Nicole: On today's episode, we have Jeff Parrett join us for another relationship anarchy research conversation. Together we talk about owning our part in the speed bumps, moving into a world of co creation, And reconfiguring our relationships to flow with change. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.
I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name's Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy. And I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice, supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.
Dear listener, these relationship anarchy episodes are some of my favorite episodes on this show. It is such a joy to explore the practice of relationship anarchy, and I'm so thankful for all of you anarchists out there who have submitted your answers to these questions, who have come on to the show to meet with me, and I just want you to know, dear listener, that the door is open for you to submit your answer to these questions and I just really hope you're learning and I hope that you're having fun.
I'm having fun each week tuning in and just getting to see these different sides, these different perspectives to the practice and yeah, really growing in this space with you and yeah. I know so many of you have been asking about my dissertation, where can you find it, how can I read it, and I am excited to announce that I have published my dissertation on my website, so you can head on over to the Relationship Anarchy tab, and you'll be able to download it there and read it all 160 pages plus pages of content on relationship anarchy, so I'm really excited to be sharing that research with you and to be continuing the research with all of these very special conversations. All right, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can explore my offerings and resources at modernanarchypodcast.com, linked in the show notes below. And I want to say the biggest thank you to all of my Patreon supporters, especially our newest community member, Justin. You are supporting the long term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content fresh Free and accessible for all people. So, thank you. If you want to join the community, get exclusive access into my research and personal exploration, then you can head on over to patreon.
com slash modern anarchy, also linked in the show notes below. And with that, dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love and love. Let's tune into today's episode.
So then the first question I like to ask each guest is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Jeff: I am a mature man who has lived an amazing life. I have settled into this place where I want to find balance around relationship and deconstruct a lot of the social conditioning that we have around relationship in terms of, you know, our male female dynamic or whatever gender dynamic in today's world and look at ageism You know, the, we, we have some conditioning around older man, younger woman or older woman, younger man.
Nicole: Right. Right. Yeah. Lots of conditioning around all of this, which is why it's such a fun space to talk about it. And so I'm looking forward to going through the relationship anarchy questions with you today.
Jeff: Yeah, me too.
Nicole: All right. So the first one is what is relationship anarchy?
Uh, you know, the easy one, my dissertation, I was like, how do I answer this again and again?
I don't know, man.
Jeff: Let's go right to the heart of the matter. Nicole. I appreciate that. I'm all for directness. You know, for me, it's gotten to this place around crafting the relationships that work for me. You know, there, there, again, there's that social conditioning and we put labels on things and, you know, we don't examine some of the underpinnings.
Of where they're coming from. And, and so for me, I go into relationship anarchy, not, um, with any assumptions. And, and I've seen this a couple of places. It's not about not having commitments, it's about crafting our own commitments and, you know, and being transparent and honest. And for me there's a, a place where in any relationship dynamic, we're gonna hit, uh, what I call speed bumps.
And they're going to throw us off our balance and I believe I, I don't play the blame game. I don't play the shame game. And so let's, you know, use this as an opportunity to grow and evolve. What was your part in the speed bump? What was my part in the speed bump? And. You know, the biggest thing I see is we don't examine our assumptions.
And that sets a foundation for just so many things.
Nicole: Absolutely. I appreciate that nuance of it's not about no commitments, right? Or no relationship agreements. It's about being, you know, intentional with each individual person of What do we want in our dynamic here? Right? And and the freedom to explore all of that
Jeff: Exactly.
Yeah, we'll make mistakes. I mean with human beings We have to create a space for that, you know, and and I just went through this with another Communication with someone that wasn't about a relationship but around a collaboration Where we were using the same word, but we are interpreting it in different ways.
Nicole: Yeah.
Jeff: Oh, now I see what the issue was. And so, you know, if we're not willing to talk and if we're not willing to kind of self reflect, you know, uh, at my piece in this, and that's what I love. The, uh, the most attractive thing for me in any relationship is a person willing to have the vulnerability to share their heart.
Dynamic, right? Well, when everything's going good, we don't have a problem. It's, it's the speed bumps that, you know, catch us and life likes to deliver speed bumps.
Nicole: Oh yeah. And that's where we grow. Right. So it's inevitable that we're going to hit those and grow with people. And all of us have different journeys of how far we have to grow, depending on our parents and, uh, what family structures we started with.
Right. So myself included, we got to go through some really interesting things. depending on where we started from and we'll grow in relationships and continue to grow in relationships. So it's inevitable that will have that rupture and it's about right the repair and coming back.
Jeff: And our willingness to own our part in it.
That's why I say I Won't shame you for what's going on in your world. And I won't blame you for what's going on in my world.
Nicole: Right.
Jeff: That we each get to own that piece of, you know, what we're, what we're facing together and, you know, being again, honest and transparent, it's actually really sexy when someone wants to have that deep kind of conversation with you.
I find it more attractive that, that. When that happens, I feel closer to the person.
Nicole: Absolutely. It's intimacy, right? So yeah, to be seen connected. Oh, I mean, those are the best things in life. And so you're already starting to hit on it a little bit of how do you practice relationship anarchy? So I'd love to hear more about, yeah, what this looks like in actual praxis for you.
Jeff: Yeah. I mean, you used the word intimacy. And, and for me, uh, I, I break that word down into me. You see, right. Or into me, I see, right? Being willing to be self reflective and, uh, and so that's really what it's about. And then it's like, okay, we live in such a sex dysfunctional culture and you know, how much of dating and I like this, this concept of romance, I just struggle with it because is it just me trying to You know, get into your pants or, you know, that, that, that, that there's some agenda behind it.
And I do very romantic things. And we don't have a sexual relationship, right? And so starting to take that dynamic out of it. And, and for me, the practice is what do we do when we have our clothes on? What's the co creative social kind of, uh, connection that we have. And, and so that's what it becomes more about.
And. You know, the, this idea of new relationship energy, it's like, I've got to a point where I distrust it.
Nicole: Yeah, me too.
