Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole. On today's episode, we have Taune Lyons. Join us for a conversation about expanding our capacity to feel love.
Together we talk about how we grow in relationships, co creating relationship agreements, and enjoying the inevitability of change. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.
My name is Nicole, I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice. Supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear listener, Relationships, relationships, relationships.
I will always be talking about the power of relationships to create your reality, to create your sense of self, right? Regardless of what relationship structure you practice, monogamy, non monogamy, relationship anarchy, right? All of us have multiple relationships. Whether they're platonic, romantic, sexual, familial, right?
We all have multiple relationships. And especially this time of year with the holidays, we are all feeling that as we go back to see family and maybe parts of our younger selves, you know, regression. It comes back because we are again looking into the mirrors, these relationships, these other people that will reflect different parts of ourselves.
And so, you know, today's episode, we talk about feeling into the love of all of your relationships, not just romantic, not just your sexual relationships. All. Of. Your. Relationships. And I studied in Relational Cultural Theory, which is a very, uh, feminist update to the field of psychology, and one of the books that I read for my studies and am reading again is called This Changes Everything, The Relational Revolution in Psychology.
And one of the things that stuck out from my reading this week was the quote that you need good relationships. Our society often has this very individual push. You need to find yourself, you need to figure out who you are, you need to be independent, you need to be self reliant, and everything that RCT teaches would say you actually need good relationships to leave the bad.
It's not this go off on your own adventure solo journey. It's that you need good relationships. Good relationships to leave the bad and so I hope for you dear listener that wherever you find yourself in the world That you can continue to follow The good relationships in your life that you can continue to build Good relationships, and that you can feel the pleasure of those deep, fulfilling relationships in your life, and know that this space will be here for you to continue unpacking and exploring and learning more about all the ways that relationships form our reality.
Dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources at https: Modernanarchypodcast. com linked in the show notes below. And I want to say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.
So thank you. If you want to join the Patreon community, Get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration? Then you can head on over to patreon. com slash modern anarchy podcast, also linked in the show notes below. And with that, dear listener, Please know that I am sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.
Well, then the first question I like to ask each guest is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Taune: How would I introduce myself to listeners? Well, I'd say that I am somebody who's devoted to intimacy, um, and that's what led me to the path of becoming a licensed therapist is people are endlessly fascinating to me.
And I think connection is something that is generally not talked about enough, including just. Thank you. You know, emotionally understanding ourselves and connecting to ourselves and each other and the non human world too. And, um, I feel like on my own journey that the connection to my body has been a huge part of my own inner liberation and empowerment in a healthy way.
Um, and it's something that I feel like is endlessly learnable. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I just love guiding people or being with people right next to them in their own process of, of inner and inner connection.
Nicole: Well, I'm excited to have you here and get to learn a little bit more about your liberation journey.
I mean, you're already starting to speak to it with your body. I'm curious, yeah, how are you living out liberation in your sex and relationship life? I love that question. Easy one, right?
Taune: Super easy. Just have a real easy answer. Well, the first thing that comes to mind is tracking triggers. That's been a huge source of liberation for myself and relationships close to me.
Um, I feel like choosing relationships that are challenging is actually a way that I feel more free, which is probably funny to put it that way. But I think it's really important for me to be able to challenge my assumptions about myself and the world and my biases. And unconscious biases and especially because I'm heteroflexible, but generally date men really being able to have deep relationships with men and being able to sit with triggers and emotionally regulate and co regulate continues to create.
Greater connection and understanding, which I think is just so powerful and healing.
Nicole: Oh, yeah. I mean intimacy is the hottest thing we've got, right? Actually, yeah Yeah, so i'm curious for you like what does that look like in those moments and your your dating and life yeah
Taune: Yeah, I mean, I think it depends On the other person and myself and the relationship that we have and the comfort is that's there, you know You And actually not just with the dating because my friendships, I think of often as life partnerships too.
And so being able to speak to my need at times to go for a walk or to need to come back to something has been something that's really powerful for me. And also to be on the receiving end of that too. Um, just because I grew up where I actually would prefer to grow up this way. Then like the opposite, but anyway, I have like a very loud, passionate family.
And so repair is really necessary and there's like yelling and passion and whatever, and I think in some ways that has made my life easier to be able to be with lots of different kinds of people. But in other ways, it's like, well, sometimes we need a break in order to get to more of a calm, reflective space to connect, because what we may say in the moment is actually probably going to be more.
More of a triggered space of saying extremes, pushing away that kind of thing.
And my own journey moving away from that, that looks like just really speaking to the sensations in my body. Like if somebody says something incredibly hurtful to me, instead of firing back on them. Now I try to say like, you know, I feel a lot of tension in my chest right now.
And there's this maybe desire to want to hurt you back, but I want to take some time for myself and like. Come to a place where we can understand each other better. And generally that's led to more repair than a sort of tit for tat. You're an asshole. I'm an asshole kind of thing.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we're just thinking about even, you know, the neuro aspects of it.
When we're in the activated state, we know we're not in our prefrontal cortex. We're doing the majority of our thinking, you know, we're activated in that fight Flight fear, um, fight, flight, freeze, fawn, right? So we're not even in the part of our brain that's able to make those deeper decisions. And so being able to have that moment with the body to tune in and feel that first.
And I liked what you had said, even instead of trying to name it in a cognitive way, just being like, Oh, I'm, I'm feeling this tightness in my chest, right? Like I need a moment. Instead of trying to search for the words of the, what, of the, what, of the, what? Nope. I'm feeling this and we don't have to even go into the cognitive.
We can actually just stay right there and work with what's coming up right there.
Taune: Yes, yes, absolutely. And not making meaning in that moment for it.
Nicole: Yeah.
Taune: Hard to do. So hard. It's hard to do. Yeah. Yeah. Especially if I feel like in certain relationships, and this is very common experience too, I'll be scanning for ways that somebody doesn't care about me.
Nicole: Mm.
Taune: And so in that moment, you know, if you're have more of an insecure attachment strategy in that moment, it could be like, oh, this person doesn't care about me. So I'm going to shut down, go away, leave not just for an hour or something, but for forever. Or I'm going to attack them because they don't care, whatever.
Right. So like, just being able to understand, like, that is actually my trigger. It's my trigger.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. And, you know, when we're, uh, I'm going to leave first, I'm going to get out the door first. It's to save ourselves, right? I don't want to get hurt by this person, so I'm going to run out first. I'm going to leave them before they can even get to me.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, right? Yeah. Like, we're trying to, we're like trying to keep ourselves safe, you know? Yes. And, uh, I'm just thinking about, like, the early childhood dynamics that kind of prep us for this, right? As much as I. You know, want to, you know, push back on Freud and all of his theories. You got some stuff, right?
