Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole. On today's episode, we have Relationship Anarchist, Jase
join us for another relationship anarchy research interview. Together we talk about moving beyond the one hug system, needing to find new pop artists, and the power of disruptive love. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.
My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy. And I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice, supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear listener. Please know that these relationship anarchy conversations are some of my favorite conversations on the podcast.
What a joy to be so seen, what a joy to feel so understood, and all through two words, right? Relationship anarchy. Dear listener, if you are a relationship anarchist, hi. I want to talk to you. Submit your answers to the questions at the link below. I want to hear what you have to say about the movement, about the practice of relationship anarchy, and I'm honored that relationship anarchists from around the world are trusting me to have these conversations, to explore these very nuanced and vulnerable topics together, and that I get to share it with you.
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And with that, dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love, and Let's tune in to today's episode. The first question that I have for you is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Jase: My name is Jase, I use they them pronouns, I'm queer, non binary, DJ, I'm an artist, I'm passionate about nightlife, and fashion, and drifting, and self expression.
Nicole: Well, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today and get to explore relationship anarchy.
Jase: Thanks for having me.
Nicole: So the first big question is, what is relationship anarchy?
Jase: To me, it's just an intentional way of approaching relationships that looks to deconstruct the way that systems affect the way that we approach relationships, giving you an opportunity to approach relationships with curiosity and open mindedness.
And yeah, just a lot more opportunity involved, I think.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. I'm curious, how did you come to relationship anarchy? When did that spark start for you?
Jase: That's a good question. I don't know when the exact term came up for me. It's been a few years now, but I definitely didn't engage with it totally until more recently.
The YouTube content creator, Anne Rell, is somebody that I've spent some time listening to and watching. And that has helped me kind of like gain some more perspective on it and kind of like changed like my, especially with regards to hierarchy and power. I feel like they talk about hierarchy and power a lot.
And that that's been something that I've been thinking about a lot.
But I think, I think it was really like starts with like, Questioning my sexuality, and then questioning monogamy, and questioning my gender, and questioning romance, and then all relationships, and it just kind of like devolves to, you know, all of this is, is kind of, it all affects each other, you know?
Nicole: Right. Right. Yeah. You go down the rabbit hole with one and then suddenly you find yourself in a land of new places, right? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah. That was definitely a little bit of my journey too of exploring sexuality and monogamy and then, you know, going down the path of polyamory and then finding relationship anarchy and realizing, oh, we have all of these relationships.
Why am I just defining, you know, partner in my world around this, you know, classification system versus recognizing the fullness that we all have multiple relationships of love of varying types.
Jase: Yeah, definitely. It's, it's so much opportunity and it's beautiful and I definitely understand why I have fallen into those scripts and people still do and I still do to this, you know, it's, I think that's the thing that's really hard about it is that it's safe to fall into the scripts and there's a lot of joy that I have felt from those relationships in the past that I kind of like hold on to and I have to like kind of mourn and grieve, you know?
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's deep within our unconscious. I think whether we want to admit that or not, the reality of these, these systems have impacted us so deeply. It makes me think of the work of Michael Foucault and just the ways that that power differential is deep within our psyche. It also reminds me of when I was practicing Christianity growing up in that culture.
It's what I was taught. This is how I viewed the world, you know, what Women couldn't be pastor, you know, the whole thing. And that seemed so normal to me that I would have defended it at the time. Where now when I'm out of that, I look back on that with true horror and disgust of the world I was in, but at the time had no idea.
And a lot of the same path has gone. Come to with my practice of a relationship anarchy, where I look back on things that I was so adamant about, so hard, strong, you know, really felt strongly about, and I realize, oh shit, that was society impacting me. And that was not really my choice. I was so deeply within this, this water that I didn't even see, which then makes me afraid of the now where I'm like, oh, no.
What do I not see now, but I am committed to the journey of reflecting on that. Like the lifetime practice of that, of humility, of acknowledging the ways that the systems are deep within my unconscious and trying to examine that and examine their impacts on myself and my community at large.
Jase: Yeah, definitely.
I think you brought up the word practice and I think it's just a constant practice and a renegotiation with yourself. And, and I've heard you talk about like, you know, listening to your old podcast episodes and kind of cringing. And I can't imagine. It's definitely a brave thing to put yourself out there right now.
They're the way you do like, because I am a passionate person and I've been that way my entire life and I'm 37 like I have had a lot of experiences and I would probably cringe at most of the things that I was passionate about in the past. But I, I don't know. It's nice to just be accepting of those things and be tender with yourself.
And yeah, just know that like, those are parts of yourself. I think that's another thing that I've realized is like, yeah, I'm a queer person and I want to build queer community and I want to be seen for who I am 100 percent of the time, but like, that's not the reality and I can be comfortable in spaces where I'm not being seen because That is a part of me.
I've been there, you know, and I know I can accept that without, like, having to, like, constantly feel like I have to live up to this, like, ideal value system, you know?
Nicole: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, you had mentioned anarcho relating, right? Yeah. The YouTube channel with Sally. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, I had just recorded with them, so your episode will be coming out.
Jase: Oh, wow. That's awesome.
Nicole: Yeah, I talked to you about the timeline, so it'll be a little different, but I just recorded with them.
Jase: That's really great.
Nicole: Yeah, and I appreciated part of our conversation. They had mentioned having compassion for themselves, for their family. When they look back realizing that they were right exactly where they were meant to be at that time and I'm trying to tell myself that too of like, you know, as much as we see the values of where we want to go, and we want to continue to be there.
Also, what does it mean to celebrate that? I am where I'm meant to be right now. The messiness is what I'm moving through and it is. Okay, I will continue to grow and I can accept, like, the yes and of that. That really stuck out for me from our conversation.
Jase: That's great. I, I really appreciate the vulnerability that comes with this work and hearing that from, you know, people that I, like, respect and, I mean, I can really relate to the way that you express yourself and the way that they express themselves on, you know, in their content.
It just feels very, yeah, like, It's easy to be hard on yourself because of how much you feel like you, you can work on, you know, but that doesn't mean that like, it's not. Yeah. Like, like it's all something that I'm very proud of, you know, all the things that I've done at this point, the ways that I've made changes to live to my values, all that, all that matters to me.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And I try to remember too, like when we get upset about how we're showing up. That reaction is a reflection of our values, right? Because we're like, wow, I want to be better. I want to do this. And so that reaction we're having is actually grounded in our values. So instead of beating ourselves up of, wow, I failed and I missed this and I'm so upset.
It's like, Wow, I didn't hit the target here. But the reason why that's bothering me is because I actually want to be there. And so what does it mean to continue to move from that space rather than beating yourself up that you didn't miss it? And I, I'll tell myself that one every day, probably for a lifetime, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jase: I really, it's, it's hard, but it's, it's valuable to like, Learn and move on and yeah, grieve and mourn those things that you're losing and also, yeah, you have to have to keep moving because things are going to move around you like changes is a constant and like, I really love that because I I love different things.
I've loved different things, so many different things in my life, and I love newness, and I love, uh, just being surprised. I don't know, so.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's the beauty of the journey is what's next, right? There's, there's a way to look at it. Oh, no, what's next? And also. Ooh, what's next, right? And so depending on the half full, half empty, you know, way that you're looking at the scenario.
So I love that frame. And I'm curious, how do you practice relationship anarchy? How does this come into your life?
Jase: Uh, I think it's just a way of approaching relationships differently than I have and being aware that like I have these needs that I think need to be met in a certain prescriptive way because of Um, The way that everybody does things and the way that it's, it's the easiest to do things and you don't have to have any of these conversations, you know, and communication is hard.
