Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole. On today's episode, we have Monica. Join us for another relationship anarchy research interview.
Together we talk about the life goal of fluidity, the power of sexual liberation, and the process of compassionate deconstruction. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.
My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice, Supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear listener, oh gosh, I love all of these relationship anarchy episodes.
Every time I dive in I feel so seen and so understood and that is something that I deeply cherish, right? Each one of these episodes is unique and different and a portal into the practice of relationship anarchy and I'm so honored that All of you relationship anarchists from around the world have been submitting your answers to these questions and trusting me to hold space for your story, trusting me to create this content together, and, dear listener, If you have been thinking about responding to the call, about responding to the relationship anarchy questions, now is your time.
I want to hear from you, I want to explore the practice of relationship anarchy with you, and I'll be looking forward to hearing your response in my inbox very soon. And gosh, uh, I cry in this episode. Yeah, towards the end, Monica was just really seeing me and seeing a lot of what I've been going through with academia and having to navigate the power structure that that is, and Gosh, I just felt so seen about something that was so, so tender.
You know, this podcast has been such a act to really put myself out there, and when she started really like seeing me and all that that has been for the last couple of years, I mean, gosh, I just, yeah, I started crying and, um, I really hope that this space can be a vulnerable space for All of the guests on the show for myself and for you, dear listener, you know, to really share our humanness and to share these emotions and I just, I hope you know, gosh, I hope you feel every week that I'm with you.
I hope you feel how passionate about this I am. I hope you feel how deeply dedicated I am to studying the erotic, to studying relationships, to studying our pleasure and. I'm just really, really grateful to be here with you. Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can head on over to modernanarchypodcast. com, linked in the show notes below. And I want to say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible for all people. So, thank you. If you want to join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and personal experiences, Exploration, then you can head on over to Patreon. com slash Modern Anarchy Podcast. And I also want to say a big shout out to one of our newest Patreon members, Alex. Thank you for joining the community, thank you for supporting the show, truly it is Patreon supporters like you that are keeping this show running and keeping it accessible for all people, so thank you.
And with that, please know that I am sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode. So the first question I like to ask each guest on the show is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Monica: Ooh, uh, it is the first question you ask on every episode, and I have to say that about two weeks ago, I was like, I don't know how I'm going to do this, but I'm gonna, I, I think I do know.
Um, because I think as a relationship anarchist, we, we have to think so much about how we show up in spaces. And what that has meant for me is having to choose the labels that I use, because we don't have a choice. We have to use labels. Even though we hate them and, and it pigeonholes us into something that people assume from us, we have to use labels.
So the labels that I choose and the titles that I choose for myself are, well, first human. I'm very human. Yeah.
Nicole: Great place to start.
Monica: I will, when I, when I introduce myself, uh, to, to my students, my labels are, I am a solo polyamorous, queer, Bisexual, relationship anarchist. I, uh, I have, uh, diagnosed disabilities that include anxiety and depression and post traumatic stress disorder.
Uh, I've experienced psychological injuries and gone through treatment. I talk openly about mental health. Um, advocacy for equity is, is paramount, uh, in my life because, uh, because my children showed up in spaces, uh, and felt safe, really, really young, to come out as first lesbians, uh, and then non binary, and they all have trans, uh, friends, and they started showing up and advocating, and I was sitting there, this really highly educated, privileged white woman in a hierarchical institution, in a position of authority, and I was safe.
And I couldn't, I couldn't handle my children showing up with it when I wasn't. They were putting themselves at risk in ways I wasn't. And so I started showing up that way. What that has meant for me from a relationship anarchy perspective, which is it informs my whole, my whole being is that I choose very deliberately to show up, uh, in, in spaces.
Um, from a position of everything being us against the problem, no matter if it's in my teaching space, or my, my parenting space, or, or my, my polycule, my family, every single approach is never fighting a person. A person is not a problem. It is, is working together towards those things. I would say that I'm a human who grew up As Emily Nagoski's, uh, human giver, I, I absolutely, if you've, if you've read Burnout, um, which, if you haven't, stop everything you're doing, like, just do this podcast and go, let me do this interview and do it now.
Um, but I was raised absolutely 100 percent as that human giver. Um, and, uh, I think human givers naturally fall into caregiving roles. And so, um, but I'm also, um, Uh, academic. And so I threw that human giver part of me into trying to be good enough through education. And so I, I ended up accomplishing an enormous number of like really cool things because of that.
Nicole: Yeah.
Monica: Without ever realizing that part of that was just the same role I was playing of trying to show up for other people. And unpacking that, um, now means that I really understand that I am a caregiver. But I'm not a caregiver because I have to be. I'm a caregiver because I choose to give that love to the people who, uh, who deserve it.
And what, uh, my, my girlfriend, her name's Katie, what Katie and I call it is aggressively loving.
We aggressively love the people in our life that we we've chosen to care for. And since I have such huge caregiving roles in my life, that has been a really active protective choice for me because that's how I want to love people.
But it's also what I was taught I had to do. And so choosing to show up for the right people has been a huge part of that. And I am a very, uh, very broken and healing work in progress.
Nicole: Aren't we all?
Monica: Yes, and, and it's so frustrating that every time you think that you, uh, you've, you've, you've got over that hump, there's just always another thing.
And so I'm, I'm constantly. Saying to people, like, they'll say, can I talk to you about this? 'cause I put myself up out in spaces to say, talk to me about anything. I'll, if I don't know the answer, I'll guide you to information. Like that's, I will transfer you over.
Nicole: Mm-Hmm, .
Monica: Um, and, uh, and frequently I say, you know, I'll happily tell you everything, but I guarantee you that, uh, you'll learn from my mistakes.
And there's still an unlimited number more to make.
Nicole: Lots of joy to have you on the podcast today. You get to talk about relationship anarchy and to co collaborate and work on this research together. So thank you for being here. Well, thank you. The first question, right? What is relationship anarchy? Mm hmm.
Monica: Uh, I love this question because for me, relationship anarchy has never had a definition that, you know, in my childhood, we would have looked up in an encyclopedia. But, uh, if even if you Google it, there's, there's Opinions, and I think that's, that's a case with many non normative practices, is that I, I found, I always found this hard when I started with polyamory.
I found it hard when I found about relationship anarchy, that every philosophy that you live by, no matter what, uh, what it is, that even if it steps a little bit away from the norm, there's always going to be, uh, somebody else gatekeeping that. And I had a very hard time in early poly. Thinking, why did I replace this monogamous rule of society with a new poly rule?
Like, why, why, why is there another rule set? Why can't I choose?
Why can't I choose this thing that works for me and this other person? And it often hit for me in relationship anarchy with hierarchical relationship structures. Uh, just the idea, the idea that I could. Take one human I love and another human I love and say, your feelings are more important, didn't work for me.
It just, it didn't work for me. I wanted to be able to respond to them in, in the way they needed and I could show up for them in the moment. And so as I got more confident in my non monogamy and dating and, and relating to others in healthier ways, uh, relationship anarchy for me became choice. That's what it became.
It became, at the very basis, it's, we all want to connect with people. Relationship anarchy is just choosing how we do that. Yeah. I think really, like, it's choosing how we do that, and there's no script. There's no script. The script is, I talk to you and you tell me what you need. You ask me what I need, and then we work together to find the solution that's best for us.
And one good relationship decision at a time meant that I realized that if you approach absolutely every problem in life with let's examine what the problem is from our perspectives and, and try to find a solution together, you're always winning. You're always winning. And there, it's very much linked in with an abundance mindset rather than a scarcity mindset that That you can.
You can find those things. You can, uh, one of my partners, he always calls it, uh, computer programmers, uh, zero sum game. It's a zero sum game and in game theory all the time when we're talking about relationships, but it's very much the idea that you don't have to lose for me to get what, what I want. In fact, I actually lose if you lose too, and so I guess that's, for me, relationship anarchy is, is showing up and choosing, choosing how you relate to people in your life, and it's as simple as possible.
There's no gatekeeping with it, and that's the, that's the hard part for me is the gatekeeping. Beautiful, uh, Facebook relationship anarchy group. I'm, I'm, I imagine that you're part of it. The discussions they have are fantastic, but there are, um, there are a certain number of people who, who just get on there and go, this isn't relationship anarchy and you're doing it wrong.
And I'm like, how can you, you, you can't, you can't tell people they're doing anarchy wrong. Yeah,
Nicole: yeah, yeah, yeah. The only part where I do come in and I might say you might be doing it wrong is if you don't have an understanding of community and then you're switching towards libertarianism and then I'm like, hey, hey, hey, this is, this is, Yeah, and like,
Monica: we can talk about how everything's wrong with libertarianism, oh my goodness.