You know, damn. So just thinking about those early childhood relationships, right? If you're, you know, parents were, you know, stable most of the time, and then randomly, sporadically yelled at you uncontrollably, you're always going to be scanning the environment. Okay. Is this the time that they're actually secretly going to explode at me?
Is this the time maybe if your parents were avoidant, like, Oh, they're just going to leave. I know they're just going to leave and not be there for me. We get these relational patterns that get ingrained with us. And it's not just parents, right? It's any caretaker, right? Grandparents, family, extended people, just relationships that kind of build these templates that we take into our lives.
And then our bodies, our mind are so wise again. I'm going to leave this person before they can leave me. Okay. Try and keep ourself safe, right? But it's hard to to really Disentangle that to find out where the trigger was enough to slow down To stay in relationship, right?
Taune: Yes Yes, yeah Absolutely. I think one of the things that's really helped me with that is something that a meditation teacher weren't sure to with me He focuses kind of on interpersonal neurobiology in his meditations, which I think is really cool Really interesting, but he shares that on the dating or relationship journey, the most important thing that we can do is choose somebody who also is working towards having securely attached relationships or in Jessica Fern, who wrote Polly's caroling book, like having an attachment based relationship.
So whether it's a friend or grandmother or. Or parent or lover, you know, being able to know well, they are committed to this being an attachment based relationship. So when that trigger comes up and I want to leave, I know that they're devoted to this too. So we can hold hands during it or whatever it is like coming back to the container of devotion, commitment and similar goal, I guess, and that's very helpful.
Nicole: Totally. Yeah. Absolutely to know that they're going to be there. No, you're on the same team. You're in the same space, right? Yeah. Yeah. It was really powerful. I recorded with Jessica Fern a few weeks ago and had a lot of fun. Yeah. Talking about just the attachments of relationships generally, right? More broadly and.
Particularly the limits on our attachment, right? Especially in the non monogamy space. There's a lot of discussion about, you know, infinite love, infinite capacities. And it's like, no, reality is that we're limited by our time and energy, particularly under a capitalistic system. Right. And so what does it mean in these attachment relationships?
Um, kind of like she had said, it's, you know, whether you have multiple partners, or if you have multiple children, right, and, or if you have multiple friends, no matter where you're at in these relational dynamics, you're going to hit the limits on your attachment, and so what does it mean to build these secure attachments with people?
Various amounts of people feel into what sort of capacities you have. And, and the way that those change over time, right? When you're in grad school, maybe you don't have all the time in the world. Right. Um, and how that evolves over time and how can we communicate with people openly about this? I mean, it's complex, but also it's one of the most beautiful aspects of what it means to be human, right?
Our, our relationships.
Taune: Yeah, absolutely. And how they deeply impact the rest of our lives. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Security is such a beautiful aim, I think. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. In relationships for other places in life. And I love the idea of containers being able to change throughout time too. Like if you're in grad school or whatever it is, right.
Being able, like, to know capacity and, and to be able to verbalize that and have a partner or partners be able to get their needs met or you get your needs met or whatever in other places.
Nicole: Totally. Yeah. And I think about the, uh, even before we were talking about the meanie making, mmm, mmm, right? Like, I can be holding hands with that person that's committed to that deep attachment with me.
But if my meanie making, my narrative about them. It will shift, right? They do one little thing and then now my narrative is, sure, we're holding hands, but eventually they're going to leave me. Like just that narrative of being able to watch. It's crazy, right? Just being able to watch, like, what sort of narrative you're saying about your partner.
And I think this are the people in your life, right? More generally, because again, these are all of our relationships. And I think it comes out when other people ask you about that dynamic, whether it's a therapist or a friend or other person, they're like. Oh, how's that relationship going? And then you start to share the narrative of who this is, right?
And you can kind of see maybe even in your journaling, right? But the different ways that our brain will start to construct stories of who the other person is, and they're not always true, right?
Taune: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um, Terry Real, the relationship couples therapist guy, I love his work. Um, he talks about how in marriages, but in couples or, or throuples or whatever sort of relationship dynamic there is, we will often have like the worst, worst, worst Possible view of the other person.
And that's like in your back pocket when you're in a fight where you're like, well, you're actually this terrible thing. And there generally is some amount of truth to it. And that's why it sits with us. But we have to be able to be aware of it, communicate it in a loving way, because I don't want to be told a terrible, awful 2 percent true about me when you're angry at me.
But actually being able to talk about those projections and the fear is also incredibly liberating because otherwise it's this sort of secret festering under the surface that comes out when we're feeling insecure.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Absolutely. Which is where I like some of the practices of relationship check ins, right?
I feel like I haven't instated anything that formal in my dynamics, but it is something that once it's out there, I hit a point of like a spiral free fall of some sort of narrative. I usually come to whoever I'm with and saying, Hey, look, you know, I just want to check in. I want to touch reality here with you.
I'm going to touch grass with you. Okay. Like this is where my brain is going. Is this accurate? Right. And, and the frame with that comparative coming to them being like, Hey, you're doing this and you're ruining that. Right. Versus. Yeah. Okay. And having these thoughts and I'm curious if this is true and where you're at, right?
That just sets us up for a very different conversation that will hopefully keep us closer rather than fighting, right?
Taune: Yes, and remembering you're on the same team, just like what you said a moment ago. Because when I'm in that place. Of the circulating or circular thoughts rather. I don't feel like we're a team.
I feel like you're against me and you're pretending that you want to hold my hand. Right. Exactly. All the ways you might be. Everyone else knows, you know, but not me. Like there's all these different narratives that I often wonder if, if they're attributed to our earliest sexual experiences that we had, um, which I think is a reason why sexual healing or kink or just.
I Or just, yeah, conscious, intentional sexuality can be really healing to almost rewire those. Oh, yeah. And go back. Yeah.
Nicole: I'm curious if you have any personal lived experience that might be kind of like speaking to that for you.
Taune: Yeah, I mean, I see it. Well, first of all, I just see it. I see it all the time with clients and that just becomes their lived reality that they kind of play out in their couples.
Like if you have an idea about your, about somebody that fits an old pattern, right? But then you see it in the present and you think you see it, but it's really not that. So for me, my first sexual relationship, I was not in a monogamous partnership and I was the other woman. Um, and.
Nicole: Consensually or?
Taune: It was not consensual.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um, and I was 16 and it was with somebody who was in a long distance relationship.
So he had been with somebody for a bunch of years since they were really little, I guess, but, but their partner lived in a different state.
Nicole: Yeah.
Taune: So it was complex. We were young, you know, talk about non monogamy and polyamory wasn't a thing we've written.
