Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole.
On today's episode, we have Aspen. Join us for another relationship anarchy research conversation. Together, we talk about deconstructing the narrative of single, bringing the romantic into the platonic and how great freedom comes with great responsibility. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.
I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice. Supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.
Dear listener, ah, I have such exciting news to share with you. I passed my dissertation on relationship anarchy, y'all. That was the last piece of the academic component of my doctorate and now I just have my clinicals and I will be out. out by the summertime, which is so, so exciting. And it has been such a joy to have these conversations on the podcast that started with my dissertation research.
And every time I have one of these conversations, I learn from each one of you. Relationship anarchy is a movement, right? And so your voice matters. Dear listener, if you are a relationship anarchist, I want to talk to you, I want to learn from you, I want to share your wisdom with our community. And so, there is a link in the show notes below for you to answer the relationship anarchy research questions, for you to join me on the show, and I'd be honored to have you.
and Gosh, dear listener, there are so many ways that the patriarchy is taking power. So many different ways. And one of the ways that I think about relationship anarchy is certainly about sex. Right? All the different power structures that are there. All the different power structures of patriarchy that are there.
And, wow, the other day, you know, I have to share with you, I came home to my apartment, and in my apartment, I had two men. That I love. Two men that were cooking me dinner. Talk about rewriting gender stereotypes and norms. Two men cooking me dinner. And together, we co created the highest forms of pleasure.
In our bodies, in our hearts, and with our breath. And I just know that my feminist ancestors would be so, so proud of me. To be rewriting the narratives. And although the patriarchy is taking power in many ways, the patriarchy will certainly not take power within my bedroom.
Dear listener, we are going to keep having pleasure conversations in this space. I promise that my voice will continue to stay loud, authentic, and free to speak to these things, despite what may come for the future. Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can head on over to modernanarchypodcast. com, linked in the show notes below. And I want to say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people. So thank you. If you want to join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, then you can head on over to patreon.
com slash modern anarchy podcasts. And with that, dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode. The first question I like to ask each guest is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Aspen: Yeah. Hi, that's a good question. I have been listening to the podcast for a while now, so I should be prepared.
Yeah, you can call me Aspen19. I'm still hanging on to that, like, young person perspective for a while now. Sure. And that's kind of what got me interested in giving the feedback and talking about it. I am queer. And kinky, and I'm an anarchist in the old fashioned sense of the word and in the relationship y sense of the word.
So, yeah. Live in the Pacific Northwest and currently trying to find cool things to do in life, whether they be for money or not.
Nicole: Yeah, sure, sure, sure. I'm excited to have you on the podcast today and get to talk to you about one of my favorite topics, relationship anarchy. So thank you for trusting me and joining me and all the listeners today.
Aspen: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Appreciate it. Of course.
Nicole: Well, the first big question, what is relationship anarchy?
Aspen: Yeah, I mean, the way I conceptualize it, and I know a lot of people have a lot of different interpretations and definitions and it probably carries a lot of common themes across, but I conceptualize it as applying anarchist principles to the interpersonal dynamic.
So that's principles like disassembling power structures. It's not having any institutionalized hierarchy, uh, free association as well is one. With that one, I feel like there's some people who are in more monogamish. Situations who are relationship anarchists and I respect that and I'm not, I'm not trying to like, say that you should be polyamorous or so, but just the way I was introduced to it was with free association, which is a lot more in that kind of polyamorous sphere.
So be interested in learning more. I didn't, it wasn't until listening to your podcast that I realized that people were monogamous. And relationship anarchists, so yeah, it's a, it's a very abstract the way that I just described it, but maybe grounding it a bit more is like not taking any, uh, structure to be a given when forming a relationship and instead just co creating the relationship that you want.
with the people that you meet. Is that, that's the way that I try and explain it to people who maybe don't have, maybe aren't anarchists or, um, aren't super familiar with it.
Nicole: For sure. For sure. Yeah. Getting out of the prescriptive ways of being into the creativity of writing your own narrative, your own story, your own relationship.
Yeah. Exactly. You had mentioned the ways that, uh, you're dismantling power structures. I'm already thinking of a million different power structures that we'd be dismantling. And I'm curious if any are coming to mind for you that you've experienced and navigated.
Aspen: Yeah, totally. Just in my own life. I am fairly new to relationship anarchy, like maybe like a year in or so.
And before that, I'm fairly new to relationships. I've just had like one serious relationship in my life. Romantic. Sure. I have many, many other serious relationships.
Nicole: There's the anarchist, yeah.
Aspen: Yeah, but a lot of my experience has been informed by power structures, whether it be internalized queerphobia or internalized patriarchy, um, machismo as well, um, and the way it's come up of like a kind of a possessive or an ownership, it's very extremely hierarchical and extremely damaging.
So being able to step outside the paradigm of. I am yours, you are mine, um, has been a huge one for, uh, for intense relationships for me. Um, and like probably one of the healthiest steps that I've been able to take.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. To not, um, have to find security through ownership of someone, right? What a powerful mind shift and paradigm.
Aspen: Yeah, exactly. Unless it's like, In a consensual, kinky setting.
Nicole: Kinky, yeah, totally.
Aspen: And I, No, go ahead.
Nicole: I like to play with it too, where I'm like, Oh, this pussy's all yours. Even though I know it's absolutely not. You know what I mean? Like, there's no way where this person has any control over me, but I'll say that because it's fun to play with.
Other relationships where you're like, Oh, this is like, we use that sort of term of possessiveness. Yes. Um, in other ways that are not restrictive, I think you'd say, Oh, this is my friend. This is my best friend. Like that is my, but it's not in a possessive of controlling their actions way. So I might say this is my person, right?
But not on a possessive controlling their actions sort of way.
Aspen: The limitations of the English language, but it so when you use words like that, you could be meaning like radically different things. You could be meaning ownership or you could be meaning in reference to self. Right? Right. So, like, this is the relationship that this person holds in reference to myself.