Jeff: It's the universe bringing me together with someone who have unfinished business with each other.
Nicole: Yeah, I think about it in the paradigms of other sorts of drugs, right? We take it low, we start slow, we know we're in an altered state of consciousness, right?
And try to hold on to that when we're moving through those waters and then, uh, When I recorded with Jessica Fern, she was talking about like learning to trust ourselves after writing through that drug a couple of times to, to kind of notice the signs, feel the layout of the psychedelic landscape that we're like, oh, okay, I've walked here before.
Right. I kind of know what's going on. I know I'm not sleeping at night, all of that fun stuff. Um, but yeah, like you said so much, it's about what you know, is going on when you have the clothes on. There's such this, um, preconceived. Concept that relationship anarchy is about who you're having sex with, which is almost the exact opposite.
You know, like, it's a whole point of D centering, uh, your sexual and or however we define romantic relationships. Right? So it's really supposed to be about that fullness of all of our relationships, which is why in my dissertation, I had some people and even through these conversations, some people who talk about relationship anarchy.
impacting their family dynamics and how they move through those worlds or work in other sorts of spaces. And so I think that's such an important thing that you're hitting on, that it's much more expansive than the ideas of non monogamy or that sort of concept or even that binary of monogamy and non monogamy.
Again, that's a world that's centering sex as our orientation to our whole relational landscape. And this is like, we are outside of that, my friends. We are going beyond that sort of binary here.
Jeff: Exactly. And you, you hear people who are adrenaline junkies. I think there are a lot of us out there that are oxytocin junkies and we just want that hit of oxytocin.
And how do you like have awareness of it? For me now, it's almost a red flag. It. It's like, wow, why am I feeling such, you know, this, you know, draw that like, I am almost like losing myself in it. I'm fantasizing, I'm making up all kinds of stories around what this relationship, what this, you know, dynamic means when, yeah, when I meet someone new,
Nicole: right.
Yeah, which I almost want to pull apart to in some ways because like how beautiful oxytocin, right? It's giving us grounding. We sleep better when we're with other humans, you know, we feel safe, all that fun stuff. And so that stuff's good. I think when I think about this, I think about the years of classical conditioning.
And when we talk about other sorts of structures, right? Like internalized homophobia, internalized racism, these various structures that are Yeah. Deep within our unconscious, and there's really no end to unpacking those, internalized mononormativity is another one. I've gone through my whole life seeing this is what you do on the escalator.
This is what it means. So, yeah, the 2nd that we get this exciting partnership, it's like, oh, Cool. Are we going to live together? Have kids? La la la la la la la la. It's like that has been classically conditioned in all of us that the second we have this feeling, it means X, Y, Z. And so the active process of deconstructing that, uh, stimulus and our response, oof, dizzying, dizzying.
Jeff: It is. And, you know, you know, and maybe it's an oversimplification at, at, you know, In the way I look at, you know, incorporating sex into a relationship for me, sex is about reproduction or pleasure. And beyond that, it's mostly social conditioning. And so, at my age, I have kids, grandkids, I have great grandkids and.
So that's not on my landscape. And, you know, if I went out with someone and we had a great meal, you know, something we did together, we had an incredible pleasure. A, we'd talk about it and we'd share it with our friends. And, you know, there wouldn't be this stigma. There wouldn't be meaning. Around it.
That's imposed by again that that social conditioning that is, you know, our family dynamic, generational dynamic, cultural dynamic, and you just start to be aware of that. And I found myself in in similar circumstances. So. A big part of why I landed in relationship anarchy is I have this pattern where I lose myself in the relationship and I like to call it the pit that I fall into and I keep falling into it from different directions and in different ways. And so now it's about recognizing when I'm either a in the pit or on the precipice of the pit and to choose to do something different. So the, the RA. Kind of mindset and paradigm has given me a structure to step back from that. And, you know, this whole thing about we don't label our relationships. Yeah, you know, call it whatever you want to call it.
I mean, I have friends that I cuddle with, you know, friends that I hold hands with. Right. And then we don't make meaning of it. So back to, you know, yeah, oxytocin is important and there are other ways to get it within any kind of relationship where it has a sexual dynamic or not.
Nicole: Right. Right. Absolutely.
And. Yeah, the label thing is such a tricky space. I mean, part of the ideas of relationship anarchy is what like self governance, right? So the people who want to not use labels, like I'm all here for that, right? It's your journey, your choice. For me, I like them. I like them. The reality is person on the street that I'm walking past is not the person that I've shared my life story and complexities and is holding all of the facts about my mom and my sister and my whole world.
Like there is a difference between that, that I would like a word to, right? And so. I find meaning in that, and I think it doesn't have to be anti relationship anarchy to use these labels. It's more so, again, about the flexibility of is it a prescriptive or descriptive label, right? When I say friend, uh, let's get creative, folks.
I can have sex with that friend. I can cuddle that friend. I can do none of those things with that friend. And if that label feels good to me, Great. Right. And so I don't think it has to be so vitriolic of don't use it. Although I do see the benefit, right? The benefit of getting outside of these language concepts, because when we think about how language shapes our concept of reality, right?
When you say, Oh, this is a friend, you know, depending on where you're at in this deconstruction process, that might actually signal a lack of importance, right? And so I can see the benefit of saying, Oh, this is my friend rather than a partner, because it's almost putting me into this paradigm of, you know, Less forced attachment control.
But I think beyond that, it's also like use the labels that work for you. Right? Like we, we don't have to control the language in my opinion, but who am I? Who am I?
Jeff: Well, I know I completely agree. And, and I think it's important within any given relationship that. You and that person are comfortable with the language you use, but you also have to be cognizant of how other people will interpret that world.
Nicole: Right?
Jeff: Right. So if I say I'm friends with this person and oh, we have sex as part of that friendship, they immediately go to friends with benefits.
Nicole: Right.
Jeff: And what stigma is attached to that. Within culture. And so it's more about, you know, being able to clarify that word and how a broader society sees it and then deciding if that's important, you know, like I said earlier in the pre interview, um, it's none of my business what other people think of me.