Even, it seemed like everybody wanted monogamy, but he was still with her and she knew that things were happening. It was a whole situation that was really awful, though.
Nicole: Yeah.
Taune: For all of us. Totally. And there was like a lot of secrets and a lot of, you're not the chosen one. Oof. And or, you know, or like it flips and flops, that kind of thing.
And it was an incredibly painful first experience for me where that unrequited feeling came up. And that's been a blueprint that I've really had to do work around and really, really understand deeper because I would scan for ways that people didn't. Love me, didn't want to be with me. And then after that partnership, I was in a partnership, right?
That wasn't a partnership. But after that dynamic, I was in a partnership for almost 11 years from also 16 to nearing 27. That was. Largely monogamous and even in that relationship, I would scan for ways that I wasn't here because in the beginning of that relationship, he had cheated on me a bunch. Um, you know, just that kind of dynamic of betrayal.
Yeah, good enough and not being chosen and being hidden and finding out things like there's all of that kind of sensation and constriction inside of me or used to be. So that those are triggers that will come up in relationship if I'm not mindful of the story that's running
and able to be vulnerable in that moment about what's going on.
Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you for sharing and trusting me. me to hold the space for your story. Yeah, I can imagine it makes sense, right? Just in the ways that our early childhood dynamics teach us about love and what to expect that we could think similarly about sex, right? Those first couple of experiences you're learning to Again, make meaning of a stimulus, right?
Plus all of the fun cocktail of, uh, neurochemicals going on with oxytocin and all of that going on when we have that great release in the body. Right? So just thinking about that experience and how it gets paired into our body, mind, soul. And then to carry that on to future relationships. I mean, it makes so much sense.
And again, the ways that we're trying to keep ourselves safe in that dynamic. I think it's really hard with clients when you hear and myself included, right? Like just the ways that we might attack ourselves. Oh, there, here I am again. Here I am doing this. Right. And it's like, oh man, like we're trying to keep ourselves safe.
Again, we're scanning for that moment of where they're going to leave us or, you know, Where they're going to abandon us because it's happened in the past. And so if I can catch it this time, maybe it will hurt less, right? And so just having compassion for ourselves in those moments when we are feeling activated, triggered, whatever, whatever words we want to say lost in the narrative, right?
It's always coming from a place of, of wanting to keep ourselves safe and the compassion that we can have for ourselves in those moments.
Taune: Yeah, absolutely. And also the compassion for the other person too. I mean, I think self compassion and, um, self empathy is incredibly important. So we feel full of our own, um, validation before compassion for another person.
But, you know, I've also been the person who cheats or whatever it is, you know, it's just like, And the fact also is is that in relationships, somebody is going to leave. It's not like we're never going to be abandoned. Somebody is going to die or we're going to die. So I think coming to terms with that and relationships and having compassion for ourselves and our reaction to that.
And having compassion for somebody else and their reaction to that very real reality. It's almost like we're just scared of death and relationships are a reminder anytime that we love each other, that death is inevitable, right?
Nicole: Right. The uncontrollables. We don't know. We don't know how long we'll have with these people.
Right. And so kind of looking that in the face, I think is a scary place for most people. We want that security. We want that grounding, of course.
Taune: Yeah, it's such a part of our culture not to look at death, just to pretend that we're going to be young and happy and in love forever.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah, rather than embracing the inevitability of change and what that can mean, as painful and as beautiful as it is.
And I think it's hard too, because we grow in relationships, right? So we thrive. There's a therapeutic relationship right there, right? You know, but we all grow in relationships. And so. When I think back to, you know, my younger self and the way I was showing up in relationships, which is just funny because I'm here right now, but I'm sure in 10 years, I'll be like, damn, Nicole back then, nothing, nothing, you know, uh, so we have compassion along the journey.
But, um, when I look back to my younger self, there is no way that I would have dated my younger self right now with where I'm at, right? Like, I would look at her and be like, okay. Oh, like, wow, she's stressed. She's, she's anxious. She's figuring out a lot. Like, I wish her the best. Right? Like, but I would feel in my body such an imbalance now with how grounded I am.
And I, and I often feel that sometimes moving through the world where I'll meet people, honestly, whether it's platonic, romantically, sexually, any sort of them. And you just kind of like feel where they're at in their nervous system and how they talk about themselves, how they talk about the world. And I'm like, yeah.
No, right? Like I'm not interested in connecting to that capacity. Um, and it, and it kind of creates this, this distancing to some degree, but there's still, I, I want to pull all people in, but like, there's a level of like, I just can't get close to you because of where they're at or what or what they're going through, you know?
Taune: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like discernment is important for you in your own capacity.
Nicole: Of course. Yeah, right. But how do we heal collectively, right? Like, it's just an interesting question. How do we heal collectively in, in community rather than in therapeutic rooms in just one-off relationships? It's always a deep question for me of like, what does it mean to hold on to people in that way rather than discard them?
'cause you see that they're going through a difficult space and, and the privilege of getting to where I've gotten with my degree and other things like you, right? This way that we look at the world is very different. And so then like feeling that often as I move through the world.
Taune: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a really interesting inquiry for me.
I think about how capacity is ever changing, you know, like, I don't know. And yeah, like even when I'm going through trauma or somebody who's going through trauma, just even in one day, that capacity could shift. And so then I wonder like, what needs of mine aren't getting met then if this person doesn't have the capacity, do they, you know, and do they want to shift it?
Nicole: Um, Yeah, it's hard to say hard to say and because I mean, I think particularly even just Staying on the topic of sex and relationships like I had grown up very Purity culture don't have sex till you're married. I had the purity ring and then I Quote and quote failed that and had sex beforehand and felt horrible.
You can imagine the whole thing, right? No one's gonna ever want me. I'm worthless. I'm useless all that fun stuff. You know It was absolutely awful. And I call purity culture, a trauma, you know, and an abusive structure for what it is. Right. So, um, but that, I think that's part of the, the trauma narrative I've really like healed from.
Thank. Thankfully to this podcast space where I've had so many different conversations about it, that have been so lovely and things like kink and all my burning at the stake scenes and shame play that has been really lovely to get that out of my body. Right. Um, but after that I went through, um, a sexual assault experience.
It was like very much. So like I had sex once, twice, three times, never again, thought I was going to be a born again, virgin, and then had a sexual assault. So my world is pretty radically. Shifted and then in that experience, I tried to really date that person afterwards to create a relationship to try and like, have it not be the sort of using of sex and me and my body to be like, well, if we date now we could have a relationship and so then sex got deeply paired in this dynamic of like security.
This is how I'm keeping this person in my life and my pleasure wasn't centered and I was used to it. giving so much going through painful experiences. So now when we look at that through all of my dating and like the amount of other people I've dated who have, have, I don't want to say dealt with, but like dealt with me, like, you know, where I would be like, Oh my God, you know, like just unable to name what I wanted.
