, yeah, and um, and I guess that's also why I'm here and talking to you. Right. Because I just feel like, you know, that's That's also I appreciate that, you know, you're helping people to really just go, okay, right. Okay. There's different ways of doing things.
Okay. People out there doing the same thing. Okay. Right. So they have it, you know. Right. Yeah. I feel like that's also why I wanted to spend time with you. Participating.
Nicole: Yeah. I'm so thankful that you did.
Abs: Yeah, thank you for doing what you do.
Nicole: Of course. I think like you, I share a similar feeling of, Oh, I wish I could have found this podcast when I was first starting.
Whoa. What a transformation it would have been to listen to conversations like this, to hear people who were thinking about this, because. You know, again, we're talking about how you grow in relationship. And for in my own journey, I didn't have anybody around me doing this at the beginning, right? So the power of tapping into a meta relationship, like a podcast, of course, there is not the back and forth dynamic that we really need in community.
But when you're first starting, it can be such an essential growth space to hear these ideas to start. Start latching on to them and then to know that another world is possible, right? Every time that I bring relationship anarchists on this, this space, right? It's a reminder that you're not alone. It's a reminder that you are not the only person exploring these things and the, you know, somatic feeling that can bring in your body to know that you're not alone.
That same experience you had in group therapy, Oh, transformative.
Abs: Yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah, short circuit. I like the idea of, I guess everyone's, you know, sort of let go and go. Everyone's on their path. It's the idea that somehow some of that pain and suffering can be short circuited through, you know, Through feeling connected and seeing, yeah,
Nicole: if I've learned anything in therapy, that's yes, right there to be seen to understand that you're not alone and that you're in relationship with people and that that's the magic sauce, right?
It's not the things I say. It's not the special words. It's being with people and having that relationship to know that. Oh, yeah. And I know at the beginning you had said there are a lot of difficulties and we're at that point now of the research of what are the difficulties that you've experienced with relationship anarchy
Abs: shared understanding of what it means right as a relationship, you know, as in, because I also find that some of the sort of framework, particularly sort of polyamorous framework and sort of hierarchical nature of things challenging.
To be with, but I feel like that is a language that is perhaps better understood and maybe helps people feel a bit more secure. So one of the people that I'm relating with is that in, in relationship anarchy, and this is probably not the first time it's come up, it's like, all right, so you're a relationship anarchist.
You just get to do what the fuck you like and everyone else has to kind of dance to your tune. And I'm like, whoa, that is absolutely not how I see it. Um, you know, this is very much a collaborative, right? What do we want to do here? How does this, you know, but actually making sure that we sort of are on the, at least we might not be singing the same tune, but released on the same page, you know, the same sheet is a good start.
It does, you know, I think Betty and I were talking about it and saying that I do get it why people on dating sites will say, you know, preferred that you have experience of You know, because it's a lot of emotional legwork, you know, and, and that's why one relations, this is why I say about the few weeks of rage, but, you know, one of the people I was relating with really closely, intimately last year, um, at the beginning of the year, I had to say to them, look, you know, I just, I feel like every time I raise something where I think, Hey, we might need to look at this, you're going into like, you know, massive fear state and kind of just don't want to do it.
I need to be able to have these discussions. I think we need to be able to have these discussions and I don't have the chutzpah energy to do this work for you.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Abs: Um, I, I don't, I don't want to. And then five months later after that, they're like, they're still operating from a place of hurt. And they'd sort of, you know, because they said, are you coming to my birthday celebrations?
And they just reeled out, you know, I'm still operating from a place of hurt and this is a big message diatribe and the thing that infuriated me, I was like, you've been holding on to this for five months. Yeah. And not said a word. Yeah. What? What are you doing? Yeah, yeah. I mean, obviously, you know, it's, that's not compassionate at all, you know, it's like, poor you.
But right. So for me. May, I'm not, I can't, you know, this is probably where this is the person I was saying earlier. I think we probably just need to let each other go for now.
You go do what you need to do and I'll seek out the people where I kind of feel like I, there's a level of understanding and work and commitment where, you know, I don't need to do, to have to reach so far to create that understanding.
So, I think that's the difficult part because. Sometimes there's just, there's, there's so many, I mean, God, there are just so many gorgeous human beings. Oh, yeah. There are so many. And, and not all of, you know, we're not going to necessarily hit those spots with all of them. And that's okay.
Nicole: Yeah.