It's vulnerable. There's rejection involved. And that's something that I realized is very hard for me. But yeah, I think it's just about knowing that I don't have to look towards romance and sexual relationships As my way of getting my needs met specifically with, I think, physical touch is a big thing for me.
Nicole: Sure.
Jase: Yeah. Like, I'm, I'm learning that, like, that's the only place that I can get that because it's a need that I need to be met, you know, with frequency. And yeah, I don't think that it's something that, and I also like to, it's not just, um, receiving, it's giving as well. I really appreciate giving physical touch and feeling intimate in that way with people around me.
And, you know, I've. Had some new relationships recently where it feels like it's platonic, but it's, you know, it's romantic. It is. It's like, it's not, it's not romantic in a way that's ever going to be like sexual or like partnership, but it's like, I love you. And. I'm going to touch you because of that, you know, like, and that feels really nice.
I think that that, and there's just so many ways that that intimacy, emotional intimacy, even sex, like all these things can be deconstructed and not be prescribed to a hierarchy of like, this is my person that. Does this, you know,
Nicole: yeah, really the liberation of your love. Uh, it sounds so cheesy and hippie woo woo, but damn it hits, right?
Damn it. It's like, it's really real. Yeah. Like the, just the ability, uh, to have your whole community there and to feel comfortable lovingly, affectionately have that bond. Physical touch and not be worried that you are doing something wrong or that they're doing something wrong by that. If they have other people in their life, I, I, I look back on my past experiences and relationships with monogamy where, yeah, if I saw a partner snuggle up to someone, I would have lost my shit, like lost my shit of what are you doing?
And then I moved through the world of that sort of like. tightness, right? And, and I could give a hug, but I couldn't give more. And I think that's where also the cultural context comes into play, where it's like in some cultures, it is not okay actually to hug someone of a different gender. In my culture and lived experience in my society, it is okay to hug.
That's part of what we don't remember when we think about our relationships. And why I appreciate relationship anarchy, this deeper context of culture, this deeper context of power, to understand that what feels normal is actually so culturally dependent.
Jase: Yeah. It's individually dependent. I mean, so many of our experiences are so specific and they are common as well.
But yeah, I definitely see the cultural differences coming up when you said like some people don't hug. I actually thought you were going to say some people even go further than that. A lot of cultures, like the intimacy is actually cranked up and it's normalized for siblings and friends and other loved ones.
It's not, uh, it's not the way it is here. And yeah, it is interesting how you're like, You're prescribed one hug for your friends when you see them and when you leave them. And like, that's, that's all you get. I'm like, no one really talks about that. No one says that, but that's just kind of how it is. And yeah, like I find myself falling into that even in new relationships where I've gotten to the point where I'm like, how do you feel about physical touch?
And the person says, I love it. That's great. And then we're still just like hugging when we see each other and that's kind of it. And we haven't like gone beyond that. Like, well, what does that mean for you? It doesn't mean, do you just want to hug when we see each other? Does, is it okay that I like come up and like touch you on the back when we're with each other?
Like there's so many different conversations that can be had. And I think that's so overwhelming and also beautiful. And it's just a lot.
Nicole: It is a lot. And a lot of us don't have the language. To even name that, right? And this, you know, talking about touch and whether we want to use platonic, sexual, right?
The more you get to an erotic space, wherever that line is, the more complicated it gets for people to be able to name their desires. It often is a silence, like, truly, like, almost like a trauma response, really. And I've been there where I've had people ask, how do you like to be touched in erotic ways?
And I literally had no response, just silent. When we talk about trauma responses, y'all, that's how, you know, like silence, uh, I had no ability to express my pleasure. And so that gets really complicated, but it's so high and it's so great in the, the consent. And so, yeah, when we're thinking all the way about platonic touch, even like people don't even think about, yeah, is this okay?
Is this part of the body? Okay. How do you feel about this? Or a kiss on the cheek and the, the amount of safety that you can feel in your relationships when you're able to have that. But so many people often would, would.
Jase: Yeah. It's just a long conversation. Like, you can ask if the person's interested in those things, but then you have to ask, what does that mean to you?
And that could mean that we're friends. That could mean that you want to marry me. Like, and it's just so, so much goes into it. Yeah. And, and Anrel actually has a really good video on semantics. I don't know if you've watched that one, but it's, it's really interesting to think about how, How hard it is to relate to people, just in general.
How little, like, you could actually be using the same language and it's still not actually Coming through in the same way because of your own lived experience and the way that you think about words and the context.
Nicole: Right. Exactly. Yeah. That's unavoidable. Every single time that you're talking to a human, it's the beauty of, you know, it makes me think of like existential therapy of they would talk about isolation, how we're all isolated up here within our psyches.
And so my understanding of all the words I'm saying right now are framed through my lived experience of years of what those words mean, you as well. And so anytime that we are having a conversation, we are constantly missing each other and just interpreting it through our, through our own language. You know, we, we can't give up and just not communicate, but I think it's important to name that we are always locked within our own perspective.
So yeah, getting clear on someone who says, you know. What this touch means to them. They might say, oh, that means we're partners. Okay. What does partnership mean to you? Right, like we could really go down and I've had so much joy then in my relationships actually getting really clear on that I've loved those conversations of check ins of what does partnership mean to you or what do you want it to mean?
What do you want friendship or these various labels that we decide together? are applicable for our relationship to me and getting really into that has been such a beautiful exciting process.
Jase: Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely exciting. I haven't really had too many of those conversations, but I look forward to definitely having more of them.
Nicole: Yeah, definitely. And then for me, it's also been the space of feeling so much. Love feeling, uh, it's God, the cheesiness, it just hits me again and again, but I'm a happy, I'm a happy human. So I'm going to go for it. You know, I've just, just so much of my life. I had been so indoctrinated. Taylor Swift, The Notebook, all these romance myths, man, of the one, the one, the one, so much so that when I was single, I felt so devoid of meaning and purpose.
It's almost like a religious structure in and of itself, right? I don't have the one to worship, the one to be the center of my universe, versus, wow, I have so many relationships. Whoa. And to actually look around and feel that level of intentionality instead of putting someone into a box of one and not one, to actually see the fullness of all of your relationships around you, it brings me such joy.
And that is absolutely a paradigm shift of the half empty or half full glass, right? Like all of these relationships versus one or no one, you know, Oh my God, that one kills my heart.
Jase: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot. There's a lot of joy and there's a lot of pain going on, like, on both sides of that, because, yeah, so many people are stuck in that, and I find myself, yeah, being still kind of open to that because it's easy, you know, like the needing that connection and not knowing where to find it and it being so just hard to have these conversations and have the space for them.
You know what I mean?
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.
Jase: Like falling into patterns
Nicole: of centering someone. Is that what you're talking about? Or yeah. Share more.
Jase: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like realizing how much I've prioritized like romance and, and like, even when I was Even had decided that I was poly, it's like so specifically about like being wanted and being de desired.
I think desirability is a big thing that comes up for me and just realizing that like my value does not lie and, and sexual or romantic desirability at all. And I have a lot of really, I do have a lot of really important friendships and relationships that don't have anything to do with those things, right?
But those, but those things are still a big part of my needs and wants. So like figuring out how to like, yeah, like have space to get those things and, and realizing that like what you said about, uh, the notebook and Taylor Swift, like, uh, like pop music and I like, I love pop music. Carly Rae Jepsen is one of my favorite artists.
