Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole. On today's
episode, we have Therapist Jordan, Join us for a conversation about the power of psychedelics to deepen intimacy with others, with ourselves, and with our collective healing. Together we talk about letting go of the higher dose, the commune retirement plan, and the importance of integration. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.
I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Nicole, I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice, supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives, and Intimate relationships.
Dear listener, Mm. Relationships are the most wild drug, right? Wow. Romantic, platonic, sexual, all of them, really. I mean, What does it mean to stay connected to these beautiful people in our lives and to create a relationship that is living, right? Change is the only constant. So that concept of the other person and the dynamic that you have is ever evolving, ever unfolding.
And what does it mean to ebb and flow and dance with people in that journey of love? Oh, Wow. Presence, right? Presence. Presence. Again and again. Where are we? Oh, we're here. Now we're here. It's a different story. A different narrative. You know, what does it mean to stay in the present moment? Of course, if there are patterns that are coming through in the past, to acknowledge those and to respond accordingly, right?
But to not get so lost in the future, but to stay present here. Right now, with uh, the fall time, so many people are starting new relationships, breaking up, reconfiguring, and so just the power of, yeah, relationships to shape your world, if you're going through a reconfiguration, or if you're going through NRE, wow, the world looks different, and I would call that a pretty powerful drug.
Alright, dear listener. If you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources at modernanarchypodcast. com linked in the show notes below. And I also want to say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.
So thank you. If you want to join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, then you can head on over to patreon. com slash modern anarchy podcast, also linked in the show notes below. And with that, dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love, and let's tune in to today's episode.
So then, the first question I would ask you is How do you want to introduce yourself to the listeners?
Jordan: Oh, gosh. I never know how to answer this question. I feel like I came out of grad school and I've been slowly like refining that each time. And now I've got to a point where I'm like, I don't want to be Ivy tower ish.
Um, but I, you know, I am Jordan Dabrowski. I use she and they pronouns. Um, I am a LCSW social worker and a therapist. And, uh, facilitator and, uh, Uh, practice owner, uh, and educator in the psychedelic space. So exciting.
Nicole: And your lack of interest in the ivory tower is why you're here, right? So welcome to the space.
Thank you. Yeah. Um, so I would love to hear a little bit about your personal journey, if you'd be willing to share of how you got to this space and your passion for psychedelic drugs.
Jordan: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, so my journey actually starts as a teenager with a broken inhaler in Peru. Um, inhaler busted on this very small plane that we were taking from.
Iquitos to, uh, this region, uh, altitude kind of, I think just burst the thing. And as an Aztec, I was about to hike the Inca trail without my inhaler, and that was very scary. Uh, it did not go well. Um, but thankfully our guide went and was able to communicate with some of the local, uh, indigenous women nearby who offered me this plant that I rubbed between my hands.
Um, and it works better than my inhaler. It was called Munya. Um, my understanding is some sort of relative to the, uh, cambomile family, but it's not something that we easily grow here. Otherwise I would have it all over my house, but that helped ease my asthma. And it made me really realize like there is so much of a depth of knowledge that's being held, um, by people who aren't in the pharmaceutical world.
Uh, and started opening me up to other kinds of ways of healing. Flash forward, I get to college. I think I'm going to be an ethno pharmacist until I realized there's no jobs in that market. Uh, I ended up being, uh, anthropology and religion major, really fascinated with the ways that people understand themselves and understand themselves in the broader context.
People often ask, You know, anthropology is often very like evolutionary and religion often gets touted as very creationist. But I think about this as really them complimenting each other and people's understanding of where we come from and where we're going. So I ended up with this very like.
Anthropological theory based, you know, spiritual side. I was going to do a master's in divinity, which is what you need to be to become a pastor with a social work, uh, degree, like a dual degree program. Ended up falling in love with social work. So I just dove into that, but after I graduated and worked for a couple of years in community mental health, I really saw once again, all the ways that Western medicine wasn't working.
Uh, same people, same problems, uh, not enough resources, not enough, not enough emphasis on the things that really liberate people from these systems. And I got burnt out during the pandemic and was like, I need to go into something that I really believe in. And that's how I ended up tracing my way back to.
To psychedelics, uh, as this plant medicine, as this alternate form of healing, that's really more integrative of the place where I can bring forth this like anthropological religious or like spiritual side, um, to like what we call biopsychosocial spiritual perspective. And I'm so glad I landed back here because it's become my entire career now.
Nicole: Absolutely. Such a fun place to start the conversation. Just thinking about your anthropology background, right? And thinking about the way these systems, cultures impact us, right? I think what back in the sixties and seventies, there was this view of psychedelics as the thing that was going to save the world, right?
If we could only put this in the water, Then everybody would have this deeper understanding of maybe ego death and deeper connection and care and love for humanity. And I think, you know, it's interesting to see that people who take psychedelics and more extremist views, right, feel deeper and bolden into their extremist views.
And so I think that, you know, the nature of psychedelics as a nonspecific amplifier is so important. And the anthropology and cultural context of how that shapes what gets amplified. I'd be curious if you could say more to that.
Jordan: I'm so glad you bring that up because that is something, someday I want to do like a PhD dissertation on what determines.
Whether your psychedelic experience humbles you or creates an egomaniac. We see a lot of these examples of people who do psychedelics once or maybe twice, and then all of a sudden, you know, build an entire empire around it or want to become a guru around it. I often, you know, say I'm, I'm not an expert in psychedelics.
I'm somebody who's trained. Right. And so that's something, um, I'm someone who has personal experience. I highly encourage people to have a personal experience with non ordinary states of consciousness, and not just a one off thing and not just a single substance, but so many different ways to have non ordinary states of consciousness that I'm sure we can talk about later.
But there's also a real emphasis, I think, in, in contemporary literature now on the self reflection piece, because of the way that like the seventies went. Um, people were dosing people without consent. People were, um, conducting these experience, uh, experiments without people knowing that they were part of this, and we learned that that's not the way to treat people, right?
Uh, that's the way things collapse. And obviously I think in sex education, you know, the importance of consent in like mutually respectful relationships. Um, and so really trying to create, I think this, this new landscape that is a little bit more self reflective, a little bit more self aware, um, of some of the ways that these can amplify the wrong things at times.
Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. So maybe we could pick apart that, uh, dissertation idea, right? Um, I'm curious that my brain's already starting to percolate on different ways of, you know, exploring that question. And for me, the first thing that's coming to mind of, right. Whether you become, yeah, that's super engorged egomaniac, right.
If that's the word we want to use, um, versus that humbled, Oh, community collective, I guess. I think part of the conversation around that, that hope of, of that energy of love is the community connection. Right? If we think about the ways that we internalize various relationships, my thought would be that the, my hypothesis to your dissertation question would be that it's about the communities that people are in, right?
we are. Is that community talking about the long lineage of culture and indigenous wisdom with this in such a way that that person realizes, oh, wow, this isn't something to capitalize on and presume I know the one way, or is this a group of hedge fund bros that just did it and are like, wow, like this is super exciting.
How can we use all of our millions to do this? Right? I, I feel like ultimately it's that question of what's your community look like, right?
Jordan: Yeah, and out of that, I think for people, it gets a little nuanced sometimes because people will sometimes say they're doing it for the community, they're doing it to liberate, you know, their, their friends, their family members, people from depression and that sort of thing.
Um, but what we're really looking at is something like a white savior complex, right? Uh, or at the very least a savior complex, um, and to be able to kind of deconstruct that and look at a savior complex as still an incredibly isolated experience. That's so much pressure that a person's putting on yourself and obviously requires this, like, power dynamic that you're holding in place.
place with that structure that, yeah, perhaps if we really were better at, as a society at really building these community networks where people feel collective responsibility, feel collective support, that maybe we'd see less of this kind of egomaniac, uh, outcome of some psychedelic users.
Nicole: Right, right.
And I almost want to, you know, there's obviously people who are intentionally doing harm and we can even ask deeper questions about where that harm started in their lineage, that that's where they're going to their desires. But even that white savior complex of desire to help other people. I want to believe that's in a good space, but maybe lacking the larger systemic implications for what that actual change could look like.
I'm already starting to think about your community mental health work, right? Of what sort of change would we actually need to get people out of depression? It's not just the psychedelic, it's a massive restructuring of resources in our country and world, right? And so maybe the people who are trying to do this just are, are lacking that level of.
Awareness yet to the larger implications.
Jordan: Yeah, it's interesting you bring up the community mental health because 1 of the things when I went into psychedelics, the company I worked for actually wanted to do a give back program where they were going to partner with a nonprofit, um, kind of community mental health center and offer 1 person a month, um, 1 person at a time, a free slot so that they could go through the ketamine treatment program.
For those who don't know, ketamine assisted psychotherapy is incredibly expensive. You're talking several thousand dollars without insurance being able to cover it. So that I thought was a really cool idea. So I went back to my old community mental health center. Uh, and was like, Hey, I want to offer this to you.
Like I got this great new job. We want to be able to help your clients. Uh, and they didn't want it. And, you know, I, I kind of was just like, Picked my mind and picked my mind and, uh, they were substance use treatment center as well. Uh, and I think that there are some fears around being able to partner with these types of medicines, uh, and maybe losing funding that's federally, um, still tied to this very abstinence based, very, um, medical model that.
really permeates how treatment is designed because of money.
Nicole: Yep. There's the systems right there, right? If we step outside of this box, are we going to lose the resources and just the ways that the history of research is so laden with bias? Around drugs, right? And immediately my brain is going to rat park, right?
And the research that we know, yeah, about, uh, chaotic use, you know, and just the ways that the field is still grappling with years of, you know, Poor research really, right?
Jordan: Yeah. Poor research, poor boundaries in the research and really not well representative research. Uh, we have a long ways to go. Uh, a lot of the, you know, maps trials, a lot of people know maps as the people that have been pushing MDMA.
We thankfully hope that MDMA will be legal within the next year or so. Um, because of the amazing work they've been doing since the, you know, the original psychedelic movement in the U S um, but they were really working on this like, um, by gender and model of, you have a man, you have a female, uh, to represent the masculine and the feminine polarities, um, you know, perhaps reduce the possibility of like sexual malpractice, but, you know, it's, it's You know, that, that leads to a huge gap in their research for genderqueer people.
Nicole: Absolutely it does. And so hopefully we can be a part of the people who are advocating for a new future with that. Right. And I think one of the things I wanted to talk to you about is The power of, and we're already hitting on it, right? Relationships and psychedelics. How are we impacted by the various relationships, whether it's to people or larger cultural opinions on these things?
But I'm also curious about psychedelics and intimacy and, uh, yeah, what your thoughts are in terms of expanding that capacity for us.
Jordan: Yeah, no, I was thinking about this in preparation and the limited amount of work I've been able to do with couples using psychedelics. Yeah, I think intimacy is like the number 1 thing that stands out.
Um, you know, we don't talk about it as much anymore, but the default mode network, right? Yeah. Uh, there are these automatic thoughts, these automatic kind of rubrics that you function with in the world that psychedelics turn off and allow you to see things, um, kind of clear. I often say it's like going through a corn maze.
I'm very Midwestern in this way. It's like going through a corn maze and you keep getting stuck. Um, psychedelics turn the walls of that corn maze down so that now you can see this new path. Still up to you to take that new path, but they give you this new perspective. Um, how this relates to intimacy, I'm thinking is it really.
Um, it helps us let go of some of these stories we tell ourselves about our relationship or about our partner, um, about the people in our life, all this stuff that gets away, gets in the way of really being able to express who you are and let that person express who they are and feel all the way through it.
Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. You're hitting on neuroplasticity, right? The ability to make new neuronal pathways or maybe if you've always gone down this pathway of judgment towards yourself and your relationship, right? Where it's a, b, c, d, a, b, c, d, right? You're having this experience with the psychedelic drugs where it might go a, b, c, f, j, right?
D, right? Like we're just, we're just a whole different pattern here. And, you know, just to pin on the, uh, fear of, or just to pin on the problem of psychedelic exceptionalism, right? It's important to remember that cocaine also gives us neuroplasticity, right? So there are a lot of different drugs that do that sort of remapping, reconnecting, but there is something very specific about You know, psychedelic medicines compared to cocaine, right?
