Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole. On today's episode, we have a psychotherapist, Jessica Fern. Join us for a conversation about polyamory as a catalyst for liberation. Together we talk about learning to go low and slow with NRE. Exploring the protectors of our hearts, and the much needed updates to attachment theory.
Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice, supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.
Dear listener. Oh, I am so excited to be sharing this episode with Jessica, with all of you dear listeners. The paradigm shift of polyamory, wow, this is certainly something that I have explored in my dissertation on relationship anarchy and was so delighted to talk to Jessica about, because it is what it is quite a trip, right? This is why I always use that metaphor of the psychedelic journey. There are so many crossovers between the two, and that is why when I'm working with clients who are exploring non monogamy, who are exploring polyamory, I use my training in psychedelic integration therapy, right? How are we preparing for the psychedelic journey?
What do we need to know about ourselves, about our needs, about our ability to communicate during the psychedelic journey? Whoa. Um, there's a lot to prepare, and when you're in it, there's a lot to process. Those heightened states of attachment that happen on a psychedelic. Well, I think those happen in polyamory too, as you're navigating new landscapes and truly a new paradigm beyond mononormativity.
And so that psychedelic integration therapy is something that deeply informs my work with non monogamous and polyamorous clients and That is also why, next week, I'm going to be having a episode exploring my Psychedelic Jealousy Guide, because, Woo! Jealousy, wow, what an emotion, and, you know, when it's your first psychedelic trip, sure, the intensity is there, all of that, right?
But even if you've done many psychedelic journeys, It is important to stay humble because you can have a bad trip, right? Any psychonaut will tell you that, that they've been there, they've had that experience. And polyamory can be the same way. You can practice it for years and then still, those feelings of jealousy may come up, right?
And so it's all about the set and setting, which we'll be exploring more of next week. But today's conversation is so important. such an important one for understanding that, dear listener, you're not alone. Gosh, I wish someone could have said that to me when I first started down this journey, right?
Reading books and trying to find more information and just feeling like there wasn't enough content out there, right? Jessica talks about having a similar experience, you know, starting to work with non monogamous clients and then searching and searching for more information. And so, Dear listener, I just want you to know that you are not alone.
There are therapists like myself, like Jessica, who are updating attachment theory, who are updating what is possible in love, in sex, in romance, however you define that, my relationship anarchist out there. And you, dear listener, You are a part of the movement, and I am so, so happy that you are here.
Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can check out my offerings and resources at modernanarchypodcast. com linked in the show notes below. And I want to say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters, You are supporting the long term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible for all people, so thank you.
If you want to join the Patreon community, get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, then you can head on over to patreon. com slash modernanarchypodcasts. Also linked in the show notes below. And with that, dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love and let's tune in to today's episode.
So then the first question I like to ask each guest is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Jessica: Uh, simply, I would say, well, I'm Jessica Fern, I am a psychotherapist, and I'm an author.
Nicole: Mm hmm. And I'm excited to have you on the space today. Thank you. Yes. Yes. I think that the first place I'd love to start is you had written in and said, polyamory as a catalyst for liberation.
And. You bet. I think in this space, I really like to hold the guest's personal story, and so, you know, we have the full hour routine, you know, I'd love if you take the space to tell, you know, your journey of what polyamory and that catalyst for liberation has looked like in your life.
Jessica: Thank you. Yeah. Well, I've told this story of, you know, it was really as a psychotherapist, there was this one week in this one summer that like three different couples I was working with all brought up the topic of wanting to open up.
And quickly, I was like, I don't know what to do, you know, like there's, there's no training on this. So, and they told me the books they were reading. So I just like quickly did my homework and started to dive into what was available then. And it was a big aha for me personally, not just professionally, you know, and how to help my clients.
But I was like, Oh, this is me. And it's so funny because I was or at that moment, I was in a monogamous marriage, but I had already actually been non monogamous. There was just language for me in that. And I was like, oh, I actually have this rich history of experiencing emotional non monogamy, physical non monogamy, like didn't even realize it was just kind of what was.
the same way, like one of my aunts, my aunt and uncle were like literally hippies at Woodstock. She always kind of had a boyfriend. It just, there was no name for it. It wasn't, it was no polyamory. It just, what was right. Yeah. Right. So, but at that moment, I felt like in reading, I was just like, Whoa, I could feel this capacity in myself awaken.
Right. And it wasn't, it was this capacity of like, Oh, I already know how to do this. I have the capacity to love more than one person at the same time. It felt like it liberated something already there and yet dormant. Yeah. Right. But it wasn't just the heart and the expansion of multiple loves. It also felt like it liberated my sexuality because in it I could feel it was a very shamanic experience.
Honestly, I just feel the centuries of female repression on sexuality, right? Of like, Oh, you know, ownership of women and us as property, right? Like we talk about what year was the liberation of slavery. Well, guess what? It wasn't until years after, I think five years later, that women were then could not considered property of their husbands in this country.
Right. So like, right. Like it was only 1850 or 40 something, right. That women are actually their own humans. You know, in this society, right? Right. So it felt like a liberation of that as well, of patriarchy, of being able to really say, how do I want to love and how do I want to be a sexual being on my own terms?
Of course, with the consideration of those around me. But also on my own terms.
Nicole: Right.
Jessica: Yeah.
Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, even darker, you know, marital rape wasn't illegal in all 50 states until 1993.
Jessica: There you go. Right. It's like, let's get even more fresh with that one.
Nicole: Right.
Jessica: Exactly. Right. Like in our time.
Nicole: Right. Yeah. Yeah. So that's still something I think we're all unpacking in ways, whether we're conscious of it or not, how deeply laden that is, particularly for women, right? In this country.
Jessica: Mm hmm. Exactly.
Nicole: Yeah. And so I can imagine that, you know, You know, in my dissertation for relationship anarchy, I was talking about the paradigm shift.
And I remember reading that in your recent book, you know, Polly wise. And I'm curious if you could speak to the paradigm shift that you went through. I know your eyes already opened, you know, the ego death. I do a psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. So that combo of like the amount of ego deaths I've gone through in this paradigm shift, like Wow, I'd love to hear a little bit of your experience with that.
