Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole. On today's episode, we have Claire,
Join us for a conversation all about challenging the status quo of eroticism. Together we talk about learning to receive sexual pleasure, transforming jealousy into erotic energy, and how your community shapes the expansiveness of your fantasies. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.
My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice, supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear listener, unleashing your divine whore. Yes, just yes, yes, yes.
How can we ride that line between the Madonna and the whore? How can we stand in both to really rewrite the narratives of what is a whore? possible. Gosh, this podcast space, as well as this conversation specifically, I hope is a step in that direction to understand that you can absolutely be your sluttiest self and your most educated, holy, spiritual, all of that stuff, right?
It's time to break this, this box of one or the other, and to know that we can embody Both. And that journey to embodying both is never ending, right? I continue to take one step each day a little bit closer to that and yeah, just the ways that your community shapes the expansiveness of your fantasies, dear listener, you know I am always talking about how relationships Shape our sense of self and it also directly impacts what you can think about in terms of your fantasies, what fantasies feel okay, what fantasies feel forbidden.
Right? And so just a reminder, dear listener, you know, speaking from personal experience, I will just say that if you date a man, And he happens to tell you that you're too verbal. God forbid she goes and gets a doctorate in clinical psychology and she's, uh, too verbal. Or a man tells you that you're too sexual.
Because, I mean, God forbid a woman liberate her own sexual power. Run far, far, far away from that man, okay? As Claire said, getting in trouble, all these moments are a reminder that you are on the path, and if you are scaring some men because you have a voice, and because you are embodied, please, dear listener, Just as much as I am reminding myself right now that that is a sign that you are on the right.
All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources at modernanarchypodcast. com, linked in the show notes below. And I want to say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.
So, thank you. If you want to join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my personal exploration and research, then you can head on over to patreon. com slash modernanarchypodcast. And with that, dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode. So then the first question I like to ask is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Claire: Yeah, thank you, Nicole. Um, so I am a dating relationship and sex coach, and I essentially help my clients to really release the shame. particularly around sex. Um, I know myself, I was carrying a huge amount of sexual shame and, you know, I know that you'll know this, but essentially sexuality and owning our sexuality is a part of who we are.
And so I really support them in Getting back to their true self and stripping back, conditioning the societal norms and really helping them to, yeah, awaken to, to who they fully are and live a life by their terms.
Nicole: Fun. You're in the right podcast space.
Claire: Oh yes. Hell yeah.
Nicole: I'd love to hear a little bit more about your journey, you know, how you've gone through this yourself and kind of where you're at today with it all.
Claire: Yeah. And I, I really walk my talk, you know, I talk a lot about trusting your intuition, like getting out of your head. Um, I, one thing I didn't ask you is if I'm allowed to swear. Yes.
Nicole: There are no rules in this space. Go for it.
Claire: I assume so because I was just about to drop an f bomb and I was like, Oh, you didn't check, did you?
Um, brilliant. I, I assumed that, but I like to ask, yeah, essentially I, I help them fuck logic and embody unshakable trust. And, and I think. You know, my journey has been very much about embodying that myself. And that's how I really feel like I can coach people authentically. I know how uncomfortable it is to one, let go of, you know, what you thought you wanted.
What you were led to believe, you know, in society and actually follow what is your true path that doesn't bloody well make sense ever.
And just follow those little breadcrumbs. And I think, you know, so often I see that people, you know, will talk about they've got a really strong intuition, but. It's actually stepping into that.
That is the most important thing. That's when you really embody that trust. And so my life, I just give you a very short kind of like background and I'm sure it will create some juicy questions. Um, so I, was married for 19 years with my ex husband for 21. And in July, 2021, I went through what I can only describe as a spiritual awakening, which awakened me sexually as well.
And suddenly it was like something had shifted in my body. And I actually felt that in this particular moment, I was actually in the middle of leading a retreat. Yeah, I was holding the space for all these women. The first retreat I'd ever led previously, I'd just been doing one to one coaching, but I'd had what I'd say was divine guidance to lead a retreat.
And when you are fully aligned, things, and you take those steps that disappear. I tell you, like, everything just goes boom, boom, boom. And this is what happened with that. It was like, I got the thought drop in 48 hours, two women had paid in full within 10 days. It was full
and then it was like, Oh, I'm doing this.
I'm doing this. And what the fuck am I going to be teaching them? And it was like, Yeah. Well, you're not teaching them anything. You're coaching them. Right. So all you're doing is you are showing up and they're going to bring the content essentially. Yeah. I learned this. But, um, anyway, what I didn't really realize is how transformational that would be for me.
Nicole: Sure.
Claire: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Huge. Huge. And. I talk about my life from this point because this really was the point where I really woke up to myself and yeah, navigated this awakening and it was like this energetic shift in my body. I remember feeling that and then going to this state of I'm turned on. Mm-Hmm.
Like all the time. Yeah. Like 24 7. No, let up . It was like this insane energy. You are nodding like Mm-hmm. Yeah. You're life. You like this feeling? Totally. Life is turning you on. I am alive, right? Yeah. I am alive. And I remember I got back to my family and my ex-husband didn't recognize me. He did not recognize the woman who walked back in the door.
I don't blame, blame him for that and the way that he reacted to me. Um, because yeah, it was like, I was being myself. And I think for years I recognized that I was shrinking to essentially keep him comfortable. Right. Like I did that to myself, like I fully own that, right.
Nicole: Yeah. Right.
Claire: And. I think, you know, we are wired to, or I certainly was wired to, or conditioned to be the good girl.
Don't say anything nice. If you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all. Oh, okay. So I just squished the pieces that, uh, you know, me fully express me wanting to maybe scream about something or be angry about something. Right. Or share an opinion. Like, no, you don't do that. Right. So I was very much conforming for most of my life.
And then this whole shift happened. And. So many like really, really huge kind of like spiritually awakening moments happened from that point. And I guess on reflection, it was like my subconscious knew it was leaving soon. I didn't know when. I didn't have a plan in place to go. Okay, I'm going to tell him on this day that I'm going to leave.
I had recognized I'd not been happy for a long time. I'd done a lot of work on myself. I'd worked with a lot of coaches and was really looking at my role in the relationship. And. Yeah. And then I got back from the retreat and it was literally 25 days later. I said, well, the words fell out of my mouth. I'm leaving you.
Nicole: Yeah. How'd that land? Yeah. Yeah.
Claire: Yeah. It was. I mean, I will never forget the moment. I'm not going to lie. It was heartbreaking to witness the person that I'd married and still love the father of my children. Of course. I still cared for this man enormously, just was not in love with him anymore. And I could see how we were just not in alignment in so many areas of our lives.
And I recognized I needed to just prioritize myself and say yes to me, but it was horrible to witness those first few days. I could see the pain he was in. He was heartbroken and It was watching him go through these stages of grief. Like I knew what was going on and there was nothing comfortable about it, but not for a second, did I even consider changing my mind, like just never even came into my mind at all.
thought process.
It was like, it was like my soul was going, this is non negotiable now. Like we've been telling you, we've been nudging you. And it's a bit like coming back to what I was talking about your intuition. Like, I think my intuition had been telling me for years, but I know it had, I'd ignored it.
Right. And it was like, okay, right now. That's it now.
And this energy just gave me that courage to let those words fall out of my mouth.