I would be so afraid if we were hanging out one day and we hadn't had sex together. That day, like, I'd be like, Oh, my God, they're gonna leave me. Oh, my God, they're gonna leave me. And I'd be going through panic. Right. And so it's just, it's kind of wild to think this is why I say, like, if I looked back on me, I don't think I would have been able to date me.
Right. But like, we go through this where we grow in the complexity, the messiness of this with other partners that were like right there along with me and held me in that, you know, it's so much growth.
Taune: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.
Nicole: Yeah.
Taune: Sounds really, it's vulnerable to share. I mean, not with me, but I mean, yes, also with me, but with a partner or friends or whoever's around to see that, to see that rawness.
It's, it's actually, I feel like such a beautiful thing. Because we could also just be buttoned up and pretend, and that doesn't feel like intimacy to me. In fact, that feels scarier.
Nicole: Totally. Totally. And if you're of a humanistic tradition in psychology, then you know, I think, the power of letting down. You know, this, like, I'm professional.
I'm this right to, like, be more human and real. And obviously, when we have clients, there's a very different container, right? We're not sharing all of our story in that space because we're holding the space for them. Right. Then when it is a podcast space. Right? You and I as two clinicians looking at each other, right?
Like we can talk about this here and have this here. And I think there's so much power, at least for me, when I've gone onto other podcasts and hear people talking about their traumas and their experiences and the way that it shaped them and how that, you know, moves forward in their narrative. And even for us, when we get to hear clients, like we have such a privileged view of hearing more Of the human psyche that makes me move through the world differently when I hear all of my clients saying I'm anxious to talk to people and make new friends when I go into a new friend space.
I'm like, okay, everyone feels the same way. It's cool, right? Like, like, you and I belong. Totally. So I think it's really powerful. Like when you can share your experience, right. About being cheated on or the cheater. And I can talk about my trauma experience. These are things that I know so many people have experienced, but because of our culture and, you know, having to put it all together and the complexities, it's sometime, like you said, we're buttoned up and we have to be buttoned up to survive.
But what does it mean to kind of like. Let that down and show these more vulnerable, raw human sides of ourselves.
Taune: Yeah, absolutely. And then like the beauty of radical acceptance gets to come in. And my hope is that then these things won't get enacted again. Truly be held and including the shame around it, really seen and loved and grow into something that's more life giving.
I think the challenging thing for me, though, and I don't know if you experienced this, but about being a therapist and then being on podcasts is that clients or potential clients will listen to them sometimes. So, yes, the space for them is for them, but then when they have more information. I wonder if some of what they share gets crafted, um, in order to attune to me.
And as, you know, I work with a parentified child often, so there's that wonder that I have of this space is for you. Boundaries are very important to me as a clinician that it's about them. So that's been something that's been a bit challenging for me to kind of come to terms with. Totally.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah, I think it makes sense.
I do know some of my clients have heard the podcast and so I can only imagine how that shifts their perspective. And I think it's interesting to try and think about paradigms of existence prior to the field of psychology, like, you know, um, Well, this feels like about a hundred years old, you know, like what did we do for centuries prior to this, right?
We, we lived in community and maybe we had a, a wise community grandmother, you know, and, and the reality is that she, you know, maybe, or he, or any gender would have like sat there and heard your story and listened to you and spoke to you maybe in similar ways that therapists or healers would have. For the mind, body, spirit, right?
And when we think about that, that, that elder was always in the community, right? It was never so much so outside. So it's a very interesting thing to think about this world of professionalism and capitalism and how we've created this, these boundaries, right? Um, compared to what we've done for centuries.
So I, I think like what you're hitting on there is like right there at that center of once they hear this, it does change how they see me. Yes. But it's interesting. Is that maybe the goal? And like an anarchist sense of getting outside of these rigid, like, you know nothing about me box, you know, it's a deep question.
Taune: Yeah, I mean, in some ways, absolutely. But then it's not a reciprocal relationship. Right? Chaos. And so that's again, like, that's, that's it right in a capitalistic society. I remember one of my previous therapists told me this is intense, but she was like, We get paid to love people, Tanya.
Nicole: Oh, totally. I think that and
Taune: right, so it's like, sure.
Like, yeah, there's an, there's a beautiful kind of way of kind of demolishing old structures, but then it's also within the confines of capitalism and I don't wanna like idealize that either.
Nicole: Yeah. How do you think that changes the context?
Taune: I think it changes it because we're seen through a very specific lens.
So if I'm on a podcast and I'm selling something.
Nicole: Yeah,
Taune: which in a way, even therapy is kind of, it's like icky to say it like this, but it's like, it's something that comes up clinically too. And I've experienced it from both ways. It's like, well, I pay you, I pay you to care for me. So from an attachment perspective, that's, that's, that's really challenging to, for the psyche to like hold sometimes.
And then also like, if you were on a podcast and then you're selling a book or whatever, like, I'm not saying not to do this or that I won't do it or whatever, but I just want to like, be real about it. But it is tough to come to terms with it.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. It's complicated.
Taune: It's complicated. I don't know that we're going to come up with the answers right now, but I do think it's important to acknowledge it.
Nicole: Totally. Yeah. The way it impacts things. And I hope it impacts it for the better. I think given what I know about at least the areas that I research of sex and relationships, there's not enough science. space talking about queer kinky relationship anarchists, right? And that many of the people who are listeners of this podcast are pleasure activists and radicals that have been harmed by the fields of psychology, right?
Harmed left and right to say that they're wrong. They're bad. We don't even need to talk about the DSM for having kink and other, you know, things in it, let alone the DSM three having homosexuality in it. Right? So I think there is a space to think about in terms of these topics, the necessariness to actually like stand here and be like, these things are good or, and they can be harmful.
Right. When we talk about psychedelics, when we talk about kink, we have to name the potential for drugs and these expansive experiences to also cause harm. Right. But. It can also cause healing, you know, and so the other side of it. And so I think it's really important to stand in these spaces. Yes, deal with the complexity of our clients, maybe knowing these things, but in the long term vision of changing the system and, and creating more space.
I hope it does at least, you're right. We don't know the full complexities, but I hope it does more good than bad, right?
Taune: Um, I really hope so too. I hope it lessens the othering. Right. Yeah. Of like, Oh, well, I'm a therapist or I'm a psycho. So, uh, you and your neuroses over there. Like, no, we are all fucked up in a beautiful way.
Nicole: Yeah. Right. We're all under the same systems that are messing with us. Right. That we don't even see that we have to continually unpack. Right.
