Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast, exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole.
On today's episode, we have dominatrix Eva Oh join us for a conversation about the never ending adventure that is connection. Together we talk about doming yourself. The shifting winds of your erotic desires. And learning to lay back and just feel pleasure. Hello dear listener and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.
I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice, supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.
Dear listener, wow, I am just Forever humbled by the power of relationships, truly. The power of relationships to shape your sense of self, to shape your sense of reality. I mean, wow. And I'm delighted to be one of the relationships in your consciousness. Hello, dear listener. I'm so honored to be a part of the relationships in your world.
And yeah, just the magic that that is. Honestly, I am humbled. Bye. relationships. And I am just so honored that my life's work, my career is getting to study relationships and pleasure. I mean, dear listener, we are going to go on a long ride together during this one short lifetime of unpacking these things.
And also just the inherent power dynamics that are a part of relationships. I would say that power dynamics are inherent in all relationships. Some relationships are more structured where the power is consistently in one flow, one direction. Some of them go back and forth, right? But there is always power dynamics in our relationships.
And so what does it mean to be conscious of that? What does it mean to embody your power, to hold it with confidence, the magic of seducing another human being, I mean, woof. And erotic energy is one of the strongest and most unconscious drives, dear listener. There is so much unconscious material going on up there for all of us, right?
And I am just so excited. to know that I will be studying this. The power of eroticism, the power of relationships with you, dear listener, in the space for many years to come. All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, You can explore my offerings and resources at modernanarchypodcast.
com, linked in the show notes below. And I also want to say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long term sustainability of the podcast. keeping this content free and accessible to all people. If you want to join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, then you can head on over to patreon.
com slash modern anarchy podcast, also linked in the show notes below. And with that, dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode. So then the first question I like to ask each guest is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Eva Oh: Well, I guess, trim this as you wish, but I feel like from what I know of what you've created so far, your, your direction is so full of thought and wide perspective that I would hesitate to put myself into a sentence.
And I love that. But for ease, my name is Eva O, and I've been a dominatrix since 2011, and I still love the surprises that the job gives me. And I had no idea that I would be where I am doing what I do today and yesterday,
Nicole: right? Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Eva Oh: Let alone 13 years ago or whatever it was. Yeah.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
And I'm excited to have you on the podcast today and get to pick your brain and that 13 years of experience. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Which is making me think I love on this podcast to hold space for each guest, their own individual story. Could you. Take me back to 13 years ago. What brought you into the profession and where did this start?
Eva Oh: I think the intricacies of it started much earlier. My personality is in space tends to be very assured. Yeah. And I'm able to communicate what it is that I want. I am able to understand what it is that I want. And apparently that This is not common, right? Especially for women. Yes. And, uh, but I didn't understand that in the context of my family who are all very encouraging.
But once I started to step out of that, I understood that. I understood that I needed to shift how that was a little bit and accommodate the world and make them think it was their idea. Otherwise, they would become abrasive towards me. And so, I mean, now I can really say that sentence, but I didn't really understand that for the longest time, which is sort of playing along with the game, trying to be part of a social, cohesive, societal unit.
But me with my opinions, way of being, uh, it seems to inspire people to tell me things like, you'd be a great dominatrix. So I had no clue what this was. I sort of had this idea of this person in leather, perhaps with the whip, but I didn't know what they did with the whip. It was just image, you know, I didn't care.
I was just, they were sort of making jokes about it. And I was just being myself and I didn't think about it. But when I was in, in my first proper contracted job in a corporate environment, prior to that, I got to do a lot of different things on a shorter contract basis. But when I was in my first locked, almost locked in contract, getting paid the most I'd ever been paid.
But it was doing strategic consulting for these fortune 500 companies. It was very bottom dollar and I'm naive idealistic me. It was just, uh, too much for me to handle. I couldn't, I couldn't put my time, my insight and my energy into, uh, lining somebody's pocket. And, um, yeah. And so I thought, I just need to just not do this.
What could I do? And, and because I've done so many things, I just Googled this word that somebody mentioned to me and I thought, why not? It's not like I'' do it forever. Just try. Yeah. Right. And it happened to be in Sydney, which is a decriminalized place for sex work. And so there was a dungeon, they have like health and safety standards, they have tax file number, you know, it was just so easy to access and safe.
And so I followed the little website trail and they were taking interviews and I joined them. And yeah, here I am.
Nicole: Wow. So take me through maybe even that first client. I'm thinking about my first therapy client and me shaking in my boots going, how do I do this?
Eva Oh: You know, I'm curious to know what it was like for you.
Was that during a training thing? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Alone or with somebody?
Nicole: Alone. Yeah. Alone. They just throw you into the room. You know, I, I talked to my supervisor. I was like, okay, well this is the first time. Here we go. We're going to do it. It's not like I haven't, you know, sat alone with a human before, but within the container of the frame of doing that thing.
Yeah. They just, throw you in here.
Eva Oh: I think when it comes to your job and your profession, it's kind of understood the responsibility.
And so you understood the, the weight of that, perhaps, and which is why maybe it made you feel the way it did because in a lot of ways, my work is so unregulated and so unknown. I didn't have, That expectation of myself now, I understand that that space can come with a lot of weight, but at the time it was just like, what's this fancy room and this person asking me to do these weird things that I've never heard of and I'm really enjoying this.
And this is so thrilling and why are they responding in such an overt way? This is wonderful. So it was, um, I, it was my first day. And I had just been shadowing the other mistresses, like, just holding things, just peering into the way they're talking to people. Nothing. I didn't want to do anything on my own.
But at the end of the day, I stayed there for a really long shift. It was dark already. I'd come in the morning, but it was dark by that point. And somebody came in and said, Oh, I heard that there's a new mistress in and I would love to meet them. And, and so I'm like, hi, yes, yes. Nice to meet you. I'm, I'm the new mistress.
I'm a bluff. It's like, I would love to session. And I'm like, no, it's my first, this is not possible. There's nothing. No, this cannot be done. And he's like, no, no, no. I'll. I'll show you what to do. I'll tell you, I'll tell you exactly how I like things. If I go back and I talk to all the other mistresses and they're like, you should do it now, I realized they're probably just sort of like trying to see what the new girl's going to crash.
Nicole: Sure.
Eva Oh: Yeah. I'm like, yeah, I should do it because naive me doesn't realize. People can be manipulative like that. Anyway, I go back to the front room, we sort out, okay, an hour. Let's try it out. He like starts to show me the different things in the space. And I. Strap him down as he mentions to this thing and I start using this longer for the 1st time that I've never ever used before and I'm totally using it in all the wrong places to avoid.
You shouldn't go so hard. You need to warm people up. I didn't know any of that. It's just like are just going for it. And he was in bliss, like, oh, my God. Moaning and there's these mirrors all around and I'm just, it was like exercise and I hate exercise, but now I realized all these endorphins come from all of this action.
It was just more and more and more. And I was so thrilled. I'd never seen myself in these mirrors. That was the same feeling in almost every session for maybe the first year. And then I start to maybe get off of the high, but yeah, it really was. Such a thrill, but you don't have your operating standards, you know?