Nicole: Yeah. I mean, it's so hard, particularly for women, right? The people pleasing, we're all conditioned. Like you said, you do be the good girl, you know, you don't want to hurt other people.
Right. Just to even say those words, I can imagine just the, you know, the conflict that was going on in your head and your body and going back and forth and back and forth. And once you say those words there, they're out, you know, there is no taking that back. And so even that moment of bringing that out, I could only imagine was such a significant experience.
And I can, again, only imagine how many women are in relationships. It's feeling that gut intuition that, you know, this is no longer the relationship for me, but because of societal conditioning of you're supposed to stay with this person for the rest of your life. This is the 1 person my parents watched me get married, right?
All of that sort of stuff that is kind of sitting there and. I think that when we have those gut moments of it speaking to us of saying, get out, get out, when you don't listen, you know, what ends up happening is your energy starts to fall. You're a little bit sadder. The world is not turning you on anymore.
Right? Like it is for us right now. We're like, hell yeah, I love life. You know, it's, it's that, Ooh, the vibration goes so much down. Get sick easier. All these other ways that the body and the soul is speaking to us. But it's so hard to jump into the unknown of what is on the other side of that statement of, I want a divorce, right?
Claire: Yeah, the fear is paralyzing and, you know, that had played out through my mind, you know, I'd say a couple of years before I'd actually said the words, and, um, I don't know if you know the book Untamed by Glennon Doyle. Brilliant.
Nicole: I'll write it down. I'll write it down.
Claire: Oh, I read that book four times. Wow. 18, over the 18 months before I left.
It was speaking to you, clearly. It was so speaking to me. I was just looking if I had it on my desk. No, I don't. But, um, it's like one of my most highlighted books. And there was, There were some really powerful points in there that I often use in like keynote speeches that really spoke to me and one of them was disappoint everyone else around you before you disappoint yourself.
Nicole: That's hard. Because what does it mean to be in community? My brain goes like, ah, what's compromise? What does it mean to like not, yeah, but, but particularly for women, I think given the people pleasing tendencies, like that's a really important message because it's not like we're balanced in this, right?
We're, we're frequently dropped on the face in the sense of we need to give to other people. So that message means so important, but then what does it mean to actually be in community with multiple partners? And I'm having to like. Navigate everyone's needs, you know,
that's where my brain goes.
Claire: Sure. Of course.
Yeah. Yeah. And we always look at things based on our own situation, right? You know, we reflect and that's really powerful, but, but yeah, no, that really spoke to me that line. And I think also the other piece in the book was all around like, you know, what I was modeling to my children.
Nicole: Sure, yeah.
Claire: So it was two things, it was like my own happiness, and then it was like, Okay, what am I modeling to them?
Is this relationship that I desire for them? And it was a no. And yeah, once I really saw those two pieces, I think then it was like, yeah, the words were clearly coming. And I didn't know how they were coming, but they just came.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. So how long was it in between that period and when you finally said the words?
Claire: Well, I'd been, I'd probably been sitting on it, you know, I'd been sitting on it for years I'd say, and then, you know, I'd read the book, you know, like 18 months prior to saying it and then, you know, had the actual shift in my body energetically. And that was about three weeks before the words fell out of my mouth.
And I didn't know what the next step was. I remember my ex husband saying. You know, like, have you thought about how we're going to work everything out? Like, what's the plan? And I was like, don't know that bit. All I know is to tell you this. And yeah, it's like what you were saying, like it's stepping into the unknown, stepping into the fire.
Mm-Hmm. . And yeah, we're scared because everything we've been taught is you get married, you stay forever.
Nicole: Yeah. Mm-Hmm. .
Claire: And you think about the vows that most people make.
Nicole: Yeah.
Claire: You know, particularly if you've got married in a church.
Nicole: Right.
Claire: It's, um. Till death is due part. Mm-Hmm. And I think the other thing for me, I really noticed was I come from a broken family.
Nicole: Mm.
Claire: So I never actually wanted that for my children. Right, of course. 'cause I know what that felt like. But because I know what that feels like, actually in a way, I think that's actually made me. Support them in a better way. I mean, you know, only they'll be able to where they only know me isn't their mom, right?
But, um, I feel I have a lot of compassion for what they've had to go through.
Nicole: Yeah, because you've, you've done it yourself to know.
Claire: Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. Makes sense. And I'm just hearing, though, the importance of, like you said, is this a relationship that I would want them to see, right? Of course, there's the complexities of, of the divorce and the separation and how that impacts them, but that other side of would you want this to be the model of love for them, right?
Claire: Yeah, it is. Yeah, it really is. And I think a lot has happened since.
Nicole: Yeah, you're smiling. Yeah. You want to get to the juicy parts?
Claire: A lot has happened since. And I think, you know, I, I see my children, like, you know, look at me and some of the things they say to me now, it's like, it's like, they've had this mom that was conforming for all those years.
And then suddenly, like, she's totally. Taken the wheels off and she is unleashed. And, uh, my son said to me not long ago, something like, um, Mum, do you, do you, is it me or are you actually aging backwards? I'm like, I like that. I'll take that. I do like that too, yeah. I'll take that and I think, you know, it is, I look back at photos and I look younger, you know, and I think when you are doing that emotional work inside, you see it on the outside.
Nicole: Mm-Hmm. , yeah. Joy. It's that life force, that joy, that vitality of feeling turned on by life that is speaking to you that brings the smile, the, the energy that you have, right? So yeah. I'm curious, you know, yeah, you're going through this difficult moment. The words fall out your mouth, right? You have that unknown and you step into it.
When do you start? Cause I know it's not that simple of, you know, from good to, from the difficult to the good, but when does it start to step into the space where you're feeling your life force kind of come back and the vitality that you're feeling now?
Claire: To be honest, like I think I was feeling that.
Instantly, but was in like this process of still a little bit worrying about what people thought and things like that. Because on paper, you know, it appeared that, you know, we had the dream life. We had the fairy tale, you know, even talk about that and go, you know, I thought that's what I wanted was the fairy tale.
And I think back to when I. was a child and I think about what I used to draw, I wasn't an arty person, right? I wouldn't put myself as an arty person. I'm creative for sure. But, um, you know, when it comes to drawing and coloring that, yeah, I can color in the lines. I used to do that very well. Right. But anyway, I think about it and I think I always used to draw the same pictures.
Which was the house, the car, you know, the mom and the dad and the children, you know, it was like, that's how much I believed that's what I want. And don't get me wrong, like, I'm really grateful for my family and that experience, but now it's like, Oh, I want something different. And I can't even remember what your question was.
Nicole: That's okay. This is the unfolding. I mean, I'm just thinking about the ways that we're so conditioned, right? We're so conditioned and not just in love and relationships, other areas too, right? Like, You go to college, you go to university, you get this job, you do this sort of thing where you run the business and make the money and you go on vacation versus like an anarchist utopia of like, what's actually beyond capitalism, right, of, of dreaming of a whole different world of what could all of this system look like if we were beyond that, but given what we've been taught, conditioned, it's kind of limits.
It's our ability to dream. And so I feel the same way about relationships, right? We're told this is the one way, this is what you do. And it's really hard to dream beyond that because we don't have models. We don't have examples of this sort of stuff.