Right? This is my friend with my partner versus this is. My friend, like, person who is a friend is my, you know, property, um, I see people, like, with the limitations of language, even, like, a lot of people aren't sure what they mean when they do say those words.
So, yeah. Not taking anything for granted.
Nicole: For sure, for sure.
Yeah, it's deconstructing the meaning of those. When you say that word, what does that mean to you? This is what it means to me. And can we at least get close to a similar page of what our intentions are with that word, right? Obviously we'll never be on the same exact page because we're locked in our own heads up here.
But, uh, getting closer than at least unexamining many of these words and examining many of these practices that we have. So actually getting deep into what that means for each individual person.
Aspen: Completely. One thousand percent. That's what is relationship anarchy for me. It's basically just been doing that a whole bunch of questioning, getting really meta and annoying about it.
Nicole: I know, right?
Aspen: Over and over.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that hopefully I'll still get to the end of my life if I'm lucky to live many years and still be deconstructing what it means to examine power structures, right? Yeah.
Aspen: Absolutely. In so many areas. I find it wild where some people, their politics can be like, so radically anti authoritarian, but their interpersonal is like, they just like, take all these things for granted and just reinforce all these power structures.
Or, on the flip side, someone who's like, really into like, Poly stuff, or relationship, calls himself a relationship anarchist, but then in the more political life lens, we'll just accept and take all these power structures for granted. It's like on all, all spaces we need to be thinking critically about like, what is this dynamic and why does this hierarchy exist?
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Cause a big piece of relationship anarchy from my understanding is letting go of the hierarchy that places sexual and romantic dynamics over platonic connections. Right. And so when you start to get into that space of really being intentional about all of your relationships, right. Yeah.
What does it mean to be intentional about my community of people that I see? Thanks You know, on a weekly, monthly, yearly basis, as well as my larger, broader community that I live in my country, the world, the planet that I live, right? Like, so then you start to see the political nature of how it's not just about your close inner circle of the romantic or sexual.
It is a much broader examination of our relationships to all people. Some people even include beans, right? Animals, the ecology, the climate, right? Like you start to get really met on what relationship means. I mean, even studying psychedelics and drugs, we always talk about your relationship to drugs and everything I've learned about chaotic uses that it always comes back to your, your relationships.
Right. And so for me, that word relationship ends up getting, um, very used, I think appropriately across many different formations, not just people. What's your relationship to this. Substance to this blank, right? Like these are different relationships that we have.
Aspen: Completely. I was talking with that with a friend a little while ago about like how applying relationship anarchy to substances is like the same way that it can help counter toxic monogamy in the interpersonal can help counter like toxic relationships with substances as well.
Because as soon as there's some sort of power differential. You know, something's not okay. Or as soon as you're spending all your time with one, you know, it's not okay. So like I was smoking cigarettes and weed every day for the past year and a bit until new year's and. I started realizing like, oh, I'm, I'm like dependent.
Like, I need this. Like, this substance is telling me that I need to come to it. And I'm like, I don't, that doesn't feel right to me. So my kind of like little anti authoritarian brain kicks in and I'm like, well, fuck you then. And like, I quit. It was easier for me, uh, it was pretty, it was easier for me to quit because I was like, I don't want this entity to have control over me.
Nicole: I don't know
Aspen: if, yeah, that relates and makes sense, but.
Nicole: Sure, yeah, to examine just power structures in general, right? And so for that to be the important narrative for you in terms of rewriting a new relationship to the substance where there's, there's more agency on your part, more autonomy, right? To be able to have a different relationship with it.
I definitely think about when, if I'm thinking about like drug use and relationship anarchy, I'm certainly thinking about, you know, like the war on drugs, the messages, the racialization of those attacks, right? I'm thinking about the narratives. Of, yeah, what we've been sold about drugs and how that impacts our relationship to them, right?
Oof, big, little, let alone all the research on Rat Park, which I always talk about in the podcast of, um, The ways that drug use, they had done the study with rats, but drug use, they had had cocaine and heroin water and drank it to excess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, cool, yeah. Cool. I love that. Great. Yeah. It was a pretty radical thing for me to learn about too.
Um, but yeah, when they drink it's excess in the cage compared to opening up the cage to a whole rat park where you could play and have different rats and in that cage, they barely touch the heroin or cocaine water. So I think that even in our relationship to substances, if we're thinking about anarchy and power structures, we have to ask that bigger question of what is the cage?
The systems that we're all in that are contributing to these chaotic use of substance to ameliorate some of the pain that we're in as a society. Like, that makes sense. Right? So I could go down the rabbit hole.
Aspen: No, I, yeah, I agree with that 1000%. And what I was saying earlier wasn't to. Yeah, say that substance use is wrong, necessarily.
Yeah, even if people do have, like, dependencies, like, that's not wrong, it's, it's the context that you exist within, right? Yeah, the racialization and the war on drugs and that stigma that's been so interwoven into altering your mind or altering your reality, it's, Brutal. It's almost like this system creates a condition that is unlivable for so many people, and then shames anyone who tries to alter their perception of that or put some sort of barrier in their mind in between that and themselves.
The system is then shaming and criminalizing and attacking those people because they want them to experience it fully, raw. And unfettered, which is scary to me, right?
Nicole: Right. Right. And then like legalizing some of it, right? Because then you think about like all the stuff with oxy and all the wild, wild, wild documentaries.
You can watch on that where that was a legal painkiller, right? Not addictive. That's in big air quotes. That's the whole problem here. Um, or even for myself, like I was when I was, you know, Diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder in the past, which I'm, I'm very anti idea some these days, but in the past, that's what I was given.
And, um, I was put on an SSRI. So then I, for a couple of years, every single day, I took a drug to alter my reality, but that drug's okay. Right under our sad capitalistic world, that drug you can definitely take all day. Let alone the fact that they gave me a, uh, as needed PRN Klonopin. Right? A benzo. Like, you can take this whenever you're stressed out.