Jessica: Yeah, and you know, it's been a theme through my life, right, is to start, like, before even looking at the paradigm of monogamy, just looking at paradigms in general, because I didn't have, The privilege to be, you know, like neatly tied into the norms growing up, right? And now I feel like that was the privilege actually, cause I got to be on the edge of certain paradigms and then leave them or question them and deconstruct them, right?
Um, and my training and love of narrative therapy is a lot deconstructing paradigms, right? Reconstructing. So I already had that as a foundation. So once this came around, I was like, great, let's bring it on the chopping board. Yeah. And it's, it's, um, so some of it's fun, you know, to, oh, why do I assume this?
Why do we assume this? Why do we take this for granted? All these monogamous beliefs and norms, um, and really they're, they're baked into just romance and love in general, you know, like that, that relationship escalator. Yep. Um, so in some ways it was really fun. And yet I think there's ways I don't know if I can think of any clear examples now, but, of course, that that doesn't mean it's always been easy.
Right. You know, having look internally, like, okay, what is what are my, what is my stance on hierarchy within this partnership? And where do I extend that? Expect certain things or not. Why is that? You know?
Nicole: Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.
Jessica: Where does a part of me still wanna be the best, the favorite, the most special.
Nicole: Yeah.
Exactly.
Jessica: Exactly. And it, it doesn't all go away. I think that's what I want people to understand too. Like just because we embrace when paradigm doesn't mean the other one is gone. I think it's still, and we still might want certain aspects of the first one, right? It's still okay to choose it, but I say choose it consciously instead of that default.
Nicole: Right, exactly.
Jessica: Or when the parts that aren't helpful are still like, Oh yeah, that's still in my nervous system. Okay, but what do I actually want to choose and align with?
Nicole: Yeah, totally. Yeah, I think when we look at other systems in the world, we acknowledge that That is not something we're ever going to completely get out of ourselves, right?
There's an active reflection piece of how are these systems internalized? And what sort of work do I need to do to unpack those, right? So I think holding the same sort of paradigm for our relationships, knowing that we've grown up in such a puritanical society that has, you Deep value based judgments on if you have relationships with more than one person that takes an active dismantling, right?
And if you choose to have one relationship, beautiful, right? But the judgment towards anyone else that does, right, that's an active, you know, unpacking of the different systems that we've all internalized living under.
Jessica: Exactly. And it's so, you know, the irony or the, um, hypocrisy is so interesting because you're like, well, secretly we can have these multiple relationships.
We all know that's been going on. I know. It's not a secret that there's secrets. Um, but to publicly, you know, to aboveboard, to transparently be this way, like, how dare we? I know.
Nicole: I know. I had seen Esther Perel talk with Dan Savage and had quoted that infidelity was as high as 70%.
Jessica: There's multiple studies. And depending on the survey, it's like, I've seen 20 to like 50, 55 percent, but I believe she's seen a study that can be as high as 70 percent.
Nicole: Sure. Well, it's so hard because who wants to self report that? Right.
Jessica: And that's who's self reporting. Right. So you see, like, this is an under reported number, most likely.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Jessica: Yeah. And that's a good thing. People just for people listening, that's people who are saying they're in a monogamous relationship and are reporting that they're cheating or have cheated.
Nicole: Right. Exactly. Exactly. And I think part of the reality is that there's this assumption that we can't have multiple relationships.
And I think this is where my paradigm of relationship anarchy starts to creep in because it's like, uh, Uh, it was the New York Times Magazine came out with an article recently. Did you see that one where it was like, how did polyamory become so popular?
Jessica: I think I did.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. So I was on their Instagram page and decided to go through the comments just to kind of like get a sense, you know, and I could feel my body like increasing in rage as I was going through these comments.
I was like, taking some deep breaths. I'm like, I'm going to talk to Jessica about this. It's going to be okay. Um, but one of them was just like, I don't understand how people have time for multiple relationships in what world, you know? And I'm like, I don't mean to pause you here, my friend, but you have multiple relationships.
Right.
Jessica: Yeah, completely. I mean, I feel that way about children. Like, I have one child and it's such an incredible relationship. And I'm just like, I don't know how you have two or three or five. Yeah. I mean, we can figure out the same thing, right? Like, how do you do that?
Nicole: No, exactly, which I think once we start getting to that paradigm, I think that's how we're also dismantling things like, Oh, I'm single, right?
This paradigm of, Oh, I have no other relationships that are meaningful. And again, if we're talking about narratives and. frames, right? What sort of frame does that put yourself in when you see yourself as a single being that is constantly lacking another versus, wow, I have this abundance of community of relationships with all varying degrees of intimacy and things that we do together, right?
That's a radical frame shift.
Jessica: It really is. Right. And it's sort of like taking that idea that relates the way we use relationship. That word is a synonym for being in a romantic partnership. Like, no,
Nicole: which is maybe part of the positionality of us as therapists. Right. It's like, Oh, what's, you know, What's your relationship with the client?
How's the rapport going? Right? Those sort of things. And so I think we start to think in that sort of framework of understanding that relationships are much more expansive than we use in the day to day language.
Jessica: Yeah, right. Exactly.
Or just before this probably will be recorded, you and I were talking about our cats.
Like those are attachment based relationships. Even not just with humans, like the non human Relationships that we have with nature, with animals, with aspects of our life.
Nicole: Sure. Absolutely. And I've even heard professors who have pushed back and said, no, but like dyadic attachment, that's the norm. That's the norm.
Jessica: Yeah. And that's a very much based on this culture nuclear family, which is a newer concept historically for humans. You know, so that's based in the nuclear family. This idea that the attachment is mom and child. And that's just not how it works. Even attachment theory has, you know, grown and evolved right since its inception to go.
Oh, yeah, there's multiple attachments that a child has to multiple caretakers, not in not just parents, and it's not just always mom.
Nicole: Right.
Jessica: Exactly.
Nicole: So starting to deconstruct those paradigms, right? And then when we're thinking about those attachments, at least for me personally, and a lot of clients I work with, it is radically uncomfortable to start to get outside of these paradigms and realize that, wow, okay, I can love multiple people.