All of her songs are about love, literally every single one of them. Like, and they're all about like that one person, that one. And it's like, it's just wild how deep it goes and how much I'm connected to it. And a big part of me still wants that, like, to like, yeah, to like, save me from the pain of being alone.
You know what I mean? Like,
Nicole: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we all need connection. Flat, right? We all need connections. We all need relationships. We all need community and particularly under these capitalistic structures that have so separated us. Where are community spaces where we're coming together? Those are so limited, particularly, you know, so many people live in, in dyadic spaces that are so isolated or live alone, right?
And the ways that that impacts us, we need more community spaces. And I mean, um, I, I, at least I'll speak for myself, right? Sex is fun. I love having sex. It is great. So it makes sense that I would want to have more of that in my life. And I do it with multiple different people. And, and the word romance gets so murky, right?
Like there are, if we want to use the labels, I have a platonic person that I write love letters for, that I deeply care about. And for me, it's been really interesting to find these words of romance being so disconnected from sex and realizing that I have it in all these different relationships, the friend who brings me flowers.
We don't have sex, but I call that romantic. And then even to see in the ways that my sex life is so spread out where I'll have, you know, maybe someone that orbits me much closer and we do a lot of emotional sharing of our lives and our daily experience moving through the world. And then I'll have a friend that I have sex with every couple of months, but then have someone who's platonically closer to me that I'm not having any sex with.
And so it's just really like. Murky the water of all this in this beautiful way instead of it being friends are here and so far and not close and sex is here and so close. It's really just gotten this wide diversity of of the word sex doesn't mean they're inherently close to me. The word play tonic doesn't mean they're inherently It's really about each relationship taking its own lane and finding the beauty of that.
And, and, and truly what brings me the pleasure of that, right? Cause there, I find myself with most of my close relationships being a mix of sexual romantic. And that feels really good. It's just not the only thing I prioritize, you know?
Jase: Yeah, definitely. It really comes down to vulnerability when it comes down to practicing these things and being willing to accept how people want to be in relationship with you, you know?
And, and there's something like, protective and almost like, I don't know. It's like, uh, there's like a game to it that's kind of intoxicating to like not know and to kind of just like navigate it in this. Yeah, it's uncomfortable, but it's definitely something that we're all just kind of, you know, a lot of people are just, you know, And because it's, it is what it is, you know?
Sure. Um, yeah, I definitely can relate to a lot of what you said. And I feel a lot of those feelings about my friends, you know, I feel romantic feelings about my friends and I feel attracted sexually to a lot of people that I'm like in relationship with that don't know that because it feels like it's, you have to like have so many conversations when you, when you bring that to light.
You know what I mean?
Nicole: Yeah. And in some ways it makes a lot of sense to eroticism is play, right? Like, look at my beautiful people. Of course I want to play with them. Right? Like. You know, like when you really think about it, I mean, yeah. And so finding out or really learning to have the communication skills to navigate that though, right.
Of what does it mean to get clear? Cause for so long, for my life, it's been this easy path of you date romance. It's all here. One person, we follow the relationship escalator. So much of it is unsaid and we just go down it. And so to now have these more fun. Fluid spaces. Wow. The amount of communication it takes to make sure you're on the same page or at least, you know, again, we talked about how we can never be on the same page with our realities, but at least trying to look at the same vision and constantly kind of checking in about like, do you feel like we're going down the same way?
Does this feel good to you? And then being able to trust that the other person is actually going to communicate with you. That's the other half of it too. You know, it's like they have to be able to tell you and like that, that act of that dance of coming together.
Jase: Yeah. Yeah, I think it just comes down to it being hard and you still have to be willing to push through that.
Like, even, even though like, yeah, I do think it's difficult to ever get to a place of full understanding. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be trying.
That's what I love about thinking about these things and trying to apply them. You know, it can be frustrating, but it can also be like, it's really, it's really satisfying when, when it works out.
And I think that there's like a, like, I hear it in the way that you talk about your relationships. Like, there's like a. A way that it just will start to happen if you, it's a practice. So you, the more you do it, the more you're going to see that it actually brings abundance and it actually brings joy and it's not so scary and it's actually exactly what you need, you know?
Nicole: Yeah. And I'll say that isolation, that space, that trying to get on the same page, that's what turns me on. When I really slow down to think about, wow. Hold on for a moment. This human being right here has a whole lifetime of experiences a Whole world up there and that beautiful brain of theirs. It is deep It is a whole galaxy of meaning making and we're coming together Sure, I'm trying to get on the same page, but oh my god We're combining galaxies when we're doing, wow, you know, like that gets me excited.
And so I can, I can get off on that one when I really sit on, um, the, the complexities of what it actually means for human beings to come together and share space and co create pleasure. Oof.
Jase: Yeah, that's really, I could definitely relate to that. It's really exciting. It's really the only way to get out of your head and come to new conclusions is to be in relationship and, you know, like you can take the information and parasocially, you know, you don't actually have to have a one to one interaction with somebody to, to learn from them.
But like, this, this kind of interaction, like, it's really exciting because, yeah, you just, you really can be with a person and, you know, I just learned so much like from these interactions.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. So, so right. Yes. Yeah. I'm curious then moving on to our third question. Why do you practice relationship anarchy?
Jase: Oh, that's a great question.
Nicole: Is there any other choice really?
Jase: I mean, I think, I think that's really, yeah, I think it's just like, once you're this far in, what are you going to do?
Nicole: Yep. Give up?
Jase: Are you gonna give up and just say, never mind? You can't.
Nicole: You can't.
Jase: No. No. Yeah, I think I think I don't know If I mentioned this about like just yeah, I think I did early on like It's just kind of all breaking down like one by one, you know, starting with sexuality and going all the way down to like romanticism and all relationships and thinking about family abolition and youth liberation and queerness, all these important philosophies to me like they're disruptive like they're, they're, they give, they give space for new things and that's just really, really exciting to me.
I love seeing somebody express themselves. I love. new music, new art, radical things, like things that just aren't of the norm, you know, and And I think that's why I want to be a part of that really, really badly.
Nicole: And I think you can feel it, that liberation in people, you know, I don't know, I see queer people in their joy and their celebration and that authenticity.
And, and I can feel that liberation pulsing and everything that they do. And I think you can, I can feel a lot of that in the community, right? Especially a relationship anarchist of what it means to have that liberation and the. perspective it makes you have on the world is something that's very sabbatically felt in, in their joy and, and, and the big beautiful brains and hearts that we have that are constantly in this reflective practice.
Jase: Yeah, definitely. It's just important to me to be practicing things in a way that I would have wanted things to be, like, I would have wanted to be exposed to this earlier on in my life, obviously, and I felt the same way about sexuality, queerness, all these things, just like, if I had had the example, I would have done this earlier, and I would love For that to be like me showing that to other people.
And, you know, I'm sure you can relate to that as someone doing this work.
Nicole: Yeah, definitely. I think that, uh, past me, if she saw me right now, she would say, Jason, we need to pray for her. She is off the rocker. She is going somewhere and it's bad. We need to pray right now. So I was so religious. It was, oh man.
So I, yeah. So. So it's, it's always hard to hold that when I think back, which I think is what makes me so deeply critical about free will and these questions, because I am so in abundance of love of community and relationships right now that it feels so damn good, but yeah, previous versions of myself would have looked at me and said, she is going down the wrong path and I would be praying for me hard.
And so then I asked really deep questions about free will and the ways in which I constantly come into the reality that what I want is so culturally laden that I don't even know if I have free will. My existential professor always told me in school, we have free will within what's within our existential awareness.