Claire: Yeah. A hundred percent. And it's true. It's, you know, when we start to.
strip back that conditioning. And that's essentially the process I went through was really like throwing everything up in the air, like everything and going, that's not mine. That's not my belief. That's, you know, People fell away, you know, obviously my marriage broke up, but the beliefs that I was carrying particularly around sexuality.
Oh my gosh, like, you know, I've been dating for the past two years or so. And, you know, I really had to really look at these to be able to allow myself to have as much fun and freedom. In that whole world. Um, and I have helped me, you know, not only explore, learn more about myself, it's helped me heal.
Oh yeah.
But, um, it's also helped me to really get to a place now and I'm so clear about what I want. Yeah. That's exciting because I've allowed myself to fully, fully embrace the dating world. Like I've written a whole book on it. Um, so yeah,
Nicole: I feel that
Claire: so I think I.
Nicole: Yeah, go on. I just don't think there's, there's no end, at least personally for me, to unpacking the ways that sex and these messaging and rrrr, like I continue to think like, Oh, I figured this thing out.
I've deconstructed this. And then like another thing pops up and I'm like, wow, okay, what's next? Like, I just imagine we'll be spending the rest of our lives kind of, um, digging up all of the, you know, systems and the way that those are so deep in our subconscious. Um, even for me, just having multiple partners and the idea of having sex with multiple people in a way that's not casual at all.
Right? Like, to have deep, romantic, um, relationships with multiple people and to want to be understood as like a divine whore in terms of all that I do, particularly given my purity culture background, knowing that I'm a feminist, knowing the Madonna whore complex has existed for so long of being unable to be both, and I'm sure maybe you could Speak to that as a mother.
Like I'm not a mom, I'm not running the Madonna side as much, you know, but I'm trying to like actively as a activist in the space, I'm trying to ride that center line of being like, yeah, I'm slutty. Yes. Yeah,
Claire: I love that. Yes. I love how you described yourself there, a divine whore. Yeah. Yes. One of the books literally in front of me is Ethical Slut.
Nicole: Oh, totally. I did
Claire: a, um, I did a workshop actually called Own Your Slut.
And so, yeah, I love that. this. Um, so are you polyamorous? Is, is that right?
Nicole: I would say I'm a relationship anarchist.
Claire: Oh, okay.
Nicole: Yeah. Have you heard of that term?
Claire: No, I haven't. Tell me. Yeah. Yeah.
Nicole: It's, um, so it's applying anarchist philosophies of deconstructing power systems to your relationships.
And so what that ends up looking like is concepts like the relationship escalator. Are you familiar with that?
Claire: No, I'm not.
Nicole: Yeah, it's this idea of like, um, there's a book called Getting Off the Relationship Escalator by Amy Graham. Amy Graham, I think is the writer. So I did my dissertation on relationship anarchy.
And so like just thinking about this concept of, you know, if the relationship escalator is you, you date, you get married, you have the kids, you live together. I think live together would have came before that actually. But the escalator, right? So it's this concept of like, Ooh, what if we take a critical lens to that?
And we take a critical lens to all these different ways that we have prescriptive ways of being in relationship and start to come from a space of what does it mean to look at each individual relationship and allow it to build on its own capacity, rather than having these scripts or these boxes. And in the act of doing that, Trying to do it in a way that's non hierarchical as much as possible.
Obviously you're going to have prioritized people, people that you spend more time with than others, but not in this way of necessarily like hierarchical polyamory where there's veto powers and stuff like that. And so it ends up being like a pretty wide community of relationships I have that are all very different, but it feels very much so outside of the binary of monogamy or non monogamy because My relationship anarchy also conceptualizes the importance of platonic connections in my world.
Um, in a way that polyamory kind of highlights the more sexual romantic and obviously platonic too. But again, then let's just get outside of that binary, you know, and like, and just see the world through a much more expansive way through relationship anarchy. But I'm obviously, you know, I've drinking the Kool Aid.
I wrote the dissertation on it. I'm doing the research on it. Take that.
Claire: Yeah, that's incredible. I'd love to interview you for my podcast and dive into it deeper. That is really, yeah. Amazing.
Nicole: It's hard, I guess, trying to like deconstruct all of the messaging that is so deeply internalized. And so for me to have, again, like there was a space of.
Play partners like in the BDSM community where that was kind of easy to conceptualize and having a a close I talked about in orbits Like I have a close orbiting partner and then some play partners that orbit at a wider circle But then to have like two really close orbiting partners And multiple play partners.
I've just gone through so many different, Oh, am I selfish? Am I hurting you? Are we all okay? You know, just endless.
Claire: Oh, yes. Stripping back so much. That's so incredible. Yeah. I love the description of the relationship escalator because yeah, that is, it's like what is portrayed, isn't it? And you know, there's this whole narrative, I think, when Women get to, you know, close to 30 and it's like society has this brainwash narrative of.
Oh, you're still single. You're going to be left on the shelf. Have you thought about children? All that stuff, and it's like maybe that isn't what they want, right? Maybe they want to fuck off and travel the world. Maybe they want to create multiple relationships like you're doing, like, and I think, um, yeah, it's so, when you start to put a lens on this, And you start to really free yourself and go, actually.
What really feels exciting to me, you know, and it changes and evolves, right? I've found that in two and a half years that I've been single, you know. I'm still single. I'm like, how am I still single? Claire, you chose that. Sometimes I'm like, I just sometimes just like a boyfriend. So I know it's not going to be a traditional relationship.
I know that.
Nicole: Right.
Claire: Um, and I play very much in sex positive communities. Um, yeah. That really vibes with me, you know, I like people are, who are really open and expressed and can talk about sex over breakfast.
Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Totally.
Claire: So, um, every single guy I meet, you know, very much is, you know, looking at something non monogamous.
Yeah. And that, you know, can be all sorts of different flavors and varieties, right? There's a whole spectrum, um, but I think, yeah, it's, it's about the communication between that partnership and whatever is created.
Nicole: Yeah, and we're at a very unique time in history when we think about it, right? A hundred years ago, at least in the States, Margaret Sanger was being arrested for talking about contraception, right?
It's been a hundred years that, you know, so you and I having this conversation about not just contraception, but Pleasure. Right? And, and we're not being arrested. We might be judged professionally, you know, by whoever of whoever, but no longer are we fearing the threats of the carceral state, which is a very different space.
And when we think about women's liberation in terms of pay, obviously the pay gap still exists, right? But we're in a different world now where I don't need to get married to be able to have financial success. In fact, maybe shift If someone marries me and we get divorced, I might be giving them alimony from my money.
You know what I mean? As a doctor to be right. So like, you know, it's just a whole different world where in the past, like women truly didn't even have this space of liberation to live on their own, let alone what, get a credit card in the States that was in the seventies and the seventies. Oh yeah. 1975 here.
Yeah. That was 50 years ago that women could have credit to make large payments. Purchases. So just in terms of women's history generally and relationships, we have no idea what women want, right? Like we are stepping into a space where women are getting this choice now as we're deconstructing this to sit and be like, Oh, what actually do we want?
I'm curious, you know, as a researcher, I'm really curious.
Claire: Yeah. And I find, you know, when I have clients, potential clients come to me, you know, obviously that's one of the first questions I'll ask them. Honestly, most people do not know, not just, not just women, men too. Right. But, um, but yeah, I think, you know, with the conditioning women very much so have not had.
