Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole.
On today's episode, we have Dr. Broderick Sawyer. Welcome to Join us for a conversation all about applied liberation psychology. Together, we talk about integrating the woo woo into clinical psychology. Tuning into Plant Logic and the Compassion Avatar Technique. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.
I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world. Tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy. And I'm also the founder of The Pleasure Practice. Supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.
Dear listener, uh, what a special episode I have for you today. What a special, special episode. Uh, Dr. Broderick Sawyer's voice. It is so calm. It is so lovely. This is just like prime podcast content and I am so, so excited to share it with you. And gosh, dear listener, we talk a lot about the power of presence and the power of embodied.
And I know there are so many therapists and healers and social activists who listen to this podcast. I'm going to say hi, hello. Thank you for the important work that you are doing in the world and One of the most important things that we can do is be in our bodies. Ugh, dear listener, please take a deep breath with me.
I'm gonna take a deep breath in through the nose and exhale it out. Gosh, there's so much to do in our bodies, so much to do in the world, so much to do with the practice of being present. And, you know, Dr. Broderick and I talked about the ways in which As healers, you know, it's not always about the words that you say, right?
It's more about the presence that you can create for that person. And it got me thinking to, sure, my therapy work, but also the work that I do in this podcast space, right? Especially in these unscripted intros that I, uh, do for you and your listener. And I just hope that in these intros and the conversations that we're You can feel my presence, which is full of passion and optimism and just pure raw fire to study the erotic, and to study the liberation of our pleasure, and to study Relationships, and I hope you can feel that presence each week.
I hope you can feel the safe space that I am creating for you, for my guests, for myself, to explore some of life's most complex and nuanced topics. And I am truly, truly, truly just so grateful that you're here, dear listener. And that I get to share this creative work with you. All right. Dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources at modernanarchypodcast.
com linked in the show notes below. And I want to say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people. So thank you. If you want to join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, then you can head on over to patreon.
com slash modernanarchypodcast. And with that, dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love, and let's tune into today's episode. So then the first question I like to ask each guest is How would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Hmm. Hmm. Who am I?
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Well, there's the absolute, and then there's the relative.
On the absolute level, I'm you, I'm nature. On the relative level, clinical roles, uh, which I like to just be one at a time. Sure. Sometimes I'm a clinical psychologist, training in mindfulness, compassion. The CBT psychodynamic neuroscience attachment energy psychology once I realized that CBT was in essence just saying that it was the best in trying to poop with everything else after only existing for about 30 years, which is just what I call.
Colonizer arrogance, Western arrogance,
Nicole: right?
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Um, then I started to dip around and say, all right, well, what else is out there? And then that eventually led me to my buddhist teacher. So I've been an 8 year buddhist practitioner, former college athlete, about, you know, 604, you can't see it in the video or through your ears, or maybe you can from the New York City area.
But really brought arc Sawyer dot com is the place to go to see all those varied professional roles. Dr broad 123 on Instagram. And as far as activities. I speak, I train mental health professionals primarily, uh, to be in their bodies, uh, consultation, do a lot of teaching of meditation. That's where my energy psychology will come through.
Uh, do some, uh, a little bit of psychotherapy, small caseload. Uh, I really love the folks on the one end who I'm working with. Who are just asking those who and why sorts of questions. And then on the other hand, I do just a couple of groups for partial hospitalization with eating disorders and I teach them energy psychology.
It's the number one, um, Psychological disorder that can cause death. And for me, that's a time where Really punching the gas so to speak. It's warranted. They want it. They're asking for it. So it's a space where I can really use a lot of this You know, existential energy, psychology knowledge, just to really punch it for folks who are needing it badly.
And then I write conceptual papers to pour my philosophies nature's philosophies into really everything. And that's, um. And that's really the beauty of the really only thing that I teach, which is applied liberation psychology, or what I call a compassion based performance psychology. And in essence, it's plant logic.
It's tuning into mother nature's instincts, which is the one energy realization you look at. Anything, anywhere is just one energy body. You know, you hold something in your hand. You're relating to energy, right? That's just one block of energy. And we're all just swimming in that and energy can't be destroyed.
Nicole: Okay,
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: and it's just recycling and recycling and changing form through understanding our thoughts and our concepts and honoring our concepts and coming in and tuning into our energy. This realization is very natural.
And it's blocked by dissociation, which society causes, it's blocked by taking thoughts to be a stand in for reality, which is a Western problem, Western misunderstanding of reality.
So I just use my words to guide people into that realization, uh, or to get them sort of on the path to. Self realization because enlightenment isn't a binary sort of thing. Definitely not. And I teach, uh, two, it's really two things, energy, literacy and compassion and magnetism. Once you, because human beings, um, it's a hardware problem.
It's not a software problem. It's a hardware problem. So we, it's the age of information, so we think more information will give us a da, and even if it's the best information, even if it's super actually correct, if there's no practice of it, then it doesn't really matter, so I try to help people tune into energy, what energy nourishes me, what energy depletes me, and then folks, um, become more present, their amygdala, or their Fear part of their brain starts to shrink a little bit.
So those emotions aren't overwhelming our sense of reality aka projection
and then through compassionate magnetism. And we can we can do a I guess a brief exercise if there's time to really hack the insula because that's just a matter that if we can press that button, the ego, so to speak, the mind can be overwhelmed by compassion.
But I think, um. That's, that's something which is a little trickier, but, um, this is really all, all I really teach. So it's sort of an inner relationship anarchy. When you have overwhelming self love, you tune into mother nature's instincts and there aren't many things that are never wrong, but mother nature is actually never wrong.
So tuning into that in that inner voice, that's really, there's only one inner voice. And in that way, um, that's just the, um, The greatest thing I can really offer humanity, and that's just kind of what I've decided. And at a certain point, I recognize that belief is extremely primitive. I didn't want belief.
I want a conviction, want a conviction within, within myself and that took a lot of iterating, so to speak, and it's, and I'm still iterating different teachers or teachings or styles or, uh, playing with a meditation album. I released one for, uh, accessibility sake, trying to do another compassion based one.
Nicole: Cool.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Um, without triggering people too much. But, uh, but we'll, we'll see, but that's pretty much me. And then you'll hear me talk a lot about practice, uh, you see the athlete in me because hardware doesn't like change itself just by gaining more information. That's just software. The hardware is the really the main point.
Nicole: What a joy to have you on the podcast today. I'm really excited to talk about all of that. I, again, already feel the limitedness of our hour and a half forever. We'll go right. Um, some of the things you were saying, I definitely work from a feminist relational systemic existential narrative, you know, somatic.
Sort of framework. And particularly when I think about relationships, the, uh, feminist psychologists would say, you know, like good relationships give you five good things. And one of them being zest for life. And so that's something when you were just talking about following the energy and that space and that again, zest, that liveliness, it's something that, that I've been trying to do in my life of just noticing.
Which relationships give me that, that feeling. And of course, balancing that with the, uh, the energy high, that is a new relationship and the cocaine phase of that, like, I have to be able to like balance the, like, Ooh, you make me feel so good. But like, wow, maybe that's just the beginning. Right. So, but a lot of that energy has been what I've been following in terms of how I've gotten to this space of, you know, where is it resonating in my body?
And I'm just thinking about, you know, clinical psychology and everything that you just said feel like juxtapositions in some ways. I, I've been going through this training and everything is, yeah, evidence based practice, CBT, all this sort of stuff. And so it's really, uh, nice to have you in this space.
space as someone who's maybe gone through the same hazing that I've gone through to understand this world of, you know, energy being too woo woo to talk about. But I think that it's so deeply related to our bodies and we all feel it in our bodies.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not dummies. And the thing that I realized is the people that I serve and work with, they're certainly not dummies either.
And so I remember, this is very interesting, and this is where I sort of realized the juxtaposition. I was working with this patient, I believe it was on my postdoc, and I was still very much like, evidence based, blah, blah, blah, you know. I had my woo woo stuff, right, but I saw it as woo woo and unrelated.
Nicole: Right.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: So that integration really hadn't started. I'm sitting with this person, And I'm telling her all about what it is, what the problem is. And there's a, there's a blend of Western narcissism in here. There's a blend of mansplaining in here. There's a blend of all of the, all of the things, all of the stuff, me just doing.
And she goes, uh, and this is a, um, an actual quote, she goes, I don't give a fuck what you call it. Help me. And that's really when my heart began to come into the space, into the work. And that's when I started to see the words as separate from presence. And that's what in training a lot of mental health professionals.
This is exactly what I what I teach them is that we're trying to find the right words to communicate compassion rather than embodying the magnetism the energy the real energy that communicates that and you can feel that this is what vibes are right when you can actually Be in your body. It's almost like this old building that you're just turning on, uh, the air conditioner, the events, and then all these cobwebs start to come out,
you know, we thought we were talking a little bit about, um, coming back into the body, uh, circulating prana, circulating chi energy, you know, once you start to do that, then this quote unquote system gives itself sort of an oil change.
And. Then that energy begins to sort of radiate outward, the aura grows, and the only folks who can't feel this or call it woo woo are just energy illiterate, I call it, and that's because of pain, and you have to metabolize pain, and that refusal. Is to metabolize pain is friction and that is suffering that is suffering.