So our reality of what we see, but then I always come back and I'm like, yeah, Dr. Bose. But that awareness is shaped by your cultural context, right? We were talking about that earlier with the hug or the kiss and, and all of what feels normal to you, right? If someone came and kissed me on the cheek right now, and they met me, I'd be like, what are you doing?
In another cultural context, that would be normal. In, in American cultural context, that might be cheating, right? And so the free will question, it's a heavy one for me.
Jase: Yeah, I feel you. I mean, It's wild to even bring that into this conversation right now, Nicole, like, free will is a whole other thing, but I think it's just like, good to think you have it and like, just keep it there.
Nicole: Yep.
Jase: Because yeah, I, I can relate. I wasn't as religious, but I was raised religious and, um, I was in Catholic school and, um, I was, I went to a boy's Catholic school for high school. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. And I, you know, I kind of wish that religion was the only thing that I had to unlearn. You know what I mean?
Like, I feel pretty, you know, far separated from that influence, but like, it's just so much further reaching than that. It's just like, you know, because it's that, that same patriarchal system is kind of, it's all still everywhere. You know, the power differential is, is it exists in every single relationship you're in.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's a lot.
Nicole: Yeah. And Esther Perel has done a lot of work to talk about the ways in which, again, we're relational creatures. We need community. Church religion often played that part, right. In a lot of our lives in the past, historically. And so it was a space where you could come together and you'd also have purpose and meaning for your life and the ways in which.
Romanticism has taken over and as our religious, you know, it, it's declining less and less people are identifying as religious. And so now we're having this movement of, okay, so instead of going to church and having this community space, I now live in a dyad and I really try to worship and live with this one person as my sole point of connection.
Contact with love and purpose for my life. And again, that's not even a question of monogamy or non monogamy. It's a question of community. You cannot live and thrive in a dyad alone. And so many people do try to do that. You watch them shut down all of their other relationships. And again, this isn't about sex.
This is about having multiple relationships of love and you cannot survive on one other person alone.
Jase: Yeah. Yeah. I just think there's, there really isn't any other examples out there for anyone to look at. And it's, yeah, it's a, it's a method of control the same way that religion is like, I think it does really relate like, yeah, we have shifted and I haven't really thought about it that way that like culturally we've shifted to the, the family system being the way that we kind of control ourselves because, but we also don't really have a lot of other opportunities.
You know, I, I think it's important to really like keep that in mind that like, yeah, it's a privilege to be able to even think about these things, you know, I don't even have space for it most of the time, you know, just trying to survive here.
Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. It takes privilege to take time and reflect and even all of the conversations that we're talking about.
Right. Yeah. That is so much harder to do when you have three kids running around because you didn't have access to an abortion or contraception or sex education and those kids are running around. How are you supposed to slow down enough to have all these different, I mean the systems are right there, all of it.
It's such deep political, these, these questions of pleasure and relationships, you cannot take that outside of the political context.
Jase: Yeah, definitely not.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. And I know we've hit on this in a lot of different ways, but how does relationship anarchy impact your practice of intimacy?
Jase: Yeah. Just being able to ask for what you want and also being able to deconstruct why you want it and being honest with yourself about that and then being honest with the people around you about it.
And yeah. Opening yourself up to intimacy being a more abundant thing and not being something that's limiting to one or two people, like, like, I think Polly was my first exposure to this and I realized that it really wasn't exactly what I was looking for, you know, like, it helps. It definitely does. But it's like, it's still prioritizing romance and sex over it.
Other relationships, and I think I can get my physical intimacy, not, not all my needs met, but like a lot of them met just by people who fit into those exact You know, definitions,
Nicole: right? Right, exactly. Yeah. Polyamory being loving more than one person missing the whole fact that we all love multiple people, right?
It just like, it misses the mark for me. I mean, it's, it's an important thing for the movement. And I know we're still working to even normalize it, but it's important. polyamory, right? And get that into the cultural context, but it somehow misses the whole point here that this is not meant. I mean, it's like you're saying still directly focuses your life on this question of whether you have multiple sex or romantic partners rather than seeing the Fullness of your whole community and the ability to kind of do what I was saying earlier of having these Individual relationships of individual meaning making right and allowing those to unfold to what feels authentic to both parties It's it's just it's instead of the bifurcation of monogamy or non monogamy.
We are outside of that context We are existing in a whole different category
Jase: Yeah, it feels The, like, outside perspective of, like, polyamory is, like, that it's, it's still, it's very, like, selfish. It's very, very self serving. And actually, what I thought was very interesting, I googled relationship anarchy recently, and even that is, like, defined in, on Google as, like, a romantic thing.
Like, it's very specifically, like, tied to poly in this strong way in people's, even, like, I think even, you know, it's practice in that way of like the relationship energy smorgasbord and all those things like very tied to polyamory and I just think recently I've I've noticed so much of how My needs just haven't been met thinking about it that way, and I want to I want to deconstruct it even more and look to open all of my relationships up to physical.
I already have a lot of emotionally intimate relationships like there. There are different types of intimacy. And at this point, I really have only started building new relationships with people who can be emotionally intimate, who can have real emotional conversations about how they're feeling, And how and can hold space for how I'm feeling and then with physical intimacy, I think it's just a work in progress with like having those conversations with the people who I've built relationships with and navigating new relationships with that expressed desire, you know, and letting people know right right off the bat and not letting it like kind of linger, which is the thing that I feel like I've historically done in a lot of relationships like I'm attracted to these people and I want something like from the relationship and I let it I just hope for it instead of actually asking for it.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. You know? Mm hmm. Where now you feel more like direct to be able to name that?
Jase: Yeah, I think it's, yeah, it's, it's to a place where now I know what I need and what I want and can I name it and can I, yeah, hold space for other people and, and I think that's the thing that I, yeah, I want to make sure that I'm being conscious of.
It's like, it's, this is a relationship, right? There's other, another person involved and, and what do they want? Yeah. And. Have being willing to hold space and have conversations, you know?
Nicole: Yeah. And that takes a lot of emotional insight, right? A lot of self understanding and then the communication skills.
Yeah. Which we get in community, right? I think that's also part of this, this dynamic that I think is important to name is that again, we're social creatures. We're shaped by our environment. We're shaped by our relationships. We know this from the field of psychology. And. The reality is though, you are that person moving through historically, right?
Like we talked, we talked about the existential isolation. You are the only person who has moved through all of those relationships to have the long history of a narrative that you do have. So yes, we have the individual, but the individual is shaped by the relationships, right? When I was deep within Christianity, that was my world.
I was friends who, with people who were marrying in past. I was going to church. And so this language was all revolving around me. And then as I started to come out, I had to make new friends who started to speak with different language. And then even to be in this space now, most of my friends here are practicing various forms of radical relating.
And that being so crucial to how I have the communication skills because, you know, someone sat down with me and, you know, really slowed down to explore these conversations with me in ways that I never used to do. And so I think we have to remember that we, we grow these skills in community as well.
Jase: Yeah.
And I think the thing that's critical is just where I'm at is understanding more about myself and my queerness and. Having to change the communities that I'm in because I don't feel like seen or held in those communities And and that takes time like that's grieving. That's um a lot. So yeah, I've made a lot of like new queer friends And it's still like a work in progress to like build that community and yeah, I think that's, that's,
Nicole: I'm so glad you're doing that.
Jase: Thanks. I really appreciate it.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's everything. Again, relationships are mirrors and I can feel when I talk about an aspect of my life, you know, maybe I'm like, Oh, I was hanging out with my metamore and we were grabbing coffee and that person goes, Oh, What? I could never do that.