In terms of, like you said, that default mode network, maybe we're softening those manager parts and you're in a little bit more tenderness of your experience to open up and share some of these more vulnerable pieces of yourself with a partner. And then to have that corrective experience where you can be held and celebrated in that beauty.
I mean, That's how therapy works, right? Is this relational model of someone who can hold that container for you. And it also is applied in our other relationships in our lives. Right. And so, yeah, there's so much capacity there in that heart opening experience.
Jordan: Yeah, absolutely. You know, 1 of the things I'm thinking about is 1 of the theories of like, how psychedelics works is the method and usually it gets broken down to pins and rebus.
I tend to lean more towards pins, which is an acronym for pivotal mental states. This comes from our brower and Robin Lester, Carhartt Harris. Um, but they talk about like these moments that these experiences in life, not just specific to psychedelics, but to these really pivotal moments in our life that we have increased neuroplasticity.
So that could be a psychedelic trip that 2 people do together. And now they opened up this pivotal mental state where they're able to connect in a new way. Um, but we also see this with like. Um, people having babies, the beloved one, right? There's many times that people experience these pivotal states where all of a sudden they learn a ton about themselves all at once.
Um, but to take a psychedelic and put it back into your control a little bit more, I think that's a really powerful tool.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah, it's all about the existential meaning making right of that frame. What are we going to make of this time where my reality is shifting, which is also, you know, trauma, right?
A shift of reality and these experiences. But what is the meaning making of it? Right? And I think you could use that same even understanding to those bad or difficult trips, right? Because it's Not within our control. Often what's going to happen in that psychedelic space. You can do so much of the set and the setting and the prep and the prep and the prep.
And then, you know, and you get dropped into this landscape of your world. And I think what's been interesting for me to see too, is just the experience of dosing, right? Where people often think that, Oh, I need this high dose. I need this high dose. I need this high dose. And I'm sure you've experienced this too in your clinical work where we'll be working with a client and we start off at the low handshake and, you know, processing something.
And then we go up into a higher dose in the second time, maybe hoping to explore more trauma, more content. And then the client will say, wow, I didn't feel anything. I don't, I don't know if the drugs even worked or happened. And we clinically know, like we, we gave them actually Higher dose, right? Yeah. And so just even this breakdown here now, I think is important to talk about in terms of this presumption that the higher dose is going to get you there.
Right. I'm curious. I'm sure you already have a million thoughts to share there.
Jordan: Well, and this idea that high dose is what's going to get you to where you need to be. I think it's built in this very Rigid mindset that you have to do hard work in order to get the reward. Then it has to be tough that you have to like go through the fire.
Um, and so much of the work that I'm working with people on when we're doing psychedelic therapy is let yourself relax into it. You already know the answers. Um, we talk about the inner healing intelligence, right? It's about beginning to listen to yourself. Let yourself have fun. I've had clients who have a very fun trip with unicorns and sparkly lizards.
And they're like, well, that was a waste of time. I'm like, but didn't you have fun, like what it was like to really like lean into the fun of that. Maybe that's what you're missing in your day to day life. Right.
Nicole: Yeah. I'm like, hold on, let's slow down. You're telling me that pleasure is a waste of time.
Jordan: Right.
Nicole: Ooh, that sounds like some great content to explore. Right? Hold on, hold on. You know, how deep is capitalism within our own bodies, right? I'm like, I can't create this production. And only if I'm producing am I a valuable and worthy human on this world. Oof. Oof. Right?
Jordan: Well, and you, I think, put this pressure.
Another capitalism, uh, issue in this is that this stuff is very expensive a lot of the time. And so people want to get their money's worth. Right. Um, and it just puts a really unfortunate pressure on these experiences that otherwise are very freeing.
Nicole: Absolutely. And that's why I like to have conversations on a podcast that's free.
Of course, free is relative. I spend many hours a week editing and producing and our time is here, right? But, uh, just to have this out there for people who don't have the money to sit with either of us for this sort of conversation, I think there's a lot of power in creating free educational resources.
So I appreciate your time and energy here. Take care. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that's why this question of intimacy, right? It's not just intimacy with other people. It's intimacy with yourself, right?
Jordan: Absolutely.
Nicole: Yeah. Do you want to say more to that?
Jordan: Well, and just getting to know yourself. I, one of my frameworks is, that I work with in therapy space is internal family systems, which is this idea that we all have different parts of ourselves that show up in different ways.
And that doesn't make us, you know, multiple personality or what's now called disassociative identity disorder. It just makes us human. I have a part that shows up with my parents. I have a part that shows up with my partner. I have a part that shows up at work. I have younger child parts. Um, and so much. I think that psychedelics bring these parts out.
I often say, like, all of a sudden we have a group sharing circle now where everyone gets to talk to each other. Um, 1 of my clients. Would actually in this person was incredibly talented did a lot of like Dungeons and Dragons type of stuff. Uh, so very, um, talented and being able to create voices, but during their sessions, um, would actually voice each of these different parts of have conversations.
And it really felt like we were doing family therapy in those moments, but it was really just getting to know oneself.
Nicole: Totally. Totally. And my only. You know, addition to not only but one of my additions to the discussion of internal families, I think, is how do we conceptualize and I think this is something that specifically comes up with psychedelics often, right?
How do I conceptualize the part of myself that's called internalized homophobia? Yeah, right? Because I don't want to claim that part of me because really it's not a part of me as much as it is the society and yet it is a part of what gets internalized in my head and that judgment, right? But I, I hope that we can create space within that framework to also name the impacts of larger societal implications.
And who wants to you. Identify their internalized racism part right and actually sit with that and and hopefully kick that part out of the family, right?
Jordan: Yeah, or help that part see that what it's doing isn't working, right? Yeah, we often say no bad parts, which gets really tricky when you have an internalized part that is holding one of these isms or You know, it's incredibly common for survivors of abuse to have an internalized part that mirrors their abuser, but be able to say like, Hey, I know you took this on to be able to protect us from this abuse, but now you're causing it.
Right. Have this tough conversation about self sabotage or. about, you know, really needing to do the work to change, right? Recognizing that we're all vulnerable and human and we're not, you know, perfect. All this work that, you know, keeps you from becoming an egomaniac that we started off talking about.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Right. Exactly. So it's like, maybe we need the title with an asterisk of there are no bad parts, but there are parts that have kept you safe. Mm hmm. And there are parts that Are problematic that we do need to, you know, unpack the ways that the, you know, again, internalized homophobia, I would say is a bad part.