Nicole: Yeah, so that's, that's the only part of it that I'm like, come, come, let's hang out, but you have to have community understanding in your practice. Or I might get upset.
Monica: I have to side quest you on this because you're going to find it really funny I think. And that is the libertarianism and so part of relationship anarchy for me is showing up for people and recognizing, like accepting them for who they are, right?
Like I want to meet you where you're at. And I dated this wonderful man and like for quite a long time and, and you know, he is One of those individuals who is just a wonderful human who has had a lot of, a lot of struggles in his life, um, and, uh, has substance, uh, abuse issues, but, uh, was just really consistent, reliable for me.
And we had the best sex. And, um, yeah, of course. And, but, so part of the reason that we kept going back, I kept going back to him, like initially we dated for a while. And I'm like, no, this is not for me. And I. Very much kept him at a, you know, let's meet every couple of weeks and, you know, the not, you're not going to meet the kids or my parents or anything like that.
And every single time, almost every single time we had a date, that was a political arguments were what started. I think our sex was so good because he was angry at me. Mr, the anarchist and the libertarian.
And so, uh, and, and so, you know, he would, he would, uh, he would start complaining about politics and taxes and all those things.
And I would always end up back at, yeah. But if you share your resources, everybody is better, and if you bring up that bottom line, that doesn't change the peop the, the top, and all of those, and, and eventually he would, uh, he would just drag me to the bedroom and we'd be done.
But yeah, and, um, exactly, and I think within a, within a relationship lens, it is really, really important to make sure that when people say they are relationship anarchists, They aren't on that libertarian front because there's a selfishness that causes harm when people present that way.
Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. So that's probably my one container. I'm like, you have to have the understanding of community. Otherwise you're practicing something else. But I think often one gatekeeping pieces, I think, is even the practice of sexual exclusivity, um, sexual fidelity. Some people will say, you can't be monogamous and relationship anarchist.
And I say, Says who? How are you throwing more, you know, you know, people issues?
Monica: Wait, how can an asexual person, how can an asexual person be a relationship anarchist?
Nicole: Yep, yep,
Monica: you can pin that back to them. Like, you're, you're excluding people, you can't, you can't exclude people from that group. It's not, it doesn't work that way.
And, uh, yeah, and I think, what you said, like, Like how I just said, what do you think about asexuals? That's just the point, isn't it? Is that, yeah, we've expanded the container to hold more people. But if you're not recognizing that there's still people that you are, you're pushing out of that group, then you are, you're causing harm by, by, by doing gatekeeping, by excluding people.
You're like, inclusion means recognizing that your needs and the paradigms you're applying to your life aren't going to be the same for everybody.
Nicole: Right, right. And I'm not practicing monogamy, so I cannot be a spokesperson for it, but I, I wonder if we'd also benefit from getting to other labels. Like, yeah, I'm practice, practicing sexual fidelity, right?
To kind of like get out of the label of monogamy because it has so much baggage with it. And particularly most people don't. practice monogamy, right? The actual act of one person for a whole lifetime. So like how, would it be more beneficial to say like, Oh, I practice sexual fidelity, right? With one person and, and I'm a relationship anarchist.
I think that would maybe move us towards a different sort of, you know, uh, but I'm not a spokesperson for monogamy, so I can't speak to that. And that label means something to a lot of people too.
Monica: Right. So, and I think it's important to let the people, so the, when the label is important. To the person, I think there's there's 2 reasons.
It's because because they're grounded in fear and often doing what society has told them and and they're holding on to that because, like, we all have done in our lives. We'll hold on to that real that that identity. Because if we're not that, then what are we what other choices in our lives are wrong?
Like, that's. That's what's scary for us and we know that. And then there's the other side. Those are the people who are her monogamous who have really deeply thought about what they need and want for themselves and where, where they want to be. And I have my first girlfriend. Um, I came out as, uh, I, I finally, Had my first interactions with women just, uh, 39, just before my 39th birthday and, um, magic.
I'm so sad for the, the first 39 years that I didn't say it out loud. I didn't say all that. And you know what? I'm making up for lost time, Nicole. And I also, like, I, I also have to say, like, I, I also feel like I, uh, I, I won the, the lottery because my girlfriend is, is the single most amazing human on the planet.
There's, there's no question, but. Uh, when I, when I came into dating women, uh, the first woman I dated, she, she very much was a relationship anarchist without knowing what that label was. She and her husband had been, uh, had been non monogamous. You know what? Non fidelitous. I don't know. I hate the identification of not something.
Oh, yeah, me too.
Nicole: Could you imagine if I was like, I'm not straight. Like, instead of being queer, it's just like, oh, I'm not straight. Like, we need a label that's not the non of the norm.
Monica: Yeah, should I, yeah, exactly. I'm not straight. Yeah, it's, well, it's just, it's, it's, it's normalizing othering. Right. Right. So, but, uh, as they went through their life, they, uh, right from the, the moment they met, they were non monogamous.
They, uh, they went through, they had three children together. They actually went through infant loss at full term, like big neurodivergences. sees they're, they're both in, um, high, um, stress jobs and, uh, throughout their marriage and her, the, the young years and childbearing, he had a ongoing sub, submissive that he saw every Friday, no matter what, unless they were out of the country.
Um, and he, that was his routine. And she Um, would go through periods where she would feel like she could engage with others and primarily chose women, but it was never a, it was never a, uh, one penis policy or anything. It was very much her own choice and when I connected with her, uh, her youngest son had just entered kindergarten and, uh, her husband had actually, uh, ended his relationship with his long term submissive.
And, um, was starting to date and they had, uh, she, she fully said, I have not dated for another relationship in five years. And, and this was why I, I've not been sexually fidelitous in that time. And what I really want is a, as a girlfriend. And, and as she explained it, she explained. All of the different ways that they had.
So they had gone through monogamous periods. They'd gone through long, long periods of asexual marriage. They'd gone through periods of major group play and swing and parties as often as they can, and that like, and, and everything in between. And they had kink dynamics with, with other people in every, cause she was a switch, so she had every type of dynamic with different people.
And that, to me, she, their, their family structure and the way she and her husband, uh, interacted with each other was the embodiment of, of the philosophies behind relationship anarchy before they even knew that term existed. Yeah, the fluidity. Wow. Oh, the fluidity and that fluidity is, uh, with the people in my, in my world that I love is, is, is to me as a life goal.
Um, because what that means is you're continuously showing up for a person you love and have committed to, but you're honouring, you're honouring their desire to change and grow how they choose. And you probably saw me smirk, so one of the things that I say to Katie often, and it started in one of those, like, hysterical giggling moments after sex, and she said something silly.
I think she rolled over and laid a joint and said something silly and said, and I said, I love you so much. Just never change. And then I was like, unless you want to, in which case I'll fully support you in every choice you make. And, and that, that's kind of our relationship, like our ongoing joke. But it's, it's true.
Like, that's, that's exactly how we want to show up for each other and with the people we love. And I just, I just wish there was more time to do it.
Nicole: But yeah, yeah. Cause the only inevitability is change, right? For better or for worse, you know, like that beautiful human will change the next day cause they have another day of existence and have moved through the world.
And so hopefully that's a beautiful thing that we can move with. Right. You can't step in the same river twice, that same sort of philosophy. But I think that. Relationships of all kinds, first off, would benefit from that understanding of change being inevitable and what does it mean to continue to check in with the, like, live plant that is your relationship.
It is changing. It is growing. It is not. Fixed and then particularly relationships that explore eroticism because it changes over the years. It changes depending on the circumstance. It changes depending on the relationships around you. And so, oh my God, again and again, what you hear in the office is like, we have mixed libidos.
I'm not feeling it right now, or I want it. And the other one, right? Like if people could just have a little bit more space to say, okay, this is going to fluctuate. And move and change over time. There would be so much less suffering and more pleasure at the same time, but it takes a lot of deconstruction to be able to get to that level of connection where your relationship is actually like the security is the relationship itself.
Not the fact that you're fucking each other, which is like most people's secure base, right? The fact is like, no, we're actually in relationship with one another. If we don't have sex for years, that's okay. If we do. Great. If we don't, great. Right. That level of security in actual relationship. Oh, yeah.
Monica: Oh, and, and, you know, like I, that, what a, what a goal, but everything you're saying, um, about sex, everything you're saying about sex and eroticism is so important.
And, um, and, and, and echoes my, my experience. Like I had, uh, I have four children and, uh, three of them were conceived with, uh, only probably one or two actual. Sex, uh, sex inter sex interactions, I don't know. Um, but, uh, I had a nearly sexless marriage where, uh, where it was, um, you know, trying to conceive.