Here you go! Right, like, talk about which drugs are okay, which drugs are not. Whoa, okay.
Aspen: Yeah, totally. Once you start seeing, like, how arbitrary it all is, once you see, like, old medicine bottles that have, like, this is a mix of heroin, cocaine. Cannabis, like, yeah, you start questioning power structures, like, why, who, who is it that gets to deem X okay, or X not okay, you know, um, and why do they have that authority, and why do they have that control, and what are the impacts of that on And, Our society and our populations, and yeah, why are things legalized when it's usually for profit like usually profit dictates it if you trace it well enough, and it's almost like scary, I find a lot of times to.
Start questioning these things or have these thoughts or have a distrust because it's really easy to think like, oh, the medical system or the economic system or the political system or the system I use in my interpersonal relationships. I can trust that I can take that for granted. That isn't inherently harmful.
Um, and maybe it isn't harmful for you or your context. But once you realize that. The people running that are just humans, same as you, flawed, same as you, and that there isn't anything inherently sacred about it and that it maybe is harmful for a lot of people, then you almost have a responsibility to start taking that into your own sphere and taking agency over your own life and where you could have ascribed it to like something else in the past.
Nicole: Yeah, once the matrix starts to, to break down, you know, it's a little bit of a darker road. You're like, Oh no, I can't just believe that it's all good and wholesome out there. Right. And I think the more privileges that we have, the further you can be from that reality, of course, right. When you less privilege, you're confronting that reality every single day that this system does not show up for you.
You can't get access to healthcare, stable housing, all that. So it's. Very there. And then I think the people who have more and more privilege or further from that reality. But even then, I feel like this like hyper individualistic, very consumer based culture. I mean, we have some of the highest rates of depression and suicide.
I don't know how Happy. We really are at the top either. So I think that we're all suffering in very different ways to be clear, different ways, depending on how much privilege you have. But absolutely, I don't think that this system is working for many of us. And so then what does it mean to, to take that and then take action in our, in our communities, in, uh, our close interpersonal relationships, and then to really trust the ripples.
of that when we're showing up for the people around us and and being present, giving back, like trusting in the ripples of that to actually make long term change throughout future generations.
Aspen: Totally. Absolutely. I've definitely seen like people come into activist spaces like with more privilege and with more of a background of just like taking all these structures for granted that they work and they're positive and Obviously, like, for someone who experiences marginalization, their life is a lot harder than it has been for these other people with more privilege and with more background.
And I don't, I'm not trying to diminish that in any way. But just what I've observed is like, psychologically, it's really hard if you take these things for granted, if you you. Take these things as inherent positives that these are problems if they haven't been, if these systems haven't been, uh, adversely impacting you your whole life.
Um, and you realize, and then you put yourself in a context where you suddenly realize the problems all at once. It can be very overwhelming and you're going to need like solid support systems as well for that. But I also like what you said about like, once you start thinking about those things, you have.
Agency and to be able to enact in your life and start build the structures and trust the ripples and go forward. It's I really enjoy being able to go forward with a, an intentional or conscious way of like, yeah, like, how does this contribute positively, you know, how can we set up our own structures and our own systems, you know, that are able to flourish, you know, once we, you know, don't have this script that we're being fed, how can we, like, write it ourselves and co create it, you know?
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And I know you had talked a little bit about kink and queerness, and I think that that is As someone that dabbles in research and the sex and relationship space. Whoa, my goodness. The amount of power structures. I mean, so we're talking about drugs, right? Power and ownership over your body.
Okay. You know, so, and also power and ownership over pleasure starts to get really close to the sex space. Right. And like all the different narratives. that are implicit in our culture around this. Oh my God. I, I can easily see the rest of my life still just scratching the surface of how deep this goes into our subconscious and psyches.
Um, but I'm curious to hear your take on power structures around sexuality and, and pleasure.
Aspen: Yeah, absolutely. The way I view it around sexuality is you have. Like, almost like a class structure, but it's older than any economic or political structure that we have, but cisheteropatriarchy, the way that it reduces people's identities and fluidity into very rigid boxes, you know, you're male or you're female.
Male is on top, female is sub, is serving the needs of male, you're, you know, heterosexually paired off in that way, and if you exist outside of that paradigm, then usually sexual violence is subordinated. Enacted to try and force you back into that paradigm. It's something that's followed like Western civilization.
It's quite brutal, but it's also so deeply internalized. Like I know I have a lot of, a lot of. Queer phobia that I've deeply internalized myself that I'm working through with therapy every week. Um, stigma around sexual pleasure or substances, it's definitely present in my life. It's been because of my upbringing, like, my parents were hippies.
I grew up on the side of the mountain. Everyone and everyone. Like, was smoking and selling weed, um, and pretty sex positive. And that's also, like, some of the reason I wanted to come on and talk was because coming at this from a young person, I maybe don't have all the experiences that some of your guests have or that you've had of experiencing this, like, hype religious Christian, you know, I was raised atheist, I was raised hippie, I was raised progressive, like, There's less, there's less of that stigma baked in, and it's, um, and especially coming at it at a younger age, it's, I don't know, less life experience, more neuroplasticity, there's an, there's an ability to just accept things a little bit more.
That stigma is rooted within our culture and interwoven. And when it comes to like the queer phobia, I think that's a lot more deeply internalized in me. But when it. it comes to like sexual pleasure and drug use. Those are things that aren't as tough to reckon with or grapple with just because of the context that I was brought up in.
Nicole: Great. Right. Like, that's what we hope for. We hope for future generations that they never have to go through the same experience, that it's at least easier. Cause yeah, at 19, I was going to church every Sunday, praying to God and condemning the. The queers and anyone who was sex positive, right? So, wow, I'm so happy that you are not in that space and that you are thriving outside of that.