And if they want to put a meaning or that I have to decide what's that relationship about and is it worth clarifying?
Nicole: Right. Yeah, because there's a lot of you know, the personal is political. There's a lot of power in oh One of my partners and I are going blank right versus one of my friends and I are going here and so Yeah.
The person who's hearing that will, you know, depending on what frame they're at, have a radically different read of that. And so maybe I want to be really political today and actually drop that and be like one of my partners and really send them through that, you know, and also maybe I don't, because this is a clinical psychology space where it's not always safe, you know, like maybe I want to hold that back, you know, and you got to go.
Okay. And so just the ability to kind of like, you know, code switch at different times and make those political choices is a really big. Part of this, but like you said, yeah, checking in with our partners to make sure that, Hey, I want to use this word when I say partner, what does it mean to you? What does it mean to me?
Do we both agree with those things? Cause when I say partner, it might mean, okay, now there's a toothbrush at my house. We're going to check in every day. Like, right. Like, it's like. Whoa. And so the clarity that comes from this level of conversation is, is like you said, hot and intimate.
Jeff: Yep. There's meaning and there's expression, right?
And what you just talked about is, okay, we've used this word, it has a meaning and what's the expression of that meaning. And you know, when I look at kind of what's happened over the last, you know, 50, 60 years around orientation and gender and sexual normativities, you know, the, the non monogamous world is still pretty much in the closet.
And, and, you know, it's kind of the last frontier that I see around, uh, can we be open and honest and accepting of that, um, multi person marriages, you know, it's like, so there's still kind of a stigma and a, I guess, closetedness About having this kind of alternative lifestyle.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. There is, which is why I will say thank you for joining us today and being a part of changing that movement.
Right. And absolutely. Yeah. That leads me into the next question of why do you practice relationship anarchy? Is any of that tied to your experience for you?
Jeff: Yeah, it is. Uh, you know, I'll rewind and give you a little. Kind of personal history. 25 years ago, I was married and living a kind of conventional life with kids and a house and a job and taking vacations and, you know, uh, I'll say an all right sex life and wasn't happy.
And it started me down this path to like, let me reexamine, you know, my life and it ended up leading to a divorce and, and then moving out into the non monogamous landscape and starting with something as simple as just, you Swinging and sure had lots of fun, but it lacked the intimacy that I wanted.
Nicole: Right.
Jeff: And, and so ended up doing a series of workshops through an organization that explores the dimensions of love, intimacy, and sexuality, and they don't promote anything, but it gave me a chance to start to do that deconstruction. And over time, you know, I'd said it a little earlier that I discovered kind of my deeper pattern was to lose myself in the relationship.
And, um, and so when I started being more circumspect around the kinds of relationships I wanted and the people that I was engaging with, it was some of those things around the, like, we could have great physical chemistry, but, you know, the emotional depth was not there or the personal awareness was not there.
And so just starting to see the relationships for what they were and, and then letting, you know, that person show up how they were and me showing up how I was. And it wasn't until maybe 2019, 20 that I, you know, I forget where got exposed to the concept of relationship anarchy. And, you know, I've gone, Oh, what I call it, or this is what I'm doing.
You know, it's, it's been an incredible journey of, you know, and I've, I've been at times in my life where. I've had multiple partners. I went through phases where I was intentionally being celibate and, you know, just tuning into, you know, my sexuality, my expression and, and really kind of what I wanted to focus on in life.
There's a quote and I forget who said it. Um, we're, we're moving from a world of the joining of genes. To a world of co creation and what do we want to co create in this relationship and who are my co creators and, um, you know, what's that creative impulse that I think it's all of us,
Nicole: right? Absolutely.
Absolutely. Yeah. Which is so beautiful to think about just the existential narrative sharing and building and all of that. And it. It makes me think too about this idea of losing yourself in relationships, the complexities of that, but also finding yourself in relationship, you know, like I'm sure you found very specific parts of yourself as you co created with someone, but of course, tuning into when that feels not in alignment and authentic and needing to pull out.
Pull back and balance across, but there's so much that we find of ourselves in relationship as much as I'm finding it right now in this conversation with you of like, who am I? It's like showing up in this present moment. And so, yeah, I just think about the, the beauty of that as we co create narratives together.
Right. And, and having to check in with those narratives of like, again, yeah, this word, does that check with your, are we cool with, okay, okay. Keep going. Right. And that, that sort of space and the, the beauty of that and. I guess I just also want to hold space for partners to celibacy, right? And like, being a relationship anarchist across that smattering of ways that you do it, there's sometimes a very vitriolic, anti monogamy stance in the relationship anarchy community.
I don't know if you've seen this.
Jeff: Yes, indeed,
Nicole: which I hear that, you know, I hear it and I, it was really nice to process it with them. One of my mentors, uh, she's a feminist psychologist and I was talking to her, I was like, you know, I got, I got some comments on this, these posts and someone who was like, I'm anti monogamy.
I'm anti family. And I was like, this is so interesting. And she's like, ah, it sounds like second wave feminism of anti men. Okay. I understand why we're anti men. I get it. Like, I get it. But we're not anti men, right? And in the process of saying we're anti men, we're excluding men from joining feminism.
We're anti patriarchy. We can be anti mononormativity, right? And still be pro men. Throw people who want to have sex with one person. Like God, it doesn't have to be, you know, like, uh, I spin my head as you can tell on this one.
Jeff: Yep. And there's a huge thing to unpack there, you know, around patriarchal culture and, you know, and I'll just be honest again.
Uh, I'm at the top of the pyramid, a white American male, right. And doesn't get any more privileged than that. And there's a really good book called Unplugging the Patriarchy. And it talks about this idea of, you know, the patriarchy is as wounded, right, as the matriarchy is. And, you know, I get labeled all the time as being that cis white male.
And it's like, you don't know me. Right. And so how do we step into, again, those assumptions of how someone presents or a word we're using and think about it in a broader cultural term and, you know, through my personal expression.