Is that resistance? And, um, it's a very, it's a very fascinating process and thing, but it's just been so consistent for me seeing human beings. Sitting with myself, being with myself, being with, you just, once you get out of the words, you, you see it, and it's very, very obvious, then it's just contorting the words to be the person who's using these words, or using, you know, whatever, whatever it may be.
Nicole: Right, right. And maybe even to ground it a little bit for, You know, myself and anyone else who's afraid of the woo is, it's just interesting because when you connect with someone, right, we know mirror neurons. We know that my body is picking up what you're putting down across from me. And then we also know that our, my voice, right, it is a vibration.
At the end of the day, quite literally in physics, right? Yes. And so my breath controls my voice. And so if I'm really tight up here and I'm like, you're going to feel that and then feel it in your body and be moved by that. Right. And so I think for me, the more that I've stepped into my embodiment, the more that I can feel.
Feel that from different people of whoa, okay, you are holding your breath and I can quite literally feel that. And so then being able to feel into their embodiment just based on how fast or, you know, how breathy they are.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: That's beautiful. And that's it. Once you can recognize your own humanity, and if you're really allowing that to happen, you're allowing that energy of safety, of love to manifest inside of yourself.
It's really relaxing into your body with whatever that is. And sometimes this for us is relaxing into the experience of sadness or the experience of fear, fear. First time I settled into fear with no filter, no sedatives, no nothing. You know, I was like, it's electric. You know, it's, uh,
Nicole: I'm a rock climber, but that's, uh,
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: That's that's love.
These these energy energies are natural. And when we start to allow those energies to really pull us to act or not, then we can see when folks are resisting their own what's inside of them, which is very, very Very interesting, and to, as mental health professionals, you know, to feel a, a therapist, you know, vibrating like that, or to, for them to pick up on the fear of a patient, and not try to counter that by relaxing themselves.
Right. I know. I'm afraid so I'm going to give you advice or challenge your thoughts or let's do a breathing exercise to get rid of that fear. That's actually helping you because that's a realistic fear that you have there.
Nicole: That was literally me yesterday, like just feeling so much of it and being like, okay, my job is to take the deep breath and then, you know, and then invite them to do it with me, you know, and like, just let go of the cognitive, but I'm already just thinking about, you know, like say.
We were teaching or educating this, which you do, but I'm trying to imagine it like it'd be so hot, you know, I remember in my group therapy class, just, uh, we were doing some sort of processing group as the class, which was fascinating to do a processing group with your, you know, with your, with your colleagues.
Um, but anyhow, one of them had disclosed that their therapist had said, well, where do you feel this in the body? And she was like, I don't know what she means. When she says that, I feel nothing in this body. What are you talking about? And I think that I, in my past life, you know, like way back, you know, years ago, would have said the same thing of, I don't know what you mean, feel in the body.
And so just thinking about even trying to teach this to some clinicians, like you'd be starting there at What do you mean in my body and and that breaks my heart just knowing how much of this is an embodied experience and when I'm sitting in a neuropsychology class will be talking about Oh cortisol cortisol cortisol what do you think cortisol does to the body my god we don't talk about anything of what to do with what it does to the body like we know it's there but like that's right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, more, more software.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah,
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: and it's sad. It's uh, it's so top heavy and I, and I feel. This is me being very dark. My convictions are very dark. It's not cynical if it's true, but. It's. When it comes to human beings, at least, I find, and a part of the reason why I went back into psychotherapy after doing a lot of speaking in 2020, I call it the I'm not racist tour, speaking tour 2020 to 2022, people don't really change.
Unless they are desperate to do so. And our field is so young, so unbelievably young, unbelievably young. And when you're doing, when you're doing the same thing that the first person thought of, right, and obviously Freud has had his issues and conditionings, right? But he said, we should, this is a random idea.
Let's do it one on one. And we're still doing that. In the exact same way, that's not, there's nothing wrong with that, that's just a sign of the youth, we're still doing this, like, yo, like that's, this is, this is gonna take some time to really refine and understand, and also see that there is a huge interaction effect.
And at least, you know, the folks who I like to work with, whether it's, um, you know, different patients who are desperate to change or helpers who are desperate to help, those are the ones that I can actually reason with and talk, say, hey, if you want to be a great therapist, if you want to serve everyone, because you're not in this field, you know, just to have a good time, obviously.
Then practicing and working with yourself to become embodied will actually, in my opinion, in my, um, conviction, allow us to dominate the neuro, uh, of the space, because if I'm relaxed, no matter what, you know, my patient is going to pick up on that. People around me are going to pick up on that. And that is, you know, Well, I mean, mi well, mirror neurons are woo woo in that way, you know?
'cause that's just the strength and the clarity and the naturalness of, of the aura, you know?
Nicole: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And how are you supposed to do trauma work if you're not there? And again, even a class on trauma is not required by the a PA for clinical psychology, which is mind boggling. Uh, weird. I know, right?
But like, how are you supposed to do trauma work when Mm-Hmm? You're not embodied. I just don't. Really understand how you could be sitting across from someone and not noticing. Oh, wow. Okay. I'm getting activated. I'm getting triggered. What do I do with myself as they're sharing these deep pieces? Like, I have to know when my gaze starts to narrow.
And I'm feeling that like kind of light faintiness. I need to know that. And can we pause take a moment? Right. And, and without that, I think both people can get hurt in that sort of scenario, but it's just, yeah, not really talked about at all. And I think even one of the biggest things in this for me was getting off of coffee.
My God, like, my God, I drank so much coffee and, you know, had was diagnosed with with Generalized Anxiety Disorder, holy shit, that drug was running wild, like, I had no idea. And so when I meet with clients, I almost, you know, like, what drugs are you on? And I'm talking coffee, like, what drugs? Not just your SSRIs, not just the illegal quote, you know, like, are you on coffee?
Because that drug is gonna produce, you know, real experience in the body. It's wild to me.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Yeah. What energy are you consuming and what is it doing to you?
Nicole: Right.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Well, in an all pervasive kind of sense, when we define what, what is quote unquote bad for you, like what's the, what's the quote? Um, is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
Nicole: Yeah, totally.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: And that is really, um, that's the essence of the misunderstanding and really the. The narcissism of the West in particular and to call things pseudoscience without a full, a full investigation into whatever it is is being said because we're only limited by the questions we can ask and the experiences of the question askers.
So, you know, black man. Less than 2 percent of psychologists, right? You're telling me that less than 2 percent of psychologists are asking questions and investigating research. And if I came right out and just didn't code switch at any point at any point in my writing. Or my interviews or whatever. I wouldn't even get my degree.
So it's this self fulfilling prophecy. And this whole, uh, thing is Chris Rock, who said, if it's all white, it's all right. You know, and that, and that's real. You can't get by unless you, unless you assimilate. And present that assimilation to the mass culture and, you know, if you are going to be a black man and be accepted, then you better be an athlete or a rapper.
You know, you're going to fit in, you know, with the, with the names that we give you in or a comedian or something that really fits in in that way. It's, uh. And it, man, it's, it's very interesting, and I'm sure there are experiences, uh, for women in the queer community as well, where if you embody something, it scares the shit out of the status quo, and then they sort of launch to lock you in a straitjacket.
For myself, that has a lot to do with, you know, With base and power and conviction, you see a black man like speaking with conviction that scares the shit
out of everybody. Sure, yeah. Um, also being 6'4 so you sort of learn these different strategies of how to control the transference, so to speak. If I smile and I laugh and I'm funny, then people leave me alone, right, and they, oh, ha ha ha.
But in that way, right, getting back to like the who am I. Okay. Right? Am I the actor? Am I underneath that? Who am I really? When I'm completely almost like a tree, trees are just nature's just exploding everywhere with its own energies, which is that's, that's how growth happens. And I think the growth of psychology, we're talking self realization, enlightenment, it's just a peak experience of what one exactly is.
And then navigating that. With the structures that are forcing us to really squeeze. So I think that's, uh, that takes a lot and for clinicians,
Nicole: yeah.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Right. Being in our bodies means sort of allowing that energy to move almost without speaking. And that's where I think sometimes the language isn't really that important.
Oh, I'm saying some shit today as far as presence.
Nicole: Sure.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: And we can learn as clinicians. To communicate that presence without saying anything, then the words become like tools, depending on who we're really speaking to, and that's at least how I've navigated, uh, my own need to really pour these, uh, non Western things.
into psychology by knowing the language and then altering the language cause if it's true, it's true. I don't need to, I think it was Morpheus who said, uh, someone was like, WELL YOU CAN'T, YOU CAN'T, LIKE PEOPLE AREN'T GONNA BELIEVE YOU! And he's like, Well, what I have to say does not necessitate them to believe it.
Nature is nature, if I can just find the right language to Lead people to it, you know, in that way is who doesn't wanna feel love, who doesn't wanna feel peace and relaxation For sure. You know?
Nicole: So yeah, I was just in an internship, uh, interview for my, um, internship year, the final year of the training, and they asked us for our favorite movie and I was like, ah.
The Matrix. It's cliché, but like, you know.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: That's very cliché.
Nicole: Well, yeah, because it's psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, so I was like, ah, but it's so true. And the, I just want to take a moment just to hold space for like you getting out of that system. Like, cheers to that. Jesus. Like, to get out to where you're at now and to be able, you know, like to have played the game and then.