Right. And so I continue to hope in that joy for future generations. And I'm conscious too, of just the questions here. And so I want to make sure I keep, I have a, I have a hard time with these. Cause then I'm like, oh, we could just talk. And I'm like, ah, there's questions I need to get us started. Um, and so.
I'm curious in talking about this and the ways that you have, you know, that beginner's mindset as you're coming to this, how would you describe your practice of relationship anarchy?
Aspen: Yeah, for me, it is, uh, it's a polyamorous experience, so I very much have reassociation in the ways that I. I don't restrict the people who I'm with, who they can be with, in any romantic or sexual sense, and I don't necessarily want that restriction on me.
I also have started to learn about the different types of attraction that are out there. Romantic, sexual, sensual, aesthetic, platonic, and Start picking these apart and unbundling them from the little packages that we've been given and then kind of building relationships that can incorporate any myriad of those.
So right now, my relationships look like I'm in a A queer platonic relationship with two besties and so the three of us, like we each individually have our own relationships and then like the three of us together is like it's relationship as a whole. And that's been going on since about a year. So we kind of like came and found this together.
It's funny. We were actually. The three of us were like spending a lot of time together and we were joking, we're like, we're not friends, we're not lovers, we're a secret third thing. Um, and that was like the joke for a while.
And then I'd mentioned something about how I'd heard about relationship anarchy and one of my other friends she eventually like came up and she's like you guys I think I found what the secret third thing is and like talked all about queer relationships and stuff so yeah and then outside of that I've been going on dates and experimenting with romance as well but I've also been pretty romance adverse for the past two years because of my prior relationship and some of the trauma that came with that.
So it's mainly been non romantic for me, but now I'm starting to explore and experiment with romance as well, um, with different people and also recognize the romance that existed in friendships that I just completely ignored because my brain categorized that as friends. Okay, that's that's my that's your answer.
Nicole: Great. Yeah. I mean, I think there's so much to say about that the romance of friendships and platonic connections and just getting, you know, we had started the conversation talking about getting curious. About the language we use and what it means, right? And so the word romance, what does that even mean?
Right? Where does that narrative start in the 1800s, right? Um, and that, that lineage of that word and what does that mean? And so, yeah, to have that sort of curiosity and then to See romance in your platonic connections of giving them flowers, writing them sweet cards, calling them your beloved. For me, that level of reflection brings so much more vibrancy and hues, like these full, bright colors to my life, rather than Looking at this one person or even in a polydynamic two, three, wherever you draw your capacities of time and energy as, wow, these are the people that I love, these are the people, these are the people versus, Whoa, I actually have a whole relationship with this.
Oh my God. Like it's like the psychedelic trip where all the colors are really heightened. Right. And you're like, damn, everything's. So beautiful, right? So that level of intentionality, I think, is a really powerful transformation that would help so many people who are, I don't even use this word, um, single.
I'm single. Or are you single? You have no, no relationships at all in your entire life? You know, like, what a narrative to tell yourself. And if we know anything about psychology, it's like, we are the narratives we tell ourselves, right? And so, to say I'm completely alone, isolated, and single.
Aspen: Absolutely. To reduce yourself to a singularity. And define yourself based on a lack of this, like, other. Uh, this promised other that will supposedly fulfill. your needs and make you somehow whole. You take that perspective. I've been quote unquote single for like two and a half years. Um, it does not feel that way at all, like I have a lot of fulfilling relationships and a lot of people in the world today are very lonely and feel very isolated in our individualistic culture with a lack of community.
And it's like a psychedelic trip where suddenly all the colors are heightened and vibrant. And when you. Are able to like, yeah, bring romantic into the platonic and like recognize all this beauty and deep connection and maybe flirtatious fun feelings around a myriad of interactions. It's really nice. In my own experience, like I've had platonic connections and this is like before I discovered relationship anarchy and they were definitely like just inherently and naturally romantic even with a friends who are a monogamous couple I'd spend time with them and the vibes were there I don't know how to describe it any other way.
Like, not like sexual at all, but just like romantic vibes were there, and I was just unable to conceptualize that until I was more exploring and questioning and not taking things for granted, so to speak, and being able to like, come back and recognize that it's almost like sweet in a little bit, you know?
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. A level of presence intentionality that can be really transformational. And I know you had mentioned free association. I have been using the word sexual self governance, right? To honor the, the, Interconnectedness of that self governance is like an anarchist term. Of course, like we always know the self is in relation.
So in my sexual self governance, of course, like STD tests, fluid bonding, like all of that sort of stuff is obviously in there. I don't just move as this free entity that would be libertarianism. Right. But apart from that, um, I think it's really beautiful to think about the abundance. That you can flow into with that in terms of expressing yourself.
Talk about power structures. Wow. As someone who's been conditioned as a woman, the Madonna and the whore complex is deep within me. And so the idea of having multiple people that I'm having sex with, wow, what a journey to unpack that one, many tears, many confused, confused experiences. But, um, I love this, this space of abundance and freedom and all that.
And I think there, there is. At least in my world, some restrictions with that. I think it's hard for me when people are like, there's no rules. I'm like, I think there actually are rules, maybe just not talked about. How would you feel if I had sex with your brother? I think you'd be upset, dear friend, right?
You know what I mean? Like, or your parents, or your blank, or your co workers, or this. And so for me, I always think like, there is some level of restriction. It's just always a question of like, are we consenting this together? Can we talk about that? Um, at least in my book, like, uh, you know, like I would feel very uncomfortable if one of my partners slept with my sister, like, that would feel very uncomfortable for me, but I think that's another space where often we don't even talk about it.
We're just like, oh, there's no rules. I'm like, I think there still are a little bit of rules here and that's okay. Like, I think having some level of boundaries of what feels comfortable is still important to talk about. Um, so. Yeah, and I just, I see that in the community sometimes.
Aspen: I really like that concept of like sexual self governance, because free association, I've been using that term because my anarchist brain just like, likes globbing on to, but I can see Totally how it could be applied in a very, and actually I have witnessed how it's applied in like a not so great way.