Like, sex was a job for me. It was, I have unpacked all of that and polyamory and, uh, interacting with people. I, I think it's really funny. And funny in a, in a sad way that I went through all of those years in my marriage thinking I was broken, maybe I was asexual, maybe I made promises and didn't like, maybe I'm the failure because I made a commitment to this life together and I can't provide for this need and this falls into that human giver.
Uh, where I immediately got into a, a dynamic in my marriage that was similar to, to the one, you know, where my dad, uh, where I was serving my dad as a kid in the same way. And, uh, what that meant was that my whole days were, were spent. Meeting other people's needs, but feeling obligated to do so. And, and when you, uh, are in a dynamic like that, I know now is that I wasn't emotionally safe because I was meeting other people's needs, but I was continuously having mine unmet and choosing not to meet my own needs, actively choosing to sacrifice of my needs for him and for our family.
And because he wasn't showing up in the same way I was. This meant that I wasn't emotionally safe. And, of course, where did that come out? That came out in the bedroom. That came out in intimacy. Because we could be close and functioning with our clothes on and having fun in society. But when it was just the two of us together, uh, I just, I, that was protection.
That was protection. And I know all that now, but then it was just. I'm broken. I, I am wrong. It was a lot of it. And there's so much shame associated with it. And then as I started dating, um, my, my 1st to, uh, the 1st 2 guys I dated were these wonderful. Well. One of them, in retrospect, not so wonderful, but wonderful, um, men, married men, who's, I don't, this is small communities, their wives happen to be best friends.
And I ended up dating both of them. And it was this really, it could have been really terrible. And it eventually did become terrible.
Nicole: It was all consensual, like open,
Monica: but it was all consensual. Every single person, like my husband at the time was actually dating one of the guy's wives. Like it was a I was like, Oh, everybody can get along.
And then we're like, no, everybody can't get along because people are assholes and have their baggage but you know early Polly mistakes. But I ended up dating the two men for quite a long time. And their commitment to my pleasure. Um, was something life changing and the biggest thing, the biggest, the biggest thing was their orgasm, um, because, uh, in my relationship, in my marriage, his orgasm was, was the goal.
His orgasm, without his orgasm, he, I hadn't filled his needs.
And so, uh, then I had these two guys who just really wanted to have a great time and it was only about pleasure and we would have sex. Sex for hours and hours and hours, but they wouldn't come.
Nicole: Yeah.
Monica: And so I would feel devastated, even though we had such a amazing, amazing, amazing time together.
And it was like I, every single night I was with these men, it was like, this is the best sex I've ever had. This is the best sex I've ever had. And it was getting better and better. And I was like, it's not that I didn't like sex, or I was asexual. I was having sex with the wrong person. Right. And then. They wouldn't come and I would be deep in shame and I would feel like I, they gave me so much, but I didn't show up for them.
And these wonderful humans, uh, because they're men who had had had this experience with other women, because this is so universal. We're like, no, Monica, I need you to understand. I want to come back and be with you again. It's about the connection.
Nicole: Yeah.
Monica: If I want an orgasm, and one of them just looked at me and was like, if I want an orgasm, I can come in a minute and a half in the shower.
That's not what I'm here for. And I was like, Oh, right. Like, yeah. And so reframing those things has been really important and still unpacking. I'll unpack those forever, but um, reframing all of that allowed for, for Those questions that were, well, what else do I want to try?
Nicole: Oh, yeah.
Monica: And, uh, what do I like and what do I not like, and things that I had rejected outright before or had tried and been like, hmm, nope, not for me, became things that I could try again because I had tried them before in unsafe spaces.
Nicole: Sure.
Monica: And now they were safe spaces. And so that, and that conversation about, um, about sexual pleasure. Is, uh, is one of the, I think, one of the most important conversations. I'm going to link this back to my kids. One of the most important, important conversations I have with my children and anybody. So I'm 47 years old.
So all of us, uh, Gen Xers, we grew up with a ton of body shame, uh, and a ton of a ton of really, uh, really awful things. Um, and I, I was, I certainly wasn't, uh, protected from that and, uh, actually up until about two years, uh, well, up until about a year ago, I was a hundred pounds heavier than I am. So there's a whole lot of, um, things that we can unpack around major weight loss and growing up as a bigger person and how it, how size inclusive spaces just didn't exist and how throughout my life I, I covered up, I, I.
I didn't show my full, my full being. And then my child gave me the opportunity to make a better choice. And, uh, Maren, my eldest, uh, who is 14 and non binary and active, the, the one that, the, the kid that helped me figure out who I, how I wanted to show up in spaces about equity was about two and a half years old and laid on my, uh, laid on my belly.
And it was like, mommy, your belly's squishy and it's a perfect pillow. And I immediately had that flood of shame and like, I'm, I'm gross. I'm not lovable. I'm not all those things. But my kid was telling me that they were finding comfort and love and appreciation in my body because it was warm and it was soft and it was inviting.
And so my response in that moment was Yeah, you're right. It's really comfortable. It's a perfect place to snuggle you, isn't it? And then they lay down on my, on my stomach and snuggled in and went to bed. And I remember in the next, in the following days, having these thoughts that was, my child will never hear me say that something, my children are never going to hear me say anything bad about my body.
And then thinking that's not enough. I have to say all the positive things about my body, and that meant I had to find things that I meant, because I don't lie to my children. And so it started with, yeah, my body's amazing. Do you know what it did? It grew each one of you.
Nicole: Right.
Monica: And, And then I pushed you out of my body and look at like my body made a whole human and you see what a cool human you are and those that's how it started and I think like I don't have to like the fact that I I'm 100 pounds overweight or I don't have to like you know the way I have three double three chins or etc etc I don't have to like the fact that my arm thing I don't have to like those things but I can love The way my body functions and the way my body allows me to show up in spaces.
And so I, I would include conversations about how glad I am that I have a brain that can think about science and then I can apply these things or that I could learn this skills I needed. Um, and it's, it's very much imposter syndrome. It's how I remember showing up the first time I TA'd a class and being like, they don't know what I, that I don't know what I'm doing.
And it was very much the same kind of approach. They didn't know that. They didn't know that I, I wasn't. I wasn't sure I was doing this right. But, You say one nice thing about yourself, and then you say another, and you say another, and you say another. There's no room for the negative things. And you start, you start very, very slowly.
And this is a process of like, my, my eldest just turned 14. So we're talking, we're talking 12 years. You get to the point where. You start believing those things because you've silenced that inner voice that's telling you all these things that are wrong. Yeah, and then for me that allows, those kind of decisions then allow me to reframe more things and, and continue doing it.
But all, all of those things come back to, to that sexual, that sexual piece, which is understanding. Now our bodies that I loved my body when it was big. It's changed so much. I love it now. And I'm showing up for my kids in those ways. And what that means is my, my, my preteens who have body image challenges, because of course they do can come to me and talk to me about it and say, I feel these things.
And we reframe the conversation, contextualizing why people think. A body has to has to be angular and skinny to be worthy and and what the good things are. And so I hope that that what that means, um, is that they know they will, um. And I think it's really important for people to get to know their bodies and how they function and appreciate the pleasure that they can get from them when they're older.
And, and we talk over and over and over about how it's their job to get to know their bodies and, and now they're, they're not sexual beings now, but, but they're, they have to get to know their body so that they can tell other people what they love, what they like, and they don't like when they're older.
And, and I think those are, those are such important conversations and because not telling kids. What they might encounter means that when they encounter those things, they're in danger.
Nicole: Yeah, I think that this is a part of the conversation that really needs to be had of, uh, the anarchy of sex. Like, what does it mean to examine the power structures that are impacting our sexual life?
Play, right? And a big one of them being, yeah, body image, lack of understanding, right? Children begin masturbating at the ages between two and six years old, and that's normal. Where is our age appropriate education for that, right? Like all of the power structures impact that starting at two years old, let alone all the way up into our adulthood.
And so, yeah, I think about the, you know, I do work with psychedelics. I think about the set and setting of. Sex, right? So when you are in that relationship where you don't feel safe emotionally, where you're not being seen, where your pleasure isn't being met, of course, the psychedelic isn't going to feel good.
The sentence setting is off, right? And specifically, that's also why I really hate it. I'm a big advocate for diversity of experience personally, and I think you can attest to this too, is that, you know, having multiple partners that I explore my erotic connection with has taught me a lot about myself, and where my pleasure lies, I learned through diversity of experience.
Every other area of our life. I feel like society is normalized that you should have multiple people get different perspectives. And I'm just here to say, I do that with sex and it changed my life. Right. And so, uh, I think that's giving yourself permission to do that. Yes, absolutely. That's a liberation.