That choice available because they've been so dependent on the man and that has repressed. Their sexuality big time.
Nicole: Oh, totally. Yes. Men, control. Mine. She's mine. She's mine. Right? Any idea of going out is really destabilizing, uh, for a lot of men, right? And of course it's also destabilizing for all people in terms of, um, Learning to feel secure in the attachments of freedom and all of that.
But particularly for the social conditioning of men, there's a lot of messaging around that is your possession. That is your person. That is your wife, your girlfriend, your whatever, and you need to satisfy her. And so she goes out to other people, you're failing. And that, that messaging, I guess, is across all genders, too.
I think a lot of women would feel that way, too. It's part of the social conditioning that if you have. It means you're somehow failing your partnership, which is funny to me because we don't do that with friendship, right? We never do that with friendship. I don't ever look at my friends and be like, you have multiple friends?
That means that I'm not satisfying all of your relational needs? Sorry, Claire, it's just ridiculous. It's really, really hard for me to sit with.
Claire: Oh, I'm so, so with you. And I think it's funny. I had this conversation. I've done a lot of work with sexological body workers, um, over the last couple of years and, um, You are?
Nicole: Powerful. I've had some experiences. Very powerful.
Claire: Oh my gosh. I, I just love it. Yeah. It's been incredible. And, you know, just helped my body to release so much and my God, fast way to get all your patterns show up. Right?
Nicole: Yeah. Caretaking. Immediately. I must caretake for this person. Wait. No, your pain. Oh, okay.
Okay. Okay. Receive. Nicole, receive. Receive. Receive.
Claire: Receive. Exactly. Receive. Yeah. And, but I remember having this conversation with one of my practitioners around ownership and we were talking about like, you know, if there is, um, like we were talking about how, you know, I don't want to be owned by a man, but there's something quite sexy about being owned in the bedroom.
So you can play with that in different ways, if that's like your, your kink and your turn on. And, you know, not necessarily see it as taking your freedom away or, yeah, because you're not anyone's. You are. You and no one has that control or power over you. There
was a post I was started writing this morning, actually, that really links into this, which is about men.
Letting their women flirt with anyone because, you know, there's a problem with that. It's nothing to do with the woman, right? I know that was a big part of how I was really suppressing myself. I'm a massive flirt,
Nicole: which makes me so sad. What the hell you're talking about? Again, I support all relational dynamics.
People who want to do monogamy, beautiful. You should be able to experience joy and connection with other people and flirt and know that it's not going to go anywhere because you've made a commitment to someone. And that's okay. Like, oh, it's okay. What a wild world that we repress our joy in conversation just to be excited and interested and show like joy with that person.
Like if you've made a commitment of monogamy, beautiful, don't go beyond that. Right. But like, what a crazy idea. And then. Even for me to like, take it further. Yeah, go kiss the guy, go have sex with a man, go have the vacation with the other guy. Right? Like there's so much possibility of your life force here that gets repressed.
And I, I appreciate what you said about, um, the, the belonging, right? Like I, I love in the bedroom to play with the belonging. I mean, whether it's a DS dynamic, right. And I'm the sub and it's, it's a master. And we have that sort of like. I'm, you know, consensually giving my power to you in this moment. Um, that's a deep belonging.
Other times of even more vanilla experiences of like, tell me I'm your girl, tell me I'm your woman. And like, I say that knowing that we have multiple, but I am their woman, right? And in that moment and in general too, because when I say, yeah, when I say my friends, like my friends, these are my friends.
There is a possessive in that. These are. My friends, but in the possessiveness of belonging, there is no control. Like there's a possessiveness of belonging. You belong in my orbit. You are a part of my world, but I don't restrict who else you talk to. And so it's like, I am your woman to claim that. And a woman who has the freedom to fly and comes home, you know, like, I don't like this metaphor cause it makes me be a dog, right.
But, or an animal, right. But like there are, there are animals we have that have like outdoor relationships and they go and. Go and fly and they come back, you know, they go and scourge out there and they come back. That's my cat But it goes outdoors, you know? Totally. I need a better metaphor than that. But like I keep thinking about that as like as the yes and of belonging and freedom at the same time.
Claire: I really relate to that. I remember um, a sex coach asked me that question um, last year when I was heartbroken over some guy and um, He said to me, Claire, are you a dog or a cat? Because I think, I think I was, the way I was talking to him was like, yeah, you know, this is going to be the one. And he was like, Are you sure that you're looking for monogamy and I was like, you know, I think maybe because I think there's still a part of that's what I, you know, have grown up with.
And so, but I know that that's not what I'm creating, but yeah, he was like, are you a dog? Are you, are you going to be a dog or a cat? And I was like, Oh, a cat. A cat has way more fun and that sense of independence and freedom and yeah, go out to play. But, you know, obviously within the boundaries of that.
Dynamic. So now I think it's a brilliant way to describe it. But going back to the, um, you know, the mind, she's mine. And that, you know, very conditioned kind of toxic masculinity kind of ownership piece. All of it comes back to abandonment, the fear of abandonment, the fear of being alone. And, you know, very much my journey.
Um, funnily enough in my marriage, I always felt really super secure as soon as I left. My abandonment wound came straight up since I stepped into dating and literally, wow, just healing layers and layers.
Nicole: Oh, yeah.
Claire: Whoa. Yeah. But most people carry an abandonment wound, you know, and fear. Rejection, fear, being alone and, you know, as human beings, you know, we, we are wired for connection, right?
Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. You think you're secure and then they don't text back for a few hours and you're like spiraling. You're like, damn it. I thought I had this under control. I don't. I don't. You know. I'm going to sit on my freaking hands. Totally. Sitting on my hands. I'm not texting. I'm not going to send the next text.
text. Nope. Nope. We're going to do something energetically.
Claire: You're, you're fucking given it all power. And it's like, Oh, right. Okay. I can see what's going on here. But, um, yeah, it doesn't go away obviously, but the power is seeing it. And I think, um, Yeah, I think actually it's a lot of, you know, I see a lot of women in particular, you know, not stepping into dating because they fear the rejection.
And yeah, there's so much joy to be missed. Joy, connection. Like I meet incredible men. Incredible. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. And I love learning about people. They help me learn about myself. Yeah. And yeah. I'm going on a date tomorrow, actually. .
Nicole: Oh good. I'm excited for you. Hell yeah. Yeah.
Claire: Yeah. I'm excited. I've not been on a date for a while.
Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, he is come through the sex positive community and I think
Nicole: Love that.
Claire: You know, just. The chats we've had already is very much like we're very much aligned and talking about. You know, we both want almost like something long term, but not within the constraints of what we've been taught.
Nicole: Good pairing.
Claire: What the details are of that yet. And that's okay. It'll unfold. Right.
Nicole: Right. Theoretically over years. Right. If it goes well, theoretically over years, right. But it will change. Exactly. There might be periods of. Fidelity sexually, it might be periods of open, like, I wish people could get more comfortable with that, right?
Like, we're talking just theoretically with this date, but, um, that you're going to have tomorrow, but I wish all people could be in that more space of like, hey, there might be times where I'm having sex with one person because you're in grads, you're in school, you're busy, you don't have that time, you know, and then there's other periods of your life or maybe it's more open and then maybe it closes back again and opens like what would it mean to actually be in more of a flow state with these things rather than these boxes because frequently people do the same thing with non monogamy, this box of like I'm here now, I'm doing this, I'm doing this, it's not feeling good, but I'm doing this.