Um, definitely. Luckily, like not impacting me or any of my relationships, but just in communities, I've seen that. A lot of it does come down to having caring and having empathy and respect for those around you, you know, and caring enough to like, check in because what some people are uncomfortable with and are not okay with, other people are totally fine with and bringing that it's not like you can just go forward and do whatever.
I feel like this about anarchy too. It's not like there are no rules and you can just do whatever you want with no repercussions. It's like, no, now that you're not taking some script or some narrative or some power structure inherent, there's more obligation and more responsibility on you to be able to You know, take into consideration all the things that that power structure was taking into consideration, even if that power structure was doing it in a harmful way, it was still taking these things into consideration.
And now that's on you. So you have like a responsibility in that sense to be able to have the tough conversations, you know, and figure out and establish like, what is and isn't okay, because When it comes to romantic and sexual and strong platonic interactions, like, people's feelings can get hurt and people can get hurt.
The understanding, like, the cliche, the Spider Man, with great power comes great responsibility, you know? I'd say, like, with great freedom comes great responsibility. Do those around you?
Nicole: Yes, absolutely. Ideally, right? In the best case scenario. Yes. I think about sauna healing collective where I've been doing my psychedelic training, right?
As a non hierarchical space. What that means is there's no boss at the top that gets to say, this is what the collective is doing. Done, done, done. But what that means on the other side is that you have to get the whole collective together to make a choice, right? Which is more responsibility now because Who's got free time?
What times are you, you're right. It is more work inherently to coordinate the whole group together so that you make a non hierarchical decision about where the collective is going. Um, and so it takes that intentional level of added work to it rather than someone at the top, it says, this is what we're doing.
Um, so I think that that's another piece of it too, where you have people just think, oh, I have all this freedom. I have all this power. power. But like you're saying, it actually means more responsibility to check in with your broader network of people that you're connected to and how you're impacting them.
And I think that's where I talked about this in my jealousy guide on my website in the book of, you know, the sexual self governance is in your interconnectedness. Cause I, I think that just like free association, someone could be like, well, I'm, I'm sexually self governing. Like, don't tell me what to do with my body.
It's like, yeah, you gotta tell me if you have unprotected sex, my friend, because that puts me at a risk, right? Like, it's not just like, fuck everybody. I'm a libertarian, you know? Like it's like, you have to talk. And so with that added freedom, with that added, um, ability, you're right. Spiderman. Sure. Added responsibility, added intentionality, right, to the people that are around you.
Aspen: Totally. Absolutely. It's interesting, the different labels and words and the meaning we ascribe to them.
Nicole: How deep do we want to go down that rabbit hole, right?
Aspen: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, my conception of the term libertarian has always been like a more positive one in the political sense, but I'm also not American, and y'all's libertarians are whack.
So it totally fits like that, you know, trying to access freedom, but in a way that can be very selfish and harmful and actually include power structures, perfectly worded. Yeah. And it's like, It can be a lot of work to try and, like, take on the feelings of everyone around you as well, and it can almost seem, like, really hard and difficult, and a lot of people in monogamous relationships, like, will fantasize or, like, Create some conception of like what it must be like to just like not have monogamy and being able to just go out there and sleep with whoever and experience deep romantic connection with whoever.
And like, just be on a whim and like, there are people who do that. Yeah, but a lot of times it comes around. So I honestly, with the amount of energy that I have myself and the amount of capacity I have myself, it's hard to just maintain like a few core. Um, and just put that time and energy to be able to do, like, it's better to do like a small amount right than it is to just go out there and do crazy amount, but be spreading harm along the way.
Nicole: Right, right, right, right. Quality over quantity. Absolutely.
Aspen: Yeah, yeah,
Nicole: I'm curious to like guiding us towards the next question, which I know we're hitting on it in so many different ways But why do you practice relationship anarchy? Why is this important to you?
Aspen: I have particular ways that I attract and that I feel safe in relationships and that I go forward and I'm really attracted to the idea of being able to explicitly design something that meets mine and meets other people's needs.
Yeah, I've had toxic monogamy in the past, and that's affected me deeply. And not to say, like, my relationship style now is a reaction to that or is defined because of that, but rather, I've come to an understanding or a lifestyle or way of being that is very healing and allows me to work with intentionally my different traumas or being able to like see like what does work what doesn't work and like almost intentionally plan and like bring a certain level of consciousness into it.
Um, so for me relationship anarchy like allows me. To design something that is effective, that is nourishing, that is fulfilling, but also, like, meets different adverse needs that maybe wouldn't be considered in, like, the traditional package of boyfriend, girlfriend, you know, or partner, romantic, sexual.
Platonic divide, like those packages that are given to you doesn't work very well for me. So yeah, I guess intentionality and being able to decide.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And I think a big thing that comes out of that, that I saw in my research work is. The embrace of change, right? This sort of intentional relationship creation, having conversations, and in that embracing the reality that relationships will change.
And ideally, we hope for the better. We grow more intimacy. We grow closer. We understand each other better. And also, desires can change. The structures that fit well for the both of you can change. And so I really appreciate this. This embrace of that reality and that continual check in rather than this is the relationship escalator we're going on.
This is the way it's more of that fluid, okay, where are we at right now? Where are we at right now? Again, right? And continually asking that question. Oh, I find that to be some of the most like authentic and dynamic, beautiful relationship structures when you're having that intentional reflection and dialogue and creation.
Aspen: Absolutely. Um, I remember, like, right when I got into it, like, me and all my friends were doing the smorgasbord over and over, and then, you know, that kind of excitement of that, discovering that died out a bit, and people got, fell into patterns, and then things happened, people moved, context changed. Uh, and then it's like, I think we ought to bring this out again, like, we need to recheck it, like, our relationship does not match what we said it would be because of natural processes, so we should go in and check in again on all these points and see where we are explicitly and what we want explicitly on all these points.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I feel like we're already hitting on the next question, which is how does relationship anarchy impact your practice of intimacy? I'm hearing the different ways that, yeah, it is this embrace of change and conversation and reflecting on different tools like the smorgasbord.