It is a result of keeping yourself safe, though, because we're all social creatures. And so maybe in that way, we could say it's not. A bad part because it kept us safe, but you hear the nuance here of me when I'm, I'm sitting in, in my didactics with my supervisors, just going, I can't fully accept this, this premise of the no bad parts when we all have to realize that living under systems.
We internalize those messages and just holding the space to to be critical of those parts as well.
Jordan: I think about it kind of like we've all met that white person who's so apologetic for being white that they end up in inadvertently making it about them once again. Yeah. And I think that's a little bit what we end up doing to ourselves when we start ostracizing these parts that have internalized the racism internalized the homophobia is we're cutting ourselves off from a part of ourselves still.
Right? And the more effective way is to call that person in. Right? Uh, and that's not always possible in the world, but you better make it possible for yourself because you're stuck with yourself.
Nicole: Right.
Jordan: Uh, call them into conversation. Let's, let's work this one through. Let's figure out how we can make, let go of some of those old beliefs.
Mm hmm.
Nicole: Yeah, tricky work. And I think that psychedelics again, neuroplasticity, that opening up that, you know, quieting of the default mode network to maybe have some more curiosity for yourself is a really big part of, of channel, you know, exploring these things. I'm sure you have clients afterwards who sometimes sometimes come out going.
These systems are so wrong. Okay, it's time to build the commune. And then you have to just tell them, you know, we're going to take some time to breathe into this, you know, no immediate changes after the psychedelic, right?
Jordan: Being said, I know more millennials with a commune plan than a retirement plan.
Nicole: That's so true, which I'm excited about. I'm excited about this collective consciousness that is growing to say, Hey, we need to be building community, right? We need to be working together to be in connection and hopefully more connected to nature as well as we, you know, work in that sort of space. I love to hear that the stream is growing.
Jordan: Yeah, absolutely. And one client, I just thinking about this, like idealized, you know, world that we can start to see in psychedelics, um, was very much on board with like this little, like screw capitalism. Like we're all so broken. We're all addicted to our phones. And at the end of the day, I still need to make sure that my son's mittens aren't lost.
Right. And like, if they are, I need to buy a new one. I don't want to participate in consumerism, but there are things I need to still participate in. I think this like juxtaposition, almost like a whiplash between what could be in the reality that we live in with credit scores and racism and these sorts of realities requires some really compassionate work with yourself.
Nicole: Absolutely. Cause we're working within systems and against them at the same time. And I think that's why it's so important in terms of anarchist philosophy, right? It's about dreaming of. The world. And I think that if we took a step back to even just a hundred years ago, there, there's been a lot of improvement.
It's not done. Right. To be very clear, it's not done at all. Yeah. But a year ago, what the anarchists were dreaming of then to what the anarchists are dreaming now of, okay, as we get towards the. End of the whenever, however long that end will be of the Monopoly game, right? We're seeing that. Okay. Someone's got the too expensive.
What is it?
Jordan: Like boardwalk ab,
Nicole: you know, the blues, the blue spaces, right? As a, I think I was looking at some statistic where it was about like, uh, Something almost like 50 percent of the global wealth was owned by the 1 percent global wealth, right? So we're like, okay, so 50 percent the blue spaces, they've, they've got it.
Right. And so what does it look like as we continue to spin around, taking turns on this and spin around and some of us have more money than others in our journeys around, you know, we can afford the hotels, but many of us can't. Right. And so what does it look like as we start to take that look at the game and ask.
What do we want in the future? How do we get there? I think it is a reality of we have to work within the systems and against it at the same time. So yeah, you're going to buy them in because frost. Bite is real and you can't just act like it's not and and how are you gonna have the time to okay? I'm gonna knit my own glove.
I'm gonna do this, right, right, right. Okay, but I'm working 90 hours a week When am I gonna right so mm hmm that compassion for the the yes, and of the experience?
Jordan: Yeah, absolutely. And what's cool is psychedelics help us accept the yes and a lot better Plasticity it helps us accept multiple perspectives, which is why it's so cool in relationships you Because all of a sudden, you can really embody your experience, but also be able to take on a different person's experience as well, with a little bit more ease.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm feeling this call to kind of move into the importance of integration.
Jordan: Absolutely. So integration, I think is so important in my experience. It's usually with a therapist, though. I think lots of ways that people can self integrate as well. Obviously that is a personal choice as well as a financial one, unfortunately.
Um, but to make sure that a person has some time to really make that experience. I often call it like drawing the bridge between like, For ketamine K space and like the rest of the world, it's not that that space is totally lost for you. In fact, integration helps you make it accessible to you even without the drug.
Um, even without whatever it was that put you in that state, I often tell people like whatever that image was, whatever that feeling was, wherever you felt that in your body, use that as your anchor to meditate and go back there when you can. But I also think it's really interesting. That's where you start making the meaning out of it.
And so one of the stories I'm thinking of, this couple did a psilocybin together and they had a conjoined experience, which I am so fascinated by again. dissertation topic someday is what, like what happens when people end up on the same journey and seeing the same things. Um, but then both of these partners, um, said that they both saw this like temptress kind of like deity figure, the spiritual woman right in front of them.
They both agreed where it was, uh, what she looked like. But during integration, one realized that that experience was all about being okay with chaos and like letting things be imperfect. And the other person was all about banishing her and telling her and like setting boundaries for themselves. Um, and I think this plays out so much in like relationships in general is that you have a fight, but it's about two different things for a person.
Um, you have a conjoined experience, but it means something different to each partner. Um, and so integration, I think helps you make that unspoken experience now spoken as something that's meaningful to you.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's so important to stress that we do that in different areas of our lives, right?
I, I think an example for me is going home to the family for holidays, right? Talk about how, again, if relationships are mirrors, they form our sense of self. Then of course we go back to the family. Maybe we get activation of our early childhood patterning. We feel parts of ourselves that, you know, have been dormant for a while, depending on when the last time you saw your family was right.