It is. Yeah. And so I want to make sure I ask you too, the second question, how do you practice relationship anarchy? And if you'd like, you can continue to talk about it, about sex specifically. Let's do that.
Monica: Well, I kind of want to link it to sort of, yeah, I think, I think where I'm going and where I think the conversation is, is, is about my kids.
And I think it's probably kids and sex and, and, and just my philosophy behind all of it, all of those things, because they tie so importantly. Into my being and part of it is let's talk about the sex and sexuality part of it part of the reason sex and sexuality Is so important to me is because of all of those years where I thought I was so broken Um, and I knew that early relationships, you know because I did them the monogamous thing where I just kind of went from one partner to the next partner to the next partner and I knew that I had those early explorations that were exciting and interesting and I that I really liked Those, that they were really important to me.
Um, but that every single long term relationship I had, usually within about six to eight months, would, it would start really, uh, deteriorating. And then by the time we, we enmeshed and lived together, like, it was a once a month thing. And, and so I just thought it was me. I thought it was me. Research says that that's, Majority.
I have no idea that, like the first time I heard you talk about that research was the first time I heard that that was something that happened for other people. Mm. Um, and so for me, it became really, really important when I found, when I found my turn on, as it were, that. I continue to have opportunities to choose new things and part of that came with turning 40 and feeling stuck, coming up and turning 40 and feeling stuck and deciding to do 40 new things before 40.
And that includes simple things like just taking art classes, um, right, right down to attending a dungeon for the first time and, and stuff like that as a, just as a voyeur who, and it became so critical to me. So critical to my happiness. It was, and it's all about joy. So, uh, and that's relationship anarchy shows up in my entire world, uh, as, as joy.
That's it. It is. It's a choice for joy. And so where, uh, if I link that relationship anarchy piece to the sex and to the parenting, which all is very funny in one sentence. It is being able to talk to children about the things that. Uh, give pleasure that aren't sexual as well, about how, why it feels really nice when mom runs her hands through your hair, why, uh, going for a massage.
Is a really wonderful thing. I have kids with texture sensitivity. So we talk about those kind of things in the different pleasures, but talking about kids starting to masturbate when they're young that it's not the stark series of books is a really good age appropriate series. Um, and of course, with so many kids, where do babies come from was a question all the time.
Sure. Yeah, so laying around with two kids that are a year and a half apart from each other, both assigned female at birth, um, they were reading in their books and, and looking at it, and one of them said, Mom, Can you explain the holes to me? Um, it says girls have three holes and boys have two, but I only see two when I look in the mirror.
So I explained the anus and the urethra and the vagina. And the other kid said, well, can you explain to me what's what, rather than in a picture, but when I touch myself? And so that's what I did. And I said, well, when you go from the front and you move down, the first thing you feel is this bump. That's your clitoris.
And, and, and the six year old said, mommy, I really love. My clitoris and I said, yeah, you do know mom. I really, really, really love my clitoris. Like when I touch it, it feels really good. I'm like, yes, you do. And. All women like their clitoris, and in that moment, I was like, what is the message I wish I had received?
It is your job to get to know your clitoris. Get to know your clitoris really well, and all of the places where you feel pleasure, so that one day, you'll be able to tell somebody else. What you like and what you don't like and you'll have those words because having those words is really important and this is at six so they didn't quite get how important this was.
The next day it was. When I get married, do I have to do the gross penis in the vagina thing? And so I think that's, that's the point is that they want the facts and they want the information. We're not pushing them into having a committed monogamous marriage with an individual and telling them a script.
We're telling them, I'm telling them, figure out your body and figure out what you need. Yeah. And, um, and that dialogue continues with, uh, the choice of the food you put in your body. I've never ever forced my kids to, to eat any kind of food. The only, the only thing that I have ever forced on them is medicine, um, because their health and safety is my, is my role.
Um, and so consent conversations are also part of that with sex, right? You know, hearing my, my. A four year old who had a severe, at the time, a severe speech delay, yelling at his friends, You may not touch me without my permission! And just being like, so proud that my kids have, they have that base understanding.
And I, like, all of that feeds into sex. And pleasure and pleasure, including mom, I need to go to the dog park with you and run with the dogs because my body is feeling is feeling tight. And I need to get out all that energy. Understand that's part of pleasure.
Nicole: Yeah,
Monica: everything like all of those things. And so the problem with pleasure.
Saying it's about sex. It's not about sex. It's about what pleases our body. Like what foods do we like that make us feel good? What how much sleep do we not like like what blanket do you like and the sensation against your skin? What do you like sleeping in all of those decisions each and every one of those are not decisions kids actually
And so, what it means is, do you prefer this pair of shoes or this pair of shoes? What do you like about this clothing? What is bothering you about it? Every one of those conversations is about teaching your children to know themselves and be able to advocate for themselves and it will link, I hope. Hope it will link directly to their sexual pleasure when they're older.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, these are conversations about bodily autonomy, sensuality, pleasure, right? Consent. These are crucial things to learn as a child, right? And to me, many of us as adults have not learned this, right? Particularly in America. So to be able to teach at a young age, I was definitely Getting emotional, like I was tearing up just at the idea of like you speaking to your children of like, yeah, of course you do.
That makes sense. I think that so many people would be, we know our country would be so uncomfortable by this, so deeply uncomfortable by this, but it's like the research shows. Two years old kids start masturbating. What are you going to say to them? Because you're right. That does set them up for a whole future.
And the best thing that we could do is teach them that, yeah, it feels good. And this is how you're going to be safe with it so that you can have a lifelong journey of pleasure with your body and sharing that with other people. So let's do this in an age appropriate way, which is not getting uncomfortable when they say that.
Right. And so for you to model that and create that sort of experience. I just, I wish I had experienced that myself, you know, because I wish I had to, I think that's where my own tears were coming from is like, God, like what sort of radical, like liberator relationship would I have with my body? If my mother had said, yeah, that makes sense.
And this is how you do this for yourself in safe ways. And this is how maybe one day you might want to share this with somebody else. You don't have to. I was definitely taught that I'm going to have to do this for my husband. I was too. Right, exactly. I was too. So I think these are all such important moments to like build a whole new generation and so I can imagine this comes into the third question of why do you practice relationship anarchy?
Monica: Because I can't choose the unhappiness inherent with following. Uh, the indoctrinated values of society, I can't, there's no other choice for me, because when, once I discovered that poly, polyamory was a choice, then it meant that having desire didn't have to be about sex, having desire could be about connection.
And. When you feel like you don't belong your whole life, you crave that connection all the time. And I have such meaningful connections that I actually have to be like, A list, B list, like, who's, and not really, but, you know, I have to really consider where I put my time. But the, the understanding that I really, really needed to make sure I was connecting meaningfully with people and not, Giving time to things that didn't serve me to, uh, and that's connecting back to that human giver, not being that person, but with genuine intent, choosing where I put my efforts.
And that has It's been a continuous, ongoing thing. Very simple. Like, uh, in academic spaces, service loads are really high. And it's really easy to be like, yeah, I can do that. Yeah, I can do that. Yeah, I can do that. And the next thing you know, your 20 percent service load takes 80 percent of your work time.
And I'm so actively having to step back and be like, what is the decision that gives me joy, that serves me? Or That I get to have the biggest impact, that means something to me. Um, and so that's, that's the big way I show up. And, and you know, I would like to say I'm perfect at it. But, um, I, I fell in love unsurprisingly last, uh, last year.
I met a guy, a boy at Burning Man and, and he's changed my whole life. And, um, and that. Comes with all of those relationship transitions that are really hard and all the big conversations and, and everything that happens with trying to adapt something really big into your life. And, uh. And there. And worse.
So deep in it, like I just laughed yesterday, I booked 46 counseling appointments from now until September because I booked relationship, counseling with two partners, I booked individual counseling for myself, individual counseling for four of my children, and individual counseling for one of my partners who was like, I can't do this for myself, but I really need to go, can you do it for me?
And, um, and realizing in all of that, like, Yeah, this is hard. This is really hard. And thinking in the hard, like, is this too much? Am I too much? Am I asking too much from other people? And that's the place I'm very stuck in right now and stopping and stepping back and thinking this is hard. Because I have so much love.
Oh, yeah. I have so much abundance. Yeah. And it, this isn't a question, this is hard, but this isn't a, do I stay with them or do I not stay with them? This isn't, do they love me or do they not? Is this relationship serving me or not? And these are not the questions we're having. The questions we're having are, how do we make sure that everybody's needs are taken care of?