Nicole: Totally. Absolutely. Yeah. And holding space for that growth period for people because yeah, like you said, the patriarchy is Hurt people, hurt people.
So man, you know, it's like holding that space for, for all of the men out there, you know, uh, and we don't have to, uh, we don't have to value grade or compare suffering, right? We can just hold that there's separate differences that everyone goes through in this path and, and the journey that all it is, um, especially in generational differences, right?
You went through a very different world than I'm moving through. And I think that's what also gives me hope too, right? It's like. As we're having these conversations and sitting in this nuance, finding our connection points, I hope that these level of conversations will shake future generations who, who step out, you know, maybe they don't even have to use the word relationship anarchy because they're already here.
So collectively in the consciousness that they're already rocking it there. And so I'll be excited to see where, where future generations are at once, you know, there are age your age.
Jeff: Yeah, no, I completely agree with you that the generational differences that we're experiencing and I work with a lot of young people and some of my social work and and completely understand that the world that you're looking at today is very different than the world.
I looked at when I was your age and. And what it, I think, creates is, again, that opportunity for co creation. And I've kind of reached a point in my life where there's a lot of people talking and, and words are great. Who are the practitioners? Right? Because that's where the rubber hits the road. And then it becomes this social experiment and, and this kind of self awareness, self discipline.
Feedback kind of, you know, mindset helps us to, you know, okay, I'm going to set an intention and I'll get an outcome. And is it what I intended or not? And then I can take the feedback and start to look at that and iterate and improve. And that's kind of the, you know, the broader sense that just goes beyond.
You know, relationship in our politics and our economics and in all of our society that are, you know, pretty much name a system. That's not in crisis right now.
Nicole: Right? Right. Absolutely. And yeah, speaking of praxis, right? The rubber hits the road. I know we've hit on this. Gently in a couple of different points, but the next question is, how does relationship anarchy impact your practice of intimacy?
It's the fun one.
Jeff: I mean, it's about being straightforward, you know, it's building a bridge of trust and rapport and a container, uh, as you know, you and I, Uh, get to know each other and, you know, I, I use several dating apps and, um, it's, it's pretty much, uh, a shit show out there right now. You can dig that out if you need to.
Nicole: No, you can curse here, it's welcome.
Jeff: And so it is that kind of incremental kind of connection and me getting to know you, and I'll give you an example. My kind of practice around the dating apps is I meet someone and, uh, or connect with someone and we'll dialogue back and forth. And I'll get to know them first.
Kind of gateway is how does that conversation go? Are you curious about me? Do you ask questions? Do you know you answer the questions that I'm curious about you? So we build kind of like, okay, there's a curiosity here. And if that goes well, then Let's have a phone call, right? Let's see what the real time interactive kind of dynamic is.
And if that goes well, then maybe we meet. And, and just, you know, uh, I saw something on somebody's profile that says they, they approach it more of a slow burn. And so here was a personal example. I had this great interaction with a woman on the dating site. We had a first phone call and then one day she texted me.
And the thing you'll learn about me is like, I'm not online. I'm not, uh, Addicted to my phone. I'm not Pavlov's dog that when you know, it dings that I have to look at it My phone is over on the shelf right now on silent mode as I have my forget it right
Nicole: next to me generational differences Oh, I am a sucker
Jeff: so so this and I had a busy day and so this woman had texted me and It's like I respond, uh, in, in my timeline, and later that afternoon I get this long diatribe from her about why I hadn't responded, what was wrong with me, yada, yada, yada, and so here was my response.
I don't think we'd be a good match.
Nicole: Yeah, which is super fair because the amount of assumptions that went into that without any level of conversation about communication styles, how frequent, right? Like, it was a really good read on the situation, you know?
Jeff: Yeah. I, again, here's one of my mantras. When someone shows you who they are, believe them.
Nicole: I know. But you know how hard that is. Yeah.
Jeff: And this is, so Nicole, this is what I love is, is I am a landscape of people that they know about my orientation and my style of relationship. And so I can do reality checks, you know? And. You know, again, depending on where we are on that progression of building that bridge of rapport.
And I love that kind of metaphor. We're creating a bridge here together will dictate how I might respond with the example I gave you. It's like, you know, I just started the bridge out and I already know that I'm pulling it back, right? Yeah. But if it's somebody that I have, uh, gotten further down that road, then I'll have that conversation.
Gee, what's going on for you? Are you curious about my experience?
Nicole: Absolutely. The wisdom there of the nuance, right? Of how long have I known this person? How reasonable are they? Right? Like all of that stuff. I think a lot of us get lost in the Oh no, I am hurting this person. Look at this long text that they sent me.
And oh, oh, oh God. Oh my God. I should definitely console them. And oh no, right. And wanting to respond, I'm so sorry. I didn't know in, which comes from a good place of, we see another human in suffering, we know that we were inadvertently a part of that dynamic that caused that for them, but to then also have to take that step back and look and say, Whoa, like you did, right?
The amount of assumptions that went into this. are really, really high. There is going to be no world where I'm going to gently fix this without it requiring so much time and energy for me that I would have to teach them about expectations. Ah, it's like, okay, I cannot extend myself to that extent. Right.
And so we have to, all of us included, watch the people pleasing tendencies for us to always be happy, making everyone happy and happy. You're gonna piss people off like people, you're gonna piss people off.
Jeff: Exactly. Again, use that word assumptions. And, and again, this for me is an example of how I've evolved with one particular relationship that I started before COVID.
Um, it was a woman I met on a dating site and. She was what I call a non monogamous tire kicker.
Nicole: What does that mean to you?
Jeff: Well, it means that she was exploring that for herself. She never, you know, tried it, didn't know if it was what she wanted. Um, we had a great social dynamic, we had a great sexual dynamic.
And when COVID hit, it put her in a place of, you know, I want something that's more grounded, more traditional. And, and because we'd had that social and sexual connection that, that we had that intimacy, both physically and emotionally, we took a break for a while to kind of let some of that settle and deconstruct.