And so I'm with my therapist, with my friends processing like, Oh, I'm going to go home. I'm journaling. Okay. I'm preparing. Right. Uh, how do I want to show up in that space? You know, and then I'm there and it's, you know, first half's a little easy. Last half's a little hard journey, you know, and afterwards. I talk about that with my friend, right?
Okay. Now I'm processing the experience and what I want to take out of it. I process it with my therapist. I journal, I dance it out. Right. And in every step of that journey of connecting, whether it's on my own to my art or connecting to people or a healer, like a therapist, my existential narrative of meaning making is being shaped.
Okay. Okay. Right. So it's not like a spiritual bypass where I go into my family experience. It's really intense. And then I say, okay, I'm never going to talk about that again. Don't want to even process any of the ways of what that brought up. Uh, goodbye. Right. And so it's that intentional processing of the experience.
Experience and we do that also in beautiful positive ways with great journeys, right? Where you feel connected or you have this really meaningful experience in your life You graduate you have the baby right and you integrate what the new identity will mean to be a parent, right? That's an integrated experience.
And so I think it's sometimes easier to see how we do that in other ways And the same thing with the medicine is we're having this profound experience, but what does it mean to integrate that into your life rather than assuming that the psychedelic is going to have the answers? It's going to be this fix all magic bullet.
And then when people do do that, I don't, I'm sure you've seen this in your clinical work as well. They end up at least, you know, like having these similar trips every time, like confronting the same thing again and again and again. And it's like, okay,
Jordan: medicine really can be persistent. Sometimes
Nicole: sounds like we need to integrate some of the lessons that are coming up here.
Right. Yeah. I'm sure you have many things you want to say to that.
Jordan: Well, I'm, I'm interested. One of the words that you use is like identity, right? And I think that that is what we're talking about is that people's identities are constantly evolving.
Nicole: Oh yeah.
Jordan: You're not a fixed identity. And I think that's one of the harder things is so many people come into a psychedelic session wanting to know their true self.
I want to know who I am. Uh, and I think that's natural because there's so many messages telling us who we are that are not internally based. But in order to really tap into that, in order to really see who you are after this particular trip, after this particular experience, there's this element, I'm curious your thoughts on this, but there's this element of grief.
Of who you were. And I think that is a beautiful element that we're able to acknowledge this person that you were offering gratitude for this person that you were, and also recognize that you're fully stepping into the present moment now. And now, and now, and being able to hold space for that grief. I don't think we grieve very well as a society.
We don't hold space for it. We don't talk about it. Uh, we don't have rituals to help contain the experience. Uh, or we do, they're very corporatized in many ways and to just sit there and have someone bear witness to your grief, I think is so important.
Nicole: Yeah, which is like you said, sometimes so hard to even do for ourselves, right?
Uh, I'm currently in my last elective of my training and it's a class on grief, loss and mourning. So you're, I could run for an hour on this topic. So I'll contain myself. Uh, but yes, you know, there are so many past versions of myself that I've had to let go. Yeah. And to grieve, like you said, I appreciate the grieve now and now and now because time is moving forward.
Right? And we're always in that moment of losing the moment. You and I are sharing this moment now. We will be changed by this conversation in ways and will grieve that past self that maybe, you know, didn't know whatever we're unlocking here in connection. And I think getting people to see that inevitability of change and evolution of self, right, is that embrace of the loss of some sort of.
Simple boxed identity, right? That is not something you're going to find. And the second that you find it, now that you know what that is, it is moving along. Right. So it's just that inevitability of change. But, um, yeah, we as a society don't create space for grief and mourning. And we, as clinicians, not you and I directly, but our field is a part of furthering that problem when we have a diagnosis called prolonged grief disorder, as if we get to decide how much grieving is too much and pathological.
And so, you know, when you get X amount of time to grieve and mourn the loss of a family member before you have to go back to that job on Monday, right? It's a part of the capitalistic structures and it's a part of our own field as gross and sad as that is, you know?
Jordan: And we could probably do a whole podcast just on the things that have been pathologized and put into the DSM.
Nicole: Welcome to my podcast, right? That is a long conversation we're having over here and again, right? Anarchy. What are the ways these power structures are impacting our access to pleasure? And in my opinion, you can't have pleasure without grief. There is no choosing to just stay in the state of happiness.
You have to be connected to all of the emotions and pain is an inevitable part of the human experience. Grief. Sadness loss that is a nevel part of the human experience. And so I think that we have to embrace the reality of both.
Jordan: Absolutely.
Nicole: Yeah. Also a box there that I could get up on. Let's see. Yeah.
And so I think. For me, I've had so many psychedelic experiences that yeah, have brought that pain to the forefront of my experience. I have a trauma background with sex and to be able to have moments of that heightened connection to my body and just to process the fears of Why does it still feel so tense to be in this body?
I'm alone. My set and setting is ideal. I have no one that's going to come into my apartment. I have all this free time and I could still feel this tension in my body. And there was such a pain, you know, to connect with. the realities of that experience, but also such release in that connection. And, you know, something we haven't hit on in this conversation yet is the importance of the body with psychedelics.
Yeah. I'd be curious if you have anything to share in that area.
Jordan: I'm thinking about trauma. Yeah. Thinking about my experience with trauma as well. I'm a survivor of violence. And for a long time, I couldn't go back to the same part of the town where that happened. But so often when it is a physical violence.
The side of the crime is your body, right? And so you can't get away from it. And so people do end up dissociating. I think probably 80 percent of the clients I work with have some sort of head versus body dissociation where they don't go past their neck. They don't let anything really resonate. And the fact of the matter is your body is incredibly wise and is holding that for the moment that you're ready to listen to it.
I took a somatics course one time and the instructor talked about, you know, is it easier to carry a bunch of groceries with a single finger or your entire hand?
And the answer is your entire hand, of course, right? Nobody carries a bunch, you know, 10 bags of groceries with a single finger unless you're doing the finger olympics or whatever.
Nicole: Okay, my climbers out there, hey, that's me. I do climb, so sometimes it's good.
Jordan: Um, for the most of us, it's, it's helps to bring on more of that, but we feel a pain and we isolate it to the extent that all of a sudden now we start to feel illness. And so I think, you know, there's some stories out there are people using psychedelics to heal physical illness.