Abs: And it's okay to be able to say, hey, you know, let's kind of let each other go in a way that is, Loving, kind, and also just know that that's also part of the dialogue is being able to say, I think this isn't for me or right.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And I think my favorite part of relationship anarchy is then having that. Standard of clear communication about what you're feeling about the struggles, the difficulties as well, the joys across all of my relationships. I think in the past, I would have only expected this out of my romantic and sexual connections and friends were, you know, whatever they're, they're.
Just friends, so I don't need them to communicate with me at this level to get into a space where I will not be in connection with you if you cannot communicate with me, or I'll maybe asterix that I will not be in close connection with you. We might have a wider, broader orbit of what our connection can look like, but there is no way that you're getting even close into the inner circle, because a lot of my work as a therapist, I'll be dealing with clients who.
Are so anxious and walking on eggshells with their relationship saying, like, I just don't know what's going on. I'm not sure. And I will say, have you talked to them about it? And they say, no, I'm like, okay, well, step 1, let's talk and or the opposite of I've tried to talk about it. And my partner says, it's fine.
And then 6 months later, they say, well, this whole time, you know, it will drive you insane. The fact that that person held that for that amount of time. And now you have no idea every day what else they might be holding. And so when you are anxious, that makes sense because you're in a dynamic where they're not freely communicating with you.
The best anxiety relief is to take that deep breath and say, wow, I feel like maybe there's something in the relationship, but. We actually communicate so well that I know they would tell me if there was a dynamic going on. So one, I could ask or I can acknowledge that maybe this is my own stuff and they're just going to tell me and that is such an ease.
And so it breaks my heart when I see people say, why am I so anxious? What's wrong with me? I'm like, you're dynamic. There is not a free flow of conversation here. So, of course. You're going to feel anxious.
Abs: Because energetically it's there. And so, but I always, I do always have this thing of like, and again, somebody who I'm relating with closely, we just talked about this, you know, what do I, do I need to share or raise everything?
And then I'm just like, you know, when is it that, you know, I put out something and it becomes something that somebody else focuses on or gives it life or, you know, but whatever, even if I don't say it, it's still there as a thought. You know, it's something that I'm. feeding. It's so in a way, I just think, you know, unless it's just sort of brain farting all over the place, lay it out there.
You know, something has, something has happened and I check this out and kind of let it go. It takes the energy out of it.
It's sort of, it's what we've got, isn't it? We've, we've got, I mean, okay, there are many ways of communicating, but for us to sort of get a level of understanding, we have to verbalize, we have to sort of.
Express. Right. In some way.
Nicole: Right. The story I'm telling myself is that you don't like me anymore. Can we talk about this? Because I, I just want to check in, right? What a world. What a transformative world, you know, and how much Faster we can come back into connection because you're right when we have those thoughts and I, I appreciate the distinction between like brain farts because there could be some level where maybe you're frustrated with someone and it's actually very loving to take a deep breath and not just blatantly say, what the fuck are you doing?
I'm just curious, you know, like, I think there's there is some abstracts to that, but, um, within that benefit of the doubt here when we're speaking. It is what keeps us in a relationship. So I have this anxious thought. I'm going to bring it into our dynamics so that we can reconnect versus I'm going to hold it in here and now I'm disconnected.
I'm having all this up in here. Oh no, oh no, oh no, oh no. And again, everything I trained in psychology was very relational, and it would say that that is the relational paradox of when we feel like there's something that we could put into the relationship that could cause disconnection, we will hold it inside and then hold it, which is where shame Fear and a lot of our psychological distress comes from right is I'm feeling this reaction.
I cannot put this into the relationship because it's going to threaten disconnection. So I'm going to hold it all in here. But then that causes its own disconnection. Right? Because you're no longer in that dynamic. And now we're in distress versus 1 of the biggest things is just really getting curious about.
Oh, I have this thought I can't share that. Who says that? Why? Right? Right. Why? And, and of course, again, brain farts. We don't want to always just release every single first thought that we have, but can we get curious about who said I can't? Did someone say emotions are weak? Did someone say that vulnerability is dangerous?
Have you experienced that in your dynamics? Right? How can we get curious about what is holding us back from expressing more of these tender parts?
Abs: Yeah. And it's even the smallest things with just sort of, I've got a, a person staying at the moment and it's like, I have to say that I have to ask these questions and say these things.
They will feel it. They will feel it anyway.
Nicole: Yeah.
Abs: That's it. Previous podcast, I think it was, well, I think it was someone else just sort of being able to ask for a little, you know, going that step of someone else possibly, but asking the small things. You know, just making requests, knowing it's okay to make requests.