And I'm like, Oh, I mean, we had a great time. We were, you know, like, I feel so unseen in those moments. Right. And it hurts. And I feel like I can't even go deeper to process anything of my life. Right. All these different identities, queerness parts that, you know, are so crucial to ourselves when they're not reflected or understood.
I have clients in therapy who then will say like, Oh, Well, I just want to be tougher. I want it to not bother me. What's wrong with me that it bothers me? Oh, of course it's gonna bother you. Of course it is a mirror that you are looking into, and it's a funhouse mirror, and it's giving you some weird shit back.
I don't know, who doesn't look into that mirror and say, I look funny, you know what I mean? Like, uh.
Jase: Yeah, that's really true. I think people are just so used to being around me. The looking into that phone house mirror and having to kind of adjust the way they think about themselves to meet that instead of, you know, adjusting their environment to meet the needs that they have internally.
Nicole: Yeah, I could hold an abundance of space for that one. And what I see with my therapy clients, right? Truly, truly. And all of us, I think that's one of my, my, I watch when, like, that example of, oh, I was getting coffee with my metamore and the other person reacting with fear, it makes me want to shut down, feels like I did something wrong, that's, you know, just purely even on evolutionary points, right, it has always been safe for us to stay within the herd and community, if there's something that's different, that's going to take us out, that is actually a thing.
Fear because it could cause death, right? And so when this person reacts like that, I say, Oh, am I doing something wrong? And I'm motioning to you, the listeners can't see of this sort of, um, caving in with my shoulders of protection and feeling like I need to get smaller. And the second I feel that. I do a deep check in my body and I say, okay, what's going on in this relationship?
Is this someone that I feel safe enough to connect with about this aspect of my life? Because not all my friends have to meet me here, right? I know we had talked about that. You know, some friends are really good in certain contexts, some coworkers, right? Really good in certain contexts. And so then I have the empowerment of noticing that reaction in my body and saying, you know what?
This is not something that I'm going to open up to. With them about, and I get to be empowered to make that decision and feel safe with my body.
Jase: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the important thing is knowing what you need, being able to listen to your body and protecting yourself because those, those things are going to come up and you don't have to fight every single battle with every person that you're in relationship with.
It's, you can't, it's exhausting. So yeah, I, I, and, and I value the relationships of those people who I'd have. No language to speak about these things with that doesn't mean that I don't love them. I care about them.
Nicole: Right?
Jase: I want to I want to find other things. And that's I think that's also a part of relationship anarchy.
It's like, I can be in relationship with people who will never understand that phrase, but They can still be a part of it, and it's still a part of that philosophy for me.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah, my family, my blood family is a lot of that, right?
Jase: I mean, we could talk forever about all these different dynamics, and family is such a deep one.
Because that's really the only place that I have historically been able to feel safe knowing that my, at least my, like, survival needs will be met by my family if I need that. You
You know, and that's, that's really important and I've had to like deal with realizing how much they've hurt me and how much they've limited me, but then they were just doing the best that they could and how much they still support me to this day, even though they'd never get my pronouns right.
And, you know, it's just like a lot, it's kind of a lot,
Nicole: that is a lot,
Jase: I think it's like creating this balance of like taking it seriously and it meaning something to you and holding that value and standing up for it. And then also. Giving yourself a break and taking a deep breath and knowing that it's it's serious, but like you're doing the work and it's not like It's not so serious that you need to be on all the time.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah, allowing yourself some space to breathe. Mm hmm. We touch the grass, we touch the trees, we have a little giggle, and we go back, right?
Jase: Yeah, I mean, I'm all about having fun. That's a major priority for me.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. Which, I mean, the next question is the difficulties question, then we'll get to the joys, but uh, what have been the difficulties of relationship anarchy for you?
Jase: I, like, I knew this question was coming and I was like, how can I not talk about this the entire time? To be honest with you.
Nicole: Sure,
Jase: yeah, let's go there. Yeah. I feel like I've touched on it a lot. It's just like, it's hard. Um, rejection, I think is the biggest thing, you know, and finding people who are willing to have the conversations who aren't trying to have a monogamy.
I think that's the thing. Like, people are having, trying to have monogamous relationships. Like for, for a minute, it's felt kind of like limiting, you know, in a way. And then I had to realize that like, that wasn't the only thing I was looking for was a was a romantic or sexual relationship, but it kind of like even bringing this into the conversation kind of like is gonna tell people that like, Oh, well, this isn't what I'm looking for.
I'm looking for something monogamous. And so yeah, I think it's just kind of in my head made me feel like it's limiting. But I don't think it necessarily is. I think finding the right spaces has been something that I need to do. And, uh, actually Reggie invited me. We, we do a peer support group every Thursday, every Wednesday, every Wednesday night, we do a peer support group.
And this next coming Wednesday, we're doing like an anarcho curious like meetup. So I feel like that'll be a good space to meet new people in the city that Are having these conversations, you know,
Nicole: absolutely, absolutely. I'm so glad that you're doing that and that you're finding the spaces because I, I don't like to promise a certainty, but damn, I feel like you're going to feel much better when you have people who look at you and say, yeah, I get it.
Yeah, totally. I'm also doing that. Yeah. Yeah. And just the power, the transparency. formative power of relationships to change your whole mental health, your whole sense of self. Oof.
Jase: Yeah. The other thing that comes to mind when I think of difficulties is just like, it being so messy to be like, like constantly reevaluating these things for yourself and, and trying to figure them out.
And then like, I feel like I've communicated them in ways that didn't really work out for me. Like, you know, because I was still kind of in the middle of figuring them out, or I was talking about them in a very detached way, like almost too philosophical and not direct enough. And it's created like, I don't know, just confusion and difficulties, which has been hard, you know, because then that kind of like, Causes you to shut down a little bit thinking like, well, this is difficult and, uh, I'm not ready to have these conversations yet.
Maybe, you know,
Nicole: it is really difficult. And I think that's something I see often with my clients, right. Is the ways that we have these value systems of how we want to show up. And I've definitely felt this in my own life of seeing that person. I want to become seeing the ways I want to be in community and then share love.
And then also feeling like I'm not there yet and I'm continually climbing and trying and trying and trying. And I keep looking there going, damn, this is so hard. Damn, this is so hard. And all the while forgetting to look back and realize how far I've come in my ability to have these conversations. And so I'd be curious for you, like, could you share a little bit about what that journey has been like for you?
Do you see progress when you take a moment and instead of looking up kind of look.
Jase: I mean, I see a ton of progress in the way that I've related to myself and the world around me. And I'm really, really proud and grateful for all of that. I think the one thing that really has, has got me a little stuck right now is, is, uh, Just kind of grieving and mourning, like, romance as a concept, as, that that's going to save me in some way.
Nicole: There's the religion, the religion right there, boom.
Jase: Yeah, it's like, like, like, like, like some person is going to complete me, and it's not a person, it's community. Right. And it's, it's a lot of, a lot of work, and, and there's a lot of just barriers to it. You know, and I think that I'm really, really grateful for the ways that like I feel comfortable in my own skin.
And I know that I want to be this way and I want to be queer and I want to stand out and I want to be disruptive and I want it to be political and all those things are related to relationship anarchy to me and like, yeah, they're just ways of showing up that like, are super important to me and I think communicate where I am and what I, what I value.