And I'm curious, are there any other ways that you see relationship anarchy impacting your practice of intimacy?
Aspen: Yeah, completely. Well, we talked earlier about like how it allows you to bring intimacy into relationships that would have been stripped of it traditionally, you know, so like different platonic relationships that are like, it's almost like you're not allowed to consider that a certain level of intimacy or you're not allowed to consider that intimacy as important or you feel as nourished from it.
So that was a huge one. brightening that landscape of relationships around me, um, and bringing intimacy into places where it maybe isn't traditionally allotted to. Yeah, and then also when things are overwhelming, my natural response is to just shut down, but that doesn't really fly, um, if you're trying to maintain complex relationship dynamics.
So it's forced me To learn how to communicate better and it's made me more intentional and conscious in my intimate relationships. I've learned to be a lot more explicit. I've learned to get in touch with specifically what my needs are, specifically what my boundaries are, and then be able to share those with people, relevant people in my life.
Yeah. My practice of intimacy has differed from that because, yeah, I've been able to diversify it, decentralize it, so to speak, and then I've also been able to add that intentional component and been able to grow in that space of becoming more intentional with it and more explicit with it.
Nicole: And if you're anything like me, often learning through mistakes, I'm going, Oh shit, I gotta be better here.
Here we go over here. Right. Oh, nothing.
Aspen: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Nicole: I'm curious in that line, that vein, um, what are some of the difficulties that you've experienced with relationship anarchy?
Aspen: Communication is a huge one. Like, yeah. Like I said, um, It's easy for me to withdraw when things are too overwhelming for me when I have a low capacity, I kind of just shut down and being in relationships with different people and like they need certain communication and we have to co create ways for me to be able to provide that.
And then other difficulties which are just more generic as well is, um, people not. being relationship anarchists or not having these conceptions. So tomorrow, I'm going to be meeting with someone who I've gone on a few dates with and really like them. But last time we talked, we said something that was very much along the lines of, uh, the more I, you know, I become girlfriend, boyfriend with someone, and then they don't want all the commitment that comes with that.
So. Then I have a problem with that and then they just want to be friends and like, going into this relationship, I'm like, okay, so you have an idea of what it means to be a partner, and it is not the idea that I have because We're two different people with two, like, radically different backgrounds. So, like, tomorrow I'm going to be like, hey, have you heard of the relationship escalator?
What does this look like for you? Like, so being able to have those conversations and reconciling what Your needs and your capacity are with what the needs and capacity of other people. It's difficult. It's tricky. It can be so much easier to just like, spend your time with this person having fun or doing what feels good.
Instead, you're like, okay, I'm going to take my limited time and energy and I'm going to bring up this topic that is hard to talk about. And we're going to like hash it out and communicate. Needs boundaries and capacity, which is what seems to come down to is needs, boundaries and capacity over and over again, right?
Nicole: Absolutely. It's a lot of conversation, especially up front. I feel like when you're starting to meet someone and get to know them, I think those are. Such important conversations to have to make sure that you're not, you know, it's almost like harm reduction philosophy and pleasure enhancement, which I think are connected.
But right, there's a level of harm reduction to have some sort of conversation about this rather than just going months of not talking about it. And then that person has projected a whole future. Where you're married to them in a monogamous, living together context with two kids. And you say, wow, I had not thought about any of that actually.
Hold on. Wait, what? And then they're crying. You're crying. Everyone's upset. Right. So, so being able to have those conversations upfront, which I find to be really fun. Fun. Like, it's like such a nice litmus test of like, cool. Like, yeah. What are, what are your capacities for connection? Obviously it changes.
Don't get me wrong, but like, what are your capacities right now? Like, what are you excited about? What sort of connections, what does the word boyfriend girlfriend mean to you? What does the word partner mean to you? Right. And you can learn so much about someone by how they respond to that and their ability to communicate that.
And, and I feel like one of the big things too, is like emotional, um. Support. That's how I like one that frequently in like communication styles that we just never spend the time talking about. But the more clarity that we do find the less harm and hurt we have down the line and the more pleasure because of course, these people in our lives are not mind readers.
So if we can get clear with them to say, Hey, this is the amount of contact. That feels really good to me. This is the amount of enmeshment that feels really good to me. Right. That's also how we get our desires met is actually having these conversations rather than like pouting in a corner being like, well, why didn't they do this?
But we never actually asked for it. But I'm still mad that they didn't read my mind. Right. Like
Aspen: exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Um, 1000%. Yeah, the mind reading one is like, yeah, I've,
Nicole: we've all been there.
Aspen: Yeah. In past relationships. I've been like, well, I can't read your mind. You know, I've said that like multiple times all like, you know, but, um, then being on the other side and being like, oh, they can't read my mind.
Like, I have to say something. Um, It's real. And even when you think, like, that your communication is good, even when you think that, like, you're on top of it all, there's going to be some things that you're taking for granted. Um, so being able to, like, have those check ins and feel, like, comfortable and confident enough to be able to communicate, you know, I find that's also, like, a barrier sometimes if you're not.
Super self confident, you can communicate as your boundaries or your needs super well. And if you don't feel super comfortable in a context, then you're gonna want to have walls and be defensive and that also limits your ability to communicate and you have to be able to come in with a certain capacity as well for communication and that can be a limitation sometimes.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And if I've learned anything about psychology, it's that we grow in relationships. So finding relationships where someone gently like opens you up to a new perspective or shows you a level of care and love and communication that is new, right? That's where we grow and we expand. And that's at least for me, one of the many joys of relationship anarchy is finding these really beautiful humans that have shown me a level of love, communication, empathy that has.
Radicalized my whole life. And so I'm curious for you. What are some of the joys of relationship anarchy that you've encountered?