It's okay to keep making requests, express, make requests. Somebody might say no. Somebody might say yes, but not all of it, or do you know what I mean? But sort of staying in a state of fear around what may or may not happen when you release that. Yeah. Again, I guess that that's also part of the practice, hey, Nicole, because I feel like, you know, growing up with.
You know, a codependent parent as in a single parent family where to say what I wanted, needed, or to express was not safe. Yeah. You know, because love her, absolutely adore her, was just under so much pressure.
Nicole: Yeah.
Abs: That she could, didn't have the capacity to, to tend in that way. Um, and this is also what I feel is, you know, this is why systemically we're buggered and what we were talking about, about not living with others.
Right.
Nicole: You know. Right.
Abs: Right.
This person had to raise kids on their own, work three jobs, da da da. And how many people are doing this?
Nicole: Yeah.
Abs: You know, and doing it alone and I, that's the other thing is, when we find our way back to each other and know how to connect with each other, we don't have to do these things alone.
We know we can ask for things and support one another within the capacity that we all have.
Nicole: Right.
Abs: You know, no one's going to. It's not about living someone else's life for them, or, you know, completely, or not, or supporting in a way that means that you're not able to support yourself, but it is about sort of what can we give to each other really freely and easily that means we can support each other.
And I think, I think that sense of what that means is. It's what I come back to through relationship anarchy,
Nicole: you know,
Abs: it's like there's teaching, there's learning, and it's preparing for changing those systems and preparing for doing things differently to not subscribing to something that, that really doesn't work.
It's quite harmful to our very existence.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. There's so much understanding you have to have for your mom, right? The context, all those jobs, the difficulty of all that, right? Just imagining a whole different world where she's in community and has support and isn't working all those jobs to think about the ways that she would have showed up differently.
And then to think about the ways that you then would have showed up differently. And then all, you know, Oof, there's so much grief in that. And so then feeling the collective vibration of that for all people and our collective, you know, we're all one humans. We usually living on this planet to think about that level of vibrational change.
Oof, right. That's a whole different world.
Abs: This is what, this is what we feel we are doing is, is we're unpacking so that we can actually, you know, relationally do things differently. This, you don't have to live in this way. You can survive in different ways. Yeah, it's funny because I get also get a little bit of a frustration of like, but you know, why can't we do this now?
We've got it. There's a track. It's a transition. No.
Nicole: Yeah.
Abs: An immediate kind of, it's a, it's like a gentle transition. So, yeah, practicing patience is right,
Nicole: right. Practice and all is coming. We're practicing. We're practicing. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, the next question too, is what are some of the joys that you've experienced with relationship anarchy?
Abs: I love feeling the different parts of me,
Nicole: sure.
Abs: Satiated by different relationships. Um, and sometimes on a very intimate, close level. the capacity that I have to love in so many different, different ways on a different levels, the closeness and the joy that's experienced when I am vulnerable and someone else moves into that vulnerable space.
We do, we do that together and then we've, you know, piss ourselves laughing or cry or whatever, um, to kind of move that through. And it is that sort of knowing the challenges and the tough times of the practice. to really experience what that brings that how much joy that can bring the diversity the range the richness i'm so grateful to all the folks that have been with me around me in the sort of bringing me to where i am today oh yeah it's it's sort of there are lots Of them.
And I think that's it. It's just that that way that we can hold and support one another. And that's our humanity. That's our kind of, that's our essence. I think we can do that with each other for each other. Gives me such great love for people. You know, I think it's sort of, you know, we have a media and a sort of mass media world that would have you believe that everyone's out to, you know, and rip you off and whatever.
Yeah. Fundamentally, they're not. They're really not. It's a tough existence, the one that we've made for ourselves right now. We're gradually piggling that away. There's just, yeah, my, it's sort of, again, heartfelt stuff is kind of just like, there's such potential for us to be so much more than we are, you know, and I mean that not in a kind of, you know, accumulative sense, but in a sort of expansive sense.
Nicole: I want to be with that and all the beauty of that and, and ask you, you know, in honor of what you had talked about when we first started, when you step into that space of joy, what do you feel in the body?
Abs: You know, it's just, it's ease. It's like peace and an ease. With that. Yeah. I know what it feels like to not have that.
So when I think about, it's just lovely to be asked that question. Thank you. Yeah, I feel, I feel a real peace in my body.
Nicole: Yeah. May all people know that piece, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Abs: Yeah.
Nicole: And the last question is, what do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy?