And, you know, there's almost a withdrawal from the oxytocin that we go through. And so, um, and then we got, you know, back in communication and, and now we're great friends. Uh, this past summer I did a trip to Europe and she, she's married now and, um, she joined me on part of the trip. We don't have the sexual component right now, but we have this deep connection.
So that's another example of what, you know, how far down this path of building this bridge of rapport. Have we gone
Nicole: right? Exactly. And I love the, uh, space of reconfiguring, right?
Jeff: Yes.
Nicole: Yeah.
Jeff: And again, here's, I never make an assumption because we've had sex in the past that we're going to have sex in the future, right?
Nicole: Exactly. Exactly. And so then being able to hold space for the ways that change is inevitable. We know we're going to change, our dynamics going to change. And so what does it mean to be an active conversation about that? So that, you know, if one way that we're relating is no longer working for us, like sex, what are other ways that we can relate that it will feel good, even if that means less frequency, right?
Like, I think I really appreciate this space of relationship, anarchy, reconfiguration to maintain the relationship and, and just, you know, the level of intimacy, conversation, insight it takes to be able to have that, especially when we're looking at like marriage divorce rates, right? And this, this like rupturing of relationships that just end and that happens in poly spaces too, a lot.
And I really appreciate this, this dynamic of relationship anarchy of no, each individual relationship, we're having a conversation about all of that. What works in our relationship for us, we can take it off, we can put it back on, we can take it off, we can put it back on. And in that space, what a beautiful, mature relational dynamic.
Jeff: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it pulls back to something you'd said earlier. It's about self sovereignty and self empowerment. And, you know, I'm responsible for my choices,
but here's something that I don't think. Gets discussed as often in any of the kind of Non monogamous spaces and even in you know more traditional spaces is expectations, right?
You're not responsible for any expectations that I may have imposed on you or on myself and And I think how much of our hurt comes from unexpressed expectations or, or, you know, or maybe unexpressed desires and expectations that you're going to meet those desires.
Nicole: A lot, right? So a lot, a lot, right?
Cause if so right now, I don't know if I'd use the word saturated or how, like, I don't, I have a full relational world, right? I've got a full relational world of beautiful, deep, and you know, how I kind of describe it is kind of like planets, right? So I've got some people that orbit really close to me. We talk every day, others that kind of stretch out, right?
And so if someone starts to come into my world, and again, this is any type of relationship and now say we. Have sex, right? There might be. And again, because of cultural classical conditioning on all the assumptions. Okay. So now Nicole's going to text me every day. We're going to start to talk every day.
And then eventually we might live together and then we're going to like swap last names. And then like, you know, and to me, I'd be like, Whoa, my friend, hold on. Like, Just because we had sex does not mean we're going to be talking every day. Now, then the scary part is they might be in a therapist office going, I met this girl, Nicole, and we had sex.
And now she told me she won't talk to me every day. Isn't she an avoidant attachment? And you're like, holy shit. You're like, dude, you don't understand. I have so many close relationships, but you're making so many assumptions within our cultural scripts of what it means to be attached. When like, I'm trying to be as clear as possible that like, this is what I want.
And right here at this rate in this distant.
Jeff: Yeah.
Nicole: Oh, man.
Jeff: Yeah, absolutely. The, you know, there's a whole swamp full of alligators there. Again, I've kind of settled into this solo kind of mindset and, and part of it is because I like my space. I'm not saying I won't ever live with someone again. It's interesting.
I just recently had someone that I've actually slept with overnight because, um, My sleep dynamic is challenging for, you know, another person to be in the bed with me. And so it's like, I, I'm just kind of like, let me focus on what I feel called to in my life. And then who are the relationships that, and I love this word of orbit that are in kind of this orbit around me.
And some of them are close like Mercury and Venus. And, and some of them are out there like Pluto and, And, you know, to me, the test of any relationship always becomes whatever length of time that we've been apart, how quickly we can drop back into that depth
and, you know, and having that depth of relationship and, you know, uh, being able to share what's going on and your secrets, right, are something we all crave.
And struggle to create, right? We, we never get. Formalized training on, you know, how to build deep intimate relationship and maybe we'll go to that therapist and they'll help deconstruct things. And this is 1 of the things that I loved about this series of workshops that I did is it was based on practical exercises with people that that you had these conversation was like.
Here, how do you have a safe sex conversation with someone or you, you know, put your body parts together and, and, and you actually practice that, you know, no intention of having sex with the, within the workout, but you know, if I want to get good at something, I need to practice it.
Nicole: Yeah. And you learn in relationships, right?
I mean, it's mind boggling to me. I've said this before on the podcast that we like teach people geometry and not relationships and you know, let's replace it. And someone's like, no, we need geometry. I was like, okay, fine, fine, fine, fine. But I just want to add it to the curriculum, right? Just like, yeah, like basic relational skills, knowing how much relationships shape our concept of reality and our wellbeing.
I mean, yeah, that feels so essential. And like you were saying, you know. With the planets that orbit much further away, right? Some of those can still have a really heavy, I mean, granted my degrees in clinical psychology, I'm not a physicist. I don't know, but like
Jeff: they have gravity,
Nicole: even if they're really far out.
Right. If it's a big planet, like it, it still pulls on you. Right. And so, yeah, there's a lot of ways that we can have relationships. that I see once every couple of years and we can reconnect and play or whatever feels good for us. And so that sort of spaciousness, again, I think is part of the beauty of, of this, this practice.
Jeff: Exactly. And, and I loved you, you talking about, you know, why is it not part of the curriculum? Um, yeah, you know, Nicole, I call it the fourth R reading, writing, arithmetic relationship. And, you know, in school we pack kids into this, you know, tight, intimate environment and we don't teach them how to relate to one another.
What the fuck?
Nicole: I know. I, this is why the podcast is here, my friend, you know, like,
Jeff: but again, it's, it's such a taboo thing to talk about. Sexuality. Okay. We've got sex ed. Now we can talk about the mechanics of it at a very superficial level. Absolutely. And, but we don't talk about relationship dynamic and, and again, back to something I said earlier, and we definitely don't talk about a non monogamous.