Nicole: Man, let me tell you, I don't know if there's as much operating standards as you think, you know what I mean? Oh, maybe. You come in thinking they teach you like different orientations and there's just like a human in front of you and you're like, okay, what do I actually do? So I feel you in that like feeling.
Fullness of the world. And immediately when you were talking about the mirrors, my brain was going, yeah, like, what was it like for you to look in the mirror and see yourself doing this thing?
Eva Oh: Yeah. Crazy smile. Like I didn't realize I could smile like that.
Nicole: Yeah. It's so I do work with psychedelics. In therapy, right?
And so they always talk about how like that, you know, you shouldn't look in the mirror because it's really intense to kind of see yourself in that state. But I think just given the societal repression around sex, like you're having this moment and I know kink sex difference, you know, but like the eroticism, I should say like the, um, censorship around eroticism to look into the mirror and having this moment, that's a psychedelic trip.
Just looking in that mirror and seeing yourself and that change of your identity in that moment.
Eva Oh: Yeah, and this at least I don't know how other people approach it, but I also approach it from because it's a performance. Yeah, right. And I have to imagine what I look like from their perspective also. And so it can be useful for me.
But I tend to use mirrors a lot, whether it's a byproduct of my understanding from the dungeon or however, but I tend to like to place even those very new to me, like facing a mirror. When you say this now, I realize how confronting it might be, but I place myself in the frame also.
And so I guess they can see me interacting with them, but they can also see us interacting.
And so I, that tends to be very good for the whole experience. So that's why I keep doing it. But, uh, but yeah, it's interesting to think of it as a. As a head fuck, essentially.
Nicole: Oh, absolutely.
Eva Oh: Which I guess is maybe a larger drive behind everything that I do.
Nicole: Yeah, you want to say more to that?
Eva Oh: Um, well, I think my mind loves to try to find all sorts of corners to understand, explore, be puzzled by.
I just like that in general. And, um, So when it comes to a play space, and when it comes to the BDSM play space, it's like somebody's making an agreement with you to go to those corners a little bit more. And so it's very liberating for me. And I will push as hard as I think I can before they break. To see what those corners feel like for them and for me and for me to watch them go there.
Yes, emotionally sadistic sometimes, but it can also be incredibly liberating because as as we understand if we can go into those parts of ourselves and are no longer scared of them and we can befriend them and even enjoy them, it can sometimes walk away in a better way.
Nicole: Yeah, which, yeah, it makes me think about when we do psychedelics, we do integration work of, you know, you have the experience then afterwards.
And I've joked that I've wanted to do like kink integration for people of like, yeah, send me your clients and then I'll hold that space. What was it like for you to look in the mirror? Right. What was it like? What does that bring up? Like just the, the, you know, the juiciness of being able to have people simmer in what that experience brings up for them, because you're right.
I can imagine that. You probably get a smattering of different people who have maybe never explored any of this to maybe explored a lot of this and you kind of have to feel into kind of yeah, where their edges at and it's going to be different for each person.
Eva Oh: And it doesn't even have to be like, it can be a complete newbie to BDSM, but I think it's more about people's frankness with themselves on themselves than their capacity and experience in kink.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Say more on that. The frankness with themselves.
Eva Oh: Yeah. It's about a resilience of mind. You know, if you can, If somebody comes to me and they're hiding from themselves, I mean, it can be a powerful session, but it can also be a very dangerous session because, uh, often I might be able to see them more than they want to see themselves.
And I'll start to expose things about them. And I'll start to mention these things that I noticed and that they react to that they might be interested in. And if you go too far into that and they're so desperate to hide from it, they might just break, they might hate you. They might do terrible things because they are up against that uncomfortable place that they don't want to go to and so it can be quite dangerous also for me.
Nicole: Yeah.
Eva Oh: People will. Um, like project that onto you as in you're the one that's doing this to me when really it's just you hiding from yourself, but that's happened.
Nicole: Yeah. Do you have a story?
Eva Oh: One learns. And then, uh, and then you have some people who. You know, maybe they've done therapy.
Maybe they come from communicative backgrounds, families there with friends and partners who are more frank with how they are and how they are with each other, and then you can start to really play, you know, because you don't have to pick away and reveal anymore, which I do enjoy, but it's, it can be quite painful for the other people and time consuming for me, but, but once people are kind of Honest with themselves and ready to, you know, just understand that they're not going to be this bit of perfection or this ideal that just know that they're kind of scummy in some corners, you know, then we can start to really just get like messy and be like, yeah, I have a like, kind of like scummy in that way.
Or I am really needy in that way. Let's play with that. Let's like stretch that to the end. And how does that really like feel and look like, and how desperate can we get, you know, it's like, you really start to play with the edges of the emotional possibility. And that's a lot more fun and also a lot more safe for everybody because the people are not going to just suddenly Burst react, or we can talk about it.
Nicole: Yeah. I'm hearing just the, uh, the integration of the psyche, right? From these parts of ourselves that are, you know, taboo shadow, blah, blah, you know, whatever word we want to say about it, but to be able to actually be present with them, play with them, find flow state with them and be in that dynamic energy exchange with you.
Eva Oh: Yeah, that's, that's so much fun. But that's very rare
it's very, very rare. And I do it with myself also.
Nicole: Yeah. Tell me more.
Eva Oh: So, uh, you can get little moments where I've, I find somebody I can play with and I can like push into an idea and we can like laugh about it, you know, like a nice little shared experience.
And then sometimes you've, you see people who've really done the work and then you can just like really go wild, very rare. But because I like it and I want to access it, but I cannot because not everybody wants to play or I want to play with them or play like that. I have a process in myself where I might really tease out an idea.
Of how I feel about something or how much I'm hanging on to something, but what I play with myself, but what if we, what if that was just gone
or what if we just, just went for it and just did that specific thing that you feel deeply uncomfortable about yourself almost, you know, it's good for me. It's like I'm. a really close friend of mine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nicole: Exactly. Constantly looking in that mirror. I'm sure. The self that you see today is radically different than the 13 years ago, looking in that mirror
Eva Oh: in some ways.
Yes. And in other ways, I think my capacity is, um, much wider ranging, but I think that I always say this and people always like, look at me like, but because of the job and everything, but I, I think I'm still, I'm still Deeply naive at heart, you know, and deeply like trusting and excited and just ready to just try.
I think the basis of that hasn't really shifted, but, um, but my ability has improved thankfully. That's a long time to not improve a skill.
Nicole: Yeah. It was so beautiful to hear your joy, right, in the body, the giggles, the embodiment here for you with this profession.
Eva Oh: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, like any profession, you know, you have your moments and sure.
I'm some business gets in the way of just making financial things sit or dealing with, you know, client relations still say crap. But session space and like perfect little session space. Yeah. Is that similar for you? Can you talk about that? Yeah, absolutely. In terms of enjoying the work. Well, like a session space, like when you're doing that time together as opposed to how it has to sit in life.
Like, do you have a preference or is it all one thing?