Taune: Yes. Yeah. And then also can be, can be fun, you know, I think like. I don't know if you feel this way, but getting to work in the realm of love and relationships and sex and sexuality, I feel so excited and happy and juice to be able to get to do that work.
And I love the way that it feels in my body when I switch it to, I get to do it, you know, like Ram Dass once said something like you get to do it. Like, it's a great weight on you or you get to do it. Like, it's part of the dance and it's like, we get to do this. And previous generations were just taking the torch from, you know, thank you for the work that they did.
Um, yeah,
Nicole: absolutely. It's all about that frame of how you look at it. Right. And I talk about like Margaret Singer being arrested a hundred years ago, right. A hundred years ago, let alone that I can be like, Oh yeah, I practiced kink and I got fucked. Blah, blah, blah, blah. You know? And like, now I won't be arrested for that.
Just to even think about just even a hundred years. Right. 50 years in the 70s, women, women couldn't have credit cards in the United States, right? Like just, you know, I used a credit card to buy this damn model ago. I know. And I used a damn credit card to buy this microphone. I'm recording, you know, like, just think about like, Oh, wow.
Okay. So a hundred years ago, that was happening 50 years ago. That was happening. Wow. Right? Like the generations that are going to come after us to like, stand on our shoulders to like, continue this, this movement of the liberation of pleasure. Mm. I get excited about that. And I feel that in my bones, like, just to actually look at my death and think like, wow, okay, I'm going to die and other people are going to pick this up.
I don't, it gives me a lot of hope for future, you know, generations, given where I look at the previous people that stood before me, like, I couldn't have even claimed my queer identity without all the people that actively died, to be very clear, died, you know, through oppression for me to state that I'd be like, I'm here and I'm okay.
Okay.
Taune: Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah.
Taune: Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm, I just got chills. Yeah! It's powerful to be a part of that movement. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And I appreciate you acknowledging, too. Like, it's just, yeah, all the people before us, and I wish that they didn't have to die for that.
Nicole: Right. Yeah, exactly. But it's, it's exciting to be a part of the movers and shakers that see the beauty of relationships and how important they are, you know, like on our death bed, speaking about death, right?
Like we don't look back and think, I wish I would have made more money. You know, we look back and think, Was I loved and did I love the people around me, you know?
Taune: Yes. Yeah. And maybe also like, am I free? Like when I think of the money part, I'm like, well, what does money give us? Like freed freedom.
Really? And I, I also believe that's what love gets gives us too. Right? Like even the dependency paradox and all the attachment stuff says that the more secure we feel, the freer we actually feel to do things, to create, to adventure, to explore, to have pleasure.
Nicole: Yeah. Makes me think about like kids in the development when they know they have that secure attachment and they can go off and play to the playground knowing that they have a safe base, right?
Reminds me a lot of my experience with non monogamy, right? Same thing of like, I know my ability to go and play on the playground knowing where my home base is and my security.
Taune: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, in my experience, it's the same when we're adults,
unless we want to be incredibly hyper independent. But even then, I think it's more, you just turn off the attachment behavioral system. And yeah, that, that feels sad to me. Yeah.
Nicole: And I think even in those relationships and people are hyper independent, they're still attached, right? It might be. Yeah. Maybe bigger to, you know, the person who's living in a cabin in the middle of the woods, like they're attached maybe to the trees outside and the seasons that change and the river that's nearby.
Right. Their dog, like people can be attached to so many different things that are maybe even more expansive beyond just like humans. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So I think even thinking in that way of like, what does it mean to be attached to various places? Yeah. Um, spirits rather than just humans.
Taune: Absolutely. Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah.
Taune: Yeah. And awe, you know? Mm hmm. Yeah. The ability to be able to be connected to so much like again, like Jessica Fern talks about the nested model of attachment or interpersonal neurobiology It's the wheel of awareness that Dan Siegel talks about, like all of these ways that we're touched by and touch everything from, you know, the soil underneath our feet to the stars in the sky.
Like it's not a silly woo woo thing. It's a real actual experience that we all have of complete belonging, which is magical and healing. I think.
Nicole: Absolutely. When it's in that frame, right? Like when you see the world through that frame, not the, Oh my God, I got to get to this appointment and then this appointment and then this thing and that thing, and you're like rushing so fast that we don't even have the time to slow down and be present, you know, with what is, it's a lot like the, uh, psychedelic therapy work that I do, right.
We can have these beautiful experiences, but if we keep running, running, running, we never really integrate the beauty of that experience in a way that. Changes us and we can have so many psychedelic experiences. God, every one of these conversations I record is right. Like I meet a lovely, beautiful human from somewhere around the world, create a magical conversation.
And then I go on with my day and I just keep going. Right. I, I do get to integrate when I edit it, you know, many months later and feel it again, but like, what does it mean? I, at least for me, I continue to think about like, what does it mean to slow down and like feel? What is around me to be content with what is around me rather than constantly chasing that expansion process.
Taune: Oh my God. Yes. Sing it. Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah.
Taune: Because it can be addicting. Like the insight can be addicting. Even, you know, after I'm in my own therapy, I, I need to take I need to have takeaways. I need to journal because I was realizing I was doing brain spotting so much that I was like, it feels like I'm not integrating enough.
And I feel like, like I'm suspended in air after. And so I've done more takeaways with clients now, and that's been important too, because therapy can also be like that. It doesn't have to be, you know, an entheogenic medicine that, you know, just like you're saying, it could be a podcast, but are we totally.
Just even a moment. I know. In this moment, like we don't need to set aside, at least in my view, like 30 minutes to do it, but just like taking a moment to feel my hands or just like to take a couple of breaths or whatever. And we can do that even in a capitalistic society.
Nicole: Right. I know. I'm thinking about one of my partners and I were both reading, um, all about love by bell hooks.
Taune: Oh my God. One of the best books I've ever read in my life.
Nicole: Totally. Yeah. I really am enjoying the, uh, Concept of love and she takes this from her bell hooks takes this from another theorist who I'm forgetting the name of but this concept of love as being devoted to Yours or another person's spiritual development, right?
Taune: Yeah And also so necessary to speak to Now, because I feel like a lot of those writers, like Bell Hooks or Rian Isler or John Wellwood, they were writing about this in the 60s and 70s. Well, now it's 2024,
Nicole: right? Exactly. Yep. Well, I'm happy to be a part of the movement of picking up the conversation, right?
Yeah. And it's, it's funny that, um, it's not funny. I need to slow down. Um, when I was reading the book, I was reading the book, I ran through like chapters one, two, three, I'm like pulling out of it what I want, you know, and then my partner comes to me and it was like, Okay, I read it too. Like, let's have a book club.