And it's like. You don't have to do this, just so you know, like you, you could go back, you could come back into it again, you know, like just the freedom. I wish people would feel that freedom with this rather than boxes in either way.
Claire: I agree. And I think it's so tuning into how you feel, isn't it? It's living in your body and, you know, getting straight out of your head.
And when you start to feel into that and let go of the facts. You know, the people pleasing and all of that.
Nicole: It's hard. It's hard. And when you were talking earlier about the ownership thing, I think a lot of that also comes from capitalism, right? If we think about, you know, You know, there's a lot of history on the concepts of marriage and ownership really starting when we started to have private property, right?
This is my private property. This is my wife. This is my heir and my son, and they're going to get this and no one else is going to get this, right? This idea of control and the way that that continues to influence our psyche in terms of resources, right? Um, this is my person. They're my emotional support.
This is my one resource. I could never share my money with other people because people are just going to take it. Right. And that's kind of where even the concepts of relationship anarchy and mutual aid, both financially of like, we could share resources to work together. Also, we could share emotional resources to work together.
Right. It's, it's, it's so deep. These ideas of scarcity rather than abundance. And obviously, you know, Love is abundant time and energy are not though right time and energy are not your attachment to multiple people I can't know everyone's like Like full story. So there is limitations on the abundance mindset of all of it.
But I think that a lot of the internalization of capitalism and ownership is so deep in our relationships paired with, of course, this existential longing for security. We want to know that we have community. And that's where I'd be curious. Like, even when you were talking about being single, like even just a reframe, like, How many beautiful relationships do you have, Claire?
Like, I'm going to make an assumption, since you have kids, that you have more than one, right? You're not single. You're in a depth of all of these, right? Like, oh, how beautiful.
Claire: Yeah, it's true. And actually, um, So I've just moved house and it's, it's been quite a, um, stressful experience. I've moved a lot, but this one was particularly epic, probably because I didn't know where I was going until 24 hours before I was leaving.
So I was all packed, everything was packed, didn't know where I was going to be living. It was either going all to storage or was I going somewhere and landed on this. Pad. Like, I know that it was like, yeah, just divine intervention for sure. One of the things I recognize like in the last few months is like, I've been gathering these like people around me and I'm going to do like this little thank you event this weekend to just thank people for their, just their love and support.
And, you know, whether that's, they've been there to support me crying on their shoulder or. Like come and helps me with something and I think, yeah, I recognize I am. Surrounded by an abundance of incredible relationships that I've created, um, as well as my children and
Nicole: yeah. So how does it feel to just sit in that for a moment?
I think so many people could find so much benefit from just sitting in that for a moment, rather than the idea of the single and who's the one and the thing, like, look at all those beautiful relationships you have that care for you and. I've got a vibrator at home. I don't, I don't know. I could go for months without someone.
Yeah, me too.
Claire: Permanently plugged in the wall.
Nicole: Yeah, exactly. Look at all these beautiful relationships I have. We're fine. We're good. You know?
Claire: Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah.
Claire: Yeah. And, um, yeah, it's really important. I think, you know, I like that perspective, Nicole. I think it's important to really see that and see, you know, we are often, you know, very well supported.
And it's almost like this attachment to what we think getting that love is when actually we've got love all around us
and even just like moving in. In two days, I got invited to a Galentine's event with my new neighbor, my brand new neighbor. And they met a whole group of women who are called in single, right?
Because I don't know another term in this moment, but like people in the same situation as me. And I was like, Oh, Wow, like, isn't that beautiful? I'm so supposed to be here. Yeah, really lovely. Um, yeah, I think, um, a man is just a bonus.
Nicole: Totally. I don't, and, and sometimes we don't even need them, right? Like my Galentine's Day celebration is this Friday and I'm having like a couple of fems and women co top me at a dungeon, right?
Like there is no boys allowed. Like I specifically texted her chat. I was like, no boys. Just fems and women. And so I'm going to have like a whole sexual Valentine's Day experience that has no men.
No men. You know, like.
Claire: Amazing.
Nicole: We don't need them. We don't need them. It's 2024.
Claire: You know, like. 100%. 2024 is the year of abundance.
Totally. And in whatever form you desire.
Nicole: I want to be clear. I have male partners that I love dearly. I want to be very clear. But sometimes we just need a Galentine's Day. You know what I mean?
Claire: I love that. I love your style of Galentines. Thank you. Mine was not that style.
Nicole: Not yet.
Claire: Not yet. But they did have some really fun questions which I really loved.
They didn't know anything about me, right? So one of the questions was, tell your funniest sex story. And I was like, Oh shit, I just met these people.
Like, yeah, exactly. Which fucking one should I tell them? Oh my God. I've got loads. I told them the whole story. Yeah, it was brilliant. It was brilliant fun.
Nicole: Did you shock them yet?
Like, that's my thing where, like, when I get invited to something, I have to do, like, a paradigm check. Because, like, in the kink world where I'm co topping at a dungeon, you know, I could, like you said, talking about sex at breakfast, I could be like, Oh, we were fisting, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then I have to, like, Oh, okay. This person's not in this community. If I do this, this actually might be very dysregulating and activating for them in ways that they have no idea about. And so I'm constantly kind of checking of like, who's my audience?
Claire: Yeah.
Nicole: Because otherwise I'll freak some people out.
So I'm curious if you had to kind of do a little bit of a check. There was, there was one moment
Claire: because I was sharing a story about what happened when I was in India recently and I had a lot of fun, let's just say, and one of the women did say, you could have got arrested for that. And I said, yes, I am very aware.
I didn't. And yeah, it was. Probably deemed not what you would normally go and do in India, but I think, you know, I'm very much in tune with myself and it's like checking in with what felt right in the moment. And there's something quite nice about, I know that that's one of my kind of kinks is doing things that are slightly risky.
Nicole: Fun. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
Claire: That's actually a thing for me.
Nicole: Right.
Claire: So I got to experience that. Good. And yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. And I think it's so crazy too just when I think about the psychology of all of it, right? Like relationships being mirrors, right? So I've had so many different experiences like this and I think this is a good example of it, right?
That person goes. Well, hey, you could have got arrested versus a person looking at you and going, Claire, that was so hot. Oh my God. Like, yes. Like way to go. Like do it. Right. And or if now I would have met you in this moment and been like, well, that's bad, Claire. How dare you? Right. When it's so hard when we're moving through the world and looking into a mirror, a relationship and we see how they react.
It's like just inevitable human nature that evolutionarily we want to be in relationship. It's. Safe in relationship and we're social beings. And so when we look into that mirror and someone goes, that's fucked up, we immediately feel that and go, Oh, is it? Oh, no. Am I bad? Am I going to be ostracized? Oh, no.
Versus the partner who goes, Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that is something I have continually moved through of. Of having to be really conscious who I tell, not just because it activates them, right, like what I was saying before, but also because of their response and the way it impacts me, and so if I tell someone about a kink fantasy I have, and they go, that sounds fucked up, and I feel like I'm doing something fucked up.