Okay. Thank you. And that we can manage it all together. How do we do this as a team? What and, and it's conversations about what's, what decisions are the best for my four children and Katie's daughter and what decisions are best for Trevor, my, my live in partner, and, and Katie, uh, who's, who's, uh, Daughter is in grade five and will be moving to new school in grade seven.
Like all of these conversations are, they're hard and they're big and there's lots of, lots of big, big emotions coming out. Um, and there's lots of mistakes being made, but, but not a single. One of these hard things comes with what almost every day of my monogamous marriage had, which was, uh, being miserably unhappy and stuck and feeling like no one was there to help.
I never once, like, every, even in my lowest points in, in the last year, I have never once felt anything other than, I have people who are solidly on my team that are gonna, like, while this is hard, that I'm having a hard time, they're, they're, they're gonna hold the space for me and allow me my time, and they're gonna respond when I, they're gonna respond when I'm able to finally verbalize my needs, and so, yeah, it's, it's all about the showing up, the showing up and the choosing who you show up for.
That's really, I guess that's, that's probably it. It's choosing who I show up for. Sure. It's intense intent about where my effort goes.
Nicole: Right. Yeah. The community that you needed when you were in that monogamous relationship, you needed more emotional depth and support. Right. And, you know, feeling like, again, you're not alone in this, the amount of people that blame themselves in that space, particularly in the erotic space.
But also something's wrong with me. Something's wrong with me. No, we need community. We need diversity. We need more.
Monica: And I had no community, the community, the community at the time, if I think of like back at the time when I separated from my ex husband, we embraced polyamory together, which like our relation, our marriage was going to end.
There's no question. Polyamory did me the favor of really speeding it up. He is, he's actually, He's living, he's living with his, yeah, he's living with his first poly partner and, you know, like they, they've got their thing, but it sped that up for me and, and the big, the big things across, uh, across that time are the choosing to show up, every single thing, but choosing to show up and knowing, knowing too that it's okay to say no, but also knowing, you know, To that, when you do say you're going to do something and you can't, it's okay to ask for your needs to be met.
Like, I think part of that human giver and that, uh, you know, being obligated to your partners, uh, that women are grow up with is that we are taught. We are taught that once we make an obligation to someone, or we say we're going to do something, that we can't come back. We're bad, we're wrong, we're not how consent works, folks.
It's not how consent works at all. And so, so the practicing. Sure. I know I said I could do this for you, but I've really reflected on it. And there's no way I can do this and meet my needs for this at the same time.
The brene Bound choosing, choosing discomfort over choosing resentment. Sure. That. Uh, that one in the back of my head, uh, that's a big thing.
That's a big thing being able to say this. I can't do this and I'm sorry.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's one of the, uh, tricky things of navigating multiple relationships, which we all particularly experience regardless of what structure you practice. Right. But especially in polyamory and relationship anarchy is yes.
Love is abundant. Absolutely. Time and energy are not. And so what are you going to do with that? And what do you do when you have multiple lovers who have all invited you to something that night to do? They all have events. One needs you there. One wants you here. What do you do? And so that under, like there's a lot to learn in that sort of skill building of OK.
So how do I center myself and give to my community and center myself and give to my community? And what does that look like in that interconnected balance? And I think that that is definitely a skill I've had to learn. And I think anybody has to learn again, even with children. And then you're adults as well.
You have to learn how to balance these different relationships. And so that's definitely a skill when you hit the finiteness of time and energy. And so I imagine that plays into the fourth question of how does relationship anarchy impact your practice of intimacy? Ooh, intimacy to me isn't.
Monica: The act of sex.
And let's also say that, um, when I say sex, I don't mean a penis in my vagina either. Um, so it shows up in sexual spaces as, um, Can I science you today? Today, and this is, this is my, I'm a scientist, so, you know, what do we do? We, we change a variable and we see what happens. Do you know what's really great about human bodies?
You can touch them and you can then ask the person for feedback. So I started doing this with one of my first poly partners and I said, I just, tonight I just want to be about you. I want to explore your body. Is that something I can do? And it started with. Massage and, like, just running my hands over different parts of his body and just saying, do you like this?
Do you not like this? Um, and moving on to, like, all the really detailed, intimate acts, um, and one of the things that came from that was, of course, me touching parts of a man's body that I hadn't really spent as much time. Sure. Devoting my energy to, uh, and feedback about so much more. And as I started doing that with more partners, um, I was reminded of that Reddit thread, which is like, you know, what's the key to a woman's pleasure?
And it's like, make sure you do the alphabet thing with your tongue. And then the next thing is, whatever you do, don't do the alphabet thing with your tongue. And make sure you use your fingers, but don't make sure you use your fingers. Is that Bodies are diverse, and bodies are so fun and interesting,
and because
you have multiple partners, you actually get to connect with each one of those on an intimate way, in a completely different way, and so it absolutely shows up.
In that, you know, the, the sex I have with Trevor is of course different than the sex I have with Katie, but it's also different than the sex that I have with Jeff. And then when Katie and Trevor, because Katie and Trevor are dating, when Katie and Trevor are both there, well, that's definitely a different time.
And, and we, because we've been together and in each other's lives in different fluid relationships for so long, it's We have like ongoing, um, sort of agreements that like, if it's my date with Katie and Katie's staying at our house, then, you know, Katie and I are having sex and Trevor gets to insert himself anywhere he wants.
Like it's our joke because it's like, well, today we're going to honour that it's actually our date night, but we're also don't want to exclude you because you're part of our family and you're part of this for us and important. And, and then likewise, if Katie and Trevor have a date, it's, it's I'm play that role.
And, and so those kinds of things Mean that I get to, I get to really explore that full breadth and it also meant choosing pleasure that first choice to choose pleasure and explore the things that gave me pleasure means that the where I have come from in the last seven years. You know, from that person who, like, would, would blush at the idea of, like, somebody holding a paddle
to, like, to, to making sure I had, like, really good child locks, uh, under my bed so that my kids didn't, so I didn't have to have conversations I wasn't quite sure they were ready for yet with them.
And because I have a rule that if they can ask a question, I answer it. I wanted to avoid them seeing the things to need to ask the question. So, so, you know, being. Exploring and being able to try things and be like, Nope, that's not for me. And being able to try things and go, Oh my goodness. I never in a million years thought that would have been something I liked.
And now it's my favorite thing. I can't get enough of it. Yeah. And, and I love it because I can say now I can say now I'll be like, Oh no, that'll never be a thing. And usually about three minutes after I say never. Um, I am presented with the exact exception to that rule.
Nicole: Absolutely. Again, coming back to change is the only inevitable.
The things that we say, I will never. Might be the very thing that speaks to you, right? And so how can we embrace that fluidity a little more? And I'm so glad that you have these spaces to explore different connections and yeah, to bring all three people together, that's going to be a very different experience.
experience then the dyadic to people right that's just plain psychology right is yeah experience is going to bring out different sides of you bring different aspects into the play I mean we're playing with different variables and so I'm so glad that you have these spaces where you can you know explore connection and the unique experience that each one brings out of you and then to Celebrate all of that is such a, such a joy to have you on the podcast and celebrate that.
And I know the next question is usually one that people have a lot to say to you is that, um, what are the difficulties of relationship anarchy for you?
Monica: If we look big picture, the hardest thing about relationship anarchy is what it means is that you have to, you have to justify yourself in every space that isn't, isn't the one you created with the people you love.
Nicole: Yeah, you have how many partners? What do you, wait, what? What do you, you live with, what, what, what, what do you mean? What? What does that word mean? How? How does that even happen? You don't get jealous?
Monica: Yeah, no, actually, I suffer from jealousy all the time, but I know that my jealousy has nothing to do with my partner's actions and everything to do with work I need to do.
So usually It's so insignificant now. It just goes, yeah, I process it and I don't even have to verbalize it.
Nicole: I still have it all the time. And yeah, totally. These days it's less about sex more about, Hey, they're showing up in that way. And I want that or, or this other thing.
Monica: I was super triggered. Okay. So I literally yelled at Trevor the other day, like leave the house.
Go stay at Katie's. I need my time alone. I need time alone. I just need to be home alone. And like, this is, of course, just feeling overwhelmed and needing processing time and not delivering that message in the kindest way. And he was like, well, where am I supposed to go? And I said, well, go stay at Katie's.
Like, you're dating Katie. Go stay at Katie's. And then I look at the calendar last night. Oh no, he hands me his phone. And their dinner reservation for tonight popped up. My justice jealousy went through the roof. I have no, I have absolutely no reason to be jealous. It was exactly what I asked them to do.
He's been asking me to do these exact kind of things with him forever, and I haven't had the spoons to be able to even go out and do them. So I'm so glad that he's found somebody else. To do it with. He's with one of the people I love most in the world, and I'm so happy I get to spend time alone, and I'm still upset that they're going to a restaurant and have made reservations.