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was just talking about this with my, uh, one of my partners who was here before I was, I was like, Oh, I'm interviewing a dominatrix and we're just bouncing off ideas about it. It was very fun. Yeah. There's something for me when I'm holding space for a client.
That is a specific energy exchange where. I am holding the container for them to unpack their psyche, their narrative, their experience, and so there's certainly less of sharing of myself. I'm definitely there in terms of the emotional exchange of when they're, you know, being sad, I'm moved by that experience, and maybe crying with them, or, or just being sad.
Feeling the weight of what they're carrying, but I'm not also saying, yeah, and then I had that same experience and this did, so it's definitely a, a held container. I do self disclose at times and I feel like it's helpful, but you know, I really want that space for them to unpack their narrative. And so those skills and that perspective never turns off.
I don't just get to come to my partners and have that part of my psyche removed or my friends, but I. Definitely share more of myself in those spaces with people. And I think I see the fullness in some ways of, of every human's existential life, every human, you, everybody who's listening, right. Has like a full world up there of, of families and relationships and experiences.
And even the words that I'm saying right now have a whole. whole history of meaning making of what these words mean to people. And so, yeah, when I'm snuggling up to my partner in the morning, I'm like, wow, like what a whole universe in this one body that I'm so excited to be snuggling with. So that like therapist perspective is certainly there all the time, but I'm not always holding that energetic space for, um, everybody in the same way.
Eva Oh: Is that a natural thing for you or
Nicole: which part
Eva Oh: to compartmentalize ability or to feel more free when you're with your partner?
Nicole: Well, I will say that I've been doing it for 2 years now and the 1st year I lost my mind because every single conversation I was like, God. Like, what am I saying? I took a class on group psychology and I, it was specifically going to like play parties and then I was like watching people around and I was like watching all of it and I'm like, hmm, hmm
And I was like, God damnit, this has to turn off. Like I can't do this all the time. And so I will say where I'm at with it now, it's much more flexible where I, I I'll see stuff and I'm like, okay, I'm not gonna engage in further conversation with this person about that 'cause I'm not working and this is not my time.
Good luck, you know. So I've, I've learned more so a lot of like boundaries in terms of when people start to go places of how do I close down this conversation? Because
Eva Oh: I'm not on the clock right now.
Nicole: Yeah. And then what does it mean to be on the clock quote unquote for your family? Right. Or like what, right. What does that mean?
Look like when you have these relationships where they, they need. Help in certain ways and like to not be their therapist, but also you have the skills and it's an everyday process. Let me tell you,
Eva Oh: I think anybody who's, uh, even a bit skilled at emotional labor has very hard lessons to learn about, about drawing those limits.
Nicole: Yeah, which makes me curious to like, if you'd be willing to share your own personal like erotic life, you know, what does that look like when you do the same thing? Right? We're talking about my emotional caretaking, but you too must have a complex relationship to the erotic for yourself.
Eva Oh: Yeah. And like, we don't have schools, you know, we don't have, uh, I mean, we have some elders who have been in things, but it's all very anecdotal, you know, one not necessarily studied.
I'm not really sure where to go to sometimes for me to get frameworks for understanding how I could do things better, but it's tough. Yeah. Yeah. And also because. I started working. Yeah, sure. There's a curiosity, but like I needed money, you know, though I just need to survive and, uh, and that didn't actually pay me very well for maybe the first year or two and now I'm stable, but it took a lot of business mind to get to this point.
Sure. My focus has been that, you know, sure, it's been great, a great journey, um, in terms of, uh, how I've grown emotionally, how my emotional and intellectual skills have grown, how my technical ability, it's, it's been wonderful, but. My main objective getting into it and in general is the financial stability of myself and my family, you know, and so with that as a focus, I haven't had time to think about what my self, like what I really wanted side of this context until very recently, like the last like year or so, you know, it's, it's really been about how can I make my work better?
Yeah. Until, until I felt a little bit more financial room last year. And I thought, okay, I'm going to start dating. I've had relationships throughout, but I didn't realize that I was operating in the workspace in my personal life until I could really have some financial freedom and then freedom for me.
Yeah. So last year I started dating. And the erotic self there, it's very similar in some ways in that I do still feed off of somebody's perception of me. Yeah. And that's such a huge thing of the job. I do get turned on by my job from that perspective. It doesn't matter. Like if they're absolutely not attractive to me or however, if they are drawn to the experience and I can see that through their skin, then I'm like, I'm really into it, you know?
And there's still an aspect of that with, with my personal life, but actually I'm much more lazy. I like it.
Nicole: Yeah.
Eva Oh: I've learned to be lazy. I've learned to, you know, just not do very much and just to offer them my feet to let them do their thing, not to be too active. And I don't think that I'm I want to take a submissive role.
I'm totally open to what that feels like, but it's very unfamiliar to me. But I've definitely learned to have smaller actions, to not think of creating like this elaborate mind. Or how things are in a room. I'm just really just like, I'm going to lie that and you're going to do stuff.
Nicole: And you deserve that. Right? Yeah.
Eva Oh: Long time.
Yeah. So it's been fun, but, um, I don't know where it's going to go. I'm sure it will shift.
Nicole: Yeah, exactly. That's what I was imagining maybe would be like the erotic space for you, given so much of the ways you hold the container to have yourself held and not have to do as much as I'm, yeah, like you said, the eroticism of knowing their image of you and the energy exchange that that is, I'm sure you're, you're doing, I know that you're doing so much cognitive work up there, thinking about that, thinking, thinking, thinking that I could imagine letting go.
To not have to be in that space is almost, you know, that, that balance and that erotic charge on the other side.
Eva Oh: I think it's been a long time that I've just laid back and felt pleasure, you know, rather than having to direct it to make it happen. Yeah. Now I'm, I've become very like picky. With, I used to be, I used to think, oh, it doesn't matter what people look like or what people are like, I can just interact with them.
It's fine. It's because I was doing everything to make it happen. Right? I'm really just like, why am I just not interested? It's like, oh, because I need them to do something now.
So it's, it's funny how it took this long, but I understand why. Yeah. And we'll see what else I'll be doing like in two years, you know, maybe I'll be one of those huge cruises to Jamaica. That's like those big sex parties that I think that I would hate, but maybe I'll be, maybe I'll be a swinger.
Nicole: Totally. I mean, that's what I hear again and again from everybody, right?
It's like, just when you think you know what it is that gets your socks off, it's like, damn, it just, Floats away in the wind. And, you know, I came from a very, uh, puritanical Christian society. Like I wore a purity ring. I did the whole thing, you know? So for me, some of my first like deep eroticism BDSM play was just like the dirty slut whore narrative.
And what that did for me as someone with all of that shame and repression and, you know, doing this podcast space, having so many conversations and the way that that almost like. You know, took away the charge from it as I've let go of the shame. And now it's not as that exciting thing anymore. And it's like, damn, just when you think you've got, you know, the thing that does it, it just bloats away and I'm like, okay,
Eva Oh: well, I guess that means you're just being very, um, dynamic with your life, so it depends what you want.