My partners can love multiple people. And that doesn't take away from the meaning of our attachment. Yeah. And something that I've been thinking about is just the ways that we have an example of this with children often. Right? Yeah.
Jessica: And this is a good, like, yes, and because most people I know, and of course there's exceptions.
I don't know everyone, but when there's been a lot of siblings. The children will have things that like, Oh, they didn't get all the attention they needed.
Nicole: Yeah.
Jessica: That is a thing, right? Or they were raised by older siblings a lot, or there's an older sibling that became more like a parent to younger siblings.
Right? So there is a limit on how much attention and time we have to offer our children or our partners. So it's like, yeah, there's a true like, oh, my heart can love many people, but how many people can I actually stay in an attachment kind of relationship where I'm attuned and responsive and available to them?
There is limits on that. Absolutely.
Nicole: Which makes me want to ask, how do you navigate that? I have been personally stepping into a more like friendship understanding of it, right? I have some partners I see once a year, once a month, you know, just like I have friends. But how do you kind of deal with that limitation of our time and energy?
Jessica: Yeah, I just know my limits. That's a big part of it. And it's not just based on number of partners. It's like, what's my workload? What's my son has a certain, you know, he's in a certain place in his development. Other responsibilities that I have right at around my home, around, around the relationships that I have.
So, and I tend to, I'm a much more like introverted kind of even maybe a hermit. I'm not an extrovert. I love people. I love deep connection. Right. And so for me, it's like my limits that too. But, you know, that might change, right? Some also know that there's different things in my life that will ebb and flow.
And previously my limit was three. Yeah. So what I recommend is there's not a magic number, right? They just being like doing a life inventory. Like what do you actually have the bandwidth for?
Um, that even includes yourself, that relationship, primary relationship to self.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. Part of the liberation piece is, you know, when you are on the relationship escalator, there is a level of going through the motions to a degree of not having to have these types of conversations or any sort of insight into, okay, what are my limits?
What's, you know, refreshing and bringing me energy versus where do I need this boundary? Because it's with the one person we're going, we're going, we're going. And so part of this Paradigm shift is actually what you're saying right there of, okay, wow, I have a buffet table of delicious options. And if I eat all of it right now, I'm going to have a stomach ache, right?
Yeah, right. So what do I want to eat today? And how am I going to take care of myself and my body and my stomach? Spirit, and that requires so much reflection internally and understanding. And then on top of that, the ability to communicate that clearly with the people around you, those are significant skills to build.
Jessica: Yes, absolutely. Right. To know oneself first, to, um, be honest enough and mature enough, honestly, to admit our limits. Right. And not see that as a failure. Right. And then, yeah, how do I communicate to my partner clearly, lovingly, right.
Nicole: And speaking of women's liberation, right. Talk about centuries of people pleasing, over functioning, over accommodating, people pleasing.
Jessica: Yeah. The, I'm an amazing partner. I've been doing a lot of work on this part of me. That's my last relationship. Of like, Oh, the part of me that's like, I'm going to make it so easy to be in relationship with.
Nicole: Yeah. How is that unpacking going for you?
Jessica: Where are you sitting? My, my part, my current partner of almost two years, he's had to deal with a lot.
Not that I'm difficult, you know, like with the, like, Oh, I'm not going to make it so easy. Right. Where I'm over functioning. There has to be more of this balance.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. And what does that process of learning to celebrate, accept that part of yourself look like? How have you been kind of like stretching in that way?
Jessica: Yeah, well, first celebrating like, oh, there was good reason this part came about.
Nicole: Right.
Jessica: Not just to store. I mean, it is an inheritance for sure, like a legacy burden, but within my personal history, like, yeah, good reason. This part came about and really honoring thanking this part. Like, thank you for looking after me this way.
Thank you for. Being able to do all these things. And now I think of, um, parts that are like expired food, right? Like for the expiration date, these parts, right. Or food is there to nourish us, but then after the expiration date, it can be harmful. Exactly. So, you know, dialoguing with this part of just like, okay, it's actually now getting in the way of me being in healthy relationship with me, me actually being in the kind of relationship I want with somebody else.
Right. So we need to let more out. We need to let my hurt or my needs or my feelings be more upfront.
Nicole: Right.
Yeah. It's a sweater I've outgrown,
you know,
Jessica: I'm, I'm, yeah, exactly. Right. Exactly.
Nicole: Yeah. But I love that frame of having the compassion for yourself. Cause I feel like that's often in the field of psychology, something that gets forgotten because of the pathological nature of the field, right.
If something's wrong with you. you versus, Oh, this is actually highly adaptive to the situations, the systems. And so having that frame so that we're not in conflict with ourself, but rather that, you know, embrace of understanding and compassion.
Jessica: Right. Understanding these parts came about for good reason or same thing, our attachment style that they're insecure.
Like that, that's not your fault. That happened because of legitimate things you've gone through. Right. Right. And these are all survival strategies. So to really honor them, but then also update them.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
And I think a little bit of my critiques as I've been going through my training with internal family systems and hearts, you know, is like, yeah.
The acknowledgement of systems and how we internalize those problematic parts of the system, you know, and so maybe with one of my clients, you know, like we had named it like the negative societal messaging part. Yeah. Cool. You know, so that we can at least differentiate between the ways that, you know, this internalized mononormativity is existing in me.
It's not necessarily my part per se, but the way that society influences me. And I think that moving through non monogamy, there has been so many times where I have been stretched. To a level of maybe, you know, fear or dysregulation in my body. And then that part goes, well, look, this is why you should be monogamous.
Look, this is what, this is too scary. Like come back to the safe space, you know? And I think a parts perspective has been so helpful to hold that. Okay. Yeah, that is one part of myself saying that. And the other part is rooted in this value system of expansive love and sexual self governance and all these other pieces and being able to have that dialogue to hold the nuance of both because frequently I've found those two parts in conflict with one another throughout this journey.
Jessica: Absolutely. Right. And it might be multiple parts. You know, but they get polarized or in conflict, right? So P for people to identify which parts of me are holding the internalized narratives and discourses of whatever, of whatever the norm is.
Nicole: Yeah. Which is making me think just in terms of attachment, right?