It's stupid. It doesn't make sense. But, and I say stupid with like, the fact that I don't get it anyway, is that it's stupid. It's illogical, but that's what emotions are and that part of, part of working through them and part of shedding that indoctrination is acknowledging that they're going to come back and you're going to have to be like, again, and you're going to have to be like, okay, I'm like last night, I didn't even burden Trevor with it.
I just said, I'm having a really hard time over a number of things right now. And I just, I really need you to hold me. And, um, and, you know, when we connected and. Uh, that was all really, really good. But then this morning I was like, whoa, was that like, why on earth was that so hard for me?
Nicole: Sure. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm, this is why I make resources on jealousy.
I think it's so important to talk about how, again, regardless of which relationship structure you're going to experience jealousy, whether it's your, your lover with another lover, a lover with another friend, your lover with another work. Project that's taking all their time. It's you're going to have it right.
You're going to have it. And so what does it mean to acknowledge in those moments? First, like our somatic response, right? Like it is first in the body and then we make meaning of the psychological piece. But if we can slow down that part and go straight to the body, we can work and do some bottom up processing.
We can take the deep breath because you're right. It's not logical. We have gone into our fight. Fight, freeze, fun. And that is actually in the amygdala and it's not in our prefrontal cortex. We have lost our executive functioning skills and we are activated. And so you're right. It doesn't make any sense.
And so let's not try to process right now. Let's take a deep breath. Let's go outside. Please hold me. Right. And then I appreciate what you were able to do afterwards too, which is. Yeah. Here's what I need for connection. I need quality time. I need this. Once we've grounded, once we've thought about it, reflected, then to be able to ask for what you need.
I mean, oh, what a skill to learn in these dynamics, right? And it's not easy.
Monica: Like I would love to say that I, I'm doing well, but like I have been in, in a state, like probably a more of a state of activation than I have been in a really long time recently. And it's not, it's a really interesting one. Cause I, they're big emotional, big feelings.
But there is, there's no insecurity associated with them.
Right. And I've never felt that before. I don't have, I don't have any insecurity in my relationships or, or the fact that we're on the same team. I have insecurity in my, I feel insecure in my ability to meet people's needs and, and how that What that will, um, might change in what they then need in our relationship and how that's changing.
But I don't, I don't ever have that kind of insecurity that is, um, that is feeling like everything's going to fall apart. It's really hard.
Nicole: Well, I want to ask one question, though. I really think. So if you were to look. All the way back to the beginning of hearing about polyamory and multi loves and all of that.
Tell me, or answer this one question, has jealousy gotten at least easier? So much easier. Right, right. So, you know why? It's not over, it's not over, but it has gotten better. Just flat line.
Monica: It's re, it's re framing your understanding of jealousy as just another emotion that you have to acknowledge. And figure out why you have it and work through.
Nicole: Oh yeah, and like, legally, people were, um, God, I gotta get the stats on this. I'll make sure I have it in this note, uh, show notes below. But legally, you used to be able to murder out of rage and jealousy, and jealousy being an approved and understandable by the legal system of like, Yeah, you killed this person because he fucked your wife.
Like, of course, that makes sense. You were in jealousy and rage as if we were just animals that couldn't control it. There is a lot and that is so tied up with the romance myth and love of I just couldn't I had to right? This is also where problematic stuff with sex comes up, too. Oh, I just couldn't she was right there.
I had like Oh, my God, folks, we have power and control over this. And so you're right. Reframing it is absolutely a part of that. So I think that's why I'm so passionate about having conversations like this, having free resources on my website, because it is about education and education is empowerment.
And the more you know that all these complicated things up in here, because I know, like you said at the beginning, right? Relationship anarchists don't like labels. I get you. Okay. Every word that's coming out of my mouth right now is a label. Of a thought and experience in my body and so the more that we can understand the labels to use to understand for the word I'm putting in this in quotes jealousy because it is an umbrella word to explain so much of a somatic experience so much of a narrative.
And so the more that we can get language that the better and easier gets which I can imagine plays into you know the next question are of what are the joys you've experienced in relationship anarchy.
Monica: Oh my goodness. There are, there's so, like, I can't even begin to, like, enumeration of my joys is not even possible.
Like, it's not. Do you know how much we need that narrative? Let, let's,
I want to give a few, I'll just give a few examples of actual things and conversations that have happened. So first, I don't do pop culture. I've always been that person that didn't fit in when people were making the inside jokes that everybody knows.
And, and Katie and Trevor share a very. Deep, deep love of Star Wars and, um, and so I, uh, I've learned that, uh, their fandoms are very important to them and, and there's a lot of emotion associated with it. And even though I don't have those same things, I love and appreciate so much the joy that that brings them.
Nicole: Yeah.
Monica: And, and that, that's been in process in and of itself, uh, in May the 4th was last weekend and in our area we have, um, like from the fur trading days and, you know, uh, you know, The colonial, uh, days when all of our Indigenous populations were segregated by, by our populations. We have a fort in Edmonton, that's Fort Edmonton Park, and they have historical buildings, and they have this historical theatre, and they did Star Wars for May the fourth day, and Katie just sent a, found it, and sent a text to our group text with the four, us four, in the poly, the four adults in the polycule, and said, can we do this?
And it immediately was a yes. And so last Saturday, we went to this historical theatre with five children, me and my three partners, and Katie's mom. And, uh, I would never choose to watch Star Wars, spend my afternoon watching Star Wars by myself. But I got to have this moment where I got to have my arm around my nine year old son and my 14 year old laid down on my shoulder, uh, because my six foot seven partner in front of me was in front of the tiniest kid, so I had to move, and that I was able to look over and see Katie and Trevor cuddling, and my whole family was in this space giggling and laughing, and While we took up so much room and we have such a unique family, every single interaction was me giving Katie's mom love and Katie's mom running up to my kids because they're her bonus grandkids and like all of those things and that the family, the family my kids have because of relationship anarchy.
Nicole: Yeah.
Monica: That's it's the village. It's the community that I didn't grow up with because of family like normative family structures and our society that my kids know that they have so many trusted adults that are just fully on their team and and events like that where my kids can. Get out of my vehicle.
And there are, you know, four other adults that they're like, Hey, these are all the things that are going on. Those, those kind of moments are amazing. And, um, particularly Katie has been in my kids life since before we were dating. So she's been in their life since they were really little. And, uh, there are, she'll come in the house and they run to the door just like they do when I'm there and they, they snap at her and yell at her like they, they do me and that means that they're secure and they're safe.
And we had this great moment. My son turned nine at the beginning of April, and we were sitting, sitting in a room together, the four of us, and I said, I don't know what to get him for his birthday. And within five minutes. My partners, each one of them had suggested things that were perfect, that told me they saw Ross and who he is as a person and what his needs are, uh, in a way that made me feel they saw my kids.
So they were loving, they were loving me through loving my kids. They chose that. Oh yeah, so beautiful. And then I think, Jeff, my newest partner, he, uh, he has a really interesting backstory. He worked, he, he is a, he's a software engineer who, a computer programmer who worked for, you know, the company that everybody, uh, uses on a daily basis, uh, and retired, uh, having, having, um, made, uh, quite a large amount of money, just having shares in a startup at one point.
And, um, When he came into my life, I was like, hey, this is the, this is the crap you need to know, like, financially, I'm a train wreck, I'm in court, and I can, you know, I'm working two jobs, and I have all these partners, and I have kids with needs, and like, there's never going to be a point where I can be equal.
To you in this, that's just not going to happen. And so I need you to be aware of these things because money isn't actually a value I hold. I hate capitalism, but I acknowledge that that is something that we need to work within the system that we do. And, um, and that led to some interesting Googling about cultural values and how, and, and our active decision to continually talk about what value, what our Values.
What things are we putting at the top of that hierarchy in our lives? And who, what do we choose? And the things we choose are connection. The things we choose are community. Um, the things we, the things we choose are aggressively loving and supporting our family.
Nicole: Yeah.
Monica: So when, so we're still having that conversation and it's not easy because you have to remember that you have all those.
Biases that society gives you, but. After several months of dating and realizing that this was one of those game changing relationships and we had to make some good decisions about whatever our relationship was going to be moving forward. I kept saying to him, like, we have to protect you. I'm fighting with my ex husband.
I don't want you to be a victim. Like, we have to make sure that he doesn't go after any of your resources. Like, I don't want you to be harmed. And we kept having this conversation. I kept explaining to him and he kept accepting it. And I was sitting in his house in December, uh, having retained a new lawyer.