Gone out is really powerful.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Yeah, and then to go back in and I think that's the that's the This is where The Buddhist practice of non attachment of allowing the ego to react and, you know, what I call being in my martyr phase, allowing the ego to react, right, and buck, so to speak, but to, Help it understand that, hey, this white guy at this conference who gave you a look, or, you know, did something microaggressive, or, hey, these people not understanding you, right, or whatever it is, right, that doesn't mean anything.
Right. That you are unlovable or stupid or off your purpose or whatever it really is. So that truth that I have come to just glimpse enough to hold on to consistently at all times that all nature is just one energy thing. It overwhelms. Anything that the ego has to say about feeling worthless or whatever it is.
And there's two particular points that I fixate on to really hold on to this, which is non distinction of energy, one energy body, and non clinging. Non clinging allows me to feel fear. It allows me to feel sadness and understand that, No piece of energy is stronger than awareness, than consciousness itself, and that actually, in such a beautiful way, allows me to All these things to be true and then use language and not get caught up in my ego about it.
And that led to, uh, the recent paper that I, that I wrote, which, uh, oh, man, in two, two years ago, I would have never wrote that shit by I despise it. I was all the journey.
Nicole: Oh, the journey.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Yeah, I called it. Um, Liberated, uh, cognitive behavioral therapy, liberating CBT from the cognitive distortions of white Western European culture.
And I wrote it in such a way, it's, it's very interesting when we name a problem to be The main symptom that we see my father was a firefighter. He was in fire marshals He's always talking about ignition source ignition source when we always look at the thing. That is not the source Then we're going to never put out the fire.
So in this paper what I tried to do um and being really frankly buck with the with the reviewers is Stray away from this notion of white supremacy, right? I'm saying bad things right now. These are these are bad words Uh
Nicole: Good words here.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: It's an anarchy. It's an anarchy. And to identify that, hey, this idea that our thoughts are correct and our style of living is correct, right, is a sign that we are excited about the way that we live and we really love this.
It only becomes a problem when you don't see the value. In other people's lifestyles aka, you know mind your own business, right? So this is where the narcissism which is really this is narcissism It's coercing folks to live your way. And if they don't then they're wrong or distorted or sick
Nicole: Yeah culture.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: That's a cultural style Which isn't even exactly white supremacist because people of color can act out this too. Anyone can act this way and it's a western cultural style of thinking. I think that style rather than, This is bad! It makes it very, It's a lot easier to just say, Oh, this is just like where I was born.
My cultural influence, this doesn't make me a racist or this doesn't make me something that makes me brings up shame, which, you know, I don't know if you've ever taught someone something based on shame, but it only goes so far. It got me really, it allows me to style at least. And we'll see if it changes to teach and engage.
While still acknowledge acknowledging people's humanity.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: No matter how you know opposed I am to certain identities that they that they bring into this space, you know, super conservative
White guy or something like that who hates my guts and you know, just just the person who's the like avatar of the person Like you've really been conditioned to like resist,
Nicole: right?
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: And you relate to that person's humanity. And this is the ultimate test of ego for me in my own practice. Cause nothing changes if I can't write these things and put these things in the water and as forms of landmark papers to really start to, you know, guide us in a way that helps us gather the East and the West, the man made and the natural.
We're all lost. And I think that's starting to happen. And I think Especially within the acceptance of psychedelic assisted therapy. I think that's a sign right there that we're, you know, Ram Dass got kicked out of Harvard, you know, for this shit. And now, you know, we're in a place where like Harvard's like, Oh, we're the, okay, we're getting there.
Nicole: Exactly, exactly. Slowly, but surely not fast enough.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Right. That's right. Nature's pretty slow. Nature's slow. That's true. That's true. That's true.
Nicole: Yeah, I was just thinking about, you know, when you were saying the first things that were coming to mind for me were, um, prolonged grief disorder, right? This idea that the clinician gets to decide when you're grieving too much, especially given the cultural context of the ways different societies grieve, right?
Like, who am I as this clinician to come in and be like, Bum bum. Problem. But you know, like, Hey, if, if it gets you services and you know, the insurance pays for me to sit with you for an hour, fuck it. I don't care. I'll put it down there. Right. And maybe that's better than if I can't use adjustment disorder, maybe that's better than depression.
I don't know, which has maybe more weight to it for someone if something's wrong with me. Right. So I don't know, there's ways around it. Right. But like still just even that idea of. Like this is you, you're the problem and we do that in so many ways as clinicians, right? Whether we say, oh, like that's normal or that makes sense or that doesn't like it's everything so deeply political and every word.
And I was just thinking about what you were saying in terms of, like, the ego and wanting to respond. I, you know, the amount of times I've sat in classes where has like a sex radical, just the things I've heard. I particularly remember one person who was, uh. A more prominent psychologist within the field of relationships and her whole paradigm, she had been talking about and it's like couples, couples, couples.
And I was like, well, could we expand this to more other types of relationships, right? Beyond couples. And her response was, well, maybe, but. I've never seen it actually work every time. It's always one person who wants it and the other person who doesn't. Now, this is a power dynamic. I'm sitting in a class with a clinical psychologist, one of the leaders of this area of relationships, saying that to a room of people and saying it never works.
And I sat there going, Wow, and I and I did respond back to her of saying, you know, actually that's not what I've seen in the community I've seen people who want both of it and it's my lived experience with that and so it kind of stopped the conversation But that was like a power differential moment and and moving through all these different moments in the field of psychology with sex Oh, it's so so complicated.
I've been told I'm a bad girl many at times and when I think of um Betty Dotson, she was running masturbation circles in the 90s with women where they would sit around and actually look at their vulvas in a mirror and have that collective group experience. We can even get into it about this.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Yeah,
Nicole: we can even get into the powers of group psychology compared to individual psychology.
Right. But like keeping us here for now. Right. That sort of circle of that empowerment. My God. If I said I wanted to do that, do you know who would look at me as a clinical? That girl is nuts, right? But the amount of healing that comes for people in that and so there have been so many times where i'm moving through this world of If I were to say something like that in a class I would get a reaction even when I was in my damn class and there was an example of a couple and I said, you know, being where I'm at at sauna with psychedelic work.
I was like, Oh, I'd love to have this couple try MDMA therapy and be able to connect and have the whole class went silent. I felt this energy in the room of just and my professor was like, well, Not till the research is there and it's like fuck the research was there in the 60s my friend. Oh, I'm sitting down and he's standing up right and so I just at that moment have to take that deep breath of like, okay I'm just gonna let it go right and or even on the smaller scale like my mom like You know, she's not college educated, you know, of course, I love her, but I tell her about my world of non monogamy.
And then she gets into this activated state and looks at me and says, you know, your relationships are so messed up that you need more than one. And I was just like, Oh, and I was just thinking, I was like, okay, in my head, I'm going. Well, you have more than one relationship, but like, you don't have sex with all of them, but like, I'm not going to start explaining the ABCs of this and I just have to let go and be like, you are on a different journey and I can, there are not enough words that I could express to even like pull you into this.
And so that, that act right there of making that self determination, self protection of my time and energy is limited and I can't, I can't go there.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: That's right. And you, and you embody certain convictions. That you are not changing and there is so much power in we talk about like nature right a pine tree being a pine tree it ain't making anything else but pine cones it is what it is and it's not gonna try to convince an oak to not be an oak right.
Like, that's, that's you. That's you, bro. Yeah. I'm glad that you can, I'm really glad, because I think so many people get into situations where there's a power dynamic, and then they begin to give up their pine tree ness.
Or openness and but that wouldn't work. You would limit your power as a helper as a healer if you don't completely go in your direction and put your roots down completely in your condition, but that should grow because there's a I'm, you know, former ballplay, right?
There's a scoreboard everywhere, anywhere. And the scoreboard here is. Are you helping your people? So at that point, like, I'm excited to see what you in the future, because you can see that differential and that's what happens. But silence is one of my favorite things. What, well, it feels like crap, but.
People will not relent on their opinions, especially if fear is there. And that's really in my view or my experience, at least it's, that's what that block is. It's just that ego is like, we're not going to admit that. Oh, well, you know, you know, maybe I'm wrong. It said no ever said nobody in the history of ever.
And like in that man, what, what a, what a shot to the. What a shot to the ego, but then also there's this lack of intellectual discourse, which would actually lead to a lot of interesting directions, whether, you know, people agree with you or not. You can deepen the experience of humanity, but, I don't know, I think there's also this very Ron Swanson esque Possibility in America where everyone can just mind their fucking business.
And if we could do that, I, I just start to. I feel like we'd all be a lot happier because we'd solve our own problems, deepen our own roots. Then that would lead to, uh, more of the, you know, Venn diagram relationships. You know, and we can share and then we can on the other side, share other things as well.
And, you know, there's, man, we're also such a young country and I feel like we're in our infancy and we don't really know to. My the freedom to you know, meddle in other people's ideologies and different things and
Nicole: right right
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: and not even discourse Oh that pisses me off about your professor. Just What research like that hasn't been supported do you know the research but if you said that then you know a bunch of trouble, you know F like just come on, right?
We're in grad school. Are we thinkers? Or not really.
Nicole: Oh, yeah. So then I really hit it when I was in psychopharmacology and my professor was saying that ketamine can lead people into psychosis. And then I asked my supervisor, what's the research on this? And he's like, no, there's research saying that doesn't happen.