And I, I don't need that in my life. Yes, so I have to be really careful about like who I tell these things to because otherwise it requires so much strength to really like stand in your truth and be like, cool, I got that you feel that way, but no, you know, like, that's hard. That's really hard.
Claire: Yeah, I think it is.
It's true, isn't it? I think, you know, and when. You know, when you are in this world of work, like we tend to be quite liberated and can be quite vocal about it. But I think, yeah, absolutely checking in and within my personal relationships. Yeah. I definitely know, like, who are my people that are not going to be freaked out or judge me in a certain way.
And then, yeah, causing me to do a huge amount of inner work, um, which was probably unnecessary if I maybe didn't even tell them.
Nicole: Totally. Absolutely. Yeah. Communities, they shape our identity. They shape our reality. And that's how we got into the problem in the first place, right? At least for me, coming from purity culture, Christianity.
That was reinforced by all of the people around me all of my friends that were getting married to pastors all of that right, so When you look around and that's your world That's your world. And so there has been such a shifting of my community and it's continually shifting as I step even into more, particularly, I want to be very clear empowerment for women, right?
Like I need other powerful women around me who look and say, yeah, I topped that man. I blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know what I mean? And I look at them like, yes. Versus like, Oh, I don't know what to do in the bedroom. I can't make phone calls to order food on my own. My boyfriend does that. Like, I need strong women around me.
Okay. I want to be very clear.
Claire: Yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Because, well, I think when we are being this way, there's this great, there's a great quote. It came to me earlier actually when we were talking. It's come back again. You, you probably are familiar with it. The Marianne Williamson quote.
Um, and it's all the essence of it. I'm not going to say it's a really long quote, but the essence of it is, you know, when we shine our lights, we give other others permission to really step into theirs.
Nicole: Yeah. And then the important part of the people who aren't tapped into their light feel. insecure, jealous, angry at the fact that you're shining so bright.
And that would have been me, right? I would have looked at myself and been like, who the fuck is this girl thinking that she's just some badass bitch. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I try to watch when I get that response from people. I'm like, Oh, okay. Interesting. And I wonder where they're at internally, you know?
Claire: Oh yeah. Yeah. I think I see it a huge amount, particularly when I step into spaces like gyms. Yeah, owning your body and your power.
I'm this own, I'm like, you know, give zero fucks. You know, I'll dance, I'll do whatever feels good for me. And it's, it's not conforming in any way. And I've also seen it interestingly in play parties.
Nicole: Yeah, same way.
Claire: Where, you know, I'm quite confident in who I am and that is felt. And I think when, you know, I've noticed it more interestingly with younger women and which is, is curious really, but it's almost like, I think what I'm seeing, it's like, it's their abandonment wounds showing up and they feel threatened by me.
So almost like we'll grab the guy, won't let me near them. Yeah. You know, when it had been a conversation that was okay, and then suddenly it changes. I'm like, okay, I can see where you're at. And I get it. Like, that's hard, but it's interesting when it's in that, that kind of community, because, you know, I think you think it may be more conscious, but I think, you know, they can be very hedonistic and those kinds of events.
And if you're not really intentional, and you're not really clear. About what you want to get out of it and your boundaries like, yeah, it can be a bit messy.
Nicole: Totally. Absolutely. And a lot of this journey for me has been so like values based of I know, kind of like you were saying, right, where you're like, there's these days of wondering if monogamy and the romance fetish, you know, and that path could be the thing.
But in my body, I know it's not like in my gut in the same way that my gut has been speaking me into the past. It says no. There is more that is possible and you are leaping into the unknown of that because there are no pioneers out there. Granted, the ethical slut, I've read their books. I fucking love Dossie and Janet, right?
Like they are an example, but like, ah, I need more. And so it's a joy to be a part of those examples as much as you are in the space with me, right? Right now. And so all the people that are listening in being like, wow, these, these people, these women are, are running the game. Yes, but it's scary because there is no examples of this, right?
And so we're just, we're moving into it. My gut says that, you know, but I've had so many experiences where my value system of moving in this direction is met with my attachment wounds and fears and like conditioning, and so they come up right next to each other, which reminds me a lot of rock climbing.
I'm a rock climber, right? I'll be doing hard routes. Yeah, I know. I want to get to the top. And then my brain goes, you're going to fall. Oh, no, you can't do this. Oh, no. And I have to actively sit with that and say, okay, sure. Deep breath. I'm going to keep going. And that directly parallels everything that I've done in this space.
And I specifically remember, um, you know, so I built all of my own individual relationships. I'm having this one individual relationship with this beautiful woman that I adore dearly. Um, This beautiful man that I adore dearly, and they're both connected through me. They're not connected together, and I was thinking, Yeah.
Great, what a beautiful way to have my first threesome, right? Like, I'm connected to him, I'm connected to her, versus like, Having a first threesome with maybe my male partner's other partner, a metamore, the power dynamics are different there, right? Where I felt like, cool, I'm really secure, I really love this, this woman, I really love this man, let's bring it all together, right?
And um, goddammit, this, the sex part was great, I'll be very clear, the sex part, Lovely. Loved that. Great. But the second that we were all together, and he starts touching her hand, he starts just gently rubbing her hand. I lose my shit, Claire. I go, oh, look at the nice, shiny thing that he's touching. Isn't she beautiful?
He doesn't even want me. Like, these are the thoughts going, he doesn't even want me anymore. I'm just boring. The new thing's right here. God damn it. And all of that goes through my head. Right? So I'm thinking like you and those two. Stories, being at play parties and the like, I've been there and it was like, yeah, damn it.
This was my part, like my female partner, my male partner, I felt so grounded in that power. And yet still, I'm just like, Oh, look at her. She's so beautiful. I'm nothing, you know, like, uh,
Claire: yeah. Oh, I think, um, how incredible though, to, to have that experience because you could then go. Great, because you're conscious and you can go, oh wow, like, you see it,
Nicole: so I'm like, oh, yeah.
And I keep climbing, right? Just like I see in when I'm climbing that, oh, I can't do this. We've had more experiences now. And you know what doesn't happen now? That. But the first time, holy shit, you know, and, and it took a really intense grounding in myself to be like, no, I'm beautiful. I know what I bring to the table and no one else is me.
Claire: 100%. That is powerful.
Nicole: Yes, it is.
Claire: That is powerful. Yeah, celebrating you, like really finding the space to actually find those words to lean on because it's so easy to go into the rabbit hole and actually make a complete, you could have made a complete fucking mess of the whole, you know, what might have been, you know, that, that delicious time.
Um, Yeah, I mean, it's like jealousy has been, it's a big part of the condition. It comes back in its ownership piece, right? It's all deeply interconnected. Um, a guy, um, I was dating actually, who, who was in an open marriage. Um, oh, my jealousy came up a lot.
Nicole: On which part, you or the whole bit?
Claire: Oh, both sides.
But, you know, he was, because he'd been doing, he'd been, you know, he'd been, he'd, he'd been in this open marriage for 10 years, way more experience of this. And like, suddenly, like, I'd ask him what, you know, he'd message me and I'd say, Oh, what are you up to today? And then he'd tell me how he was doing something with his wife and then running a bath.
It was small things I'm running her a bath. I'm like, fucking hell are you? I want someone to
run me a bath. Oh, triggered and activated me big time. And we had this incredible conversation about it, you know, like really upfront with him. And we talked about all of that stuff and, and he's like, You know, like how could you use that to, to get really turned on about it.