And I looked at, and he looked at me and he's like, stop for a second. He's like, I have a proposal for you. He's like, you keep saying we need to protect me. How about instead we choose the family that we're choosing and you use me? As the person to protect your kids, put me up as a shield between your kids and the things that are harming them.
That, uh, that is not a conversation that ever would have happened without relationship anarchy because it required conversations about values that are so counter to the society we live in. And. Like, the power of choice that comes with money is incredible. It's an incredible experience, uh, to go from last year having almost no choice to, to having more choice now and, and dissecting how much I hate myself for my privilege sometimes and the shame that is associated with it.
Um, but how powerful is it that my relationship structure and the way I connect with humans is? It means that those humans also get to choose to show up for the other humans I love, um, and make such a meaningful impact in a way that's important to them. Mm hmm. Uh, whoo, that one was a really, really big one, and I'm still processing his.
His generosity and his kindness and his support in that, and that, like, that's wonderful. I, I hope I always have to, uh, and, and, and, and processing being actually loved for who I am is always. Yeah. Oh yeah. Let's keep growing there everybody. That one, that one's a big gift too. And then like the final thing is just really silly.
I, I lose my phone and my keys and my wallet constantly. My whole life is spent looking for something. And, uh, one day, We were sitting in, uh, sitting in around the table doing a puzzle, Katie and Trevor and I joking around and I said, Oh, I don't know where my phone is. And Katie goes, Oh, it's in the garage.
You left it on the box in there. And I was, Oh, amazing. And I walked in there and I came out and I was like, I don't know where and Trevor's like, your wallets on the kitchen counter. And I was like, amazing. And, uh, and then I went, I walked out of the room and I heard them talking and, and Katie goes, do you just.
Yeah. Note where she leaves her wallet and her keys and her phone when you see them just because you know, she's gonna need them later and he's like all the time. He's like actually and then he started doing things like grabbing my earbuds that I would take out and leave on a counter and he would just reassemble them into charge in my corner of chaos as we call it and, and, and things like that.
And yeah. I, that object impermanence that I have means that I put something down and I forget that it existed and it's been a source of an enormous number of arguments and really deep, deep hurt in my life and I've never felt so seen and loved and appreciated as something as simple as. Yeah, I grab her keys and I put them back where she can find them.
Nicole: Yeah, these acts of love, these acts of love and such wide community connection, you know, everything that I learned in psychology, there was a lot to unlearn, but everything that I did learn in psychology told me that relationships make our quality of life and relationships make our mental health. They make who we are as individuals.
And so to have these flourishing relationships, I'm sure it brings such joy into your life and changed everything. And I get so angry when I hear some theorists, psychologists, scientists say, Oh, we're, we're meant to pair bond. Are we hold on a second. When you come out of that womb in the paradigm of what you're thinking is it's a two person household.
First off you double bond. Okay. I just want in your paradigm of what you do, you don't, you bond to in theory, the two parents structure. Right. So at minimum we should all be double bonding here. Okay. So first off, but let alone the fact that even that is wrong, right. That like historically we have moved in groups, right.
And have moved in communities in family structures. And so then, yeah, for your kids to have all these beautiful connections that they can trust. And love and for you to have all those beautiful that is what we did for centuries before right until we got very nuclear set up where people are reporting the highest rates of loneliness and isolation that we have ever experienced culturally and then asking why are we suffering in our mental health?
I don't care how many people you're having sex with. It's because you don't have community right? It's funny to have this. Community space for kids to have the community space and for you to enjoy your sexual pleasure. Oof, you know, like that's a revolution right there. It is. And so I'm sure that leads into to the last question, right?
Um, what do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy?
Monica: I'm going to take this a little farther back, because this is something that you kind, this idea you imparted on me, which is, uh, deconstructing normal relationship anarchy really at the heart of it is that whole principle, everybody fits under that normal distribution.
We're all normal. And. The only thing that isn't normal is to not talk about it and share those experiences with the community. Right. And being brave is a huge part of the relationship anarchy model. And so I wish that people knew that if they. Approached life from or their relationships from a relationship anarchy lens, that would mean that they were providing places for other people to be brave and themselves to be brave.
And when you provide spaces that are safe for other to be brave, when you provide brave spaces, you have connection. So, and when you have connection, you have everything you need. And you actually. As long as you're, you're, you know, your basic, uh, human needs are taken care of connections, really everything.
That's it. And yeah,
Nicole: I'd throw that in there as one of those basic human needs.
Monica: I actually think, um, and, and when I, when I'm taking human needs, I'm thinking about the basics. What I'm talking about are the basics to keep your body healthy. The definition of alive. I'm not talking about thriving. I'm talking about food, shelter, staying warm, oxygen.
When I'm talking, connection is, connection is the basic human need. I think that should, like, it's right up at that top. There's nowhere, you don't get anywhere without connection and community and belonging. So I think, I wish that people knew that. Deconstructing their normal, approaching things with a relationship anarchy lens, allow it will allow them to be brave, will allow other people to be brave and will allow them to find connection and community and belonging.
And that means joy. That means joy.
Nicole: Yeah, and I really appreciate you sharing your experience with it because you're right. We are social creatures. And so part of what that means is that we look to others on how to live. And so when I can't turn on my, my TV and see a, a show portraying a relationship, anarchist community with children and family, I.
Don't know how to do this. There is no manual. There is no examples. I think when we look back historically before our colonial context, we can see it, but we don't have any correct, right, but we don't have any current media out there. And so what we need is more people who are willing to tell their story and say, this is how I'm doing this so that someone can get a glimpse into a world of a possibility and to start to create their own.
And so. Relationship anarchy is such a practice of deconstruction and a lifelong practice because the power structures are constantly above us right and in us and in the water and are in our body. And so what does it mean to with compassion with humility continue to deconstruct that and also dream of a new world the work that you're doing with your children the work that you're doing in your community to build that.
And then even the conversation that you're having with me right now right like you're you're inviting people into that space. It's a space of compassionate deconstruction and expansive dreaming of a future. And so I'm, I'm so thankful that I got to have you. That's such a compliment. What a huge compliment.
Monica: Because that is like, absolutely, like, wait, as you, as you said, that is like, I'm a scientist. So I teach my first year students like. Question everything. Oh, yeah. Absolutely everything. And I, I try to bring in implicit bias and understanding that like you, you have so much to deconstruct just in your first thought about me when I walk into this classroom.
And And so that all links right back to what you just said about relationship anarchy and questioning how you show up. It's the same thing. You question, you question, you question. And that means the conversations you have are pretty heavy, uh, and interesting and deep and confusing because there's no resources or though, although there's so many more resources now, like even just like your podcast alone.
Uh, is such a resource for people, you know, it's a resource in itself, but Uh, you also have facilitated connection and community with your podcast because you credit everybody and just your approach of having people nominate others and has created a space where everybody's voice is valid.
Uh, and the community creates the community and expands the community without anybody in any position of power.
Other than you, but that's, it's your space or you're allowed to do that. Deciding what happens on behalf of anybody else. And you've created a space that allows, allows for those conversations. And sometimes those conversations are hard for those of us who are trying to navigate this, this normative world, normal world.
Nicole: Yeah.
Monica: And I had a kid, one of my kids, who's I mean, ask for their DSM, the DSM 5 for their text messages. So that's how cool this kid is. Um, I can't, a few weeks ago I said, I, I know this is really hard for you. I'm sorry that mom's choice of humans to love in the structure of our family means that we have conversations and we have to talk about things that other people don't.
And that means that you have knowledge and understanding that your classmates don't. And, and that means that sometimes you feel like you don't fit in because we are so inclusive in our family and we're trying to understand other people. And she looked at me and she said, do you think you could not?
Choose to do these things so it would be easier for me. And I said, I love that you just asked me that and I can understand why. And the answer is no. And the reason is, is because I tried that. I tried it. And almost everybody in this world is trying that. And it was an absolute failure.
I am an absolute failure being somebody I'm not.
So I'm going to choose to be who I am. And I want you to do that too, even though it's sometimes hard.
Nicole: Yeah.
Monica: I think that at the end of the day, that's exactly it, is we're having those conversations so you can make the choice and you can be brave.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. And I'm sure one day they'll look back and really appreciate that.
In childhood, they're like, please stop, Mom, we're done. Right? Well, and, and, you know, like, they will.
Monica: They will. And they'll need therapy for something I did wrong, too. It's classic, of course. Yeah.
Nicole: But you're doing, you're doing a great job. I'm sure, right? You're truly doing
Monica: I think if you're trying to show up and you love your kids, like if you legitimately are just trying to meet their needs, uh, and with good intent and, and the proper resources, um, you're, you're going to, you're going to love them, you're going to love them and give them what they need because you just have to show up like every other relationship you have.