And then I literally was just sitting in between two doctors going. Who do I listen to? Oh, no, it's just like just really hitting that. Like, Oh God, it's all, it's all biased. It's all perspective. What research are you reading? Who wrote it? You know, like, ah, it's just so much totally. Well, and then, and then I have fun conversations when you look at, um, the inner reader reliability for, uh, depression and generalized DSM five being as likely as chance.
And those are two of our most favorite like diagnoses and it's as likely as chance. So you're telling me all of the research that we built on this is on a variable that is as likely as chance? Yes. Oh my God. Like the whole, the all the cards crumble and I'm like, what do we know? You know, big time.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Big time in this, uh, oh man.
It does. And uh, there's this, yes. My teacher's teacher's teacher, haha, who's Tibetan, uh, who taught Pema Chodron, is telling this story about, almost like a grad, it should be a grad school sort of story, but the student is asking the teacher, how do I dissolve experience, right,
AKA, how do I avoid my emotions, you know what I'm saying?
Uh, these emotions are tough, how do I, you know, self lobotomize, how do I dissolve all this, right? And the teacher goes, You don't dissolve experience, you penetrate it, you penetrate, yes, and this, this is what's known as transmutation sublimation tantra, known in, um, in Buddhism. And I think this is a very interesting Freud does the same thing.
As uh, many people do when they hear tantra they think sex, you know, but really even like libido sex, you know We're we're talking about Energy energy and you know, bathe your cbt no energy, you know, so it's all oh, you know what I mean? So, you know, what do we do with this? When we allow ourselves to, I don't know, like, get really, really fucking real, when I allow myself to be completely sad, completely sad about the state of humanity, about the state of a patient, to be completely scared shitless, when I allow those energies to vibrate through me,
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: It becomes a superpower sadness quite literally it is is my superpower it rage wrath it activates me I think maybe being an athlete helped but when and uh using like basketball metaphors here yeah when you're down 20
Nicole: right
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: this is where I see humanity we're down 20 but it's only the second quarter it's it's early we sure have time right We're down 20, we're getting our asses kicked, the best thing to do when you're down 20 and you're getting ass kicked is just to try to locate the hoop and launch your body straight at it and try to dunk on someone.
That's what you do. How do you change the energy of the situation? You feel how shitty it feels to feel that situation. You know and even uh, well, this is maybe a bit controversial. Um, I think especially in the in the uh, brunette brown era of shame is bad shame is bad But a little bit of shame if you can really experience it directly it may activate you to say, okay What am I ashamed about and what am I going to take action?
How am I going to use that aggression towards myself and redirect it and impose my will? onto my space You know, whether that's going to bed earlier, listening to different content, which helps me going back and listening to the rest of the modern anarchy. Yeah, so I can, you know, get, get put on with different ideas and different things.
How can I interact with my energetic situation, right? But you can't really get that unless you penetrate your own energy, whether it be fear. You know, uh, fear, anxiety, sadness. We're just pathologizing energy that you can't use for energy. Now we're violating laws of thermodynamics. These aren't theories.
These are laws. You can't get away from that. Which is, uh, just so ironic to me, because even when white guys said it, uh, Einstein, Nikolaus Tesla. Sure. You know, it's all energy. We're still like, no, just the field of psychology just thinks that emotions and thoughts aren't energy, like, okay, like, it's right there.
Physics is right, right? In that way. That's, I think the future of psychology will, will not use diagnostic categories because you can't categorize. Energy, like, no, it's a, there are a couple of studies that came out too in the UK, it said, uh, it said that diagnostic categories are inconsistent and have very little to do with the actual treatment, you know, because when you just sit with someone and you allow them, when you just allow their humanity to be We want to make sure that you are all safe and hopefully have a great time at work and that you're all healthy.
And thanks to Dr Lather of meeting. com and to the By sitting and doing nothing with them and just being with whatever it is at that time Even if you're being with their quote unquote resistance to themselves, right? Yeah, sit with that and just all like the pine tree just it rises to to a peak and yeah Really that easy?
Yeah Yeah. Simple is complicated. Everybody thinks things are more complicated. They themselves are complicated. They don't know.
Nicole: Yeah.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: What's there.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. It's radical, right? When you think about the tabula rasa blank slate sort of energy that Freud started with, which is funny because when we think about clowns, right, that blank face is truly what terrifies us.
To be very clear. And so it's just so funny, like, relationally thinking about that. You're like, damn, Freud, you're off. Um, and so, like, when I stepped into feminist therapy, it was always this, uh, paradigm of you're supposed to be moved by the client, which opened me up into the space of, okay, I'm supposed to be moved, right?
So, When my client is crying, if it is moving me to allow that, which I remember talking about in my classes and people thought that was radical. And I think obviously it's a nuanced conversation of you don't want to be crying so much that your client is then caretaking for you, right? I'm, I'm trying to ground and be in my body with that too, but it's not this blank slate.
And. We all need that in our lives. Again, outside of the therapy room is to have someone who listens and my, I can hear my existential mentor in my head when we say, Oh, I'm just listening. No, you're listening. And the power of that listening, he was first a chaplain for many years before he came into clinical psychology.
And so I think had a very different perspective to what it means to just be there. It is again, just right now to be with someone. To be with. I hear you. I'm with you in this space. I don't have to fix it. I'm hearing you. I'm hearing your pain. I'm feeling your pain. Mmm. And the power of that resonance right there to know if we're thinking about existential isolation, just to be with someone in that, it's really powerful.
And I guess when I talk about things like this, too, I know there are a lot of therapists that follow the podcast, but there are a lot of people that aren't therapists. And just. I hope that, you know, in all of our relationships, what does it mean to be with someone in that state rather than having to, Oh, how can I help?
How can I do this? How can I do that? Right. The capitalism of we need to get out of this because prolonged grief doesn't work under the systems. When you got to go to work on Monday, let's go, go, go, go, go. No, I'm with you.
And the power of that, the intimacy of that.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: That's right. And the blocking of, uh, for a person who may be, um, Blocking their own energy.
Nicole: Yeah, right.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: You block your energy. It redirects right into into the space as What is an emotional contagion they call it right sitting across the sad person blocking it you feel that sadness if you're Allowing their vibration to penetrate you and through that this very interesting thing seems to happen when we allow a Vibration and are then moved by it that moving then emits You A, a vibration that is acceptance and love and,
Nicole: mm-Hmm.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: forgiveness and all of, you know, really any shit you can learn from sitting under a tree and then through that vibration, right? Mm-Hmm. , that's what, that's what has the power.
Nicole: Yeah.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: To dissolve energy, right. Dissolve, shame, dissolve that, which is that which is not true, you know? Mm-Hmm. and, uh. But for, for us, as, as any helper, if you are resisting your energy, You're projecting it on to your client through the air through physics.
You can't destroy your own energy You're projecting it onto onto your work onto to everybody. It's quite sad
Nicole: Mm hmm,
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: which which just moved me to work harder, which is the entire point here But the resonance and I think this is also where you know, this this will open up a lot of A whole good, good can of worms, a can of peaches.
Nicole: Yeah, excited.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Um, I think that's where a lot of folks really don't have the capacity to connect. And I think this is where monogamy actually comes from. You know, there's this idea that if I'm resonating with someone else, I'm cheating.
Nicole: Right. You
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: know, but it's emotional cheating.
Nicole: Right.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: What are you, fascinating.
Nicole: Yeah.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Yeah. And then when you say, I love my client.
Nicole: Right,
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: you know, they jump to sex. They jump to marriage. They totally, you know, cause a mythical, you know, right?
Nicole: That's how the spirituality gets kind of removed out of the picture. There's so many, you know practices that incorporate love love of strangers, right?
Let alone this person that yeah is pouring their life Before me and I'm sitting in intimacy, but yeah, dare I say, I love that person. That means blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. Which is, I hear how you're saying the connection to monogamy because it's the relationship escalator, the sort of assumptions that what love means can only be in that frame.
So right. Like it's just, it's mind boggling to me. Um, and yeah, just. Yeah, there's so much up in that. I'm, I'm thinking about capitalism and, you know, just like the property and the passing down of the control of the ownership and like how deep that is interrelating into our psyches. It's, uh, we talk about like internalized homophobia, internalized racism, all these other things, but like, there's so much more.
And how that affects love. I am like signaling again. I keep doing this of like shoveling of like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Um, that goes so much deeper, which I think always that makes me ask really deep questions about free will and the complexities of that one. Because I think just even pinning back to, um, my own journey when I grew up very Christian, I was condemning homosexuals.
All right, I was like, you know, it was just fascinating. Why was that such a hot topic for me? Hmm. I wonder right? I was out there going they're going to hell. This is not okay. This is not okay, right? And so when I look back on that, you know version of myself Like was I really free? Right. Knowing that inside, I was actually someone who had this capacity for love for multiple people, but was so indoctrinated within the systems that I was actively in conflict about it so much so that I projected it out onto other people, which I think that's been one of the biggest things too, is like when I'm upset about something, what is it activating within my, me and my value system?