Um, and while I don't think it's this panacea option for everybody. Actually, I think it can be actually that narrative can be really harmful for chronically ill people. There is some truth to it, and that if we start letting ourselves really feel, if we start letting those boundaries, those gates we've been keeping within the body open to see those different parts of ourselves at the table together, you know, that can be incredibly nourishing and resourceful.
Letting the whole body hold it rather than just your heart, rather than just your head, rather than just your fists that are clenched. Yeah. I think that a lot of people use the word embodied to describe their experience, which is so interesting because primarily in my work is with ketamine. I've worked with a couple other substances, but primarily my work is with ketamine because that is what's legal and it's technically psychedelic, but as a dissociative, meaning that we are disconnecting.
And so I think it's so interesting that a person is able to disconnect. And that that inevitably lets them reconnect and I think part of that is because it lowers the fear responses. Um, it doesn't take the pain away. It doesn't lower your ability to protect yourself, but it lowers that inhibition to fear.
Um, and so if your body is the site of the crime, if your body is the site of the violence. And now you can go back to it because you're not feeling quite as much fear, and you can actually sit with it and mourn with it and love it and offer it the connection that it didn't have, you know, trauma is too much, too fast, too little support.
Well, now you have this big, expansive mindset. You know, you have whoever you've designated to be with you, or maybe it's just yourself. But yourself isn't going to be there with it, you know, and you're able to, the speed is not so much the one you get to control, but you usually do have a little bit of time within that state to kind of process it, especially with medicines, a little bit longer than ketamine, psilocybin, for example, uh, you have some more space to open it up.
I think it's a really beautiful medicine for that trauma work.
Nicole: Right. Absolutely. Which is why I'm thrilled to one day work with MDMA, right. Because of the connection to the body compared to ketamine, right. And the ways that just, you know, experientially, it's a little bit less of that somatic experience and something like MDMA.
So I think just in terms of trauma and embodiment work, there's going to be so much to do there, but also why it's so interesting on ketamine when clients do have really somatic experiences, right. Um, What's coming up there. And I think for me, I also teach yoga. And so I'm starting to like kind of make these connections here with you in this moment.
Just thinking about, you know, I guess I first, I always name this and for the listener who needs to hear it again, right? The tightness, the disconnection, all of that is the wisdom of your body to keep you safe. Such beautiful wisdom to keep you safe. Okay. Right. That's. First and important to say now if we're in a space where we don't need that wisdom anymore.
Okay. And we want to work on letting that go. Just thinking about neuronal pathways again, right? We're going to need to write new connections. Maybe I haven't been able to feel into the tips of my fingers. I feel what it feels like right now. I'm moving my hands right now to. feel what it feels like. Just air passing on the tips of my fingers.
Maybe that's something I haven't thought about a lot, right? So it's not a really walked through neuronal pathway. And I think this is where understanding of yoga starts to come in, right? What does it mean to spend that hour connecting to your body, working on building those neuronal pathways? And so when we do that in yoga, it takes that moment to be.
To draw your attention into the shoulders and say, okay, am I hunching, right? Oh, wow. I'm, I'm actually going to drop that lower. And the amount of times that that's a practice, right, where you have to continually come back like meditation in general to the present moment and say, okay, drop those shoulders.
Oh, I'm doing it again. Oh, capitals. Ah, drop the shoulders. Right. Woo. You know, um, But I think what's unique about psychedelics is that nonspecific amplifier, right? There have been times where I've explored yoga and psychedelics and that connection to the body, that awareness is really heightened. And so it's even easier to notice.
Okay. But coming back to bring that into the ordinary states of consciousness, we're building that template, right? Again, the neuronal pathways, the connection, but it's that integration afterwards. Like we're talking about, right? When am I still sitting down to feel into those fingertips? When am I doing that right?
To build that connection. And again, that's how we're going to have a better sex, right? At the end of the day,
Jordan: just thinking that letting yourself be in your body, let yourself love your body and feel your body. Um, if you're doing psychedelics on your own, like I highly encourage self body exploration.
Pleasure is a beautiful part of this and you get to experience the senses in such a unique way that, you know, whether you're with a partner or you're by yourself. Now, my, my sessions when I facilitate are explicitly non sexual so that I don't create a power dynamic as a facilitator. But I think in self exploration and partner exploration, this can be a really beautiful experience.
beautiful and healing parts, uh, to explore.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And I think we both know that if there's been a lot of trauma, that first time going into the body actually might. Be really intense. You might feel the need to shake, right? Or feel the need to run or punch that pillow or scream into the, like all of those sort of reactions.
We see that with deers, right? And animals after there's been an experience that shaking of the body to let that energy out. And so for the person who starts to connect there, I think, you know, creating some space for the Wisdom of your body and the desires it's feeling. If you're feeling a lot of energy in the feet, maybe that's because running would have been the thing to keep you safe in that moment that you couldn't do.
Right. So, so can we embrace that energy with compassion and maybe find ways to let it release, right?
Jordan: We don't give ourselves the opportunity to complete the cycle right? My old psychiatrist used to say, you know, back in the days of bears and tigers, when we were more immediately, uh, endangered by things that were life threatening, um, that were physically life threatening, we would have to run and then we would get to a safe space and we would have all these endorphins coming pumping in our body, we would actually feel this.
We would have acted on our fight or flight response. And then we would be part of our calm down would be self soothing with those endorphins that came from running. Um, most of our threats in contemporary society are not physical like that. I don't get to run away from all the blue cloths, blue shield claims I've got to submit today.
Right. Uh, I can try, but it's not going to be physically running. Um, so being able to, I hate to say trick your mind, but give your mind an opportunity, your body an opportunity to complete the emotion, um, go on a run, go, uh, shake your body out, dance euphorically, do something that gets those endorphins going, have a good cry, right?
Just really feel into whatever it is you're feeling. And this is one of my issues. I, I love DBT, um, a type of therapy that's really helpful for managing emotions and urges. And at the same time, I think it sometimes teaches us to label the emotion and then move on too quickly. Sure. A lot of my clients who've been in therapy for a long time, they're like, yeah, I felt sad.
And so I use coping skills X, Y, Z, and then I didn't feel sad anymore. I'm like, What happened to that sadness, though? Like, did you explore it? Did you, you know, have some sort of catharsis? Well, no, but then it keeps popping up at randomly. I'm like, that's what's going to happen. It's kind of like the psychedelic trip that keeps giving you the same message.