Those first stretching of, okay, I can have multiple partners, right. And have that sort of attachment with multiple people. When I go back to my childhood, I was talking to my mom recently about this. Uh, she got pregnant with my sister and apparently when she had my sister, I was like, put the baby back in the belly.
I don't want her. I don't want to share with her, you know, and had that same sort of reaction that I had originally to polyamory of those comments. I know! And look at we have, and that might piss some people off to like compare these sort of things, but like, look at what a beautiful example of how children, we go through this space of thinking, I want all of the attention, right?
So, wow, we can share the additional piece there, like you said, of, Also, yeah, time and energy is limited, right? So at the other end of the spectrum, it's not like love, um, it's not like time and energy is abundant, you know, as love is, right? There are limitations to that, but we do have such a clear example of learning to stretch to new attachments from early childhood.
Jessica: Totally. So, right. I think a lot of people, when they open up and they're switching paradigms into non monogamy, they'll get, have this trigger back to that moment. I mean, I've regressed back with people to these moments of like when their other sibling was born. It's, you're not the only one. Yeah. Yeah. It comes up a lot and people might not like this either, but I've thought of like other primates.
I think they often wait, it's like five to seven years between babies and us is the animals that we are. We had, because of the nuclear family idea, like we kind of want to cluster most of our kids together and then we move through time together as one family and that might be great and wonderful and what's needed.
And many times that can work, but I think there's also times where it's like, Oh, individual children might have needed. Five or six or seven years before they were ready for the next baby to come along and they were moving on in their development and didn't have the same needs of the parents, you know, right?
Yeah. So similarly, that parallel to of, I also encourage when people are polyamorous. Like, yeah, it's okay to have a period of just, okay, this is my new partner. Even I might have previous partners, but like solidify yourselves. That's okay. You don't have to like keep collecting new partners, like create that secure bond together before you then bring in new people, because it can be so disruptive and hard to manage.
Nicole: Yeah. You want to speak to the complicated drug that NRE is?
Jessica: Totally. It's quite a complicated drug. It's a great drug,
Nicole: right?
Jessica: Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So do you want me to launch into that? I would love, how do you manage that?
Nicole: I'm still learning how to get better at that one myself.
Jessica: It really is. And like you said, you referenced like psychedelic, you know, work similar, like.
With experience, you learn how to hold your center or self while still on the substance. And that takes like practice. Yes, it does. And I, I see this parallel with new relationship energy, right? Like, whoa, you can, we can be totally swept away by that trip. And it's incredible. And then we forget the rest of the world that's around us.
Partners, responsibilities, sleep, health, you know? Yeah. But I think with experience, we can learn how to like, be an NRE and also stay grounded. But it does take practice.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Which reminds me of the paradigms of psychedelics, right? You start low and slow when you meet that exciting person and you suddenly want to spend 24 seven with them.
Maybe we don't do that, right? Maybe we see them once a week or whatever sort of spacing out, you know, you need, despite that strong desire to say, I want this drug every single day, please give me this dopamine hit. Right.
Jessica: Yeah, totally. And seeing it for what it is like, oh, this is designed to make me obsessed.
Quite literally with this person, the base to bond with them, to meet with them, to unify with them. Yes.
Nicole: I know. Yeah.
Jessica: So I think it's a balance. Like, I don't think we should, you know, say, Oh, don't enjoy it. It's like, yeah, have fun with it, but like stay grounded and try to be sane in it too.
Nicole: Mm hmm. And maybe you can speak to the beauty of continual NRE.
You know, maybe, maybe we don't call it NRE, right? But the joy of novelty when you do have a diverse community of partners, right? You, at least for me, right? I don't live with any of my partners. So being able to see one on this night and another on the different night, like that change up of diversity does continue to spark this, Oh, wow.
Jessica: I'm so excited to see this person. Exactly. I think especially when we don't live with partners, even in monogamy or exclusivity. It really extends that new relationship energy, which can be nice.
Nicole: Yeah.
Jessica: And in non monogamy, absolutely. Or polyamory, like we do kind of create like a higher baseline of some of these hormones because we're not getting it all the time with one person.
So that can be lovely. We can coast longer, I think, than an exclusive relationship does. The only thing though, is that it's when those hormones. A bait that we start to see some real things that didn't show up in the honeymoon phase. And so it can extend that as well, right? So sometimes I can. Oh, it's not till 3 years.
I'm realizing like, these are huge red flags that might not be sustainable for me, right? With this person that just kind of weren't really there before.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah, which makes me want to talk about the space of. Comparison, right? Oh my God. It's so hard to not compare when you're in NRE, right? And you're hit, you're having this intense drug and you look back at the partners that you've had for X amount of years and you're not having that same feeling, which, you know, we're having the ground in that we have experience with that.
And, and knowing that we're in that altered state of consciousness to not again, right after the psychedelic trip, we don't quit the job and move to the commune, despite how many clients I've actually had who literally that's. They're like, you know what, this is all messed up. And I'm like, we're going to take some deep breaths.
And, um, but on the flip side, right, like you're saying, when things get stretched out, it might take longer. And also when you do have multiple partners in this space, you might start to realize discrepancies between one treating you in a way that's more in alignment with your values. Then the other, which we so easily do with friendship, right?
We so easily do that with friendship models where you, you know, go through the world of starting to connect with someone who's maybe in more alignment. And that actually causes kind of a little bit of a dwindling, right? Given time and energy is limited of those other connections. But I think this gets really tricky when it comes to love and sexual relationships.
Jessica: It is tricky, right, because on one hand I would say, yeah, it can suck to compare or be on the wrong side of that comparison equation where you're not the partner that does the thing. Yeah. So the comparison can be difficult. It can cause problems and it can awaken. I mean it can liberate on the other hand, right, because it might expose, Oh, here's a deal breaker.
I didn't realize. Or here, like I've had this happen where I was like, Oh, this person is showing me actually like a non negotiable need. That's kind of not been met for a long, too long. Like I now can't live. In a relationship without this need, so I don't go to my partner that hasn't been meeting that need and say, well, this one has, why aren't you right?