I love that. Thank you. In terms of like next time we, next time we meet, like, you know, could you bring that into a session and then Yeah. Vice versa. Like, I remember telling him I was going on a date thinking he would be all cool with that, right? Because he's been doing this for so long. He was like. Oh, I'm feeling really jealous.
And I was like, well, that's interesting, isn't it? What are you going to do with that then? He was like, wow, I'm, I'm excited that I'm feeling jealous, you know, because I feel like there's something juicy here. It's like, I remember him saying to me, it's like, you're, it's showing you're alive. Right. And we've been wired to label different emotions and feelings as good or bad and it's like actually how about seeing it as this is just what the feeling state this is an emotion and not instead of labeling it as a bad or right or good right.
Nicole: Absolutely. Yes. And there's so much erotic nature to play with that too of the jealousy because it's a yearning, right? It's a yearning. It's a desire. And so how can we channel that then to play with it? If you're right, I do want this. And I feel secure enough, key piece, that I'm not going to act out and start screaming, crying, etc.
Right? Um, I talked to Jessica Fern, you know, Polysecure.
Claire: Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah, and we were just talking about the, um, the paradigms of attachment. And when we think about childhood, children often go through a similar experience when the parents decide to have a second child.
Claire: Of course, of course.
Nicole: So thinking about all of us, we're like all relationally going through that experience as adults.
And I am so excited for your kids and the future generations that because of people like Jessica Fern, um, the Ethical Slut, this podcast, right? All these other spaces where like the collective consciousness is, is changing where I don't think that they're going to go through such a significant deconstruction.
And like, You did like I'm doing, right? And even generations above us had to do or are actively trying to do. Um, but we're all kind of going through that experience of what does it mean to still feel secure when there's another relationship just like the child, right? Second relationship. Your parents still love you.
But at that moment you're like, what, how, how? And I told my mom quite literally, I said to her, put that baby back in your belly. That was funny. We talked about that recently over the holidays. Oh yeah. I've definitely said that one in nominogamy, you know, like, no, take it out. I don't want it anymore. You know, but like, then think about the beauty of what the dynamic is that I have a sister and a brother and these other spaces that like, you know, You know, we had to adjust to, but once we did, wow, look at the fullness.
And of course, Jessica also put in the great comment, too, of thinking about, and at some point, if you have so many kids, you actually do not get your relational needs met, right? Again, there is a limitation to our time, energy, and these dynamics of having multiple people. But that paradigm of having to find security in the newness of a new relationship is uncomfortable, but absolutely possible.
Absolutely possible. Yeah.
Claire: I really heard there, like, the shift from, you know, that scarcity, how could you love her, you know, her or him, um, as well as me, like, how is that possible, right? Um, to this, like, abundance, which is obviously, you know, What you've completely created because there is an abundance of everything in the world.
Nicole: Yeah
Claire: Particularly love right?
Nicole: Yeah Exactly I know but that's hard to trust into and lean into and for me It's taken a lot of time like time has been the answer of because after that threesome experience I for a few days afterwards then I was like Well, so is he gonna secretly start texting her? Is he secretly gonna start running off with her?
Like, oh no. Oh no. And it took time to realize, oh no, that was actually just a play experience. She has her full world of partners, he has her full world of partners. Everything's actually stable. Like we're not actually gonna shift, you know, we could just play and have this quote unquote board game night, you know, with a friend, whatever.
We wanna like think about it as, right. And it didn't mean that the whole world shifted, but I had to have that. Experience of going through that that difficult fear of what what does this mean to now sit like this? No, we can do this and we can have other partners in our world and it actually, you know, there's some level of shift, right?
That was a play experience. It's very, you know, a singular moment and we can have these other moments of building relationship and there is change. Don't get me wrong. There's change again because right limited time and energy. And if you're trying to have multiple close like that's going to be a change again, like having two kids, it's a change.
But once you get to the stability of it, Mm. Yeah. Juicy.
Claire: Very
Nicole: juicy.
Claire: Yeah. I can, yeah. Only imagine what a huge growth, uncomfortable time that was because yeah, it's not just the situation, it's, it's how our heads then go into the whole stories of the what ifs scenarios and it's like, oh,
Nicole: yep, yep.
Claire: But yeah, powerful in, in, you know.
cementing and anchoring that security in yourself and realizing that that was just a lot of stories.
Nicole: Right.
Claire: And we do it with everything, don't we?
Nicole: And we can't blame ourselves, right? I mean, any rom com I watch goes, if you fall in love with the second person, leave the first because you never really loved them, right?
Like this stuff isn't, it's not even my choice, right? Like this is so deep in my psyche. This is where I talk about it as like classical conditioning, right? Like, The stimulus of, you know, stimulus of watching my partner touch the woman's hand, my brain immediately classical conditioning, all the rom coms, he doesn't love you, she's more exciting, all of the years of women put against one another for competition, boom, boom, right there, right?
Wasn't even my free choice. Like that is deep in the unconscious.
Claire: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. It's huge. I love the work you're doing.
Nicole: Thank you. And see, and see what I find is really funny too, is now as I'm connecting with these people and they want to take me home to their mothers, then I'm like, oh shit, I am a divine whore.
Like that's where the, you know, I'm like, what are you going to tell your mom? Like, oh my God, if she's not a feminist, this might be complicated. You know? That's the societal conditioning too. It's like tough. Sure. So then I want to be quiet. I start to think about that. I connect with them and then I'm like, what if their mom listens to the podcast?
And I start to want to be, I can't, I can't do that, Claire.
Claire: Interesting to notice.
Nicole: Yes. Isn't it?
Claire: Yeah. Um, what about your family? Do they, are they aware of your,
Nicole: Yeah, so the fun, fun, complicated things of all that are that I, my family is Mormon. And so when I first came out as queer, I kind of like wrecked the whole thing in their paradigm already.
You know, like in just in terms of doing the bad thing in terms of doing the wrong thing and them having to sit with that, that I was like, cool, I guess I've already ripped this bandaid off just, you know, now I'm also not monogamous, right? Or exploring multiple people. And at that point, maybe particularly with Mormonism and its history of multiple polygamy, which is very different than what I do, but like, that was somehow more okay than queerness.
And then at that point, I was just like, God, I'm, I'm already out here, you know, and, and I think I do get the fun, um, getting the doctorate in clinical psychology and my, my path being about sexual trauma. And that's what brought me into the field and is why I started all of this work and then getting into a psychology course.
space of, oh, what does sexual trauma healing look like into pleasure has been my research and my world and, and, and by association, reading the ethical slut and all these things, right, which has taken me on this path. So I do have some level of like, this is my research mom, you know, which gives me some level of grounding in it that she's learned to get.
more comfortable with, but um, I think definitely like ripping off the band aid by being bad from queer kind of gave me the space to kind of say like, okay, well, fuck it. I'm about to go zero to a hundred, you know? Yeah.
Claire: Yeah. Well, that's great. I think just, you know, Being able to just express it is just like really deeply important, you know, yeah.
Nicole: Yeah, what about you? How has it been for you? I mean, I just, I want to hold space for the mother experience. I'm not a mom. I cannot imagine, given the Madonna and the horror complex, just like, how other people would look at you as a mom that does this stuff, like. It's unique.