Uh, eventually we got to start listening to our cues.
Nicole: Yeah. Which is making me go to a much deeper place of the Inability for most of us to listen to the cues when there are active wars of genocide going on, and you're seeing content of that, right? Because of our global connection these days at the internet and go to work, go to work, put on your customer service face, go to work.
Jordan: Have a nice bubble bath at the end of the day, reflect, you know, do a social media cleanse, disconnect. It's totally opposite of the things that we're wired to do.
Nicole: Right. So, I think that's an important part of this too is, yeah, what a dissertation. How much of us are holding that in our bodies because of the systems?
And so holding that and not even realizing, and I think that for me, that's why the work around pleasure. It's such a fun and exciting political door for me, because again, the more that we're connected to a state of pleasure, the more you have to embody pain. Mm hmm. And so, I think getting more connected to the grief of the world.
Is going to be a space where we're not going to just use dbt to process that and let it go. Okay. How do we change the system with that grief? How do we actually put that into action and feel pleasure and pain all at the same time? It's so political for me.
Jordan: I'm thinking about, um, the scene that brought me to tears during the George Floyd uprising.
So I'm originally from Minneapolis. Um, so that hits really close to home, everything that happened. And I remember watching on Unicorn Riot, highly recommend their, um, their, uh, newscasting as an independent source, um, had this stream of a blockade of a bunch of people. And as the police were showing up, it was getting darker.
Some, they broke into dance. Um, and just being able to have this act of resistance, this act of, you're not going to take, you know, you're not going to take away our grief, but you're also not going to take away our joy. And that juxtaposition, you can have more than one feeling at once. But like, let them be there, right?
Nicole: Mm hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. That yes, and, and I think about the responsibility as white people in that space and our privilege to push the boundaries because of the war on drugs and that, you know, the marginalization of that for different people and the privilege we have as white clinicians to actually push Push that edge and make those statements that are maybe a little bit more risky.
Sorry. That are more risky for other groups of people. Right. So I try to hold that to have, of what does it mean to continually use that privilege to push the boundaries of the conversation?
Jordan: Yeah. When I, uh, I'm training other clinicians. Um, I tell them there's no way to be a psychedelic therapist and not be an activist.
Nicole: Yeah.
Jordan: It's just,
Nicole: well, some people do,
Jordan: people do it, but I don't think you're a good psychotherapist. I agree. I agree. You can't be a good psychotherapist. I don't think you can be genuinely paying attention to what the war on drugs is doing to what, you know, racial trauma has done, um, to, you know, um, socioeconomic inequality.
And really be tapped into that as an empathetic clinician and not be in some way, trying to develop community, some sort of resistance method, some sort of, um, advocacy method. Um, there's lots of different ways. You don't need to always be on the front lines protesting, but like. Yeah, I mean, get involved in political work, get involved in policymaking or sign the petitions, you know, there's so many hats that you get to wear in the psychedelic space.
And I encourage everybody to put on the political one, because it's definitely influencing where we're at.
Nicole: Yeah, let's go back to prolonged grief disorder. Yeah. All of this stuff is political, right? I'm the personal is the political, right? I trained, uh, I took extra electives to train in feminist psychotherapy.
So for me, every word that you're saying as a power, you know, as the power in that structure of therapeutic relationship is political. Every single word, whether you say this is normal or this isn't, that is power. And for clinicians to not see or hold that implication, I think is so harmful and so painful to realize that it happens left and right.
But yeah, everything about the psychotherapeutic relationship, even outside of psychedelics is so political. And so I hope people can get to see more of that. And I always talk about on this. space with the listeners to push back on your therapist or leave them when you need to because depending on their training, depending on their perspective, they might be pushing an agenda that is not in alignment with your value systems, right?
And, and it's hard when they have the doctor title or this fancy title of letters to think, Oh, maybe actually my therapist is wrong. Yeah. Right. Listen to that
Jordan: inner healing intelligence too. Right. And it doesn't mean listen to every single thought we have. We have lots of thoughts. Yes. If something deep in your soul is saying it's not resonating with your therapist, break up with them.
Nicole: Yes.
Jordan: And that goes for my clients too. If any of my clients are listening to this, and for whatever reason, we're not resonating, I want you to break up with me. I want people to be able to find a place that sits right in their soul. Cause I think the more people who sit in that soul place or in that like deep knowing space, we're going to have a better world.
Nicole: Absolutely. We certainly are. And I always like to invite people. Yeah. To take a deep breath and really try to listen to that inner wisdom. That's speaking to them, right? A whole nother long hour podcast is how do we differentiate between inner healing, wisdom and trauma? That's a real, that's a real fun.
I've tried to explore that one before and that's a continued conversation, right? Or generalized anxiety. Right, exactly. Right. Trauma in other words, right. You know, relational traumas, et cetera, et cetera, societal. Right. And so I think that's a continued conversation of what does that look like, but processing all of that in your community, listening into podcasts like this and from other, you know, people who have similar value systems, that's how we're all going to collectively change and continue to work within and against these systems.
Jordan: Absolutely. Yeah.
Nicole: I want to hold a little bit of space just to check in with you. I know we talked about so many different great things in terms of psychedelics and healing and the systems, but is there anything else that you're still holding on your heart that maybe you want to share with listeners today?
Jordan: I guess I just wanna reiterate that when I use the term psychedelic, psychedelic literally means mind manifesting if we break down the entomology of it. A lot of times we're talking about the classic psychedelics, which are actual drugs like psilocybin, like LSD, um, but there are lots of other experiences that can be mind manifesting.
I'm thinking about tantra. Right. I'm thinking about you mentioned meditation. I'm thinking about orgasms, right? People will describe seeing bright colors during an orgasm, right? And like, that is a non ordinary state of consciousness. Your body is flooded with different endorphins. For some people, it's not safe, right?
Whether that is past history of addiction or, you know, some, some on, you know, not healthy relationship with substances or non, uh, sub, yeah, substance induced, not earning estates, or you have, like, high blood pressure, for example. Um, but there are lots of different ways to tap into these, these powerful experiences.