Relationship dynamic. That's still taboo. We're still in the closet in some respects. I mean, yeah, there are people that are living this lifestyle, but it's not a cultural conversation that's being had.
Nicole: Absolutely. It's it's starting
Jeff: until I meet some woman like Nicole who's wanting to do that and have a podcast.
So absolutely.
Nicole: Thank you. Yeah. And absolutely it is starting. Like I saw the New York mag, um, come out with an article of like, how did polyamory become so popular? Like it's happening. Like the cultural phenomena is happening y'all. So, so I'll be super curious in a couple of years just to see. Where it's at and I know there's going to be so much movement and, you know, before we get to that space of an even safer and more open space for us to practice all of these things.
I'm sure you found some difficulties. This is my nice little segue to question number six. What are some of the difficulties that you've experienced with relationship anarchy?
Jeff: Well, the first and foremost one is time management.
Nicole: When you're at a buffet of options, you get stomach ache a few times and you go, okay, I can't do that again.
Jeff: And you use that word of being saturated, you know, and, and for me again, it's like life balance. And, you know, even though I'm, you know, retired from the nine to five thing. I'm still very active and, and doing a lot of social kinds of change and, and activities.
And so finding that balance of that and, you know, kind of looking at the you, me and the we and how they come together. And so, um, that, that for me is, you know, probably one of the biggest challenges. The other one is, and again, it's not to be judgmental, but to assess. Where a person is at on their personal journey, so my earlier story about, you know, the woman who was a tire kicker, I went into that very intentionally, and part of that was because of just the conversation we had, and, you know, her willingness to have open conversation and, you know, Owning her piece of where she was at and what she was exploring, that can be one of the pitfalls, right?
That, you know, a person's not kind of owning their piece of it. Expectations or assumptions are being made there. And so for me, uh, it has been an interesting journey across this 25 years of, you know, different dimensions of, you know, not monogamous relationships. Um, and then kind of settling into where I'm at in my life.
I mean, there was a point when I was being monogamous because I just didn't have the time.
And this is an interesting, you know, you just kind of, it clicked in my head. It's like, Once we start having sex, somehow there's like a assumption of more energy being directed into that connection and relationship.
Nicole: Uh huh. That's actually what I was going to pin back. I've been talking about this a lot in my community of just, right, if we think about friendships, it's conceptualize how we will space out. Oh, okay. I'll see this friend every month. I'll see this friend once a year. I'll see this friend. But the second it's sex, it's because of purity culture, because of internalized mononormativity, right?
Oh, this is, oh, every day, every week, every, like some frequency, right? Like really frequency here, right? And so, oh my God. Okay. To be able to know internally of. Wow. That was a delicious cake. I just had, I think I want to have that every week, maybe once a month. I don't know. That sounds good. The amount of internal insight in a society that's so sexually repressed and expectations of people pleasing, etc, etc.
It takes so much internal work to be able to actually name that in your sexual dynamics of like, hey, this play was really fun. Let's do it again in a month, right? Like. Like there's so much pressure around that. And so I think part of the relationship anarchy for me and myself is actually like, what is my appetite for this person?
Jeff: Yes. Yes. That's a great word.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah
Jeff: And and and navigating that and you know, um, can I have the the the same freedom in? You know, and again, it's based on reaching a certain level of rapport with a person and connection with that person to say, Hey, let's go out to dinner. Let's go to a concert or let's fuck, you know, like, just to be in that dynamic of You know what that bridge that we've co created together represents and me being okay with you say, hey, i'd love to go to a concert.
Hey, you know what i'm not kind of feeling the Physical fucking kind of energy right now And and just to like flow with that And then I kind of look at someone I've worked with that's a therapist talks about this bridge of rapport. And where am I on the bridge? Am I on your side? And in your business, we might call it codependency, or am I on my side?
And I'm kind of withdrawn and isolated. And, and, you know, I personally have experienced and it's more my generational thing, I think, where women want the man to pursue them. You know, and, and you're kind of holding back on, on your side of the bridge. And this woman that I've had a few sexual dates with, she sent me this video of a woman kind of doing a rap, like a poetry jam around.
We'll give them our heart before we'll give them Our pussy and it's like, doesn't that seem a little backwards? It's like, you know, maybe you just let sex be what it is. And this, this person deserve your heart, your heart.
Nicole: Yeah.
Jeff: I mean, Hey, can they satisfy you physically that emotional piece? And so I think that again, you know, it's been this experiment for me, um, of yeah, I've tripped, I've fallen.
I get back up, kind of look back at What my piece of it was, right? What did I not see? Yeah. Right. Um, what was I unaware of? And then now, you know, live in life and, and I have amazing people in my life doing some incredible things and, you know, who I invite into my bed. Just another piece of that.
Nicole: Yeah, absolutely.
It's like decoupling, you know, do you have to have the heart and sex together? Yeah. No. Right. Do you want it? Sure. I don't know. It's up to you, my friend. What do you want? I mean, your life. Live with the freedom, you know? Exactly. And so like, yeah, like deconstructing those cultural scripts and just thinking about, um, What a paradigm shift it is to go through this level of awakening, and I'm conscious of the ways that the non monogamy community, um, again, we're talking about relationship anarchy, but frequently the non monogamy community looks back at monogamous folks as unenlightened, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again.
That's like looking at the men and being like, men are unenlightened. It's like, Hey, I hear you. Right. Right. We all have patriarchy, right? Right. And right. And it's, it's not all men. It's not all CIS heads. It's not all monogamous folks. Right. So I think we just have to hold nuance for the reality of. There is a level of deconstruction of mononormativity and deconstructing patriarchy and deconstructing all these other things that does put you into a radically different paradigm.
And you could go through all of that paradigm shifting and then choose what sometimes is labeled as conscious monogamy, right? Is almost this like awakened version of, you know, all of that again. And maybe that language is complex in terms of what we're saying about other people, but like, we do have to hold the fact that once you've gone to this level of like, okay.