And it's like, I, I will find the people that feel the same way through that.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You hit on it so well. It's that desire to want to be saved and in. A relationship that desire to be in such deep connection and joy and love that makes sense What does it make sense is to think we're only going to find that with one person And to think that one person could be enough That's what doesn't make sense the desire to be seen the desire to explore joy and pleasure in connection Let's not do away with that because that's actually some of the best stuff we can have in this human experience, right?
Yeah, we get to our deathbed and you know people look back and the one thing they say that made or broke their experience in life Was the relationships and who was along with me for the ride of this existence I get to have so that Innate desire we have to have that sort of connection with a human being hell.
Yeah It's just that you're not only going to be satisfied with one person. We have to see that larger Community that is going to hold you that is going to be a part of that journey and a part of that formation of yourself You can't find yourself in one relationship And we do have a lot of like para and like meta relationships right through the internet content books movies all that You So we can't forget that too.
And so we are created through multiple relationships. We really just have to change the frame that has so deeply sold us, sold, sold that it's one person. And that's where you got the idea of, you know, marriage, even in this concept and the ways that women were property and this, this idea that at the time men could explore and have.
No problems with that. But the women were property. I mean, marital rape was not illegal in all 50 States until 1993. Until then a man could rape his wife because she was property. We've switched to an idea of love now in that concept and the ideas of romance, but that is not where it came from. And so now culturally, I feel like we're in this moment of examining kind of love and free choice and realizing, Oh, it's not just one person.
Again, it is all. whole community. And so the more that we can get that level of intentionality, I think you care to your garden more instead of just watering this one plant, you water the whole collection. And then you look up and see, wow, look at all of these flowers. Look at all of these trees. Look at all of this that I have rather than this one plant and the wilting of the rest of your whole garden.
Jase: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I really like what you said about like looking back on the relationships that you've had and, and that being so important. Like, I, I do think that connection is, is really innately important to everyone. And, and if aren't seeking it, it's probably because of some trauma that you've experienced.
And that's, it's the fault of the systems, you know, like I actually was just having a conversation with my mom today about, um, us kind of all being in a tough place in our family and she was like, I feel like me and your dad did something wrong and I was like, no, like, you definitely did it. Like, it's not your fault.
It's we're all in this together and we all are dealing with this. how messed up everything around us is, you know?
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.
Jase: It's tough.
Nicole: Exactly. Where, who do you point the finger at? Cause you know, yeah, sure. I could point it at my dad and then I know my grandma had my aunt at 14 and my dad at 16. So then do I point the finger at her or the, do I go back even, you know, it's like, who do I Who do we point, or maybe we should drop that question, have some compassion, show up and be like, all right, it's not your fault, but you are responsible for changing.
I'm responsible for changing, but we don't need to point the finger. So let's come together and do some work to break the cycles, to make change and to create a different world for the future generations.
Jase: Yeah. I mean, I think it's like, Yeah, if you, if you feel like your parents or your grandparents didn't take accountability in some way, then I think the only thing to do is to take accountability at that moment, like, you have to stop that generational, like, trauma, and you have to stop that thing that's occurring, and yeah, really, it's a really, really hard thing to do, but, and it goes back to, like, Yeah, what you were saying about marital rape and like these things that just like were so brutal and so normalized for such a long time like I can't really expect anybody from any, any previous generation to have a whole lot of tools to like deal with these things because there was just so much oppression going on and still to this day.
continues to happen and impacts us. Like, it's a lot.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Right. And so I'm reminded too of the ways that because of my family doing the best that they could, I felt like I never had my full emotional needs met in my family space. And so for me, that meant my romantic relationships were.
Everything, everything, this was the space I could be seen. This was the space I could be cared for. This was the space. And so there was so much pressure on that. And particularly in my context, it was one relationship because I was so Christian, so it was one relationship. And then when we think about resources, right, let's get, we can talk about the politics of all of this too, but when we think about resources, if we think about, you know, humans need.
Water food, let's throw in relationships as a resource that we need. I mean, again, if we look back to the research on babies who don't have relational attunement, they die. That's not even, they will die. Right. And, and we see how that lack of attunement can impact our mental health. So thinking about love and connection and relationships as a resource, when I only had one resource.
Do you know how tightly I held on to that and clawed at anybody who got close to that? I wouldn't fucking let them touch that resource. That is my resource. And so when we think about that on a larger scale, right, the ways that so many of us only often have one person that can meet, cannot meet, but tries to meet all of our needs, we are going to hold on to that like a Thirsty person in a desert.
And that I think is where we can talk about jealousy and all the other complications, because the more love I have flowing into me, it gets a lot easier to breathe because I have so much flowing in that I say, that's okay. I'm happy to share with you.
Jase: Yeah, totally. You really have me reflecting on like, My experience being so similar that like I didn't have my emotional needs met by my family So that when like I did originally have a lot like a strong connection to my friends in my adolescence but then I went through puberty and I was in Catholic school and there was actually a little bit of like physical and sexual intimacy between my friends when we were like still in like a curious space, but then like that immediately got like, and this is all, all mass people that I'm friends with.
Um, and as soon as it became like, okay, we would have to have conversations about this and admit that we're queer because we're doing these things like that got shut down. I stopped, I stopped looking for the emotional intimacy with those people too, because you know, you don't, you don't really look for it with your guy friends.
You look for it with. Within romantic and sexual relationships and then yeah, like it took me a long time to To realize that that's not what I wanted and I, you know, I had long term monogamous relationships that, you know, they eventually things change and your, your attraction changes. I realized I was queer.
I realized that, like, I literally have other physical, like, sexual needs that can't be met by it. this person. Like, it's, you know, yeah.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The gender politics of all of this are really deep for folks who identify as men or are assigned male at birth. It is deep, particularly as a woman, I have been taught that I'm relational and I go to friends and we chit chat and all of that.
On the other side, independence. And so often there's only one relationship. It's the romantic and emotional relationship where you can do this. So there, Oh, there's so much to unpack on that side in terms of liberation and intimacy there. It is really deep. And I do think we have to talk about the different ways that we've been socialized and how that impacts the accessibility of even these concepts and ideas, because now we're talking about like an even drier desert.
Right? Because there's even less water and so the violence and the jealousy and the possessiveness makes sense within that sort of desert landscape.
Jase: Yeah. Scarcity. It's a big part of it. The deeper you should go a little even even a little deeper with like People not having the language. It's like people don't even know what they want.
Like even like, and to know what is actually what you want and what has been influenced by external forces, like I am still unpacking that myself constantly. So it's like to have a person that has never even asked that question and never reflected on the fact that like movies and media have actually told you what you want and you don't have any, Yeah.
Real autonomy, like, in a way, like, that's a, that's a whole other thing that, like, I don't even know how you start with that, like, it's taken so many years, you know, to, to even get here, where I'm still kind of lost.
Nicole: Right? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. That's why I try to stay humble, you know, I'm like, I think I know what I'm doing right now.
It feels good, but I have no idea, you know, I will. But although someone did say to me recently, we were talking about non monogamy and they're like, well, yeah, maybe you'd go back to monogamy. And I said, you know what, actually felt pretty confident on this one of saying no, never, I really can't where I'm at.
It's like saying, let's go back to patriarchal Christianity where women can't be pastors and you have to submit to the authority. I'm like, um, I guess maybe in some world where I got a really deep concussion, we can maybe go back there.
Jase: Oh, yeah, there's always, I mean, any little brain chemistry change and all of a sudden your whole world could be like, Slip upside down, I'm sure.
But beyond that, yeah, it's the same, we touched on this earlier about like, you asked why, why I practice and it's like, well, how could I not, how could I not be in the space that I'm in right now? Like, it would be. Doesn't make sense, right?