There's even some cool stuff happening with VR, which like, I feel a little bit like on the fence about because they're showing some of the same neuroplasticity with like these psychedelic VR experiences. Cool. And at the same time, I'm like, I want realness. I still want, I want us to disconnect from the technology, but maybe this is an okay use of it.
Meditation, right? Deep meditation, um, long distance running. I have a friend of mine who does, um, actually, I think you probably know them, um, but does like ultra marathons and describes like the non ordinary state of consciousness that they get into. With that, and it doesn't have to be, you know, you don't have to go talk to your drug dealer to get these experiences, I guess.
Nicole: Yeah. And for me, I think about my journey out of Christianity to the radical divine slut that I love to play with these days. I think about, yeah, what a reclaiming, it's a fun journey. That's one of my favorite things to do, um, in terms of supporting people out in the world is like reconnecting with that pleasure.
Um, but yeah, even. For me, non-monogamy has been the biggest psychedelic journey of ego death and expansion and learning and joy and messiness. , absolutely. Yeah. That reality shatters and changes, and so for me, when I am thinking about how to support other people who I'm. Supporting through that, right? It is some of the same concepts for me.
Okay. Set and setting. Do we trust this partner that you're doing this climb with? What are your past relationships that are creating the set you're coming into with this? Can we go low and slow, particularly with new relationship energy, which is a drugged up state of being, okay? Absolutely. Low and slow as we adjust to this new reality that you're holding.
And then how are we integrating these meaningful experiences where maybe your. Stretching your range of tolerance for discomfort, at least my personal journey, right, of what it means to see my partner with other people and those sorts of experiences into this new sense of self that is forming every single day.
And how do I continue to integrate that when I look back on my journey and the things that really scared me to climb both physically as a climber and metaphorically in non monogamy. Wow. I'm, I'm actually climbing those today with ease. Whoa. I, I'm not that person anymore that was afraid to climb this.
And so how do I actually let go of that now and continue to integrate this new person? Um, I'm doing it every day, Jordan. I don't know, figuring it out. Yeah.
Jordan: Yeah, I love that example of how you can do the preparation. You can do, you know, bring in the set and setting and then you can integrate these experiences.
I mean, it's very similar to the model for trauma care, right? Something happens, you talk about it, you integrate it, then you do something about it. You trained your behavior.
Nicole: Right.
Jordan: I think it's just a healthy way of approaching life.
Nicole: Totally. That's how I had my first threesome, right? Let's all prep. Let's all talk.
Let's integrate afterwards. And so that way I can process all of the things that came up and be held in community. So for me, yeah, these frameworks, uh, become so parallel to multiple ways of, of living and expansion. Yeah. Well, if it feels good to you, I can guide us towards our closing question.
Jordan: Sounds good.
Nicole: So the one question that I ask every guest on the podcast is, uh, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Jordan: Hmm. I guess the inner conflict,
like having different parts. I'm going back to the parts, like people try to, Put that to the side, tell people like, you know, I know who my true self is, but this idea that you don't have just one true self, you're constantly evolving.
Um, you have different parts that are holding different things. And that's just part of how we've adapted in this kind of world. That's super complex. You compartmentalize. And that's okay. That doesn't mean you're broken in some way. That doesn't mean that you're missing something. Um, it's okay for your self, uh, your selfhood to be an exploration rather than a destination.
Nicole: Right. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm thinking about just that rock climbing metaphor again, right? There are so many ways where I've come up to that wall, whether physically or metaphorically and been thinking, I don't want to do this. No, this looks horrible. This looks so scary. I know. And then I can hear the other part of me that says, ah, but this is how we grow.
You're so much stronger than you think, Nicole, you're going to do great. Right. And we can sit in between those. And then I. Ground myself in the value system of, okay, I, I want to push myself again, not to a point where I'm crying, not to a point where I'm dysregulated. We don't force my body up the wall, right?
But when I'm in my zone of tolerance and that zone of stretching, I say, this is important to me. And I'm going to do it despite those two voices that are going back and forth. I'm going to choose from my value system to step up to the wall and go, yeah. Well, Jordan, it was such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.
Jordan: Thank you so much for including me.
Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. Always a blast. The time flies by. Where do you want to plug for people that want to learn more about your practice and your work to find you?
Jordan: Yeah, uh, so my clinical practice is called willow and leaf counseling that comes from Can I, do I have time to show you just a little story?
Nicole: You have all the time in the world.
Jordan: So I was a little bit of a jerk of a child. Uh, I, I was very teenage in that way. Uh, there was one night that I was staying at a place that was not where I was supposed to be. Um, so we frantically had to walk someplace, um, you know, back to where we were supposed to be a couple of miles walk on the next morning, but there was a big kind of out of the blue tornadoes like storm.
Um, We ended up getting called into a neighbor's house, actually one block from where we were supposed to be because they were concerned for our safety. I mean, every step that we were taking was like five feet because of the winds. And thank God we did get called in because the street that we were supposed to go to, um, had straight line winds that went through.
All these really big, like, oak trees, um, big evergreens, totally ripped up by the roots. Um, but one tree stood, um, lost a few leaves, but it was totally still standing. Uh, and that was this willow tree in the middle of the cul de sac. And to me, I think that was such a testament to having strong roots, but like gentle branches to know what your core values are, but to let the rest kind of flow through.
It's also a point to the idea that you are both like your whole self, but also your part. Um, so that's where willow and leaf counseling comes from. You can search us at willowandleafcounseling. com. Uh, all spelled out all, uh, no punctuation or anything. Uh, we're also on social media. Uh, and then the other thing I'll plug is Kaleidoscope Psychedelics is this nonprofit I'm trying to get started.
We're very infancy, but we are trying to create a scholarship fund for BIPOC, LGBTQ, neurodivergent and chronically ill folks to be able to access, uh, legal psychedelic therapy, um, develop a little bit of data about what works best for these populations and also do some education on diversity in the psychedelic sphere.
Um, so go ahead and find us at, uh, kaleidoscope psychedelics. org, uh, or on social media and, uh, support our work. That'd be great.
Nicole: Oh, such powerful work and a beautiful origin story of meaning, right. For your practice. So thank you for sharing all of that in the work that you're doing to further the movement.
Jordan: Thank you.
Nicole: If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast and head on over to. to modernanarchypodcast. com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
Commenti