I wouldn't make that direct comparison, but it's an opportunity to say, Hey, I'm realizing there's this thing that I need. Can we get there? Are you willing? Are you wanting? Are you capable? So it creates the opportunity to level up, right? And also not all those relationships last.
Nicole: Yeah,
Jessica: exactly.
Nicole: Which is heartbreaking.
And I think again, you know, as a psychotherapist, I hold this space where it's like, All people are capable, right? That we have to believe in that and the work that we do, the possibility for growth and transformation. But wow, what does it mean to slow down and realize that, Oh, maybe because of this person's value system, they might not actually ever get there as capable as they are, right?
They're not as interested in doing that sort of deeper internal work to better their communication, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Right. That's such a Painful realization.
Jessica: It is right that we might love someone and go. I know ultimately, theoretically, you're capable, but the pace at which you might be doing that work might not actually be fast enough right to be have our relationship be in the healthy place.
It needs to be. But a lot of times we also have people who aren't willing, like they might know there's work to do and they would benefit, their partners would benefit, and they, they're not doing it. Or they might say they want to, they might say they will, but in action they're not following through.
Nicole: Right.
Jessica: Exactly.
Nicole: And again, the simplicity in some ways, I think this is also painful in a lot of ways, but the simplicity of going through this monogamous world. Where if I found this with someone, you know, there wasn't this match, right? In terms of abilities, et cetera. It would be the end of our relationship.
Yeah. If we're talking about a world of letting go of the relationship escalator, and now we want to reconfigure our dynamic. Oof. Talk about communication skills, insight to say, okay, maybe this aspect of our relationship isn't working no more, anymore. But. But I still want you in my life.
Jessica: Yeah, exactly. And that's the story of me and David, my co author of Pollywise.
You know, it's now been 21, 22 years we've been in each other's lives and in many iterations, you know, friends, lovers. Married, co parents, ex husband, ex wife, housemates, but we realize, oh, this part of our sort of romantic relationship isn't a good match, so why do we keep trying to make it fit? It's not.
Nicole: Yeah.
Jessica: But we love each other so much. We have so many aspects of our life that are deeply compatible. Unenjoyable and so we didn't throw out the baby with the bath water, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Nicole: I'd love to hear a little bit more about the emotionality of going through that experience because what you and I both know is.
There are no rom coms or any sort of movie. I could look to even see that story that you've gone through to kind of paint this picture of what is possible in terms of connections. So I'd love for you to take up some space to really flesh out that story so people can start to have a new narrative of what's possible.
Jessica: Yeah, great. So just guide me too, if I'm going in a certain direction. I know you want more, but right. We were married at the time and parents together and living together and polyamorous, and yet it was kind of through our experiences with other partners realizing like, Oh, what? Two things. Wow. What we have is truly unique.
Nicole: Yeah,
Jessica: it's truly a lifelong connection that is not replaceable. And we're really not good match for lovership. Yeah. Like it was both. And so just it was really the courage to admit that. And we felt liberated by that. Like just to admit that and we didn't have to hate each other. We didn't have to demonize each other to just be like, I love you so much.
And I don't think we match well in this area and cannot be. And like, we felt like, Whoa, this is incredible. And it was really hard because we were like, I guess we have to break up, you know, like we needed to have a breakup. And we needed to dismantle the legal marriage and to not have sort of the enmesh codependency that was like legal marriage was creating for us.
It was a part of the dynamic that wasn't serving us. So we officially broke up. We moved out, lived apart, you know, same town, like 10 minutes away, but lived apart and it was hard, like every separation divorce of just like, like we both knew it was right, but it was. So painful. Yeah. To like have that iteration be let go of, to reestablish ourselves, you know, like as a single person, not single in relationships, but like my own house with my child who, you know, like that experience, right.
Of not living, not having a nesting partner. That's the way to say it. But. In that time, we did have a ceremony where we went to the creek in Boulder, Boulder Creek, and we threw our wedding rings into the creek and we released each other of our vows, our wedding vows.
Um, we, at first we honored each other. We like said, thank you for like how incredible and meaningful our relationship was. And then we took responsibility for the parts that we know we played that. We're problematic. And then we release each other of those wedding vows. And then we rebound and we recommitted as co parents and not just that we recommitted as like lifelong attachment partners.
Our, I think our words were like, I'm always going to be the person in this life that has your back.
Nicole: Oh,
Jessica: and that was crucial. Right. And I highly recommend that even in exclusive monogamous relationships, like, Ooh, release those vows. Cause they will continue. Like to me, vows are powerful. And there's really something about if we're going to have new partners in our life to not be having this like accumulation of vows that are, we're still kind of tied to, but to release and to renew was what we did.
And that I think we lived apart for a year and a half total. And then we left the country for a little bit and moved back in together. And now still live together back in the country. And so, yeah, it's been incredible.
Like we have our, we feel like the family union, we, what basically we're like, yeah, we're not coupled as romantic partners, but like our family has stayed intact.
Yeah. And we're really emphasizing like what works and not trying to make what doesn't work work.
Nicole: Right. How beautiful and expansive. And I guess I just want to pause, you know, after telling that sitting where you're at now, how does it feel to reflect back on that past experience?
Jessica: Yeah, it feels really good.
I think there was a part of me even When we were breaking up that like, I knew like, we're not done in each other's lives. This isn't like an ending. It's just a new evolution. And to allow that breakdown. So there can be, or like, you know, the, the crab that leader that leaves the shell to go into a bigger one, you know, like it was one of those kinds of moments.
Nicole: Yeah.
Jessica: So it feels good to reflect on it. Of course. Cause we're actually quite in a good place right now. Right, right, right, right. I think there was some part of me that knew this wasn't an ending, but I had no clue what it would actually look like. So I had to take, both of us had to take that leap into the unknown.
And I think that's the scariest place for people is in any relationship to even just speaking up, right? We're not even talking about a breakup, but that like, If I admit this, now we're leaping into the uncertainty and the unknown, right? And it creates this like, you know, bifurcation of like, if this goes well, it's this opportunity to deepen.
And if it doesn't, we could break up.
Nicole: Scary. Right. Right. But also, to pause, the alternative of staying and not voicing is, in my opinion, scarier.
Jessica: I agree.