Right. So I guess you continue to be this beautifully dynamically engaged. Or you can just stick your feet in the mud. Right. What do you want to do? I suppose, fine.
Nicole: Right, yeah, exactly. I know.
Eva Oh: But I yeah, know where that, that is, perhaps.
Nicole: Right. Which I think then is the positive frame, in terms of, um, rather than like, oh, I'm so confused, it's so confusing.
that, oh, wow, I have a whole lifetime to explore my psyche, to explore my body, to explore energy exchange with other people. Whoa. Like it isn't going to be static. I'm always going to be exploring this and finding new things and what joy.
Eva Oh: Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah.
Eva Oh: So what do you think's next?
Nicole: Man, I started, I'm, I want to be able to orgasm without being touched, you know,
Eva Oh: Okay.
Okay. Like even yourself.
Nicole: Yeah. Part of me just thinks it's like, how much time could I get away from specifically therapy brain, which is like deep thinking, deep thinking to actually just feel my body and work on that deeper connection to my breath. I think that's, but that takes intentional meditation and other things.
A lot of work. Exactly. I need to sit down and stop actually doing my job to do this other thing.
Eva Oh: I need to, I need to go on a small break for about seven months I'm working on no contact orgasms,
Nicole: which I call prayer to the divine, you know, which is maybe my own reclaiming of Christianity ship, but I'm like, I need to pray for 10 minutes and just
Eva Oh: getting to a format, you know, in another format.
That's potentially more pleasure filled, which is wonderful. I don't know what mine is though. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Um, I feel a little like also I just, I just left or he just left like my main client. Yeah. And. I have clients who are, I mean, I choose them because they fit enough, but I haven't chosen them because they fit with me.
You know, they fit for the purpose as they should be. And it's only recently recently happened. I think the realization of it only maybe settled in yesterday or the day before. And immediately when that happened, there was this, It literally felt like a weight gone. I've never had that before. Like, but like the literal feeling like, and I felt nicer, like kinder, like I could be kinder, like I have more space for that.
And I'm wondering what that's going to do to my erotic exploration. Cause I, degradation, really harsh. Like unraveling. I don't know whether I have that charge at the moment.
Maybe I'll start like lactating.
Nicole: Hold them close. I want you to feel good. You're so beautiful.
Eva Oh: Yeah. But if you told me that like last month and I'd be like ew..
Nicole: I know. Oh, I know. Exactly.
Eva Oh: Yeah. I mean, if somebody else doing it cool, but like for me, yeah. So yeah, just so surprising. It's it's wonderful. I like it, but it can also probably be exhausting for people to try to keep up with your dating profiles.
Nicole: Exactly. Yes. Absolutely. We got to check in often. Yeah. And maybe even given the ways that you've been doing so much work, so much business, so much all of this to explore dating, right?
I'm curious. There's so much erotic charge thinking about, you know, when I was saying just the existential narratives of. Of knowing, you know, when you're in partnership that you're building that narrative together and that story as you meld, you know, your, your time and energy to actually share space together.
And, and for me, that's its own erotic charge as well. So maybe that is part of, like, the next space.
Eva Oh: Interesting to think about also, because I think that. You know, I was, I was talking about how I would always push and I would be the one making sure a pleasure would happen and I would be the one I feel like I've been leading and the job has been an opportunity for me to be able to do that.
Good skill set, whatever, but. I've also been running my relationships, you know, and so I'm now open to what you just said. I haven't really thought about it in that kind of frame, but letting it be its own energetic thing that is growing that I don't push. Sure. Interesting experiment. I will call you when I'm crying about it.
Nicole: Yeah, you can text me.
Oh, my goodness. Well, it's so wild because like, we are, you know, you were looking into the mirror of that moment, right? Seeing yourself, but our relationships are mirrors. And so we give off something and quite literally, like, right now in this moment, I can't see you. I can't see myself.
I can't see my face because I turn that off in Zoom because that drives me crazy. And so when I am emoting, I am looking to you as my mirror, right? And so if you start to smile with me, I feel good about what I'm doing. If you look at me sternly, I'll be like, Oh God, what am I doing? You know, you see this with babies, right?
They look to their parents to emote with them. And so, yeah, just thinking about partnerships when we're in that deep space, so much of our sense of self ends up going away. Being created through that experience and, and just the magical unpredictable nature that that is. I mean, I don't know. I practice non monogamy.
And so just even to see my self mirrored through different relationships. Whoa, whoa, yeah.
Eva Oh: Would you be interested to, um, say if that self looks very different or a little bit different or it depends.
Nicole: Yeah. I mean, I've been trying to get more and more integrated But what I found is that you, you know, find one person who brings out sides of yourself that are different and you're like, oh, yeah These are pretty Parts of myself too.
Um, but yeah, they're all very different people and I'm sure people, you know, even dear listener, your friends, right? You have some friends that like to do this activity. Some friends that like to do this and how you find yourself in the center of that. And then particularly when we end up having sex with multiple people or play all of these different things.
Yeah. I mean, not all of my people want to do the same things. And so then, yeah, I do see parts of myself reflected in different spaces.
Eva Oh: Yeah, I've been running my relationships. I keep using that phrase.
Nicole: Yeah, there it is.
Eva Oh: Yeah. Running my business slash relationships. No, it's my, uh, relationships in a, it's a, it's always very service based, like they are in service to me.
They will do things for me. They are. Available to me.
Nicole: Yeah,
Eva Oh: that is kind of the dynamic that I'm very used to now.
Nicole: Sure.
Eva Oh: I'm wondering if that's going to shift now that I maybe feel a little bit looser.
Nicole: Yeah, like giving service to someone in a less structured container.
Eva Oh: I'm also quite good at the emotional labor.
That has always been my thing that I would contribute. And I think my way of trying to make up for how much I probably have overdone it in the past is to make sure that they're doing service for me. I'm kind of controlling it in that way. It's a format that seems to work, but, um. I don't know. We'll see.
Nicole: Hey, I mean, I, I'm wondering the same damn thing sometimes. Right. Cause like specifically in my job, I study so much relationships that then I'm like, is it ethical to have a relationship with someone who doesn't have the same level of awareness? Like, is that weird? Like, Oh, like that's weird. And you know, and then I talk about that in your, in your field.
I had something I think about often, honestly, because, because of course you cannot date your clients and the, you know, you're setting up in a very specific container like that ethically is very clear, but yeah. What does the conversation look like of, Oh, under capitalism, people are stuck in certain jobs where they never spend the amount of time that I'm spending thinking about emotional insight.
And so, yeah, when I connect with someone, I might see things immediately that they don't. And then like, yeah, is that even. ethical because there's an inherent power dynamic. But I mean, this is where when I'm holding space for them, they're like, Oh, I want to cook you dinner and other stuff. I'm like, cool, great.
This, this feels like a fair exchange, I guess. Like, man, I don't know. I don't have an answer for that one.
Eva Oh: But like, do all the psychologists like get together and be like, yeah. And then they did this thing. And I knew that they were doing this thing as you do too. But then we did that thing. But of course, because I wanted that to happen.