Right. We're talking back to that world of letting people do their stuff. Well, it's so hard because when you're doing that. When you have two partners, it makes me feel frustrated about the fact that I only have one, and I've never thought about that sort of freedom, so you can't have the, you know, it's like, whoa, whoa, my friend, you know, so, I don't know, I do ask, as a liberation psychologist, right, I do ask deeper questions about what free will looks like in a paradigm when we're taught so many narratives.
That I think are actively harming us like an abusive relationship that we don't Stockholm syndrome.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Like it just yes. Yes. There are many ideas about this, but I'm making making this paradigm up on the spot. There are only two forms of. entrapment. The first we can escape, the second we cannot. So the first is what your conditioning, right?
Your cultural conditioning. When I say cultural, I don't, you know, I mean really everything. Whether you're a country or you're a family at a certain style or being right outside New York or being an athlete, right? So you have your, your cultural imprinting, which you are taking to be true. You're taking that to be solid and true and you don't have a choice.
You know, to not act out, you know, uh, homophobia and things like that, right? So that you can escape through attending each and every moment to the way the moment is hardware issue. So meditation, AKA the capacity to focus on the moment, no matter what your mind is saying. It's almost like a windy kite is flying around.
But the more that you hold your attention in the moment all the time, that's real meditation is all the time. It doesn't stop when you get up off the seat. When you focus all the time, you can see the difference between the moment and what your mind and emotions are saying, your lower brain, quote unquote.
Sure. So that, when you train that, You then become energy literate so energy tells you what's what you can actually experience your emotions just that practice alone So that's the first key. Mm hmm. Then the second key to that freedom on that first level is overwhelming the ego structure or the self resistance With, uh, nature's wisdom, which is really located within the insula and that's, um, overwhelming self love overwhelming.
So much of a show that it, it creates this, it creates this dynamic where the ego or the resistance is, is overwhelmed and overpowered by that sense of love. And that, uh, we don't really talk about. The more, um, you know, we kind of talk moon, solar, receptive, active energies, so to speak. I don't like to say masculine, feminine.
Nicole: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: But the more solar aspect of love is hotter and more overwhelming. And when we engage ourselves like that, we learn that, oh, nature created this one on purpose. Like this. And once you realize that you were born on purpose. Once you realize that it cools the I have to impose my cultural imprinting and establish myself, or I'm a piece of shit, you know, but once we cool that.
We're operating from really makes us as human, which is logic and love is logic. It is the logical. It's a lot. And any resistance to that is just stuck energy. So that's the first piece of self of free will where we can escape the second. We cannot. The second is nature creosol. I'll just use this one, this body, me, um, I, I try to not use I, but this one, this body was born in a super Northeast sort of space.
Okay, very much for folks who have seen Seinfeld, very much like, uh, George Costanza's parents. Very, uh, flippant, uh, mother's half Italian, uh, dad's a, uh, hardened black guy. Like, it just, it just is what it is.
Nicole: Fire, fire, blah, blah, blah. Yeah.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Uh, athlete. Mm hmm. Also growing up in a really what I call blue collar trauma, right?
Your parents are keeping a roof over your head, but just you're, you have to dissociate in so many different ways. So that means a lot of racing thoughts, a lot of anxiety, a lot of sadness. But once I see the projections on that first level and then embrace all of the energy, Now there is freedom to move with consciousness, but I can't be something that I'm not.
I can't, if I'm a pine tree and I'm trying to be an oak, okay, that's the first level. But if I'm a pine tree and that's what it is, it only really bear these kinds of pines, you know? And that's where I think that second layer is, is that there is no free will once you are what you are. Born to be, and that is actually, it's quite easy.
Once you are aware of what you are and you can plant yourself, especially in the in in America, especially in America We have I learned this through immigrants laughing in my face when I complained about about different things in America. They're like, okay You have mobility bro. Like you have the right to complain.
Yeah And you know, um, so once I really recognize what it is that I am, I am a tool, an instrument of mother nature herself and tuning in with her through my heart through overwhelming self love that allows. This one to be the embodiment as intended. So that's, that's my, at least the mechanics, quote unquote, of, of freewill.
Nicole: Sure.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: At least my convictions.
Nicole: Yeah. Today. Yeah.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Let's check in in a couple of years.
Nicole: See where we're at. Yeah. I'm, uh, I'm thinking too, just about. Wanting to validate the world of your, um, basketball being your metaphor, right? It's, uh, for me, it's climbing, right? It's these physical activities, these activities that stretch us and grow us in so many different ways.
And some people might call cheesy, but I call spiritual, right?
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: I mean, yeah. Yeah. It is. Yeah. And the world, the world is so It's so, um, it's very easy to like have thoughts and opinions and ideas, especially in this age of information, you know, it's very, very difficult to contextualize things. So metaphor, I find really helpful, especially metaphors within nature.
Nicole: Yeah, exactly. And there's a whole, There's a whole story to that game when you're down 20, right? There's a whole meaning making. There's a whole embodied experience of what it means to push through that, that parallels out to so many different areas of life. And yeah, for me, it's, it's looking at that wall that has the roof where I'm going to be climbing upside down going, I don't know if I can do that.
That looks really scary. And then I start to feel it in my chest and then. I go and I do it and I send it with no takes and I get to the top and I'm like, damn, I'm stronger than I thought. Right. And that, that journey is so much a metaphor for a lot of what I do and think about, you know, how my mind works.
And so when we're talking about free will, I do think about the, uh, discomfort of growth and what it means to step up to that wall that I'm looking at going, Oh my God, I can feel my chest tightening and having this, but I know that. Again, I'm not crying while going up the wall. Let's be very clear, right?
We're not pushing past our zone of tolerance, right? Of, of, of making me sob up the wall and panic and freak out. But there is a space of I am scared and I'm doing it anyways.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Yes.
Nicole: Yeah.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Yes. And this, this is interesting. You're not confusing pleasure for fulfillment.
Nicole: Yeah.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: It can be a part of it, and ultimately, growing will lead to fulfillment, contentment, peace.
And that, that really changed things for me in my own life as well, because there was a time where I was just like, pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. And sure, that can be, that can be a part of things. Yeah. But there is this slow grind. You know, of growing, especially in when we're serving people, it involves a level of real openness
Nicole: for sure.
Light in the dark, right? If you have a buffet table of all the finest foods and you gorge out, you get a stomach ache, right? Like, what does it mean to balance pleasure with pain, right? And and feel into that. I think that's the fullness of life and the softening of it all, right? Is when you're not in just one and you take the yes and.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Yes, and this is real. Oh man, sometimes I, I feel we confuse freedom for a lack of consequences and then get confused and don't want to accept that there's a consequence. And then in modern society, we can actually avoid a lot of consequences where we're located in society.
Nicole: Yeah. I mean, that reminds me of the existential frame, which sometimes I Want maybe a more positive frame to it all too.
And again, maybe a yes and frame But I think about the framing of you're condemned to freedom, right? You have to make the choice not making the choice is a choice and you're condemned to that freedom of choice making and I don't like the word condemned right because it seems like it's so sometimes often so negative like we're Isolated in our existential experience.
We're condemned, right? It's like You In the isolation. There's also so much to play with. I get to choose in this moment. What parts of you are what parts of myself you get to see? So wow, I get to play with that isolation or we're condemned to be free and also the capacities of what we do in that. So I want this.
Yes. And I think that's where I disagree with the framing of the matrix. It's like so dark once you get out, right? I want a world where it's like, It's, it's, it's light and, and we have to unpack the systems at the same time. You know what I mean?
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: I do. Well, well, this may, this may trigger everybody. Go for it.
I'll give you something that, that may help the darkness. So this is actually in the, uh, Baha'u'llah Gita, which is in, in my view, the most complete, a spiritual or energetic explanation. Uh, of, of reality, and for those that don't know, who maybe don't know the story, Arjuna is this warrior and he's about to fight everybody that is disagreeing with him, including like his family members and shit, and he's on the battlefield and he's crapping his pants.
He's like, Oh my God, I can't do this. And then God, quote unquote. Nature personified in Krishna comes down and basically this is like the black guy version of it. Hey Arjuna What the hell are you doing, bro? You're fucking embarrassing me man. Like what is this? You're losing your shit I'm putting you in this situation to act out your role and you're what what are you doing?
Yeah I'm gonna die all these different things and Krishna goes Silly ass human, you're not gonna die, and here's why. Energy can't be created, and it can't be destroyed. So in many, many, many ways These bodies, the, this life is just shifting and changing form. So as we come down into this particular form, we get a character, we get it, this embodiment, and we are not the embodiment.
We are the energy, which animates and the nature of Or the mechanics or the psychology of self realization is realizing that you are that energy. You are formless energy inhabiting a more dense energy body. And that's where you, it's play. It's a, it's a, It is a play and we're playing our, our parts on the great stage as it were, and at least for me, that's what, that's what made me not afraid of death, which is much more, much more connected to this character and much more interested in how to make the juice really worth the screen.
You know?
Nicole: Yeah. I try to practice the Buddhist practice of meditating on death every morning and feeling that finiteness of it. Every morning. It's coming for me. You know, like why run from what's coming from me and in that, can I soak up right? Yeah. In that, can I soak up what's here right now? And I think it's so fun to be in a world where.
what you just said is grounded in the best of our current understanding of science, right? This isn't even a mystical woo woo. We know energy cannot be created or destroyed. Those are the laws of thermodynamics. And we know that the atoms that make up our bodies are what get recycled into the earth and other ways.