Let's talk about it. What did you get out of it? And I was like, I don't know. I just picked it up and like read what I liked. I'm not even sure. Like, just even that act of slowing down to be like, what did I get out of three chapters? I don't know. You know, it's kind of like scrolling. We're just like scrolling for hours on Instagram.
What did you get out of that? A cat video? I don't know. I don't know, you know, like, yes, this moment of slowing down. Yes. It is very deep and romantic that he sat with me to have book club and it's very sweet. I have lovely people in my life. But like, I just realized, like, I've, I've literally like zipped through that book for three chapters and took away like nothing tangible.
Cause I hadn't slowed down to be like, Where's the sitting with me? I was just like reading it to read it. You know?
Taune: Yes. Yes. I that's like a coping mechanism of mine is absorbing as much information as possible. Um, but I also have a little bit of a pushback because I went on a date with somebody and we were talking about this and he reads more books than I do, which is Means nothing to you, but he reads a lot of books is my point.
And, um, he was saying that we were, I was like, you know, how do you integrate it is the question that I write. And I was like, I take notes sometimes, like I even have files or whatever. And he's like, well, also I think it just kind of, you absorb it and it becomes more of who you are. And I was like, drop, that's also true.
Like sometimes in the moment, there's not a way to be able to express what you learned when that happens. That's wonderful. And I feel like it. Deepens the lesson potentially in a deeper way. Who knows? But also, yeah, it just also becomes who we are, but I was just reading secure love. Have you read that?
It's new by Julie Monano, I think is her name. I follow her on Instagram. It's secure relationships or something, but it's a really wonderful book on attachment theory. And I was reading it out loud to a partner of mine last week and he kept stopping me and he was like, wait, so. Let me try to reiterate what I just heard.
Cause he's not a therapist or anything. I was like, this is so nice. Like this feels like so much attunement somehow so good. So anyway, it's good for your partnerships too. Yeah.
Nicole: Just to slow down. I mean, we had started this podcast, just checking in with one another, right. And you had talked about the, uh, concepts of monogamy.
How clear is that? Right. Are we actually attuned? Are we actually on the same page with what monogamy means? Right.
Taune: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Like, there's just this idea of what it means. But like, okay, is flirting with somebody else monogamy? How am I in my relationships with the type of gender genders that I generally have sex with that are just my friends that I'm not having sex with now?
What are they like, you know, texting how much sex you have? What even is sex? What even is flirting? Right? That's what about emotional connection. Yeah. All of these things. If I'm in a relationship, even that's monogamous and somebody says they're monogamous too, that doesn't actually mean anything. Sure.
Find out that they're flirting with somebody that's going to feel weird.
Nicole: Right.
Taune: Like, and I've experienced that in partnerships too. Like, of course, there needs to be a level of trust, hopefully, but just being able to talk about it. If you've had a history of betrayal, not trying to control, but just being honest can be so expansive.
I've found that people who want to talk about conscious relationships, whether they're polyamorous, monogamous, or non monogamous, versus more of the reactionary polyamorous, they want to know more about what's happening. Yeah, they want more clarity, they want more communication around it, and less assumptions.
Nicole: Totally, yeah.
Taune: It's more of like, I think some of the assumptions generally around monogamy that I've heard are like, well, this person doesn't really care about you if you're not monogamous, or this person isn't really committed to you if you're not monogamous. That's been a lot of pushback throughout my explorations.
But I think what they're really saying is that there's these external representations of clarity of commitment that are assumed with that are not assumed when you have a conscious relationship. And I think
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. And what I see most of that being is classical conditioning, right? Because I guess I was there, right?
That's where I first started. My journey is when I, yeah, that first like polyamorous person I met, I, he was like, yeah, I do polyamory and granted our first polyamorous partners, you know, like at least for mine, mine was not good. He did not tell his other partners about me. He didn't tell me about his other partners.
So he did a poor job at it. Um, But the first time that he came to me, I was like, I practiced this. I snapped at him and I was like, if you really loved me, I would be your only person. Right. And so like now being where I'm at as a relationship anarchist, I'm feeling like the capacity to love multiple different people all in their own individual capacities.
Right. Like previous me was right there. And now we can ask deeper questions about free will, which is where I sit at, where I'm like, ooh. I am the happiest I've ever been in my entire life. Whoa. So if I look back to that previous part of me that was yelling at him, not yelling, that was, you know, getting angry at him saying, no, if you loved me, right.
Given that I'm so happy now, happier than I was there. Now I ask questions about free will because when I was there, I was under a paradigm of societal thinking that wasn't really my own choosing if we consider my authenticity right here, you know? So then it's like when people are saying that like these like wanting security and relationships, like.
Pardon me, wonders how much of that is a free will choice versus the classical conditioning. I want security too. And also there's nothing wrong with choosing sexual fidelity, right? And the security that comes with that, because the reality is of these moving parts is it can be a lot of moving parts. And so finding that is really tricky too.
And so there's nothing wrong with wanting to be the only one person that, you know, you sleep with, but this question of, That being the only way to find security is really, really an interesting one.
Taune: It is a really, really interesting question. Yeah. And it's also, if we were to pan out, sometimes the folks who say that and believe it, and like, I've been steeped in it too, it's like, well, okay, what about when you break up?
Then does that mean that you never really loved that person? Or if you divorce because you and then you sleep with somebody else, like, does that mean that that person really didn't matter to you and some people will say that, you know, and it's just, I think different strokes for different folks, but I do think I want, I think it can be really helpful to look at things a little bit deeper, maybe with a little bit more compassion.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, until we have models of the alternative, it's not going to happen, right? Yeah.
Taune: Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, some of the models for the alternative are not great. I mean, I yeah, yeah, my hope is that for myself and anybody who chooses to that the container can shift and change and ebb and flow, right?
I'm not defined by an identity because that in itself is rigidity to me and and limiting. Yeah, but I too want security, love security.
Nicole: Don't we all, right? Of course, right? And I think sometimes for me, that's where I think about it as a metaphor of living at the beach, right? Like, I want to be able to walk out to the beach if I want to.
And some days I don't want to touch the sand. I just want to stay inside. You know, I do not actually live on the beach, dear listener, yet. Maybe, you know, one day. But like right now I do not, right? But in the Theoretical metaphor, like the ability to have the freedom to change how I'm relating over time feels so good to know that I am at the beach and if I want to get in the water I can.
And if I don't, I can sit at my home, right? I have that ability to change and ebb and flow in my relationships to, to find my pleasure and to find my own security rather than being in this box of I am this or I am that, which is also really why I like. The framework of relationship anarchy is as a type of relating a philosophy.
That's kind of outside of this binary view of non monogamy and monogamy to like. Oh, what are all the relationships around me, right? And in that paradigm, I can kind of ebb and flow through periods of different sexual practices and attachment in that way.