Do these things happen?
Nicole: Yeah, I mean, I process my relationships with my psychologist friends and we're like, Oh, that's that acting up. Yeah, I know. I know. I know. You know, but I have no idea what the ethical nature is of any of this. Truly. It's way too complex, but it is a question under capitalism, right?
Like when, when people are locked to survive in this structure, you know, and I think it's also important to say that we don't know everything as psychologists, right? We're just like, you know, we're just therapists who are learning, you know, Exploring, but under capitalism, there is a real reality that if you're working a service job, all of that time and energy is spent in that service versus I'm sitting here in the complexities of this and that creates a very inherent power dynamic that I feel rather uncomfortable about.
And I'm only just starting this job, so I have no idea, like 20 years into it, wait,
Eva Oh: see the potential manipulation in 10 years? , yes, eh, you can come talk to the sex workers. We have a.
Nicole: Exactly. I can imagine, right? Like you see stuff, like if you're, you know, got, you would have connected with me or anybody earlier in my life where sex was so repressed, you would see so much of my psyche that I would have no idea about.
Eva Oh: Well, not only that, I mean, it's just like very basic human interaction stuff too, not even in terms of sexuality, you know, like how people come to you with their stories and their woes and their family stories and however, and they think of you on a very personal level, even though for you, it's a professional level mixing a little bit with the personal.
And so you just see these people and these patterns again and again and again, and like you, we don't. In order to survive the job, you don't really give out yourself, you know, cause you're seeing like five, eight people a day. It's like, you can't give that. But, but yeah, you just start to see patterns of people and you start to know what little thing that you say about something will work or that won't work.
And. It's the same sort of advantage. Obviously, it's not going to be on the same level is if you are so informed by the study of what you get to be informed by. But it's still it's still higher than average knowledge. Yes. In potential manipulation. Yes.
And you've really got to have. My father, um, my original father was a barrister and even though he didn't practice so much, he managed to just like swindle his way into so many random boards and it was like ridiculous to watch. Thankfully, I didn't have much to do with him and my current father is so much sweeter.
I sometimes feel like I can feel his mind in me, but thank God I have the value set of my family. Otherwise, I would be the biggest asshole. So I guess it's the same for the job. You know, it's like you, you get all of these potential skills, this knowledge, and I guess it depends on your value set as to whether you're going to completely ruin somebody's life and use them or not.
Yeah,
Nicole: yeah, absolutely. And I'm sure maybe that ties into those feelings around performance. Uh, which part? Which part? Talking about the work being a performance, right? Like the, I'm, I'm curious how you conceptualize that. Knowing that you do have all this power and, and harnessing it for good, but then it also being a performance aspect.
How does that all tie in for you?
Eva Oh: A lot going on, isn't it? I guess that's why I keep doing it.
Nicole: Oh, hey, me too. I love the work, you know, like there's so much relationally going on to play with. Yeah.
Eva Oh: Keeps me occupied. Yeah. Otherwise, I'd probably get in more trouble. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nicole: I'm thinking even to like within my frameworks of thought, I studied like feminist psychology and they would talk about being authentic.
Right. So maybe even. Curious reframes here, performance versus authenticity. So I try to think about coming into the space authentically. And I remember going through school wondering, okay, what is authenticity when you say you have a client who's been saying the same story again and again, and you're like, God, I'm just frustrated that you won't make this change.
And like, it's so annoying to hear you say this again and again. You don't say that, right? So then I was like, what does it mean to be authentic but not share the full experience? And my professor kind of framed it through this lens of authenticity being the choice, right? I'm going to choose in this moment to show up in a loving, kind way for this person, which is to hold that back.
And so I do try to think about that in all of my relationships, even my romantic sexual relationships of I might be having these. thoughts going on, but I'm gonna make the choice of what's the best thing to say for this person, and that's not me being inauthentic or performing, it's that my authenticity comes through the choice.
Eva Oh: Okay. All right. I mean, that's a nice way of settling it for yourself for sure. Yeah.
Nicole: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Cause you don't have to say all the bad stuff.
Eva Oh: But, uh, but I, I get how that's a very useful framework. I'm, I don't know whether I could, I guess you could train yourself. Like I could train myself to think of it that way, but I, I'm a little bit more reactive than that.
Yeah. Yeah, and I guess also I'm not working within a framework where I have to care. Yeah. Um, uh, it's helpful for the job if you do, and it's, um, helpful for continued income if you do, but is it helpful for my sanity? I think is the question that I. Then I asked myself more better for worse. Could I say, yeah, I don't know.
Yeah. I mean, but that's interesting. I'm going to be thinking about that. I don't know how I could apply that potentially, but at the moment where my mind goes is more, you've said this this many times, I'm going to tell you exactly what I think of you. And if you break, I don't care because I never have to hear about it again.
That's kind of where I go, but also I think there's something in the, in the fact that people have agreed to come into a power dynamic. Yes. That makes that brutal honesty a little bit softer
sometimes. Yeah.
Nicole: Because that's what they want.
Eva Oh: Yeah. So I guess that's why I gravitated towards this also because I don't know how to do those nice, I guess.
Societally friendly, uh, leaps of thoughts. Right.
Nicole: Yeah, that is drastically where we differ because that's what someone wants and I'm supposed to be the like soft guy, like, you know, like, which is why, okay, yeah, see, we were talking about my own play, right? Like for myself, it's really hard to fathom being degrading, like really hard because I think my brain is so trained in this, like loving kindness, loving kindness, right?
So to play on the other side almost got, it just feels like. Like that voice is not even there to be like that. I didn't see, I just like, Is it of interest in any way? Oh, totally. I've tried gently, you know, cause, cause again, integration, right? Integration. When someone's consensually asking to go to that space, hell yeah, let's go to that space.
And then I'll snuggle you afterwards and hold you and give you a kiss, right? Like let's integrate all of these sides of our psyche so that I can find balance. Cause I think I am. So in the, you know, the loving kindness, which I'm still there, but to be able to play in the other side, I think that is something for me that I would like to stretch into because all my day, I'm holding that love that to give the, the other side of love through being degrading, I think would be really fun and a good balance for me personally.
Eva Oh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I also get the sense that you'd be very good at it.
Because a lot of it is about noticing things. Yeah, you don't even need to add very much. I think people give enough material. Say more. I'd love to learn from your brain, your wisdom. When you were talking about how you wanted to give somebody what it is that they're asking for and you can cuddle them after.
I guess there are gradations of, uh, uh, the ethics here of what's possible, but I kind of feel that it's my skill really developed from a frustration. Yeah. And from an inability to express what I was really thinking about the world around me and because primarily a lot of my clients were men and still are.
Um, but we're going to talk about an earlier time. We're men. It was easier for me because all of the frustrations were about patriarchal. And so I would pick out these things about how they were and their place in the world and their unseen privilege and just like spit it at them. And it was like, Even the fodder, you know, and it just taught me to just like, notice these things and just pick them up about people.