Claire: Yeah. Well, I've definitely had the system push back on me big time.
I don't want to actually talk about what situation showed up, but, um, yeah, do you know what, what I realized is it just showed me I'm on the right track. Good. Love that for you. I didn't feel like that. In that moment, right, it took a little bit of time to go, ah, and this is what I need for my protection moving forwards to be able to really do this work.
Yeah. And when I released my book, you know, that is. It's gonna be brushing up against what we've been taught and up against, you know, societal conditioning. Um, so yeah, it was kind of like, I'm taking it as, is almost like a, um, a moment in time to just tell me what I need for the future. But, um, but in terms of like, you know, being a mom and speaking to that and, you know, my, I'm very open with my kids about the fact that I'm dating and often, you know, I'm dating multiple men.
You know, I have books around all about, you know, the ethical sluts and I have another one, which is, um, called what is monogamy, I think it's called.
And, you know, I've shown them that and, you know, I try and gently bring it into conversation and they know that I've played with women as well. Um, so I think the thing is this generation coming through are much more, you know, Open in terms of like sexuality and genders.
I remember when I first told them about, you know, my, my female experience, it was almost like they were just like, Yeah.
Nicole: And yeah, exactly. . And if you told your mom it was probably a very different experience, right? Well, actually it wasn't. Oh, good. I love that.
Claire: I tell one thing I love that is, um, my mom, I honestly, I have thrown so much at her in the last two and a half years,
And one thing I say I am so grateful for is I have a mom who. Just meets me with unconditional love. No judgment because she would never go and do half these things that I've done in my life. Yeah, right. Um, and even like before I got married, yeah, that's pretty wild and free. Sure. And all, you know, like got into all sorts of things.
And I know my mom has never experienced off, you know, not even half of what I've experienced. Yeah. But she always just meets me with unconditional love. And so I told her about it. You know, this woman that I'd fallen in love with and she was just like, doesn't change anything. You're still my daughter and I love you, you know, and my kids were very much the same.
It's like, mum, it doesn't change anything, you know? And I think when you start to realize. I hope I've helped them realize that love is love. It doesn't matter about what gender that person is. And, you know, I actually grew up thinking I was a hundred percent straight. So suddenly I was like, Oh, no.
Interesting. Didn't see that one coming and. You know, I, I recognize that I was carrying a lot of shame around it and I didn't speak to anyone about it for a long time. And then I recognize, Oh, there's shame. You know, I grew up in the seventies and eighties and in a very small town in the UK, I did not know anyone who was gay or lesbian.
There would have been. But no, no one had come out that I knew. Um, and I think in those days, you know, they were very much ostracized really. And yeah, so, you know, that was unconsciously probably sitting with me. So, and I think I had all of these crazy thoughts, right. Around, if I tell my female friends, are they going to think I fancy them?
Stuff was like playing out in my head. I was like, Oh, wow, this is like, whoa, the stories. Yeah, totally. I'm really open about it now. And I've had different, you know, experiences with the females as well. And that's been really fun. Yeah, totally different. Yes, absolutely. Totally different.
Nicole: Different sides of myself, yeah, come out in different dynamics.
Claire: Yeah. Makes sense. And I feel, yeah, I feel like actually, Like, really blessed to have had those experiences, you know.
Nicole: Absolutely. Expansive experiences. It's living. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's living for life. Totally. Yeah. Good. I'm, I'm so happy to hear your life force, like, you know, and the joy that is coming to you with this.
And I think that I'm so sorry to hear about the experiences with the systems. And also, every good feminist gets in trouble, right? Every good feminist of her era gets in trouble. And so we're doing it right when we're pushing the edge and getting in trouble. Again, Margaret Sanger being arrested like a hundred years ago for contraception, right?
Like, Us, all of us in our little experiences here are creating ripples to change the system collectively right now. And so, I hope you're getting in trouble. I hope I continue to get in trouble, right? Raar, you know, just keep going and changing it. Yeah, you are on the right track. Right, I want future generations to have the joy that we're feeling in our bodies of, of intimacy and connection and play and eros.
And like, those are divine experiences that I, I hope that we can be a part of through a conversation like this to shake the system, make people uncomfortable, think about this stuff. And I know that the future generations, just like we're picking up the torch from them, they'll pick up the torch and keep running in ways that we can't even imagine right now.
Claire: True.
Nicole: Yeah. Hmm. I want to hold a little bit of space too as we come towards the end of our time, I always like to take a deep breath with my guest,
and then I like to check in and see if there's anything else that maybe you wanted to share with the listener, otherwise I can guide us towards two closing questions.
Claire: No, I feel I'm ready for those questions actually. Okay. Thank you.
Nicole: Good. So then the first question I've been enjoying to ask is. If you could close your eyes and go back to a time earlier in your journey, maybe this is when you're saying, you know, I want a divorce.
Maybe this is at a play party, wherever you see yourself. I'm curious, what advice, what would you say to your younger self?
Claire: You know, probably one of my biggest learnings through this whole journey has been to really let go of almost like a time span on something, on a relationship and just enjoy the connection for however long that is, whether that's five days, five months, five years.
Whatever. Yeah. That's been really powerful to just let go of that. As much as I desire something regular and long term, it's like, but actually what's really deeply important is that connection presence right here, right now. Yeah. Hard to do, but so much joy when you're really there, right?
Nicole: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah.
And the last closing question that I ask every guest on the show is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Claire: I think it's about really owning all of those sexual desires. owning them, expressing them with someone you trust, and knowing that it's okay to have those thoughts.
There's nothing naughty, there's nothing filthy, there's nothing dirty about your mind. And sometimes we don't have to play them out, like we just need to actually acknowledge them as our thoughts and feelings and it stops people being themselves. So I just, I'm a massive advocate for just really voicing those desires and owning them.
Nicole: Yeah, there's endless ways that we can play creatively, right? Endless. So many different narratives, role plays, ah, you know, there's so much there when you get into it. Yes. And so being able to normalize that and play with that, I think. Yeah. You know, I do believe that conversations like this in the large run will be a part of what ends rape culture, right?
It's fueled by silence. It's fueled by shame. It's fueled by not talking about any of this stuff. And so every time that we kind of step up to the plate to talk about these dynamics and get more open discussion, I do think that is shaking the system to eventually dismantle that, that harm that is ongoing in the world.
Claire: Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Nicole: Yeah.
Claire: Yeah.
Nicole: Well, it has been so lovely to have you today, Claire. Thank you for joining us.
Claire: Thank you, Nicole. I love this conversation. Yes. Thank you so much.
Nicole: And I want to invite you, too, for all the listeners that have really enjoyed connecting with you, hearing about your story, your upcoming book, right?
Where can they find all of your stuff? Where do you want to plug?
Claire: So I am really, really vibing with Instagram right now. So the Wild Woman CEO is my Instagram handle. I do have a website, which is clairdore. com. But yeah, that's where they can find me.
Nicole: Well, yeah. Thank you for joining me today. There's a lot I shared even personally about myself and it takes, you know, a guest where I can look at and feel safe enough to, to look in that mirror.
Right. So I appreciate you for creating the space for me to talk about my personal pieces and for you to trust me as well to hold some of your lived experience. So thank you.
If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast. And head on over to modernanarchypodcast. com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.
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