Taune: Yes. Yeah. And that just, it feels so honest to me, which feels relieving to every cell in my body.
You know, like the ability to be able to really have. For myself to know what the relationships around me mean and also to tell people around me, you know, I think a lot of the times people don't share like, oh, yeah, there's this person in my life who I used to sleep with or that I don't sleep with, but I have a close connection with, and that is okay when it becomes honest and more legitimate of being a human of multiplicity.
Absolutely. Yeah. So freeing. Totally.
Nicole: And then for me, I find a lot of security, at least in my life, through, you know, the There's seven days out of the week. I have at least right now, like two people that I see on a regular basis. Like they have a date out of that seven. They have another day out of that seven.
There's a community day where we all climb together, which is really cute. And I love my kitchen table dreams. It's so great. Um, but like I have security in my calendar, even just of these Two days a week, right? And like the, the grounding of that. And of course the, I've joked about the Saturday, Sunday being the most expensive space on the Monopoly board under capitalism, right?
Those are the days everyone has off. Right. And so just even thinking about pieces like that, but I found so much security and building like patterns and routines with these people. Um, that God dammit, I wish I had a book that talked about that, right? Like, build out your calendar. What are you doing to find the security of, of commitment of like a day of the week of knowing like, hey, every Tuesday I see this lover and it feels good, right?
Taune: Yes. And you look so happy saying that. Cause I am. Yeah. And that's more of like an internal, emotional, connecting, um, yeah. Representation of commitment or whatever you may call it versus the external that everybody else assumes that they understand.
Nicole: Totally.
Taune: Right. Right.
Nicole: Hey, a full day out of the week is significant.
That's a real commitment.
Taune: I mean, I'm like, how do you do it? That's what happened in my head.
Nicole: It's just like two different date nights a week, right? Like it's amazing.
Taune: Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. It's great. Yeah, but you hit that limit real fast, too, if you have so many. Like, uh, Valentine's Day had just passed, right, and I know it's a hallmark holiday, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, blah, blah, blah, but also, like, let's celebrate every day that we can, yay!
Yay! So, it's like, at some point, like, when you have all of these lovers in your community, where do you draw the line of, like, damn, I can't, like, Get everybody flowers. Like at some point I got a cap that all, you know, like, you know, it's like, it's, this is not an infinite abundance of love here under capitalism.
You know what I mean? No, there might be an infinite abundance of love, but not totally exactly. So like at some point, you know, I've got two, two secure people in this weekly seven day a week structure, some comments that orbit at different rates. Right. But you got, you got to find some grounding somewhere in that schedule, you know?
Taune: Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.
Taune: I mean, that sounds healing when you said that too, just more connection, you know?
Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. What have your relationships look like? How have you found security as you're kind of like moving through your liberation?
Taune: I feel like the past few years have been more about friendship.
Nicole: I love that.
Taune: Friendship, nature, animals, spirituality for me, my own personal development. But I have had. a partner that has been in my life for eight years. It's about,
Nicole: wow.
Taune: But it's like been different. It's been in different iterations. And, but I think that that's also a really beautiful thing when there's a strong enough connection and communication for it to change.
And to be truthful, it hasn't been honest. Honestly, healthy all of the years, just like you were speaking to being younger, you know, when I came out of a 10 year monogamous relationship wanting to be open, there were ways, you know, and I think it ebbs and flows, but it's the healthiest, one of the healthiest connections that I have in this moment.
And that feels really lovely. And just the security that I'm feeling within myself is very high right now. Yeah. And I think, yeah, just nature is really helped with that. My writing practices and art and really deep friendships and just the, but there is something for me about. Intimate sexual relationships that really reflect back the deepest triggers and the deepest work.
Not to say that friendships don't because they do, but there's something like, I just feel like it's much easier to be a monk, I imagine, then, you know, yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Cause I put up the crazy, like radical value system of trying to be able, not all, not all of them. Right. Like this, I want to say that first, cause I have a really expensive community, but trying to have sex with my friends, like, and what does it mean to have that sort of space?
And you're right. It brings up so much, so much. Yeah.
Taune: Yeah. Yeah. And some people like just decide, like, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Some people decide that they don't want that. Like, okay, no friends, no friends and sex, but then that makes things. Yeah. Anyway,
Nicole: there's lots of ways to do it. Totally. Right. And I think again, if we, I mean, I, I think about dismantling rape culture, right.
At the end of the day. And I think part of it is the, the reality that so much of sex is so shame private by association. We have no language. Most of us don't have language to describe what we want sexually, which means we also don't have the language to ask for stops, you know, a no. I released an episode with Betty Martin about the Wheel of Consent, right, and just thinking about all the different ways that we just quite literally don't have the language, let alone the somatic experience to ask for this or that in sexual experiences.
So yeah, if I start to have sex with a friend, does this friend then think that we're about to ride the relationship escalator about to take off and go in this way because we've had sex? Does that mean I need to now text them every day, every other day, right? Like there's just so much complexity here.
And again, on state stated pieces that I've had to be so careful of who I have sex with, right? Because if they're coming from a different paradigm, it could mean so much. Um, and so I, I do think that in the end of like, Dismantling rape culture. It is having more open conversations, getting more clarity around it so that sex doesn't have so much of this like unprocessed, deep things going on for us because, um, I think that's part of the problem.
Taune: Okay. So you feel like part of the problem is having like the unpro the, what is it exactly?
Nicole: Just the, the ways that they're so kind of like we were, again, the answer is not for everybody to fuck everybody. Like, that's not what I'm saying. The answer is that like, in the same way, when we say, Oh, I do monogamy.
Oh, you do monogamy. Great. We're on the same page. Like so many of us just don't have the insight into intimacy and sex and relating because of shame, because of purity culture, because of these other things that it makes all this. So fucking complicated and it doesn't have to be and when we get to a space where we could actually be like, no, I want this, but not that.
And I, I do see a lot of that in the kink community, right? Like, Hey, I'm cool with this. You can do that. We're friends. Goodbye. I'll see you next day. Like we're not kissing, but you can flog me, right? Like, Yeah. This ability to have the bodily autonomy and communication in that way, um, and how that ultimately would create more spaces where like consent would be more listened to and advocated for and respected.
I do kind of see that vision kind of like vibrating in my body. Mm hmm.
Taune: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which I feel like a huge part of that is more self awareness.
Nicole: Totally.
Taune: Yeah. Yeah. And also just that, again, like ebbs and flows, at least in my experience too, you know, and being able to ride that wave. I think that can be challenging, especially when it comes to cadence of sex.
I've noticed like, and like, if you don't have a certain amount of sex, it means this thing or that thing. And then like libido differences. And then what does it mean if you're a man and you don't, and you don't want to have sex? Or what does it mean if your man partner doesn't want you as a woman? And like, Or doesn't want to have sex with you rather like that means that it's just there's a lot there.