Aspen: Absolutely. There's many, many joys. One of the immediate joys for me was dropping jealousy. And not dropping it as in I don't feel it anymore, or it doesn't impact my life anymore because it's always theirs and it's good to be able to be in touch with like those feelings, but dropping it in a way is like my ego or my sense of self is damaged if I don't react in an intense way because of this and being able to be like, I can breathe, you know, and then once You have that space of being able to breathe and not letting jealousy dictate a lot of those, um, interactions, being able to, like, bring compersion into your life is such a joy.
I love it. Yeah, being able to find genuine happiness in the happiness of, like, so many people around you and in the relationships of people around you. So it's really fun to be, like, cuddling with someone you care about deeply in bed and helping them brainstorm how they're going to show up on the date they have tomorrow.
You know, and then have a different relationship that you go to later in that day that engages part of your mind, you know, and then being able to find a really deep connection over thought patterns or something, you know, and it's like different being able to appreciate all these different people in their uniqueness and in their unique ability.
It's quite, it's quite Nice because different people bring out different aspects of yourself and being able to value that and value relationships, not have a hierarchical stamp of value with the relationships in your life, lets you let go of some of that possessive jealousy, lets you access that compersion happiness.
for other people and lets you appreciate different relationships and the diversity that they bring to your life and like the different parts of you that they fulfill. As soon as you don't have that structure of hierarchy, yeah, you can bring a lot more value into it. And it feels just very nourishing and fulfilling.
And calming in the body as well to be able to have that myriad of relationships and be able to find that nourishment and enjoyment within them.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. To be held by so many different people that care for you and yeah, highlight the different aspects, the parts of you, which I think Many of us understand easily and in our society about platonic connections of like, yeah, I have these different friends that do these different things and they see different parts of me.
Uh, but then there's often that restriction on what intimacy can look like. Right. So then, yeah, to be able to snuggle, kiss, make love. Have kinky play, like just the full range with so many different people. You've got so many different sides of yourself highlighted that you, we, again, in platonic connections, we understand how one friend would never highlight all of us.
Right. And so to be able to have that in so many different ways and to play with that. And yeah, I published a guide on jealousy and combining a lot of the psychedelic work that I do. And I think that, It's important to remember that in, in our psychedelic trips, it's never that we'll never have a bad trip, right?
Even if you've done a thousand of psych psychedelic experiences, right? The reality is the first time is a little bit more intense than the fifth or the 10th, right? So we honor that. For all of our newbies in this space. It is intense at the beginning. And that's often predicated upon your set and setting.
Are you doing this with people who are talking to you, right? Did you come from purity culture like myself? Whoa, what a journey, you know, but even in that you're a thousand trips in, you know, in the wrong mindset and setting. You can have an experience of jealousy that is intense. And so how do we get curious about what's going on in that rather than beating ourselves up, getting curious about those factors, but in these expansive set and setting spaces, you can have beautiful.
experiences that are full of so much pleasure. And I think it's so important to talk about that as part of the joys. Because if we continue with the metaphor of psychedelics for relationship, anarchy, and expansive relating our current state. Setting culturally is not conducive for this. No, I do not see enough of this out in the world.
And so you are trying to do this experience in a really complex setting. So to have people like you to have people like me who talk about, wow, to be clear, I feel really secure here. This space of all of these relationships, all these different people that love and show up for me. There's actually so much security here.
Let me tell you, it is possible.
Aspen: Totally. Absolutely. I really like the bringing the set and setting into relationships and like, because relationships are a trip. Yes.
Nicole: Yeah.
Aspen: Relationships are a trip and yeah, you're gonna have great ones and you're gonna have not so great ones. And a lot of it is set and setting.
Do you have agency over, you know, you have agency over your set to an extent that you can, you know, sometimes you don't. That's okay. Um, you have less agency over your setting, but you can also access that agency, you know, you can also engage in your community or in your politic and try and change that setting as well.
So there's agency in both areas and there's lacks of agency in both areas. Yeah, it explains a lot for relationships and navigating them in jealousy and these feelings.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. I'm really glad to hear that the metaphor is resonating with you. It's definitely been how I've seen my, uh, My life personally, the clients I have through the pleasure practice, my therapy clients, like this is sort of a lens and I hope that the field of psychology in general does more of that work.
We do so much understanding of the mindset and less of contextual setting right there. Like in my school, I, you know, I got taught like psychodynamic, CBT, humanistic, and then systems, systems being like what sort of, you know, cultural containers and things you're in. But why is that set out as something completely?
So, I mean, everything is about systems as well as your own set of what's going, Oh, no, you know, and even like psychodynamic. Theory will talk about how your parents messed you up, right? Like that is your setting and your relation. I like, I just hope we come to a space of deeper understanding rather than individualistic, uh, diagnoses into a broader set and setting of what's going on for people in the setting part is often forgotten.
You guys were struggling under capitalism. Of course. That's, you know, like, oh my God. Of course. Right? So it's like, uh, but I'll, I'll go down, I'll go down a rabbit hole there, . So, um, the last question of the research today is what do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy?
Aspen: That the fulfillment that you can feel and access.
Like how deep it is and how nourishing that is, the security that you can feel, like you mentioned, how strong and warm and enriching that feels, you know, talking with people about like alternative relationship styles or patterns. They'll say it's nice, but they'll diminish it next to monogamy, you know, like, Oh, that sounds fun, but once you find the person you'll know, you know, and I'm like, I really want people to know that, like, those feelings that, You are desiring or accessing, and that safety, that nourishment, that fulfillment, that exists within relationship anarchy, and you can access that and feel that here.
You don't have to, but you can, and it does exist there. And it isn't any, yeah, any less fulfilling, or the relationships aren't any less deep or strong because of the pattern.
Nicole: Right, right, right. We talk about the excitement of a love story, right? And all the joy, all of the happiness, and then talk about doubling it, tripling it, quadrupling it.