So it's not even woo woo. It's just, it's just facts at this point, right? And it's in a question of how do you frame all of it, which I think, yeah, it takes me back to when I asked you to introduce yourself, even that. Framing of the absolute and the relative because I think sometimes in the spiritual space.
There's so much of this We are one we are one we are one we are one and I hear that And then i'm also but like you said, where's the relative of you grew up in your certain location and have your lived experience That is radically different than mine And so can we hold the yes and of the absolute and the relative of our lived experience?
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Real. Oh, man, holding those two. It's very interesting. I, uh, it's almost like, uh, this to be nihilistic and individualistic and, uh, everybody sucks and, uh, that. And then like love and light and everything is one. There is so much danger in either, in either, uh, approach to ignore your cultural imprinting and pretend that it doesn't exist.
Yeah. You know, whether I'm a man pretending, oh, everything is one. Well, if you're not going to own your masculine imprinting, your manly imprinting, you're going to like hurt women. Right. Do you want to hurt women? Right. Right. Or the opposite. It's just like, oh, it just hurts. Creates such fear when we think we're going to die and we're convinced of that and living in that it's just no one can really, I don't know, you ever see an actor who was acting on stage and they were just super scared and uncertain of their role like relaxed performers or perform very, very well.
Nicole: Yeah,
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: it's, uh, oh, man,
Nicole: did you watch the, I mean, I'm sure you've heard of the plane crash. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. With the, um, the, I think it was rugby players, the football and the Andes.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: I heard about this. Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. There's, um, the recent Netflix remake society of snow. And I, there was another remake that was a movie that was done on it in the past.
And I'm sure, you know, the story. Yeah. And I guess for a listener who doesn't, right, it's this, this plane crash of this team that was flying over the Andes that crashes there and then is left out in, um, the snowy caps of mountains for 70 days, right? And so in 70 days you run out of food, right? And so then they ended up eating their team members to survive, right?
This is the realities of food. Humanity, um, you know, what a ethical conundrum of, of an experience, right? But just thinking about nature and the wisdom of nature, right? Like nature is scary. Nature has the capacity to put us in that damn situation. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. , right? Like it's the yes. And to all of that being a part of our world.
Mm-Hmm, of we can have this love and lightness. And also, yeah, that, right, that right there and the lion that kills the gazelle. Right. I mean, it's, it's just such a yes. And to the experience and it's not all love and light, you know,
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: nature is very violent. Our situation is very, very violent. It's, uh, especially in the Western world.
I'm just, I'm so fascinated. So fascinating. You know, some, some spiritual teachers said he's talking to Westerners and maybe like the fifties or something. And he's like, you all wanting the world to bend to your will is like a tiger sitting in the jungle saying, don't these humans just come into my lair and come and sit right in front of me.
This is bullshit. You know, it's, it's, it's a harsh real reality. I think a lot of it comes down with, uh, it comes down to, uh. Experiencing that fear and that harshness and then, uh, and then deciding what we're going to do with it.
I had to like institute a note for myself, at least a no complaining policy.
And I found for myself that. If I'm complaining, there's either something that I can do that I'm not doing or something I need to let go and I'm going to share, which is really a tricky thing to do, especially when there's so much pain or fear or confusion and even allowing myself to be confused and allowing that process.
Oh, my God. Right. .
Nicole: Ow.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Yes. I don't know . Oh. Oh, okay. That was an easy bandaid to rip off. Yeah, no, don't worry about it. Yeah, .
Nicole: Yeah, but sitting in that, oh, you know, oh, oh, Uhhuh comes through the body.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Yeah, it's um. And there are different, um, energies, at least with, I'll go through all of them with, uh, Buddha, Buddhism in particular, and they talk about the energy of ignorance.
And when ignorance is transmuted, it becomes all pervasive space and possibility. So the not knowing actually, when we acknowledge it and honor it, we don't like, Stumble around in the dark when we don't know try to pretend. We don't know. It's the opposite side of things We just allow that process and then reality sort of comes to us at its own pace Really teaching us and that's where paying attention will Really, uh, I think at least do the work for us, but not at our own pace.
Sure. That's a very interesting juxtaposition to this world. Yeah. Tell everything right now.
Nicole: What do you think that actually looks like, though? I think embodiment in felt sense rather than, you know. Cognitive, but I'm just kind of curious of trying to actually get in that space of presence, what that actually looks like.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Yeah. So what it looks like, to trip you out, it feels like this, right? It feels like this, that which is being said, right? Is only what can be put into words.
Nicole: That's the wisdom right there. And then if I ask again, I feel like I'd heard metaphors where it's like, uh, how long will it take for me to be enlightened?
Right. And you ask once and then you ask twice. He's like now 10 years. Ask what, what does it mean? A hundred years before you're enlightened, right? Like the simplicity of your answer right there being the whole answer in and of itself.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Yes, that's it. We're, we're right. We're right here. And really the essence is.
Being comfortable enough to allow the full sensation of the body, right? And there's, there's a lot of, you know, yogic science, there's different things. The essence is to not like pinch the, the pipe shut, aka the cerebral spinal cord. But then there is a mental holding. We're clinging. Yeah. So there's knots in the root Right.
Not allowing ourselves there, there's a knot in the heart.
Nicole: Mm-Hmm.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: not allowing ourselves to feel, and then there's a knot in the mind.
Nicole: Yeah.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Which doesn't allow us to just stop and just sit there. And there're there's a lot of awkwardness that folks don't wanna sit with that block. Yeah. And just sort of sit there and be with it.
Nicole: Mm-Hmm. ,
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: you know? Right. It's, it's here.
Nicole: Right, and you're a liberation psychologist, so you know when I say it's the systems, right? We, we in our modern day era are some sort of Buddha relative in terms of the way that he hid enlightenment from being someone whose family had a ton of money that he was able to save.
And like, here we are having this podcast on a Wednesday morning, you know, having the space and time to talk about this while other people are working in a system that's actively grinding you so hard, right? Like, how are you even supposed to get to the space of feeling when you're being hit, hit, hit, hit, hit, hit, hit, right?
So being able to direct that arrow towards the systems and it's just making me think about the power of psychedelics in our modern time to kind of really shake up that snow globe and bring people into deeper embodiment as such a tool for this. I'm, I was just thinking about to what you had said earlier about being moved with and after having this, um, medicine experience where I had gone first.
And someone was holding me and then we flipped, right? So I had maybe more opening after mine of just tenderness and that sort of, you know, we have that neuroplasticity going on, just that more sensitivity to the world after a psychedelic experience. And it was really interesting. I was holding her hand when she was going through hers.
And our goal was to meditate on if we could feel one another without words, of course, but feeling one another. And I was just looking over at her and she was her lip was quivering and she was getting sad and I was trying to feel in, you know, what does it mean to meditate on her experience? What does it mean to meditate?
And my mind was completely blank as I was watching her. I couldn't connect to anything. And then. A tear dropped down my eyes and another tear and it was a really radical experience just to not be thinking, feeling anything, but to be crying as I was trying to meditate with her and feel with her. And I don't know, I, I do think in a world of our systems, I'll be curious and know it's not the answer.
And I've talked about this again on the podcast again and again and again and how it's not the answer because the answer is community. But in a world of the power of psychedelics to open us up to more feeling and sensation, I'm really interested to see how it helps us.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: That's right. It, uh, it smooths out thermodynamics and many folks, the system of the body, and this is what, uh, what yoga intends to do.
Is bring about energetic union through the body. Mm-Hmm. the body is very much a tuning fork, right?
Nicole: Oh yeah.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Uhhuh, this, uh, the body is the, uh, is the fire, or excuse me, the, the piece of wood meditation is the, is the stick and the ohm is the. Is the sharpening and when with any activity that a lot helps us tune into awareness of energy, sometimes psychedelics is like the jet fuel of that.
And sometimes for folks, it's just learning what energy am I consuming? At any position in society that is dampening my awareness of what I am. Nature can only get on your side if you tune into nature and what that may mean. And I think that is really what I at least try to help folks understand regardless of their position in society.
You can be aware of energy. You can metabolize pain. Nothing is stronger. Then your awareness, no experience, and that energy is really, really powerful. Big follower of Malcolm X as well, and I think he's the perfect example of that. He just opened up to his energy and then like, boom, power. That, that is something that many folks.
They learn by accident. Um, I think it's the old, uh, some, some buddhists or some teachers said, um, uh, enlightenment is an accident and the practice of awareness makes us accident prone.
And that's, it's really where I, I feel very, very frankly hopeful. I think maybe this is a, maybe this is a, maybe this is a switch up area, you know, everyone's like, this is, it's all, oh, you know.
Once I am nature, if human beings cease to exist, I will still be here. And that is the ultimate letting go process, which also activates us to being exactly what we are at all times without dampening performance. If someone is a high performer and they embody that, then okay, they're not, they're not, there's no coming, there's no going.
Nicole: Right. Yes, which gives me peace and tranquility and that I love that letting go and there's a lot of work for us to do in this space, you know, you're a psychologist, psychologist and training over here to be and when I think about my clients who are working with the activation in their body and that energy and The first time that they go to their general practitioner for support for a checkup and they ask about their mental health and they share that, the general practitioner goes, here's Prozac, here, take this.