Let's take off the relationship escalator. Let's take off these assumptions. Let's take off the romance myth that if you love me, it has to be only me. And that if you have sex, it has to be only me. And then you get to the space, like, that is a radically different paradigm that you are now moving through the world with.
And, and along the way to getting to that is messy and continual mess and mess and mess and mess. And then we look back and we're like, damn, I learned a lot.
Jeff: Yeah.
Nicole: It's crazy.
Jeff: What does this word conscious, right? A, what does this word ethical mean? I, uh, there there's a, uh, uh, Instagram, what's it? Wednesday?
Oh, I forget her first name. She's written a book on, uh, women's Desire. It's called Untrue. You know, she was posting a couple of things about this idea of ethical and conscious. I use a different word, intentional. Mm. I love that monogamous. Intentionally being in my relationships and it might be, you know, monogamous, it might be non monogamous.
And so it just makes it clear that I'm bringing my intention
to the you know dynamic that I want to create and you know, again, let's just be honest. It's around the sex piece,
Nicole: right? Which makes me think part of this movement is and all movements and cultural movements is a lack of language to describe these things Which makes me think?
As someone who's a part of this journey of shaping this, I'm thinking how it could maybe be helpful for particularly relationship anarchists to get outside of the frame of monogamy and non monogamy because it puts this binary to our relational world versus what about a conversation of uh, sexual fidelity and sexual self governance, right?
Like do you move through the world with a Agreement to practice sexual fidelity here with this person even within this polycule, right? Do you have that practice there if it's a closed system or are you moving through the world with sexual self governance? Which is not complete chaos, right? Let's talk about anarchy.
It's about community so of course if you have You know, a fluid bond with one person. You're not just going to go and have unprotected sex with another person when you're moving with sexual self governance. Let's get really clear. It's not just do your own shit, right? But I almost think that maybe that dichotomy could kind of get us past this conversation of, oh, I'm here and doing this.
It's like, no, I practice this. That this is how I practice my sex stuff. Right? Because that's what we're talking about.
Jeff: Yeah, and and it's funny You know, we mentioned earlier this idea of we relationship anarchy. We don't put labels on our relationships But just using that term we put a label
It's kind of circular reasoning that I got going on there And then, you know, how that gets navigated and, and this idea of people think anarchy is about that chaos.
Anarchy is about more from my world of not letting someone impose their rules and boundaries on me. I totally want to honor yours and hear yours and, you know, create that container. You mentioned earlier the landscape and left out the whole landscape of trauma. That we have sexual trauma that people getting as well, and, you know, we're in such a society that wants to label something.
And I don't know if you've heard this, this concept of other ring, those other people. Are the problem with you and, you know, I want to step back and, and find those co creative and, you know, explore this landscape of, you know, this life that I have as, as an individual, free will, sovereign being, and you the same and where's the intersection of that.
And I guess the thing, this is something that I struggle with a bit right now is, and it's not a, you said about the non monogamous polyamorous community can sometimes think that, that they're somehow more enlightened than, than other people. It's like, well, what does that mean enlightenment? It's like, and, you know, the whole concept of woke, you know, to me.
It, it's really about seeing where you're at and just meeting you there.
Nicole: Yeah.
Jeff: And, and for, and the struggle I have is I have a pretty high bar, you know, and, and it will dictate at what level. Of intimacy, I'm willing to have with you the same woman who, who shared this, you know, this, this video around why we withhold the pussy over the end, give away the heart, she said, it's much easier for me to share my body with you than it is to share my heart.
And it's like, I get it, right. And so it's again about that incremental and, and, and here's the thing, it's not a time, it's a willingness to kind of dive into that depth, that transparency, that, you know, how much am I willing to share that vulnerability? I mean, vulnerability.
Nicole: Yeah, and I have to make very specific decisions of who I do that with, right?
Based on, you know, who that person is, what I've gained about their worldview, et cetera, et cetera. And so the empowerment to make that choice of, I'm not going to open up about this more vulnerable thing that I'm currently chewing on and processing because relationships are mirrors. They're more than mirrors.
They're also, you know, a story, a canvas. But when we look into that mirror, if I open up about this tender thing I'm processing, and then you judge me and it's impossible to not be impacted by that. Right. And so imagine trying to look in a broken mirror and being like, struggling to see yourself and go, why, why am I so hurt by that?
It's like. we opened ourself up to this person. So I make very intentional as best as I can every day. I'm learning right to, to, to check in and be like, ah, do I want to share this with this person? Do I want to open up? And I think that's a very specific thing to do in this because I, uh, you know, like even just a recent experience in my, uh, rock climbing community where I was like, Oh, I practice non monogamy.
And the person goes, Oh God, I wouldn't want to catch STDs. And I was like, Okay. Okay. That was a miss my friend. That was a miss and very indicative of where you're at and I'm going to gauge future conversations of how much I disclose now and I think you'll eventually like my conversations about free will because I think it's really fascinating to think about what it means in terms of self governance.
How do we move through free with free will when you're We are social beings that are shaped by our society in such ways that it does drastically alter what we consider to be possible, right? Like when I was in Christian culture and I was straight and monogamous, even though I'm queer and a relationship anarchist now, did I have free will at that point, right?
My existential professor would say, yes, you had Free will with what's within your existential awareness, right? But like, fuck that existential awareness was really restricted by some systems. So I continue to just chew on what free will means for all of us and scratch my head about it all. Cause that's an important part of this too, right?
It's messy.
Jeff: Well, now, now it's my turn to push back on you a little bit around this idea of vulnerability, you know, not to this place where, you know, can I just bear my chest to you and just open my heart Stand fully in that and know that you could plunge a knife into it. And yeah, it's going to be painful, but it won't kill me.
And it will very quickly. Let me see the dynamic and then I say, okay, now there's a boundary here. And, and so, uh, you know, and, and that's just, uh, maybe it's a place I'm at in my life. And like, what does it take to get there? And as a kid, we used to hear this, this sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me.
That's a fucking lie.