When I play with women, it's harder for me because I don't have that inherent material and I have too much of a shared experience and an empathy for that experience that I don't want to go there. Um, unless I see somebody really hungering for it
and I, I'm such a sucker for the hunger that I might start just feeding into just describing what's happening between us in a nastier way.
And that seems to be enough.
Nicole: Yeah.
Eva Oh: Yeah. Uh, so I think that sometimes Playing with people that you don't really like is what can teach you about your capacity. It's that direction.
Nicole: It's validating to hear that because I've definitely felt that difference in terms of like the gender dynamics of privilege and power and how it's much easier to give that space to someone who has it.
And so, yes, I've definitely been in that space too. And I, there's definitely been fantasy worlds of myself where I'm like, what if I could do psychology? And play like this and like, I know I've gotten off on that fantasy a handful of times, but then I'm just scared that it would then become the job. And then like, how much of that would be then my psyche, like you like holding so much that like, God, what kind of submission restraint bondage would I need to fucking let go?
You know, like it's a dream. It is a dream. I'm not going to lie. I think that. Play therapy, right? We do play therapy with kids. Like what is play therapy with adults with kink and BDSM? Eh, you want to write the, uh, you know, the training with me? I mean, I'm fascinated.
Eva Oh: I'm available to chat with you. You have my Zoom number or whatever it is.
Nicole: Totally. You know what I mean? Cause there's a lot there.
Eva Oh: Yeah, I live in the lived experience too much to sit down and write the complexities of this. I'm writing a memoir at the moment, but it's pretty shallow because I want people to read it.
Nicole: Fair.
Eva Oh: Yeah. Um, I'm almost done. It just took me six years, but anyway, um, but, but yeah, but yeah, it's a real honor to be able to step into such a playful space with Not yet, like, fully formed, but like, adult minds, like, still forming minds.
It's really, it's It's electric. There's nothing like it. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. There's nothing like it. But like you say, when you are the kind of person that thinks and interacts with life and its corners and likes it, it can become very complicated.
Nicole: Yep. .
Eva Oh: Yeah. But that's like what I also said. I, I need the stimulation and I need the challenge and I think I found my sweet spot even though it can come with bullshit.
Also my own and other people.
Nicole: Yeah, but it's different. Every day is different every single day. You might see the same pattern. Sure, sure, sure, sure. But the actual energetic exchange that moment, you know, like just the complexity of your work. I'm sure it's it's there's patterns, but still it's so novel each time that you're stepping into that moment of presence with another human.
Eva Oh: Yeah, and to answer your your thought about what would it take to help you find that point of submission? Like how many restraints? A lot. For me, it took COVID, not being able to see my family for two years and a divorce.
Nicole: Yeah. That will hit you like a whammy. I can imagine.
Eva Oh: I was so lost, but I was just off with the wind.
And yeah. And I, um, started taking mushrooms. Sure. Yeah. And that was like a perfect point for it too, because we weren't rigid. Oh, I wasn't as rigid anymore. And so it was like a, a really good spot to it. And so I guess it's not like necessarily only submission in, uh, in a sexual sense, but, uh, yeah. It's all interconnected in terms of how, how safe or how lost you might feel and ready to be held.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Eva Oh: I think these go through peaks and troughs and so I don't know what my next peak or trough is. And I hope they're the same thing.
Nicole: Right. I'm, I'm curious. I'd love to hold space for you and you. unfolding your narrative right now in our conversation. Um, any takeaways from that significant period of the divorce, the COVID, the no family and the psychedelics, you know, in this moment here, like what was the big takeaway for you?
Eva Oh: Well, my family are so valuable to me. Um, I always knew that, but I think I didn't realize how lost I would be without being able to see them because even though we live very far away from each other, the fact that I couldn't see, like they closed the borders to my country essentially, and they couldn't even let nationals in.
And so, um, just that I couldn't access them and there was no knowing when that could happen. It was just so untethering. And I didn't realize that that would be. The case. And so it was a good like trial run as before they go, go, I'm going to now I know, get a dog, just get a dog or to
have something to like, love you unconditionally and look at you. One of those pathetic people in the end.
Nicole: Hey, I'm with you ay hey, I, when my cat passes, I'm getting a kitten immediately. I'm not processing any of that. I refuse. Next. My heart. Too soft, too soft.
Eva Oh: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I'm sure there are many others, but that was probably the largest thing.
And now, uh, and, uh, like I used to. Now I call them to ask, uh, things more than I used to, so that was, it's nice to have learned to lean on them more, you know, things that I don't really, like, they're not that important. Like, I can't remember what choice I was making. It was just between two objects or something.
And I'm like, well, what do you think I should get? I'm not really sure. Great. They'll pick up at five in the morning.
Nicole: Yeah. But the joy that they know your story, right? Like you're letting them in. Maybe we don't need them. You know, we can use words like, we can use words like interdependent, right? Rather than codependent.
And in that you're like pulling them in. And, you know, There's so much love in that and, and hey, I'm deciding between these, like, I want to hear your perspective, like come into this moment with me and share, share this moment together.
Eva Oh: Yeah. And if I like really put the energy in, I'm sure I could make a decision, but I kind of feel like I just want to release and not do that energy.
And so I guess that is like a parallel of what else could be possible. Yeah, in terms of relationship or in terms of erotic interaction. So I guess that's a learning, like, how do I create that interdependence and just release into it that responsibility, but then you have to trust somebody, like how much I trust my parents.
Nicole: Right. I'm already hearing in my head, like free fall, right. To actually let go and let that happen. Free falling. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Eva Oh: Absolutely.
Nicole: Yeah.
Eva Oh: Well, I guess it can be segmented. Like when I, when I'm telling people about when people ask, Oh, how do you, how do you even learn how to, like, ask for what you want or play in a space of power dynamics and like, just start small, you know, just do it for 5 minutes over breakfast.
It doesn't have to be a charged. Like context. Right. Yeah. Over the next five minutes, I'm going to tell you exactly how much sugar to put in that coffee. And it doesn't matter what I say, you're just going to keep doing it. Yeah. So I guess this needs to be something that I can also do for myself.
Nicole: Yeah. I'm thinking about not getting to see your family too, right, and all the complexities of that, right? If we think about relationships as mirrors, you. you were missing a significant mirror to yourself and the ways that that can affect how we feel about ourselves and our day to day. I mean, this is why when people go home for the holidays, they're like, wow, like I regressed hard.
It's like, yeah, your mirrors changed my friend, you know, like. Yeah,
Eva Oh: I'm very lucky that they're the most easygoing, um, people around, like, uh, I, I guess it's from sheer fact of knowing each other for so long, but also just, uh, so, uh, kind and like, um, perceptive. Yeah, so I think, um. Yeah. Maybe it's just being more mindful of gravitating towards those types of entities.
Yeah. Or more relaxed and trusting bonds.
Nicole: Yeah. I'm really excited for you to see where that journey takes you.
Eva Oh: Oh, look at that. Walked away with some learnings. Yeah.