And again, I'm not completely against all medications as powerful tools of nature to help us. And as someone who's been on an SSRI and that journey of getting off of them of what that was like, what that was like.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Likewise. Yeah. Yeah.
Nicole: Then you maybe understand that journey of every time afterwards. Am I going to fall apart?
Do I need that drug? Oh my God. Right. So my heart goes out to all of my clients and people that go through that journey. But part of that again, liberation psychology is the power dynamics of when they step into the room and the Doctor says here and then the doctors over here might say, Hey, there's research showing that meditation is as effective as SRS rise, right?
Even exercising the body can be so effective for that. But just our society's power dynamics of what is healing. I mean, And again, the way SSRIs work is by dampening the experience of your stimulus. So that way you can process more, right? Again, helpful too for some, but the reality is it's dampening your experience rather than kind of what we were speaking about earlier of how do I feel more?
How do I actually have more energy in my life, right? And maybe it needs to be sharp,
right?
Because maybe my fire and that fury, that response to that professor is actually You know, like, I don't want to jump in that
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: it is, it, it, it really is. And I, um, I think there are great examples of this in, um, in fantasy and, um, uh, whether we're talking, uh, Star Wars, recent Star Wars with Ray, very, very, this is all about, Oh my God.
It's all about transmutation and fearing energy. And what happens when we stop fearing what will happen with our shadow self and we actually, uh, metabolize it and then direct it with consciousness in, in many ways. Uh, well, I don't know, I think game of thrones goes a little too far before they get to the revenge porn towards the end, but same sort of dynamic.
What happens. When Jon Snow blocks his energy, his sense of wrath, right, because he's not supposed to, and what happens with Daenerys is getting overwhelmed by an experience, right? It's, it's all, it's very human, right? Like all of these examples of humanity, I find, uh, very clear when, just like you were talking about the, uh, the rugby team as well.
Right. Right. Really metabolize and let the moment tell us. What to do regardless of how primal quote unquote the experience really is
Nicole: mm hmm Well, then take this can of peaches that could be another podcast right of kink and shadow and playing right and again Just like psychedelics. There's a world of healing and psychedelics in a world of spiritual spiritual bypass and, and, you know, and then kink, there's a world of healing and play with a shadow and a world of complex chaotic relationship to that too, right?
The yes. And to all of it. Cause that's also really there as well. That's really good. Yeah. You know, like just like substances, right? Chaotic relationship to substance, chaotic relationship to kink, right? It's all possible. Healing is there on both sides, you know, um, But that's a 100 percent what I think about of like playing with the shadow sides and consensual dynamics so that we can dismantle rape culture at the end of the day, because that being a restriction of this energy that we all have, we have that snow up in the Andes and where do we get to play with that energy and all of us, right?
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: This is real. Where do we get to play with it? And where do we get to heal through it? Create a relationship with it. Right. I said it to my Oh, man, I'll be wallowing up in there, but I said to my, uh, eating disorder, uh, group in partial hospitalization. I, we're talking about shadow work and I talked about wrath in my own experience.
And once I locate your confusion or ignorance, I unleash wrath upon it, you know, and this, this is, it's power. And when we create a real relationship with power in any sense and powerlessness, we can then really navigate the range of human experiences. And really allow moments to happen. You can't be, you can't be, if you're resisting any part of this hardware, these bodies.
And that creates that friction in the machine. Yeah. Blocking of the flow.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely i'm holding myself back knowing that if i throw more cans out we'll keep talking for hours
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: well you could you know just for just for just for kicks yeah yeah.
Nicole: Which is beautiful right the resonance that i feel with some people in this space and i'm sure i've i've had listeners comment of a feeling that at times where i really like jive with some people and don't and like vibrations all the things we've talked about so it's been such a joy to.
To bounce off of you, um, and co collaborate to make something so special today. And I do have two questions I want to ask you as well. Yeah. My first question is, if you were to take a moment and pin back to an earlier version of yourself and call that into mind, I'm curious what you would want to say to him and if you couldn't locate just a little bit of who that person is.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: There was a time where I was going through a really dark breakup, and I remember a moment where I was sitting on the floor, really deep in it and resisting the experience in a lot of ways, really Bewildered and not understanding and I would tell him to allow to allow the reason being when when you allow is going by everything we've talked about when you allow it just speeds up your your awareness and your ability to metabolize energy and I like when we don't do that, we can cause a lot of suffering to ourselves.
Whether it's struggling with substance abuse in my 20s, uh, or, you know, not clearing out different, uh, pieces of self image and resisting energy, and then you end up attracting other folks with, uh, intimacy, stuckness.
Nicole: Yeah.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: So, it would be allow.
Nicole: Yeah, it reminds me of the metaphor of, um, we use it often psychedelic work to just prep for some, the pain of what might come up in that space, right?
The jet fuel of what that might take someone to, of when you have a splinter. It actually hurts to pull it out. So we kind of like push it back in, push it back in. Ah, I don't, mm-Hmm. , push, push it, push it back in, you know, versus the, okay, we're actually gonna, you know?
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Mm-Hmm. . That's a good, that's a great metaphor.
Exactly. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Yep. Mm-Hmm.
Nicole: So I hear you. Mm-Hmm. I hear you. And embracing that pain of pulling out the splinter.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: That's right. That's right. It can only heal when we do that.
Nicole: Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. And. My final question, usually before I do that, I create some space for the guest if they want to say anything else to the listener.
So maybe it would be a great time if you want to take us through a meditation and what you are thinking about there. I'd love to explore.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Yes, let's do it. So what this is, is a hack. so to speak. So we're hacking the brain. It's really built off of very advanced Buddhist techniques. So once someone moves through the path of self clarity, which is just attention, mindfulness, awareness of our, of our own conditioning, then we move into helping and being like, Oh my God, there's so much suffering.
How do we help others? Then we need through that process, we start to realize, Oh my God. I haven't saved your complex. I actually,
Nicole: yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Classic, especially for mental health professionals. Oh my God.
Nicole: Yeah,
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: this is totally about my own ego,
Nicole: right?
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: There is a, there's a level of residue. Of ego, especially when we start to pierce through and have those heart opening experiences, very sober when the mind starts to settle into the body and it just quiets, you start to feel that love.
That's where a lot of folks get caught in the bliss stage or the love and light stage and never move further. And I'm talking about the process of self realization, tuning into Mother Nature. And it's like, I think it's actually, so we have to train the mind, see itself as. Actually enlightened when we don't train the mind.
It's sort of this like not me. I can't it's impossible. It's an idea. It's a mental barrier. And once we have enough sensitivity, we no longer risk narcissism. And I think people who really love they like, Oh, they want to like, be humble, you know, but that actually makes it very hard to become powerful as pine trees or whatever kind of tree.
You are so this process is a visualization technique, which I've secularized it. I call it the compassion avatar technique.
And the 1st goal is the visualization, which we'll do. And the 2nd goal is to Visualize it once a week and then continuously reference it in our self talk. So what this starts to do is it starts to hold the mind to a certain standard.
If there's any way to actually train the and change the personality structure. So I'm not talking neuroplasticity. I'm talking like the actual mind. It's this process. It's almost a my teacher's teacher's teacher. Would call it a giving ourselves a transplant. Mm hmm giving our heart a transplant. Yeah So this process is to bring about the energy and then we can reinforce that that energy So let's uh, yeah, let's go into the practice here.
So first thing we're gonna do Let's close the eyes and here the body position most ideal, okay, if we want to be snobs about it. We can sit straight up, shoulders back, and what this does is it allows the spinal cord the freedom. This is the channel of cerebral spinal fluid or the carrier of chi, so to speak, just like a tree planting down roots, this central channel.
Carries out nerve endings into the body and the more we relax this central channel The more our nerves can extend into the body Okay, so sitting straight up and down or if it's more comfortable you can lay down That's okay, too. And all we're gonna do once we have our position is begin to take very deep And full in breaths and very deep full out breaths.
And all we're trying to do is move the breath in and out. Almost like inflating balloons. And then deflating them all the way. And what this is doing is it's turning down the volume of cortisol, stress hormone. So this is the first cheat code, so to speak, a relaxation, just breathing all the way in, all the way out.
And for a bit of extra relaxation, you can begin to relax the body on the out breath. It's very hard for any machine to circulate energy if there's any squeezing. So as you're breathing out, relax the shoulders, the neck, the jaw,
and each out breath, just notice where there's holding. So on one level, it may be the shoulders and then you'll notice a few breaths later that you're holding the lower abdomen, which can be a bit of a sneaky place where we really don't think about right below that belly button. See if we can relax that a little bit.
Any squeezing there. Little by little, relax.
And as far as the neuroscience of this, this is top down relaxation. We are using the front of our brain to downwardly, from the top, relax the squeezing and holding of the body.
Now at this point, you can let the breath resume a natural rhythm. So no more deep breaths. And I want you to bring to mind a person or a deity, a spiritual deity, a pet, this person can be alive, not. It could be someone who you met in a checkout line at a store, but someone who is completely compassionate, someone who loves you unconditionally, just the most loving person or being or pet that you can think of.
If you're having a really hard time, you can use me. So once you have this being in mind, I want you to imagine sitting across from this being. The more detail, the better. I want you to imagine what it looks like when this being is in front of you. is loving you.