Whoa. Oh my God. Whoa. Like this is a level of love I've yet to experience before, you know, and of course the realities are, you know, time and energy are not abundant resources. So. The ways when I have four different love stories, you know, they're all going in different directions. I can't see everybody the same amount of time, you know, like, so that's an, an, uh, finiteness of our humanists, right?
Like, that is always going to be there, but to be able to write that many stories of joy and that level of security. I mean, it is pretty amazing. profound. And I think the biggest thing of the set and setting right is the community, the setting of the people. Because if you do this with people who say, I'm a relationship anarchist, you can't control me.
I'm not going to sit down to have conversations with you. You would look at this and say, I will never do that drug again. That was the worst experience I've ever had of my life. And I would say that is super valid. That acid trip was Who is in a very bad setting, I respect your pain, I respect the validity of your suffering and your hurt, but to know that another world is possible when you're in a different container, when you're in a different setting, oof, and often times you can tell people about that, you can tell them about it, but it's until they see it, until they live into it in their own lived experience.
Experience that they'll know that because otherwise, yeah, the setting for this is rough outside So so meeting the community and then once you get tapped into that community you start to notice like aspects of your life change You're like, whoa, like everyone's really thoughtful. Everyone's really good at communication.
Like of course, we're human So we still make mistakes, but damn like this is a good circle. I like this totally
Aspen: Yeah, it's nice. Like, the skills that you have to develop to be able to do it in a good way are really nice skills to have people close to you. Like, for everybody to have those or be working on those is like, it's really nice.
Um, because yeah, even when people do like mess up or you mess up or, you know, people get hurt for whatever reason, like, Being able to deal with that with a certain skill set with a certain understanding is, it's honestly, it's really nice. Um, yeah, within my, like, QPR, having the dynamic of the three of us has been really nice and helpful when there has been like conflict that's naturally arisen and like, being able to have it.
Support on both sides and like, hey, like, I think this person, if you just said, like, this, like, one sentence, it would mean a lot to them. And, you know, and then you do it and then you're like, hey, that meant a lot to me. And you're like, oh, like, that's really nice. Like, yeah, so. The setting is bad, and our sets are bad because of it.
Nicole: Yep, yep. I know.
Aspen: But when you access that community, you can almost like, on a certain scale, you can, if you and the And you're intentional about the people that you're getting, becoming intimate with, and you have a certain, yeah, a certain skill set or a certain mindset even, and those other people do too.
It almost creates a bit of a different setting. It's like as a microcosm within the larger setting that we exist within.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Absolutely, absolutely. So well said. Well, as we come towards the end of our time today, I'm going to take a deep breath with you
and then see if there's anything else that you'd want to share with the listeners. Otherwise, I can guide us towards our closing question.
Aspen: If there was anything to share, it's if you enjoy dismantling hierarchies in the interpersonal, dismantle hierarchies within the community as well. And if you enjoy dismantling hierarchies within your community, dismantle them within your interpersonal.
Spread anarchy. Yeah! That's the message that I would like to share.
Nicole: Hell yeah, so beautiful. Yes. Alright, well if it feels good to you, we can go towards our closing question.
Aspen: That sounds good.
Nicole: So the last question that I ask everyone on the podcast is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Aspen: Again, I've heard you ask this on the podcast.
Nicole: Yes, you knew! I knew. It's different when you're actually there, right?
Aspen: It's different when you're on the other side of it, yeah. Yeah. What's one thing that I wish people knew was more normal? Say, building a relationship with yourself. Everybody does it, but I feel like nobody acknowledges it very strongly.
It's a lot of times our relationships. When we talk about it, it's always about the other, the other, the other. And I wish people knew it was normal to take space and go on a walk by yourself. That's not a bad thing, you know, you don't have to feel like self pity. If you don't have anyone to hang out with on a given afternoon and you cook for yourself and you listen to music with yourself and you do some writing or art with yourself, that's normal and it's beautiful.
Nicole: Absolutely. One of my favorite things to do both personally and to invite my clients to try is journaling. Right? I, I wake up and journal and what we're essentially doing is. Creating our story, creating our narrative. My relationship to self is in those words, like, good morning. Like, here's the day, here's what's on my heart.
Like that is me actively, instead of just thinking the narrative, taking the time to write it down and then to remember that I'm the author. You're the author, right? We're all the authors of our story. So if in the past, you know, I've got a lot of clients who like speak poorly of themselves, you know. What would it mean to actually pause and rewrite a different sentence, whether it's quite literally on the paper or in your mind?
And I know working with clients that feels radically uncomfortable. It's like riding a bike. You get on there and you say, what am I doing? I don't know. This is the first time I've told myself I love myself, right? It feels weird, but like any other skill, it becomes normal. It becomes easier. It becomes muscle memory and stuff.
So even just myself to look back on my journals from past times where it was not as loving and as kind to get to a space where I'm at now. I just love to invite people to grab that pen and paper and write it out and look, look in the mirror of your own words. What are you telling yourself about yourself?
And then to remember your empowerment, to write a whole new narrative and starting to step into that even though it's uncomfortable.
Aspen: Absolutely. 1000%. Um, yeah. I love being able to find love and appreciation with oneself.
And yeah, it's normal to spend that time alone and take that time with yourself. But there's also so much value when it comes to putting in the work and bringing in that.
Love and that care.
Nicole: Absolutely. Well, I'll share my gratitude for you today. I really appreciate you for trusting me to come onto the podcast to be vulnerable about your insights and your lived experience. And so I'm always honored when people take up the call to have this relationship anarchy interview.
I'm so touched that you trusted me and could come on the podcast today. So thank you.
Aspen: Thank you so much for having me. I'm very honored to have been invited on, and it's been great. Thank you so much for all of the work that you do. I'm very excited to read your book at some point in the future.
Nicole: Thank you.
Thank you. It's been a blast. I appreciate that. If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast. And head on over to ModernAnarchyPodcast. com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
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