Nicole: Me too. That's when it's a joy. Yeah. Yes. And I'm looking to, I think, I also just want to name the Power when you were talking about playing with, you know, men who have experienced privilege and had that, you know, um, experience and being able to like channel that anger and frustration in that moment, uh, in a consensual power dynamic where that's what they're wanting.
Right. You know, that's the huge difference you and I know that, but God, I've sometimes feel the need to just like, say it to other people. Like, this is all consensual folks like Jesus, but, um, just the emotional maturity. To do that with the people in your life. And, you know, when I've been coming through non monogamy, there's been a lot of insecurity to unpack a lot of jealousy to unpack and being able to say like, Hey, I want to do this cuckolding scene.
I know it's coming from a space of insecurity and tenderness around our dynamics into my metamore. Right? Like I would love for you to watch this. Does that sound exciting to you? Sure. Cool. Great. Now we're going to play with this tender charge of our dynamic rather than me making side comments, blah, blah, blah, making little like, like to actually have the insight that I am having this emotional experience and tenderness and I would like to play with it if you are on board.
Ooh, that's so mature.
Eva Oh: That's a, yeah, it's a lot of, um, being kind and clear to ourselves in order that we can have that awareness of ourselves and then the courage, or at least the trust to be able to say that and understand that no matter the consequence, we will walk away with everything that we are. I think that's a lot of, it's a process that people are not familiar with.
Sadly, everybody would be having a lot more fun if they were. Right? Yeah. Excellent. So, uh, how did the Kakolik scene go?
Nicole: It was great. We talked before and after, you know, which, which ultimately ends up taking up off the charge, you know, cause now we're even closer, which is, but that's the fun of it, right?
To be able to have that space where you're like, I have this energy and we talk about it beforehand. Everyone checks in. in. We talk about it afterwards and yeah, now it's not as exciting because it's less like, there's less jealousy going on. But like to be able to actually like name that and have that there.
I mean, I think that you're right though. It takes a lot of communication, a lot of emotional insight, a lot of things that under capitalism, again, when we're having to work these other jobs, these are not skills that we are able to really spend time investing in.
Eva Oh: Yeah, like, I was poor for the longest time just so that I would sit alone and think of these things.
So, you know, you make your choices.
Nicole: Right. Starve or You don't even want to know my student loan. You don't even, you don't even want to know. I'm a very expensive sports car. Vroom vroom. It's really, really fancy. It makes a damn good podcast though, shit, right?
Eva Oh: Yeah. I'm so impressed with what you've done with the podcast.
Also, like you have so many really interesting conversations. It's really testament to your mind. It's really lovely. So thank you for adding me to it, to that also.
Nicole: Yeah. And thank you for shaping mine. Right. I get shaped by all these different relationships. I'll certainly take away the pieces from our conversation into the future.
Eva Oh: Maybe you need to combine the religious iconography and the cuckolding. No, maybe that then a card back a
Nicole: divine sexuality. I do work with clients in that space. That is 100 percent my like joy space to work with people and reclaiming and getting to this, this level of play with their dynamics. It's my joy and I hope to spend truly the rest of my life in that
space.
Eva Oh: So divine sexuality, how does that meet with, um, religious iconography? Does it? Um
Or is it more spirituality?
Nicole: I think it's more spirituality for me trying to get out of the structures, but I just think that in a lot of, um, religious spaces, we have these feelings of, of, you know, the spirit taking over, um, flow state, that feeling in the body, the connection with community and.
There are a lot of other ways to experience that through pleasure, particularly through eroticism, right? Talk about life force energy. You know, I haven't even studied anything of the tantric line I haven't even gone in yet, you know, I'm in, I'm in school. But like, just thinking about those sorts of lineages and life force energy, I think that in our lifetime to be able to be with another person and explore connection and the pleasure that is capable within our bodies, I don't know what's more divine than that.
Right. And the centuries of shame and repression, I just take a deep frustration to the ways that it's disconnected us from truly embodying more pleasure. So I, I find that spiritual and, and it's definitely comes from my space of, you know, the pain that it brought me at the beginning, but now to be here and to advocate for that, I mean, I, I cry about the journey that, you know, hearing listeners.
Just tell me how much these podcasts have changed their life and their experiences to play like I could die now pretty happy You know,
Eva Oh: that's great. Yeah That's a very incredible place to be in in one's life also To understand how much of an impact you have already contributed. Yeah. Fantastic! Thank you!
I was more thinking like, alright, so let's all go to a church, kind of a thing, you know. And I'm the priest. But, you know, yours is much, uh, much sweeter.
Nicole: Hey, I mean, one of the play spaces I went to was called Temple, which was Yeah.
Eva Oh: I mean, a lot of the tantric things, they're called temples, right?
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yep.
Eva Oh: Yeah, there was, um, so I, I lived in Bali for a while and, uh, it was more a base than anything and, but then I was there during COVID and so I started to actually meet people because usually I was just traveling to work and then coming back and just resting. And a lot of people there are in the sacred sexuality space, the tantric sort of whatever space, and I had no knowledge of it at all.
And I, I don't know, but I never managed to connect with the information. Like I went to temple nights and because I know how to drop into space and, you know, and like, just make something like work, there's a performative aspect to it and, or just go into that part of myself. It's not difficult for me. And so I would step into it, but I wouldn't step out of it feeling like I had gained anything or that it was particularly nourishing.
Am I just not the target demographic or like, what am I not understand? Like, there's something about it that's just not, um, understood by me, I guess.
Nicole: Yeah.
Eva Oh: I mean, I don't know what's happening there because it seems to be such a powerful thing for so many people.
Nicole: Yeah. Well, so is Christianity. So I don't know.
You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. You know what I mean? So is Mormonism. So there's lots of stuff. So I don't know.
Eva Oh: Okay. All right. Okay. So. Yeah, I guess so. Whatever. And it is a very religious experience. I guess the tantric community.
Nicole: Yeah.
Eva Oh: At least the ones that I was seeing. Maybe I don't work very well within that framework also.
So maybe I'm reacting to many different things.
Nicole: Yeah. And sometimes, sometimes it's really hard when there's like, There's, yeah, depending on where you're at, right, we can say, it's kind of like kink, you know, you say kink and it's like, what do you mean, you know, like Tantra, you know, I, there's sometimes very gendered dynamics around it that are very like masculine femme, masculine femme that are very strict that I really don't appreciate and, um, they're even like the practice of like semen retention, recycling energy, right?
Like, What an interesting, I was, so I listened to a lot of Tantra podcasts and try to learn from them, you know, and I, I sometimes like bite my tongue at moments, but like, I'm like, cool, what can I learn from this? But yeah, like, just like semen retention. And he was just talking about how, like. Um, he's like, yeah, I don't, I don't want to have the ejaculation cause it releases my energy.
And then for the rest of the day, like I can't really function and evolutionarily like that's, you know, that means that we go to sleep and, and all of these things. And so I just retain it, which like, cool. Glad it works for you. Right. But again, like Christianity works for people, Mormonism works for people.