Nicole: It's huge. It's huge.
Taune: It's really huge. And it's so easy to fall into that paradigm. Yeah. But knowing what sex means to a person at a certain time, I think is really empowering, right? Like there's nothing wrong with what were you going to say? Sorry.
Nicole: I was just going to say like back in the day for me, when you had sex with me at the beginning, right?
It was it meant that we were going to be married like for the rest of my life. I only have sex with you for the rest of my life, right? Yeah. Compared to where I'd be at now. Oh, we have sex? Cool. I'll see you in like two weeks. Maybe never again. I don't know. You know, we're just like radically different paradigms.
Yeah. So like you said, being able to check in with the meaning making of someone of like, what does this act mean to you? Can we get clear on what this means? Yeah.
Taune: Yeah. And also that there's nothing wrong with either one. Like, I know people come from, you know, the direction of being super polyamorous and having sex with lots of people and then, then like, oh wait, I don't want to do that anymore.
Totally. You know, and I just think that's a really beautiful journey too.
Nicole: Mm hmm. I know many people have done that too. Absolutely. Yeah, right, which again brings me back to the metaphor of living at the beach, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, it's the freedom to choose that, right? And again, I think giving back into my past conditioning, I didn't even have that space of choice.
It was again, if you do this and that's how you love me, anything else is no versus Oh, I've explored this, you know, it's not for me, I think I want to stay here or I've explored this and this is great, right? It's just like so much of this, you know, conversation is just so deeply laden with societal expectations and judgment that really prevent all of us from even the space of deciding and going through that journey of, oh, I've done polyamory, actually, I really like sex with one person and building that and that feels really good.
Taune: Yeah.
Nicole: Crazy to me.
Taune: Yeah. It's a wonderful journey.
Nicole: Yeah. I know. I know. Sometimes I think about it like rock climbing too. Like there's a, do you rock climb or any of you? No. There's like different types of rock climbing. Like there's a pretty, I would call it the most intense like of lead climbing where you're doing this like more risky ish sort of type of climbing versus maybe like a top rope or top rope.
Never climbing at all. Like I always, Jessica Fern talks about, um, polyamory and non monogamy as rock climbing too. And like, talked about that. And I, and I do feel that way of like, you can live a beautiful life, never getting on a mountain. Let's be very clear. And then if you do want to get on the mountain, there are different levels to it.
Maybe like, Swinging, right? Compared to like relationship anarchy, right? And just like all these different ways. And I just, my biggest hope in this podcast space is that people find a resource where they can feel the ability to follow the pleasure that's speaking to them, right? The pleasure that speaks to them and their body and their relationships.
Um, and part of that means having conversations that talk about all the different options.
Taune: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And talk about attunement, right? Like being able to be seen maybe by a guest and, or by you, a listener. And then, I mean, that feels very attachment oriented to me and feeling like they're accepted and invited into deeper exploration of themselves.
Nicole: Yeah. And I really appreciate what you had said just about the, the evolution of it all.
Taune: Yeah.
Nicole: Change, right? The change that what we think we know today and what makes us happy and secure today will change.
Taune: Yeah. May that be a relief of some kind instead of like a fear or a threat.
Nicole: Totally. Totally. Because we hope we're getting stronger every day, right?
Taune: Yeah. Definitely. Yes. Resilient 100%.
Nicole: Yeah. Totally. Totally. Well, I know we've talked about a lot of beautiful things today, and I want to check in with you like I do with every guest, just to take a collective deep breath and just see if there's anything else left on your heart that you wanted to share with the listeners.
Otherwise, I have a closing question that I can ask you.
Taune: Okay, I do have something I want to share that's coming up for me. In related to attachment that I feel like not a lot of people are aware of is that avoidance, whether in monogamy or non monogamy, I feel like get a pretty bad reputation. People have more avoidant strategies and something that's really helped on the compassion journey of awareness is when they've done research on the avoidant nervous system versus the anxious.
There's actually more, um, happening stress cortisol level wise underneath and how it presents on the outside, actually more so than the anxious person. So I think, like, I don't know if it's your experience, but in my experience, um, a lot of the times anxious kind of gets this idea where we're the love seekers and where the lovers.
But also no matter what an attachment strategy is, I think we're all really, really, really yearning for love and are suffering when, even when, and if our strategies are dismissiveness. So just have more compassion when we can for ourselves, especially, but also others around us and then boundaries when it doesn't work.
Nicole: Totally. Totally. Taking a moment, maybe to see that like inner child of the person before you, right? When they were a little child and said, no mom, I don't need you. I don't need you, right? Like, I think it's right. It's much easier to look at them and be like, Oh, like they're, they're hurting to say that.
Yeah.
Taune: Sad. Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. So taking a moment to like, see that and the people that are sitting across from us in those moments, I think will hopefully call us all into deeper compassion and love.
Taune: And ourselves.
Nicole: Totally.
Taune: Yeah.
Nicole: Well, if it feels good to you, I'll ask my closing question.
Taune: Okay. Yeah. I'd love to.
Alright. Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. So the one question that I ask everyone on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Taune: Hmm. More normal. Well, I'm going to answer this in a very annoying way. Are you ready? Sure. I'm ready. Okay. So one of my favorite quotes that I really wish I knew who said it, but I can't seem to find the original person is that normal is a setting on a dryer
and that's helpful for me.
Yeah. Because I feel like just the comparison sometimes can be challenging. And so just whatever is happening is okay, is, and there's nothing bad or wrong or shameful in you or me or anyone.
Totally. Normal is a statistic, right? Normal is a statistic. And I'm definitely not normal as a radical queer pioneer, right?
Like, that is not normal at all. That's right. Yeah. And I'm very proud of that.
Nicole: And anytime that someone, uh, deconstructs the question to say nothing's normal, sign of a good anarchist. So you pass the test, the secret test.
Taune: No shade to your question, by the way. Oh, it's a great question.
Nicole: Yeah, totally. I appreciate it.
It's always fun to see where people take it. Cause it's either like the deconstruct the norm or the normalization of like a human, um, experience and yeah. So it's really fun to see where each guest kind of takes it. Every time.
Taune: Yeah. Both necessary.
Nicole: Yeah. Totally. Well, it was such a pleasure to, yeah, have you today.
Where do you want to plug for all the listeners that have connected with you and want to learn more about your work?
Taune: Yeah. So mainly, or the only social media that I have is Instagram and it's just my first and last name. It's Taune Lyons, or they can reach out to my website. Sometimes there's stuff there.
Well, thank you so much. for joining
Nicole: us. If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast. And head on over to modernanarchypodcast. com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
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