Nicole: Yeah. Maybe it's a quote unquote safer option? However, is it really?
Jessica: I know, it's short term safe. Right. Right. So if we stay in our short term comfort zone, like you haven't brought food up before, like, Oh, if I just eat what's available or like tastes good, you know, short term satisfaction doesn't encourage long term health.
So it's like the same thing, like short term safety, comfort zone and relationship doesn't promote genuine authentic relationships or long term health.
Nicole: Absolutely. And I'm so thankful for you sharing your story right here and in your books as well, because, um, you know, it is an example of dismantling the relationship escalator.
And I always talk about the metaphor of maybe a blank canvas, right? How scary you have this blank canvas. We don't have the paint by numbers anymore, clear lines. It is now, wow. Okay. What sort of relationship do we want? And so there's. Fear in that space, but also, wow, what abundance of opportunity for your relationship to carve out a whole new narrative of meaning and intimacy and love.
Jessica: Yeah, exactly. And thank goodness for polyamory in that, too, that Our partners who are also more rooted in that paradigm can, you know, there's space for Dave and I's relationship because a lot of people we would meet would be like, what? What is this?
Nicole: Yeah. Insecurity about this attachment that you have. I could imagine.
Jessica: Yeah,
Nicole: exactly. And understandably, right? It's scary when you're moving through the world. We all need attachment. We all need that, right? Which I think makes me want to spin the conversation into semantics a little bit, right? Yeah. I know in the book you had talked about the metaphor of rock climbing, which I talk about often.
And so I wanted to ask, do you rock climb?
Jessica: A little bit cool.
Nicole: Okay. Yeah. Very, very cool. If you ever want to come out to Chicago, I'll definitely take you climbing. Um, I had always been climbing before entering non monogamy. And so the second I started stretching into this world of expansive connections, it was my metaphor, right?
Yeah. Okay. I know how to lead climb and that still scares a lot. The shit out of me, you know, how do I work with my body when I'm going through these difficult things that I know I want to do? So, yeah, I'm curious if you have anything to say about the body's importance in this world.
Jessica: Oh, yeah. I mean, it seems like it's so often what we've been taught to exile is like our own body, the wisdom of our body, the experience that's going on in our actual body.
And it's such a journey, so thinking of even paradigms, right, to break out of this thing. You know, disconnect of the body is separate from the mind, right? And to enter back into the body, to allow the sensations and the feelings and the discomfort of the body. Yeah. To really learn what it means to be in our body, to take care of our body.
I think of course we can be in relationship without that, but I don't think like, I don't It will definitely help us be in much healthier relationships because it's about that primary relationship to self. It's like, yeah, being embodied. I think we can be empowered. That's like, you know, a word that's obviously thrown around and very important as well, right?
We can't be empowered if we're not in our own bodies. There is no power without our bodies. Right. And when I say that, I don't mean having an able body. Right. To be in our body. Mm hmm. Yeah. To me, I immediately think of breath. Yes. Right. To be paying attention to my breath, posture. When I remember in my 20s, realizing like I would sit with my legs crossed and like, would hold in having to pee, like, you know, like, why am I so uncomfortable?
Like, why am I holding these tight, look good postures, right? Like, Instead of like, Oh, what is it like to breathe in my body to feel relaxed in my body, right? And if we haven't, you know, if we haven't dealt with some of our traumas or our feelings that first. Go at tuning into her body can be a lot and it can be quite overwhelming.
Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think, you know, regardless of what relationship, romantic, sexual, multiple, one, or any of them, being able to notice when, hey, you know, And this is something I do with my client work too, right? Oh, I'm noticing that I'm getting this tightness in the chest. I'm noticing that my voice is rising and I'm getting this, uh, you know, like being able to notice that is how we co regulate to show up for our partners to show up for ourselves.
And so this is a skill regardless of what relationship structure you're in, right? This is a skill for all of us. And I think. You know, for me, my roots go back to Christianity and purity culture. So I was one of the purity ring wears. I did not have an aunt that was practicing free love, you know, um, which meant that, uh, when I had sex for the first time, I cried cause it was before marriage and I felt like I.
Failed everything, right? And then when I had sex with a second person in my entire life, I was like, wow, you are such a whore, Nicole, like all of that sort of judgment. Cause I was unpacking all of these messages, right? And so what these messages had done plus years of societal conditioning is. Classical conditioning, right?
Any sort of multiple people, multiple love creates this response. So even as I continue to want to lead climb and do non monogamy, you know, I have a partner coming to me and say, Oh wow, you know, I met this other person. They're really attractive and we danced and all these things. And All of a sudden, my stomach is turning, I feel like I'm going to cry, and I know I want to climb this, I know I want to do this, but my body is having this reaction that is so in contrast to mentally where I want to be.
Jessica: Yes, right, and it can be so frustrating, right? You're like, I know I want to be there, and I know I can be, but like, I'm not. Yeah. So I'm curious, what do you do?
Nicole: Well, what do we do when we lead climb, right? We, uh, We take a deep breath. I tell my partner, Hey, I'm scared. I think, can we slow down here? Maybe I need you to put one hand on my chest and help me to co regulate in this moment, take a deep breath and we'll come back to it.
Right. I usually like to name my value system of this is what I want to do, but my body's having this reaction, but it feels so powerless at times when the body is different than the mind. And, you know, I have a trauma history, so that's something that I've also learned to get comfortable with, right? It's, again, our body trying to keep us safe.
So rather than being, Why the hell is my body reacting? Rah, rah, rah, rah, rah. It's, Of course, the body is trying to keep me safe. I've had years of classical conditioning that this means that my partner is going to leave me. This means that I am not valuable. This means blah. And so it has been a gentle stepping of naming those fears, checking in, going slowly.
Like, realizing my partner's not leaving me, right? And like, slowly stepping into the, Oh, I can do this lead climb. I can fall and be caught by the rope and, and I'm okay. Really?
Jessica: That's great. And so, yeah, exactly. It's like pausing and tending to the body first. So it's the paradox of like, slow down to actually get where you want to go faster.
Right. Because they're trying to push through it or ignore it or exile it and suppress it doesn't actually work.
Nicole: No.