Nicole: And I cried a lot leaving the Christian church. I cried. I felt so confused every Sunday.
I felt like a slut and a whore for not showing up in that church, you know? And so it was messy. And my journey into non monogamy has been similar, right? Of mess and confusion and, and fear. But now that I'm here, I just really can't fathom only. exploring intimacy with one person. It's like asking me to laugh with one soul for the rest of my life.
Like how could, I can't, I can't fathom.
Jase: Yeah. Why would you? Yeah.
Nicole: Right. And that's to say there might be periods of different seasons. I think that's an important thing to mention, too, is when there's different stressors and things in your life, there might be periods where sex is not on the table at all.
I'm actively stressed. These systems are right here. There is no desire. Again, eroticism being play, you can't play When there is stress and chaos in your world, right? So there might be seasons where I don't have sex with anybody. There might be seasons where I have sex with one person. There might be seasons where I'm deeply in an ocean of people and understanding that all of that is relationship anarchy because I'm constantly examining the power structures and trying to be as intentional as possible with the people around me.
And so allowing sex to happen. space for myself and all people to really have that sort of flow and the ways that things change over time. I mean, your eroticism will change over time. And so holding space for that sort of flexibility makes me feel really free and secure to know that it can all ebb and flow.
And I know kind of where I'm going with my value sets in terms of examining power structures and being so community focused.
Jase: Yeah, that makes sense. There's so much uncertainty and it's really just about being comfortable with that and, or being uncomfortable and just knowing that that discomfort is real and you have to experience it and not avoid it and be, and be honest with yourself about it.
Yeah, I definitely have had that experience. Relationships where, like, I wasn't honest with myself or that person, and that ends up causing more pain, ultimately, and takes up a lot of time and space and energy, and, so, yeah.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I mean, the rates of infidelity, somewhere between, 40 quoted from Jessica Fern when she was on the podcast.
I've seen Esther Perel and Dan Savage talk about upwards in the 70%. I mean, it was so interesting, I guess, cause I was processing with one of my colleagues who, you know, I was talking about my life and the way I live it. And he said, you know, a lot of people don't want to go where you're going because it's so full of change and chaos.
Right. And I sit back, I'm like, I don't know, the 50 to 70 percent of lying of infidelity and 50 percent of divorces feels like a lot of chaos and instability. I don't know, man. Like I, I'd rather hit it on, look at it in the face and look at death and say, okay, I'm going to die. What does it mean to actually embrace that and live this moment right here, right now?
Hey, dear lover, I don't know if I'm going to want to have sex with you in a year, 10 years, let alone 20. I have no idea, but I love you. And I want to be in relationship with you and flex with you through all of those different changes. And let's hold hands in that. Oof, that actually feels super secure to me that looking in the face of it and really embracing that inevitability of change rather than secrecy and the, and the, the lying and the, Oh, yeah.
Jase: I can relate to being in that place of like, knowing how hard it is to fully expose yourself to someone, and yeah, a lot of societal scripts, like, You know, you, you, you confess to the priest and that's like, you know, you pray to God about some things and some things you just don't tell your partner and that's something that's like really accepted to like talk to your friends about certain things, but not tell your partner how you actually feel about them, you know, like, because you don't want to change the dynamic, you know, I think it's really hard for people to overcome that.
And I think it really does come down to scarcity and being afraid of being alone and it takes time and it takes. energy to be vulnerable, but there is like abundance on the other side of that for sure.
Nicole: Yeah, definitely. Which, speaking of abundance, ha ha ha.
Jase: Great transition.
Nicole: Yep. What are the joys that you've experienced in relationship anarchy?
Jase: Feeling freer.
Nicole: Oh, yeah.
Jase: Just feeling like more opportunity and excitement and, and not limiting myself, I can build the community that I want and like, yeah, I think it's, it's just really revolutionary and that really excites me. And yeah, just, just feeling the synthesis of like my values and my philosophies and the way that I practice music.
My life. That's like super important to me. And it's taken me a lot of time to find like the actual ways to practice these things, right? You know, so I think that that's just like, I feel like I'm on the cusp of it. Like, it's hard to like, really have like, tangible things to bring into this. This question, but I feel excited that like, I think I have the language, I have the content and like the resources that I need to have these conversations and yeah, I think, like, like I said, I related a lot to queerness and I think just like being queer has opened me up to people who, who get it or are willing to get this, you know, even if they haven't talked about it yet, they're willing to, to have these conversations.
And I think that's really exciting.
Nicole: Yeah. I mean, I definitely hear you having the language. I mean, you and I have been talking and going back and forth and I feel deeply seen and understood in so many different ways, right? What a joy, even in our own dynamic, to feel, you know, a complete stranger from across the world, right?
Like, you get it. You get it. You're not, yeah, I get it.
Jase: Yeah. It's interesting though, because like, I thought, I thought about this a little bit because I knew that we would. relate because I've heard all these, like, I've heard a lot of your thoughts, you know, from listening to the podcast. So it's interesting how that dynamic comes in, like, but I, but I agree.
And I really appreciate you reflecting that because it's, yeah, um, I actually have a background in social work. I haven't talked about that yet. So like, um, I really like Interacting with people and like learning new things from them and it's just really exciting and I like you said earlier about being a mirror, you know, like when you when you meet somebody who kind of like has, like, it's sparked something in them, you know, when you're having the conversation.
That's just so exciting and bouncing off of each other is really exciting.
Nicole: Yeah, I usually, you know, again, the, um, Feminist psychology movement, they would talk about five good things that come in relationships. And one of the ones that I've always loved and held on to is the word zest, that energy you have.
And I have, I notice again, like that example of the person when I'm getting coffee and they say, I could never have a metamorph and I kind of shut down my energy goes lower. Right. And so I definitely watch in these various Conversations I'm recording, some of them feel heavier and pull me down and some of them bring life.
And I can feel that when I talk to other relationship anarchists, I'm like, Oh yeah. And I usually come out of these conversations going, hell yeah, the future is so exciting. Like, where are we going? I'm in community. It's great. And I learned so much in these spaces, right? I have an understanding of this, but then I can't.
Co collaborate with you. I hear your perspectives. We grow in relationship together. And so I always watch when I feel that zest for life as an indication of the relationships that, that bring more pleasure and joy. And I definitely feel that in the relationship anarchy conversations, they've been truly one of my most favorite things I've done in this podcast space.
Jase: That's really awesome. Yeah. I appreciate you bringing in The zest is like a concept because it's really, I think it's really important to notice when you feel that like excitement for life, like that is a really big deal. I mean, that's, that's going to keep you going. It's going to give you purpose and energy.
And yeah, I think that that's. Yeah, it's really just, uh, it's really important to tune into that, for sure.
Nicole: Yeah, when I remember reading about relationship anarchy, I didn't have any of the words for it, but I remember reading, and I went outside, and I started skipping down the alley of my apartment complex, being like, yeah, this is actually so good!
And I had no words for that joy or what any of that really meant, but when I look back, there was such a felt zest, such a spark. And some of my, um, dissertation interviewees had talked about it like a bell that just rang like. Something about it spoke to me. God, it sounds divine when you think about it that way, the religion, all that, you know, whatever it is, something about it spoke to me and I felt it in my body so much so that I was joyfully skipping down the street.
And that's important to listen to, particularly in these systems that are so against us. It's right to have a sort of connection where I felt this joy and expansion and it, it just, it makes me so excited about the worlds to come as I hear more people getting excited about these ideas and feeling that same joy and resonance and, and really what we can co create together as a community in this space.