So who knows existentially where that's resonating and what sort of frame that's putting on their existence of, um, I work in this way of energy exchange and all that sort of stuff. I do love the, um, the intimacy of some of it, you know, like even the tantric practices of the hand on the heart and your eye gazing and God, the amount of people that can't even have sex without looking into the eyes of the other person.
I mean, shit, like for someone that's revolutionary. And maybe for you, that's like, I looked in the mirror 17 years ago and saw this stuff, you know what I mean? So it does, maybe doesn't even resonate in your frame in the same way.
Eva Oh: I know I did, um, maybe about. 10 years ago, I did, uh, an eye gazing and I cried because it was a stranger.
You can't really have those experiences with strangers. This was like a relief for me. Yeah. Cause I, I, I'm happy to have that kind of connection with anyone, at least momentarily, you know, that's that we are agreeing to. So I get the, I get it and I would like to get it more, I guess is what I'm saying, because I just.
There's some things about it that feel like potentially powerful, but there's something like you mentioned about the language, about the, the gender dynamics, about the dressing of it also, that I guess, is there like a, a slightly more contemporary? Uh, a, you're looking to the girl who's curious.
Nicole: I also teach yoga, right?
So like you're looking to the woman who's trying to explore and bring it in. Right. Cause like, what would it mean to talk about, Oh, we're moving energy through our parasympathetic nervous system. That's helping us to relax or the sympathetic, right. Rather than a chakra system. I mean, I'm curious. So, yeah, stay tuned.
Eva Oh: I'll have to listen tot more too, then, yeah,
Nicole: yeah, because I do think it's powerful.
And like, again, if I want to orgasm without being touched, I think that's where I want to go to learn more about it.
Eva Oh: Yeah. Okay. I, it'd be interesting also to know what different possibilities there would be for you to get to that point.
Nicole: Right.
Eva Oh: Not only tantra, but I don't, I mean, I have no idea.
Nicole: Totally.
Eva Oh: Awesome. I guess, um, it depends maybe on how much you react to something, like sometimes, um, it can be, uh, like just words, like when you have people in bondage and there's a lot of words, sometimes, that can happen. So, I guess it's like, it's maybe hypnotism in a way. Yeah. Yeah. See you later.
Nicole: Yeah. Endless world of exploration.
And this is why I was just so fascinating. Like the clinical psychology food field has nothing on this. Again, I started this work because I volunteered as a sexual assault counselor and I was like, wow, I want to help people and getting into the field and then realizing there was no training on what it means to go from the initial trauma narrative into pleasure.
It's just like a huge lacking part of the whole equation. So I'm hoping to be able to study that aspect of it of pleasure and what it means to come back to embodiment and play and
Eva Oh: yeah, yeah, like such, um, such a searching for people thing.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Eva Oh: Even just with what you just said, it seems to be like such a common desire these days.
Yeah, people know that it's something that's possible, but everybody is scurrying, trying to find the parts.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah.
Eva Oh: You know, I mean, I get a lot of people who come to me asking similar questions.
Nicole: Sure.
Eva Oh: Yeah. And, but, um, I don't, like I, I've mentioned to you before and I just don't really know what to tell them.
Yeah. So I'm going to be looking forward to your paper.
Nicole: I'll bring you back on the podcast in a decade. We'll check it and we'll see what we've learned in that time. Right. Yeah.
Eva Oh: Or I will strap you to my bondage chair and I will read it to you.
Nicole: Absolutely. I love that. Very fun. Yeah. Well, it has been such a pleasure to talk to you today.
I wanna hold a little bit of space just to check in with each guest. I always take a deep breath and I ask if there's anything left on your heart that you wanna share with the listeners. Otherwise, I have two closing questions I wanna ask.
Eva Oh: Oh, I just hope that they understand, um, how wonderful it is to have you as a.
Nicole: Hmm. That's so sweet of you.
Eva Oh: And me.
Nicole: Yeah. Hell yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Been a joy. It's truly been a joy. I love it. I'm feeling the energy and the life force. So thank you.
Eva Oh: And the questions.
Nicole: Yes. The first question I've been, um, trying on that I've been enjoying is, um, if you could close your eyes. And look back to your past self. Maybe this is 13 years ago when you're first stepping into the dungeon. Maybe this is a different point that's coming to mind for you earlier or later.
I'm curious with the wisdom that you have now. What would you say to that younger self
Eva Oh: do it all
Nicole: jump in the water,
Eva Oh: go make all the same bloody mistakes. You're doing great. Amazing. Just as hard as you want to just do it all. You did great.
Nicole: Mm. I love that. Such good words.
Eva Oh: I survived, you know, like, it's cool.
Nicole: Totally. You're thriving, dare I say?
Eva Oh: Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. And the last question I ask every guest is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Eva Oh: Oh, um, feeling lost.
Nicole: Yeah. You want to say more?
Eva Oh: Hmm. Uh, I think people put so much pressure on themselves to, Oh, I am this definitive thing and I moved this way through the world and I'm going to find myself and I'm going to act like this and I'm going to be like that.
And people are going to see me like this. It's like, uh, really control other people's perception of you, even when you have them strapped to a bondage chair. Right. You've put all the marketing out, and it's the end of the day, other people's perceptions of you is going to be very hard to control. So let's not worry about that one right now.
And your concept of you is never going to be complete. And what that's going to be is always going to be shifting. So forget about that stupid idea that you need to be this thing. And to be like that, and to present like this, it's just like, everybody is just one lost mess. Okay. And we should enjoy it.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, have you seen the size of this universe? Do you think we have some control? I mean, whoa, you know, it's a yes and but whoa. And hopefully that gives people the space to the freedom to flow in their life, right? In existence to know that these They don't have to be these concrete boxes of existence to like, we were talking about earlier, like following the winds of our pleasure and where that takes us and just trusting in that.
Eva Oh: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess like, um, kind to yourself, but also maybe find people around. If you feel like it's just not possible, it might just also be the The choices that you have around you, like the people around you, the limitations of that. And I guess sometimes we need to compartmentalize a little bit, but if we can even just give ourselves a little bit of freedom and a little bit of a defined time, I think it would be just a little bit gentler and softer for ourselves.
And that can maybe grow if we can find space for it.
Nicole: Absolutely.
Eva Oh: Yes. I want people to be happy.
Nicole: Yeah, well you're doing that powerful work today through our conversation and all the work that you're doing in the world, so thank you.
Eva Oh: Thank you. Thank you. I think, I think I'm trying.
Nicole: Yeah. For people who are interested in learning more about your work, your podcast, where would you want to plug for them?
Eva Oh: So if you just search Eva Oh, thankfully my SEO, it's not bad apparently. So I met her, uh, on the social media, my handle is usually you will please me. Uh, and my podcast is called Tea Kink with Dominatrix Eva Oh. It's just me rambling. But, um, people
Nicole: seem to like it. I like it. I tuned in. It's good. It's good.
Eva Oh: Yeah. Thank you. Random stories from my life, which seems to be a lot. I don't know where they came from, but there's a lot there apparently.
Nicole: I'll have all that in the show notes below and it truly was such a joy to have you on the podcast today. Yes. so much. Thank you.
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