Which is making me think about psychedelic work, right? We do not drop people into the high dose ego death, you know? Right. Whoa, no, we start with the handshake, particularly so your body can feel safe to open up and go to those other spaces.
Otherwise, you're overwhelming flooding it and you're not going to be able to really stretch and expand your recreating paradigms of the body needing to be tense and protective because we're just dropping it in. So I think being able to stay connected to the body and noticing when you're pushing past that zone of tolerance.
Jessica: Yeah. So key. So key. Yes. And sometimes with certain people, whether it's through therapy work, psychedelic work, you know, I see like, oh, let's work on body armoring first. Yeah. Like where there's all of this guarding so that we can get into even the deeper places and. The transformations people are usually wanting.
Nicole: How do you walk people through that? You know, for the listener, who's curious, what would it mean to start to tune into those areas where maybe I'm holding? What do you take your clients through?
Jessica: I think first it's simple of just like noticing where you start to hold, noticing. Yeah. My shoulders go up, you know, or I'm walking in a certain way.
I'm sitting in a certain way. What I often do too, is we do work on like tuning into the heart and feeling what kind of guarding is here in the heart. Yeah, and working with that as a protector that's been needed, sometimes people have like a plate, like a metal plate in front of their heart. Sometimes they feel like they have armor around their entire body, right?
So, sort of similar to what we were saying earlier, like honoring, honoring. The necessity of that protection, that guardedness, you know, around the physical body, the emotional body for good reason than dialoguing. Okay, but it's not actually helpful anymore. We still need some protection, of course, but updated protection.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. And that being such a practice, right?
Jessica: Exactly. What does it mean to have a protector that's more appropriately responsive to what's happening versus just like default, you know, alarms, walls up right away?
Nicole: Mm hmm. And I don't think there's an end to that question. Connection, right? Especially living under these systems that are so actively pulling us away from our body, right?
All the time. There's not really an end to the practice of embodiment in that, right? I, you start with that one little step of noticing and then maybe you're in the meditation for a longer, right? But it is that continual practice of coming back to build those neuronal pathways of sensation.
Jessica: Exactly.
Right. And like proprioception, introspection, introspection. Exactly. Yeah. I don't think we ever arrive and we're done. Right. Really anything in life, you know, that it is sort of usually an ongoing journey. Yeah. Yeah. And it might become simpler and more subtle.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. And thinking about the body, I, this is a part of a conversation we haven't really hit on, but I'd be curious how you understand purity judgments around shame and sexuality as playing a role in what makes polyamory difficult for some people.
Jessica: Oh yeah. Cause the culture is, Um, or those beliefs are about, and you define this with me too, right? That it's not just love with another person is a problem. It's desire itself, how dare you, how could you, right? You whore is what you were, right? You were being with someone outside of marriage, that, that sexual desire is dangerous.
That's what gets internalized. And then to feel shame for having desire, um, wanting pleasure with other, with self. Yes. So the thought of then wanting more pleasure, more desire with multiple people. It's just too far out there.
Nicole: Uh huh. Particularly as women, right? Are you the Madonna or are you the whore?
Jessica: Exactly. Or even this, um, greedy narrative can show up to you. Yes. Right. It's not just religious, but sort like you already have one partner, like, why do you need more? And it's just like, oh yeah, this like, we're not supposed to have needs, we're not supposed to get what we want because then we're selfish and needy if we do.
Nicole: Yeah. Right. And I find that paradigm interesting, right? The paradigm of I have this sexual desire that I wanna explore. And my partner doesn't. But because this is the one person, I'm going to push you to have this need met. Mm hmm. Eek.
Jessica: Yeah. You mean when people are like sort of forcing their partner into certain sexual exploration or non monogamy?
Nicole: Well, I guess both, right? Both.
It's the set and setting. You can't force the person to take the psychedelic, right? Right. Yeah. Um, but particularly I was thinking about, um, you know, someone who's interested in BDSM and the other partner has no interest.
Jessica: Uh, yeah. And that's the perfect example of just like, it's hard to fake kink and BDSM.
Yes. Right? You kind of need to be into it. I mean, some people might be able to say, okay, I'll dabble a little bit just to, you know, taste it. Um, but yeah, right. If a one partner really feels like they want it, they need it. It's part of their erotic blueprint and they're partnered with someone that it's not, you can't force it on them.
It doesn't work for anybody.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
And in my lived experience, right, the same way that I move through the world and I have multiple relationships that highlight different sides of myself, when I explore sex as the lovely divine whore that I am, right, with multiple different people, it highlights different aspects of myself.
Jessica: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. All right. And that's such an incredible thing to learn about ourselves and experience that we're not the same sexual being across the board, just like with friends, right? It's not the same exact me that shows up with each person. Variety these different facets and it is it can be such a liberation to stay on our theme right to go.
Oh, wow. I didn't realize there's this whole sexual side of me that this other person did bring out.
Nicole: Absolutely. And as you were talking, I just was feeling the moment to pause and just name the power of this conversation, right? To have two women in this space saying, yeah, I explored different parts of myself sexually with different people.
A hundred years ago. We would have gone to jail for this conversation.
Jessica: Good point. Yeah. Yeah. And there's many women on the planet today that can't have this as a public conversation. Yeah. So, I mean, the privilege we have is being. Women, especially white women in the United States, not to be missed here.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And with that privilege that I think the responsibility to push the edge, right? When I get afraid to say the things that I say in here, I'm like, you know, this is the edge pushing and the boundary pushing to create that greater space for other people. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I think, which is also a moment to pause and say thank you for your work, right?
I couldn't have done the dissertation that I wrote and the research that I'm doing without your books, right? Creating that sort of space for me to stand on the shoulders of giants who really laid the groundwork of attachment theory for this space.
Jessica: Yeah, it's so incredible. Those are some of the things that I would have never thought of, or I didn't think of when I was reading the book, you know, that people have reached out and been like, they're writing their dissertation and include, you know, and I'm just like, wait, what?
Nicole: Yeah.
Jessica: Yes.
Nicole: Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. Which makes me want to ask too, if you could pause back and connect with that younger self, right, who we started this conversation off where you had those clients that were doing non monogamy and you started to read the books and feel connected to that idea. When you see that younger self, is there anything that you would want to say to her?