It's really imagine their face, their body language, their presence. The more detailed the better. Is it a smile? Are you holding their hand? Are you hugging them? What does this experience
of being loved conjure up in your energy field? Really see if you can allow that energy to rise In this moment,
notice where in the body you are sensing and feeling this.
You can even bring your hand to heart center to really engage
this very powerful energy. Really breathe in, allow this,
really feel its capacity to overflow you.
And then in this moment, I want you to bring to mind something you don't like about yourself. This doesn't have to be anything new. Too dark, too dramatic, anything like that. Play with this at your comfort level. Something that you judge yourself for. This could be a personality characteristic. This could be a mistake that you made.
Some sense of lack. Or even fear.
I want you to imagine what this being would say or do to comfort you in this experience. This feeling of lack, judgment, self rejection. Really, it is vivid as you would like. If they say something to you, would they hold your hand, rub your back? Give you a hug. I want you to really allow them to love you
and love this thing you are rejecting.
Love this thing that you are not allowing light to shine on. Really open here. Open. Allow that love. Allow yourself
to experience this care.
Really breathe in the energy. Allow this light to really fill you up.
Noticing any emotions. Any thoughts, any sensations,
allowing that to really flow into and through your system.
You're just really bathing in it for a bit.
Remembering to re visualize this being saying compassionate things. Imagining them holding you, being with you, with a loving gaze, loving words. And lastly,
I want you to, at your comfort level, offer your own words of kindness, of love, to yourself, and see if you can borrow some of the words, some of the love that you are being shown by this being. This
could be words, could be a self hug. Sometimes I'll caress my face,
really try to allow you to love yourself just in this moment, really try to breathe in your own self affection,
noticing any energy shifts, any sensation,
really taking a few slower breaths here.
Grounding into our bodies, grounding into this experience,
and very slowly beginning to maybe move the feet a little bit,
flexing the calves,
feeling your hands, and then when we're ready, we can start to move forward. Open the eyes back to the space
Nicole: so beautiful
very powerful.
I feel a little high, which is nice Right, right, right.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Yeah, the love drug
Nicole: Yeah,
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: it's very interesting the insula it perspective takes when you take the perspective of someone who loves you on to Yourself. It's a hack it then allows You Real embodied self love,
but this sort of borrowing compassion from another who is just at least to ourselves more powerful in their capacity to love us.
Nicole: Right, right.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: You know, we need that. That's um, The guru model and many other, other cultures, but that naturally always, always doesn't work. There can be resistance. There can be non secular issues, you know, so the beauty of this, for some folks, they'll choose to use their, their pet or a loved one or a.
Parent, grandparent, whoever, one guy used Malcolm X,
um, and then, you know, I'm out in Kentucky. A lot of people just use Jesus and like, that's that, and that works for them, right? Using Jesus without Christianity, which can be a powerful experience, experience for some of you and folks who, We have resistance to that structure, but know that hold on a second.
Jesus was a hippie, bro. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure he didn't hate on gay people. I'm pretty
Nicole: sure.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Yeah, so creating that self relationship through visualization to engage energy.
Nicole: Powerful.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: And then. The energy does the work.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. It's really beautiful to sit with that and the embodied nature of it really connecting to that felt sense.
And yeah, definitely for me, I was just thinking as I was going through it, just this, uh, Oh, what a pain point that that loving person. Isn't my family like, oh, oh, oh, right. Which is great that we have pets and other people to expand out to, but just thinking about, you know, everything we know about relationships and your sense of self that when you've had those experiences with the people that are supposed to potentially be that in your life.
Oof.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Yes. Oof. Yes. Yes. It, uh, you know, it's very painful and very interesting. We, and for myself, I, I really identify with that, with that notion and how I didn't really learn myself to experience love until I started to meditate on deities. And that's how I really, Came into contact with the real speed of that vibration.
I almost said purity, but that's not it. It's just it's faster It's a less dense faster vibration and When the body is safe Exposing my my hacks here We slow down the body all the way from top down and then we relax the body and then we engage the mind You know, but a vibratory sort of state That functions to dissolve that it's very hard to want people in our lives who are just naturally in a space of, you know, denser vibrations to be in that higher, faster sort of space.
It's very, it's always very interesting how quickly this particular method just pops us right, right into that state or space. The real challenge is, can you vibrate like that when you're around your parents anyway? Right. Yeah. Can you, see this is the next stage of the practice, is seeing and treating everyone as the person or deity of your choosing.
Right. You know, Ram Dass used this as well. He's, sure. He did not like his students. His homework from his guru. Be nice to that hardcore Republican who you hate. Right. But you have to put him on the altar next to his guru. Right. Exactly.
Nicole: Right. Well, because that person is also my past self and my family.
And then, yeah. And so then it just, it does remind me of the yoga teacher training when we would do the meditations of loving kindness, where you start with yourself. And then someone that you have negative energy towards and trying to actually sit there of what does it mean to extend love towards that person and then the whole world and sitting in that sort of vibration and meditation and the power of that and I believe in the ripples.
I believe in the ripples of this conversation and the ripples of your meditation and how that will ripple out to more love, maybe not maybe, but certainly beyond our generation.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Oh, yeah, it will, because it's just true, you know, it's, uh, it will, it will. And, um, very interesting, I think, especially for, for helpers, um, and for anyone listening who's wanting to engage that.
That sense, those who they serve, um, sometimes all meditate on suffering beings straight up.
Nicole: Sure.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Straight up completely, especially with, um, with clients who may be struggling or different things. And, um, and it's, it's a powerful, it's a powerful experience to directly experience that pain of another, that wish.
I think it's Padma Chodron, a teacher's teacher, who said to meditate on the desire. For the alleviation of suffering, not the actual, the desire, the only desire worth having.
Nicole: Sure. You've left us with so many good things to reflect on and, and listen back to again and again. So I'm really, really thankful for you today.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: I'm thankful for you and all of your work. Seriously. Cool. Yeah. Thank you for your work. And I'm really excited to see where you go in in your work.
Nicole: Me too, man. I don't know what's going to happen. I'm following the winds of, you know, all of it. So it's going to take me places. So I appreciate the learning that I've gotten from you.
And when I'll go back to edit this in a couple of months, I will sit and simmer in it again. And yeah, it's, it's a good life. So very, very thankful. If it feels good to you, I can guide us towards our closing question. Let's do it. So the one question that I ask everyone on the podcast is. What is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Wanting to feel powerful. Wanting to be powerful.
When we reject that, that desire for power, then it controls us.
Nicole: Right.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: And I think that is the most dangerous thing. For anyone to do is reject that instinct. It doesn't allow us to build a society in an authentic sort of space, and it also has the most capacity to hurt people ourselves.
It disempowers us,
Nicole: right?
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Or controls from behind the scenes. I don't want power. I don't want power. Okay, that's gonna resisting that is going to manifest that and
Nicole: right. Exactly.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: I'll leave it to you to figure out how that manifests in relationships.
Nicole: Oh, yeah.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: And wanting, wanting power.
Nicole: For sure. For sure. I mean, I see a practice of so many cans of peaches, right?
Again, kink, power, consensual awareness of that, right? And even just in my experience. Exploration of non monogamy to let go of attachment in an attached way in terms of attached Relational theory like I'm very connected to these people. This is not a oh, you know, whatever we fucking we go away No, like I love these people But how can I let go of attachment and my desire for power over dynamics?
Right? In terms of their self governance to move through the world and do I trust them enough to stay with me and or leave when it feels like that's what they need to do. And that letting go of attachment is whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So yes, I'm simmering in that one every single day. So the joy,
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: yeah.
Oh man, that's tricky.
Nicole: Yep. Tune back in.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: The suffer is to cling, but to Uh, to experience pain is to love.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Absolutely.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Absolutely. That's beautiful. Yeah.
Nicole: It was such a joy to have you today. Thank you for joining us.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Likewise. Likewise. This was awesome. for having, having this podcast in the first place.
Of course. It's a blast.
Nicole: Yes. Where do you want to plug for people who want to connect with you, your teachings and all of your offerings today?
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Where to plug? Uh, where to plug? Where to plug? Well, RoderickSawyer. com is the easiest sort of catch all space, information, contacts, whether it's speaking consultation, uh, in depth therapist training, mental health service sort of training on, uh, how to really embody liberation psychology.
You had a taste today, but there's a whole. Process of decolonization that we go through in the first even like couple hours of a training and then Going into the practical parts in the last six hours of a particular, uh training. Sure Um, so there's there's really a lot a lot more of the rabbit hole But to connect broderickshleyer.
com and you can connect with me on instagram. Dr. Broad 123 Uh, and then you can get access to all my stuff, whether it's meditation albums, um, uh, live online retreats, which I'm just starting with trying to make something low cost, uh, really easy to get into contact with me, get more experience with meditation and random teachings.
But yeah, that's where to find me. LinkedIn too. I'm cool with LinkedIn.
Yeah, it's becoming an interesting, uh, matrix. I'm trying to turn it into a matrix, not matrix.
Nicole: I hear you.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: Like Neo, you know what I mean? All right. I can do here.
Nicole: Totally, totally. Uh, well, it was such a joy to have you today. And so thank you for joining me.
Dr. Broderick Sawyer: I appreciate you.
for having me.
Nicole: If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast and head on over to modernanarchypodcast. com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
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