Nicole: Right, and I appreciate everything you said about the space I've created here. This is my child, my baby, you know.
Monica: I'm like serious fangirling here going on. And I love it because you're younger than me and you've gone through so many of the things. But you're going through academic spaces and so many of the same experiences.
And you're talking about them in an open way. That had I had the resources that you were talking about now 10 years ago, I would have been that much more successful and, you know, my Google history wouldn't have looked so weird. And, um, and so I think it's really important that you get that feedback because I know you're getting love from other people, but also, I feel like I'm in a position where my, my compliment to you, my appreciation of you should actually have a little bit more weight.
And the reason I'm going to tell you that is because I'm an academic who works in equity spaces and has, you know, it participates in, in research, research in this community and lives in this community and sees a struggle and, and, and. And you are a person who is talking about each and every one of the intersecting identities that create these challenges for people within our community and you when you do that.
You are offering the less statistically probable population the opportunity to be seen and heard.
And, and particularly the, the, the seeing yourself represented part, seeing yourself represented, uh, in there. And so when you're talking to somebody who is a queer disability advocate, Who is black, who grew up in poverty, and they talk about all of the ways relationship anarchy shows up in their life.
And then you talk to a privileged white woman who's polyamorous in Canada and working in an academic sphere and our experiences intersect. That. Destroys the ability to look at somebody else and see them as anything other than the same thing you are, which is human.
And so, I think I am more qualified to give that compliment.
You should feel that much better about it. Than, than just, just, and every single person who's been seen on your podcast and giving you compliments is totally valid. But I hope you do realize exactly how impactful it is. And as an educator, the fact that you've done this while you were in school, put yourself out there, you put yourself out there, you put yourself at risk to have these conversations.
You have done that. And as somebody who waited until I had tenure and my girlfriend had tenure, To come out because I was too scared to, uh, say I was polyamorous because it's the one thing that's not protected in my, in my labels. I, uh, I have so much admiration for how hard it is to show up in a space when you have made yourself completely vulnerable.
And the gift you've given other people, uh, in doing and putting yourself in there is Something you should be really proud of, because I know it hasn't been easy for you. There is no way you haven't sat there some days going, Why am I doing, putting myself out there? Why am I doing this? I know for sure that you have had those days where you've been really, really scared that you've said or done a thing that, that might blow up all the other things because you are showing up for others and for yourself in a way you need to.
So it's really amazing what you're doing. So just keep doing it. Please keep doing it. We need people like you and all the guests on your show that are talking about all the amazing things in their life. The world needs the conversations you're having.
Nicole: I got emotional. I appreciate that.
I was just so scared. You know, I, I, um, in my three year anniversary episode, I talked about like matching for internship and I had put the podcast on my CV and every single episode I talked about psychedelics and all the sex I'm having and the orgasms. I'm happy, you know, all these sorts of things. And I was just like, This is the moment where I'm not gonna match, this is the moment where I put myself out there so much so that I'm not gonna land this, it's gonna delay my thing, and I had to sit there being like, and if that happens, Okay.
It was worth every moment that someone like you or someone else had texted me and said like, this is changing my life. And I said, okay, I'm going to do it. And I'm not going to care if it means I don't get the academic position. So it's been a journey. So I really appreciate you. Because it has been really, really scary.
And so I'm really thankful that I did match. And I'm going to, uh, a barbecue after this with, um, my, um, full like therapist team at Sana healing collective that has like loved me and made me feel so safe along the journey because I definitely came in to train with them like two years ago and I was like scared to be queer because other academic spaces that was too much let alone everything else I did and so I'm really thankful to have the space for them that like I'm about to go and hang out with them right now they're gonna celebrate me and all that I am right and so I think coming back again they're they're saying is community is medicine right and so to be able to have these community spaces People like you, people on the podcast, other sort of like spaces where I've been celebrated.
It's, it's what's made it okay. Because I knew that people loved me along the journey. So I'd say academia, you can take me or leave, but they did take me. And so I'm here
Monica: and everything you're saying like hits me so hard. Like I, I had a psychological injury last year and I had to go off work and it happened after.
Um, and I have got, uh, repeatedly this last year, I didn't get a job interview for a job that I've done. I could have, um, my job application could have been a 10 year application. I've been doing it off the side of my desk for years. Um, and then, um, I was, I had a bunch of, uh, consequences at work because of speaking out about equity issues people complained.
And, and I was in the same, all of those same things that you are saying, not. Knowing if you're going to be accepted for who you are and knowing you can't show up in that space if you are not and I found, I found my belonging after in March at the end of March during pride week and then our EDI week where are I hosted, um.
I hosted a parenting seminar with, uh, where we talked about raising queer kids and raising queer futures, and I hosted a research event. I saw myself in the research.
I, I was a category in the research that some of my colleagues were talking about, and I showed up. I, as a person, an individual, showed up in the seminar at the front of the room, and sitting in an academic space where I wasn't feeling safe, and hearing an academic colleague's It was a queer joy.
It was queer joy research about queer sexual joy and how it's so much more impactful for these gender fluid populations. And I was just like, I belong here. I belong in this space. These are my people. Just because I don't have community where I am in my department and in my job doesn't mean that these people don't exist in this space.
And so what you're saying about Putting yourself out there and not knowing if you're going to get that internship and people are going to appreciate for you for who you are. When so many other people out there have told you over and over how much they need this thing you're doing, uh, I, I, I know, I know to the depth of my soul how hard that is to choose to be vulnerable again and again and choose to show up and know that people are still going to judge you and hurt you over and over.
And it's still the right thing to do.
Nicole: Right.
Monica: That's so hard. So, I'm so, like, I, I have to admit that when the podcast episode came out that you got your internship and it was all set, there, I actually cheered. I actually cheered. I was, I was in Phoenix and I was sorting all this stuff for Burning Man for Shade Structures and I heard it and I was
like, ahhh, They are so lucky to get get her!
I'm so excited! Uh, so cheering you on from afar and just so excited to see where you go and you know like I absolutely hope that I hope that I get to have a conversation with you again in the future, um, in a professional way because so many things that you're working on intersect with things that I'm working on.
And so I, uh, I have a feeling that, uh, that. Your, uh, your journey is going to be a really cool one, and I can't wait to see what you do.
Nicole: Well, thank you for seeing me in that and celebrating with me and joining me in the process.
Monica: Thank you for making yourself findable and putting yourself out there.
Nicole: I appreciate it.
Yeah, and Before I head off to my barbecue with more of my community that has made all of this possible. I do want to make sure I ask you the final closing question of our experience today, which is, and I know you deconstructed it already and you can do it again if you'd like, but what is the one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Monica: The good things, the really good things in your life still being hard sometimes. Yeah, we just talked about that right there, right? Exactly, like, but I think we tend to think that when things are hard, that means, that equates to bad, and that means that we've made a bad decision. And no, uh, hard, hard means you're human, and usually that you just have something to slow down and think about what's next and what you're doing and be deliberate.
But it's normal. It's normal that even the best things are hard.
And we know that. We know that because we talk about working hard to achieve a goal or, you know, build a house or get an education. So are relationships. Relationships are no different. Having a, having a conflict with a partner for the first time when you've had a really good long relationship and you, um, you actually have those activated feelings and you say things in anger and having that experience for the first time, it's really easy to say, Oh, we're broken.
This relationship is like to default to the, like, we can't do this. There's something inherently wrong. I suggest instead saying, Hey, this means that we're now at the place where We can let our guards down and be imperfect because we have the ability to rupture and then we have the ability to repair after.
And that hard is so important to keep the good, to keep the good and make the good that much better. So I wish people knew that the good is hard too. Yeah. And it's normal and it's okay and it's not a reason to explode your life and you're not wrong and you're not at fault and you're not bad. It just is because we're human.
Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. Deconstructing purity culture was probably the hardest thing and I don't think I've finished fully, right? I'm still unpacking that and it's still difficult. And so I find some of these difficult things to be also, yeah, the most rewarding, really investing in the relationships around us to go through the rupture and repair, to take these scary moments in academic spaces and to use our privilege to actually change the game for future generations.
These are. Difficult things, but absolutely some of the most rewarding. And so I'm, I'm so thankful that you came onto the podcast today and shared all of your wisdom and your lived experience with all the listeners. So thank you, Monica.
Monica: Thank you. It was wonderful. Well, having just a conversation is my favorite way to, to learn, to learn and to teach.
So, uh, thank you. Have a great time at your barbecue and soak up all the love and appreciation from your community. Appreciate that. I'll feel that one of my bodies.
Nicole: If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast. And head on over to modernanarchypodcast. com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
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