Jessica: It's interesting. Cause I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is just like, keep going, girl, and I And in many ways, that's what I did. I think I heard that voice now, you know, echoing back, just being like, there's something here. Keep going. I like keep taking the leap. Because I remember not that long after starting to work with non monogamous clients, I was like, Oh, there is a huge need for this.
Wow. What an underrepresented supported community or population of people. So I put it as a tab on my website, you know, as a dropdown, right?
Nicole: Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: Very progressive friend of mine. She's like, I can't believe you did that. Like, you know, it was like, so she wasn't upset with me. Right. But she was just like, wow.
You know, like, I can't believe you did that. And I'm like, really, like, as if I took this huge risk and I guess. I did, you know, but I didn't, I was just like, no, people need this. Of course. I'm going to say I do it.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: And it was the privilege to you then to be working in my own private practice versus maybe working for an organization that probably wouldn't have allowed that actually.
Yep.
Nicole: Yeah.
Jessica: So thank you. I would have just told that self to keep going.
Nicole: Yeah, I can definitely resonate with that feeling of maybe an itch or a scratch that something wasn't right in this paradigm and that I needed to continue to explore. And as you were talking about that, I was remembering times in my doctoral training where one of the, I won't name names, the leading psychologist for a specific type of couples therapy I had asked about, Oh, could we use this paradigm with non monogamous couples?
This is all very, you know couple monogamous focused and she, she said back to me, well, actually, what I've seen is that that never actually works out. Always one partner wants it and the other doesn't.
Jessica: I've heard this simplification to you. Oh my God.
Nicole: All right, and I did come back to her I was like, you know what dr. blahblahblah that's actually not what I've experienced in the community I've experienced multiple people who both want this and enjoy that right? But again, I don't know if I would have had the confidence to come back and say that if I hadn't Read your book, right? Read all these other books of leaders in the field.
And so we're actively changing the paradigm one conversation at a time.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. And there's some, uh, like mainstream, I won't say them, but if I said them, people would know the name of their books and they have reached out and said, they're changing some of like doing, you know, new versions of their books to make sure they're not so mononormative now.
Good. Yeah. And it's like, thank goodness. And that's amazing that they're willing, you know, these are like the gods of the relationship field willing to grow and evolve.
Nicole: Good. Yeah. Very, very exciting. Well, I want to hold a little bit of space as we come towards the end of our time. I always ask each guest, was there anything else that you wanted to share with the listeners that's maybe still on your heart?
Otherwise, I can guide us towards a closing question.
Jessica: I think I just always like to say, like, exclusivity is great too. We're focusing on the power of polyamory, the liberation of sexual non monogamy, right? That doesn't mean that exclusive relationships are invalid or less than or shouldn't be. Go for it.
That's okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I just want people to know that, yeah, I'm in support of those. I think just what I always say is that it's not just the default, it's actually a choice. Right.
Nicole: Which is why I like relationship anarchy, right? You can practice sexual fidelity and be a relationship anarchist. Someone who's actively challenging the systems of power, the relationship escalator, the idea that you're partner is going to be the one all be all of all of your relationships, you know, this much bigger expansion to understand that we live in a community of relationships. And so whether you have sex with one person or not, does not preclude you from practicing relationship anarchy and having that wider understanding of, wow, all of these relationships are important.
And all of these relationships shape my reality.
Jessica: Exactly.
Nicole: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. If it feels good to you, it can guide us towards the closing question. Great. Okay. So, the one question that I ask every guest on the podcast is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Jessica: Oh, sexual deviance, right?
Nicole: Ooh, Jessica. Yeah. Tell me more.
Jessica: Right. I think I wish people knew how common it is to want. Kinky things, different things. I mean, yes, multiple partners, but not even just that. Yeah. Right. It's so normal and okay, and it doesn't mean if you do that, then that's what you want all the time either.
Nicole: Yeah. Yes, how many different flavors are there, you know?
Tons! I like all the flavors, right?
Jessica: Yeah, but just knowing that often what people might feel embarrassed about, certain relationship desires or sexual desires, like, guess what? There's a website that already exists. Like, you know, you're not the only one. There's lots of people that share this.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I recorded with Dr. Elizabeth Sheff and yeah, we were just talking about the rates of BDSM fantasies. I think again, being like in the high 70s, uh, threesome fan, right. Just like, so, and again, whether you choose to enact it or have the fantasy is absolutely up to you, but right. I think that's pretty normal. Statistically, if we're talking about numbers.
Jessica: Oh, yeah. Justin Lee Miller's work on what people are fantasizing about, even if they are identifier practicing exclusive relationships, they're the highest fantasy is of threesome, right?
There's a huge difference between maybe this is what I want people to know.
There's a difference between, you know, Fantasy and desire. Sure. Right? Fantasy can be anything. And then often it's like, is it a desire? Cause if I think about actually doing it, if it's just a fantasy, I won't want to do it. If it's desire, I'll get more excited to have it be real.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, I have this alter ego fantasy of being, you know, the woman on stage that plays the electric guitar and knows how to just like throw it out there.
Right. But like, okay, I don't actually want to go through all the work of learning how to play an instrument. I know how to play none.
Jessica: Right. That's a perfect example. It's such a fun fantasy and like go wild with the fantasy. It's not a real desire that you're going to like implement.
Nicole: No, you know how much work that would take?
I'm okay. Yeah, absolutely. What was such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today and get to talk to you truly.
Jessica: Yeah. Thank you, Nicole.
Nicole: Yeah, where would you want to plug for people who want to connect to you, your work and learn more about what you have to offer?
Jessica: Yeah, just my website is good.
Jessicafern. com. People can see my books there. Some of my offerings. I'm really low on social media, but I'm technically on Instagram.
Nicole: Great. I'll have all of that plugged below and thank you for joining us today. Yeah. Thank you for having me.
Jessica: Yeah, you're great at this. So you made it so easy. I really appreciate that.
Nicole: If my skills of therapy can be used for this sort of space. Totally. I love that. I love that. If you enjoyed today's episode then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast. And head on over to modernanarchypodcast. com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode.
I want to thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
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