Jase: Yeah. Yeah. It's got me thinking a lot about like just being exposed to it more and having these conversations more and how that kind of can just snowball and make you feel like the energy can kind of keep going and. Yeah, just reflecting a little bit about like where I've been at and like what I have been engaging with and when I engage with media that feels like easier generally is kind of the stuff that is, you know, prescribing those same kinds of relationships and ideas and then like, Yeah, I, I, like, I feel like I need to take a break from being so critical, you know, all the time.
But then when I engage with, like, your content, like the podcast or, or Amryl's content, um, or, uh, Thicky Comrade is another person that you, uh, interviewed, I, I like their content. Um, we're friends and, um, yeah, yeah, they're really great. Yeah. Like, it's exciting. It, like, it gives you that energy to, like, kind of push forward and.
Yeah, I think that that's something that I'm taking away from this conversation.
Nicole: Mm hmm. And as a therapist, that right there, think about all of my sad, hurting, depressed clients. I'm always asking, what is your relationship? Because when you have relationships where you're seeing the values, all that, you feel that excitement.
And so there is something missing. I could just hold an abundance of space for that. I mean, of course, it's also the systems. It's also when you don't have enough money, when you have all these, you know, but also the relationships you surround yourself with. If I could get any message out there is be critical about the people you surround yourself with because it does create your perspective of reality, like hands down
Jase: for sure.
Yeah.
Nicole: Well, our last question is, what do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy?
Jase: You're doing such a good job of putting all these ideas out there. It's like, I don't really feel like I have too many profound things to say.
Nicole: You do! You do! You're a part of the movement, yeah.
Jase: Just that it's possible, you know, just, it's not chaotic.
It is chaotic, but it's not, it's not any more chaotic than what we already experienced. I think that it's like, it's work, it's effort, but the heaviness that comes with being so isolated in this culture, I think is way more difficult to bear than, you know, than what this can bring, you know? And it's, it has been really hard for me to think about these things and look around and see how difficult it is to, to unlearn these things and how, how basically as a, as a whole society, it's, yeah, it feels impossible, but like there's so much opportunity within smaller communities and smaller things that you can, you can work with.
And I think that's. Just, just going as small scale as you can and taking it from there, I think is the biggest thing.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. And it gets easier. Yeah. I feel pretty confident in naming that one, I think. Um, you know, you don't run the marathon having never ran the mile and, uh, as someone who doesn't run, that mile is really hard for me.
I don't run. I dance. That's what I do. I don't do any running. I hate running. The only cardio I do is dancing and biking. It's joyful based .
Jase: No, I feel you. I feel like it. I, I, I respect running as like a, I love pain because I love pain and I did, I did running runners high school.
Nicole: Yeah.
Jase: I under, I I didn't like it, but I, I I kept doing it. So there's something to be said about that, but right.
Nicole: Yeah. Or even, you know, I teach yoga. That's something I think about the postures that I get into now that I could have never done. Right. And one of the main sayings of yoga being, uh, practice and all is coming. Practice and all is coming.
I couldn't have touched my toes when I first started to the things I can do now, right? And so I think and also yoga being in my opinion a pain also practice every stretch I've taken has obviously there's there's a level of pain that is actually causing you harm But there is that edge of I'm gonna stretch a little bit.
Ooh You know and then to realize when I look back Wow Look at what I can do with my body and I find this to be very similar to where there is that edging where you're not getting out of your window of tolerance and and sometimes I do and I realize I Often that's when I'm in the space of this never works.
How could I ever, no way. And I'm like, okay, I've reached past my window of tolerance. I need to take my nap. I need to have my, my candy bar and restart the day. I don't know. You know? And so I, so I get clear on that practice of when I've hit that window, cause I'm noticing thoughts. It's a very clear pattern of feeling it's impossible and a shutdown response.
But in general, that practice of edging and edging and edging. Wow. I'm so much more flexible today with relationship anarchy. And so I think that that's what gives me hope in that same way of practice and all is coming. I am so excited to see where I'm going to be at if I'm lucky enough to live on this planet for another 10 years.
Can you imagine?
Jase: Yeah. Oh. Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah.
Jase: Yeah. I think that that's, it's really important to see where you've come from and that like you have, and, and yoga is a great analogy for it. And I think, uh, you also rock climb. I've heard you talk about that.
Nicole: I love rock climbing.
Jase: And that's a, that's a great one for like, okay, you're pushing past your comfort zone.
Like this is scary. And you see the progress that you've made and like, it's, it's really tangible. Yeah. It really is about like being okay with that, like fear and discomfort and knowing that, like, look at where I've come from. Like if I keep doing this, it's, I'm going to end up. somewhere else and it's going to be good.
Like, you know,
Nicole: absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. It brings me so much joy to look forward to that future.
Jase: Totally.
Nicole: Well, Jase, I'm going to take a deep breath with you
and then I want to check in with you, Jase. Is there anything else that you want to share with the listeners before we head towards that closing question?
Jase: Just to keep being curious. I think that that's the most exciting thing to me is like open mindedness, curiosity, And critical, a critical lens are really important to finding what you really want in life.
Nicole: Yeah. Curiosity is such a good word. So much to explore a lifetime with that one.
Well, it's been such a joy to have you on here. If it feels good to you, I can guide us towards our closing question.
Jase: Sounds good. Thanks.
Nicole: So the one question that I ask everyone on the podcast is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Jase: Wow. Hmm. That's such a good question. I think the thing that I am the most connected to is deconstructing gender.
So I think that like, I really would love for people to normalize that and not just in like, uh, not just in like, you have to be non binary or like, you have to be gender queer to to feel more freedom with this. I think it's like deconstructing gender is, is a, is good for everyone. And I just want people to just have more space for that as much as possible.
If you feel like you're a mass person and you want to present that way, but. You could still, you know, wear an earring or like fingernails or be vulnerable emotionally or, you know, be physically intimate with your other mass friends. Like there's so many ways that even queer people still fall into those like prescriptions and I've had to like continually push those boundaries for myself and unlearn those things.
So yeah, I just think mess around with gender.
Nicole: Yeah, play the expansiveness of it all. Right? Ooh, for sure. For sure. Yeah. That feels like a crucial part of relationship anarchy. If at minimum your relationship to self, right? Let alone the ways that you're saying in your communities, you've seen this and it's been reinforced, right?
I mean, talk about the power structures. And when we look at Look back historically, even concept skirts, dresses, make, I mean, ah, they was never so boxed in the way that we exist in our current society. And so I think that's deeply related to relationship anarchy.
Jase: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for letting me share that.
Nicole: Of course. Yeah. It's been such a joy to have you on the podcast today and, and truly, I really love these conversations and the spaces that we go and it's such an honor to be in community with fellow relationship anarchists like yourself.
Jase: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, Nicole.
Nicole: Yeah. Okay. So for the listeners that have been connecting with you and want to find more of your content, where can they find you?
Jase: Uh, yeah, I'm on Instagram. My Instagram is public. Uh, I share my DJ mixes there. I also share Physical art that I've made, visual art, um, it's Brax Beats, B R A K S B E A T S.
Nicole: Great. And I'll have all of that linked below in the show notes so that people can find you.
And again, I just want to say a big thank you to joining me today in this space.
Jase: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
Nicole: Yeah.
Jase: It was so fun. I mean, yeah, it's great. It's so great.
Nicole: If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast, and head on over to modernanarchypodcast.
com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.
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