Abs: You can do it too.
Nicole: Yeah.
Abs: Yeah. You can, you can do this too.
There's something in this for you. Yeah, it's a way of doing things that brings us all closer to each other.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And honoring what you had said about your yoga practice, the days where you say, what the fuck? I can't make it onto the mat today. No, like, there's just no way I'm doing this today.
I just can't. Right. honoring those moments. The amount of times I've had that too, where I'm like, Oh, can I just go back to the previous consciousness where it was this clear plan of what I was doing? Because that was like, somehow way more simple than this. Can I go back? And then the painful reality of.
No, I actually can't go back. Once you've been opened up, there is no going back to the matrix. Oh, no, but, but honoring that reality, right? That there are absolutely days where you're going to be like, what the hell am I doing?
Abs: But also knowing that in the relationships that I've chosen, and how I've built them, you know, yesterday had a real sort of meltdown day.
Do it. three, four people that I was able to reach out, you know, who were just so on the page with me in different ways. I felt so supported, so supported. It was just incredible. And, and that's because of how we've been building and designing the level of intimacy and care with each other. And, and keeping it really real.
It's like, you know, I'm properly, you know, I think, I feel like I'm totally losing my shit today. All this is happening. And, you know, and just no one's going to live my life for me, but they can just hold those little bits of me. I guess it was a real moment of, okay, this is why I'm going through the, the practice, the challenges, the effort, and the work of this type of thing.
Relating
Nicole: so so true you have that community you have those people the amount of again as a therapist what I often see when I have to press clients is a significant lack of community if I were to ask him that same question of who could you call today to talk about this. No one, I don't think I could talk to anybody about this.
Abs: Right. So it's like our deepest, but that's the thing is it's, it's this idea that you have got something that is unique to you that you need to be ashamed of. Yeah. That no one else has this thing. That's right. Failing because you are that, you know, you have to hide this. And that is, you know, again, my heart breaks with it because I'm so, oh, to me, you know, please, please, please, that you could see that you, you're not alone.
Nicole: Mm-hmm.
Abs: That you could see this, that you could feel this.
Nicole: Yeah.
Abs: And that you could realize that you can be with folks who kind of are practicing. They can, you know, you can be supported.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Hmm. .
Abs: But it does, it takes discernment. Huh. And it takes some learning and some cocking up and some, you know. I think that's, that's it.
And again, it's not something where I'm saying to you, Hey, I've got this nailed up, you know, yoga practice. Yeah. I have, I will never have this nailed. I will, I will dedicate myself to the ongoing practice.
Nicole: Today.
Abs: Yeah. And again tomorrow. Yeah. And hopefully tomorrow. Right. But you know, for right now, this is what.
Nicole: We're right here. Right now. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm so grateful for you for coming on to the podcast and being an example of that vulnerability and that openness and that love. And so I'm really, really grateful to have had you here and for trusting me in the container.
Abs: Thanks, Nicole. Yeah, it's good to share it.
Nicole: As we come towards the end of our time, I'll take another deep breath with you. And I'll ask you the last question that I ask everyone on the podcast. And that is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Abs: Fucking up.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Ain't that the truth? Woo! Woo!
Abs: Yeah. You're okay with that, you know?
Cut yourself some slack. Mess up. Repair.
Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. And then the growth that can come from that compassionate frame of understanding our growth edges, rather than the spiral of, Oh, I messed up. I'm never, Oh no, Oh no, Oh no. Versus I did mess up. This is a space I'm growing in. Let me get on the horse again. Right. And here we go. Right.
That's such a different frame. And so I really appreciate you inviting all of us to have that compassion and, uh, honoring of our humanness, the ways we mess up. And yeah, just the beauty of, at least in my life, when I've seen people who named that, it inspired me, right? The people who say, Oh, I messed up. Oh, you can mess up and be okay and still be loved.
Whoa. Right. So just trusting in the ripples of that as people who are tuning into this, right. When we own that, when we name that in our dynamics, there are ripples that you will never even know. Yeah. Oof. You know? Yeah.
Abs: Yeah. I think, I think that's it. It's okay. Own it. And what he wants to repair.
Nicole: Yeah,
Abs: there really is such beauty in that.
I'm fallible too. I'm not perfect.
Nicole: Yeah.
Abs: And that's okay.
Nicole: Right. That's what it means to be human. Yeah. Well, thank you Abs. It's been such a joy to have you on the podcast today. Thank you.
If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast. And head on over to modernanarchypodcast. com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
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