Nicole: Right. Exactly.
Jeff: That's a different part. Right. And worse, it hurts a part that's not necessarily visible on the outside.
Nicole: Right. Right. Given what I do with psychedelic sex relationships, there's definitely been spaces where like I've quite literally experienced backlash in the clinical psychology system and been, yeah.
So it's just such a difficult space to know like, yeah, when is it safe? When is it not? But I can imagine that the rootedness of your lived experience, right. So like get to the Space where you're just like, I'm me. I've lived these many years and you can't change my rooted tree that I am. You know what I mean?
So I, I hope that all of us can get to that space of like deep rootedness in who we are.
Jeff: Absolutely. And, and again, it is very much life circumstance. You know, I'm outside the system now. Yeah. Lucky I don't have to give a shit about what they think. And, you know, good for you woman, you're navigating that system.
And you are out there on the front line. I appreciate that. You're gonna take, you know, the, the, you know, I, I don't like, you know, violent metaphors, but. Right. You know, the first man or woman over the wall takes a lot of bullets.
Nicole: Totally, totally, totally.
Jeff: And, and so, you know. Uh, that's why I, I love what you're doing and, you know, appreciate it.
Would love to support it in any way. Thank you. And, you know, and, and yeah, is it going to take 2 years, 5 years, 10 years? But if we don't talk about it and if we don't educate it around it, Then it's never going to change.
Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's been a journey and a half, a fun one to climb the mountain, especially when I'm thinking about the future of like sex therapy with psychedelics.
Like, Oh, like that mountain sounds real. I'm going to climb it, but fuck, that sounds really complicated. But I think it's also a part of this space of like, sure. Not privileged in various ways, but I also, white, you know, passing heterosexual from the streets, who knows, right? So I think, also when we are moving through this world, what does it mean with our privilege to be the one that tries to go over the wall and tries to do it in a very like, I have benefits, let me use it to actually be the one that takes that.
Jeff: Absolutely. Right. Using privilege is not about standing above. It's about lifting others up. Right. And how do we create that system? How do we create that container where, you know, we, we, for those that are ready to take that step up to take that next journey and, you know, how much of rules or, or, or even commitments in relationships are just a way for me to protect something that I don't want to face.
Sure. Right. And again, not my, um, business to project onto you that you should deal with that. Right. That that's again, it's a personal sovereignty thing. And so navigating from that, it, it, it's,
it's cliche. It's, it's the journey, right? We don't have a destination in mind here. It's just that journey and being able to hold a bigger container and You know, the thing I've found that like, so when you disclosed with your, your friend that you were non monogamous and they reacted around STI, you know, I, okay.
That then informs me around where this person is thinking. And, and then I like to get curious and is there a question like, first, is there an openness? I might ask a question that maybe helps them see that assumption that they've made. And, you know, no attachment to it. It's more of a curiosity thing. And to me, that's, that's the way I find people who are more on this kind of evolutionary path.
Nicole: Sure. Yeah. I know we talked a little bit about the difficulties, but I'm curious, what are some of the joys of relationship anarchy?
Jeff: It just really fulfilling relationships. I have people in my life that I know I can go anywhere with. And, you know, again, an example, 10 years ago, my father passed away and, uh, a woman that I've known for 20 plus years, and we've never really had a sexual dynamic and, you know, up until like.
Kind of adopted this relationship anarchy mindset. I wouldn't have seen it as that kind of relationship, but it is and I called her up and I said, you know, I just need somebody to hold me. Well, I cry and and so there's a beauty in that. We're not putting all our physical, emotional, intellectual eggs in one basket.
Nicole: Yeah. An expansive garden of connection. There's so much beauty in that.
Jeff: Exactly. And, you know, and there's dimension of, you know, what is love? What is intimacy? And what is sexuality? And they're independent of one another, you know, and, and, You know, I have incredible loving people in my life and you know, many of my friends, I've, I've lived in my house for 30 years and, and so my neighborhood, we raised kids together, we socialize together.
I'm the single crazy one in the group . And they know, you know, they, they don't always ask, you know? Yeah. I, I think because they, they respect me enough to know, um, that who I am as a person. And so there's, there's that richness to it and, and, and also, you know, the personal growth around relationship. We need other people to rub up against and yeah, it's painful, but painful, you know, in my case it, it wakes me up, you know, Oh doctor, it hurts when I do this.
Well maybe you should stop doing that.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. We grow in relationships and so much growth even through our conversation for both of us here today and. You know, the last question of all of this is, what do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy?
Jeff: That's a possibility. You know, everybody knows celibacy is.
Everybody knows what monogamy is. Non monogamy is pretty much everything else. And this landscape that I've come to experience in relationship anarchy feels the most natural and kind of welcoming and freeing for me. It's also the most growthful and challenging as well. And, and so I guess, you know, how well do you want to know you?
So there's intimacy and there's into me. I see. And I just, you know, I have amazing people in my life, a joyful, happy. And it doesn't mean that I don't have my days where it's like, On the couch, you know, streaming some, you know, mindless thing on the TV or on my, my tablet, you know, but there's a freedom to it.
Nicole: Yeah. Many days of crying, confusion, misunderstanding myself, all of it. Right. And I'm here for it. So I'm so happy that you were able to join us today and be able to, you know, take a step towards changing the paradigms, right. Creating this public conversation so that we can really. Continue to change the cultural conversation around this practice.
Jeff: Yeah. And thank you for doing that work and, you know, going over the wall and, you know, and, and putting the energy into, you know, creating this container to have that conversation because that that's just as important and, you know, uh, and, and this is kind of a personal kind of. Perspective is you as a woman.
I think it's even more powerful coming from, from that perspective, because we, again, we have such a social conditioning, you know, a man who has a lot of desire as a stud and a woman who has a lot of desire is a slut.
Nicole: Right, right.
Jeff: And you know what? Um, so I think that that's important. And, and, you know, yeah, the generation that is, I think the millennials are, are struggling with back to this.
It's a very different world. So thank you for being the. impetus for having these conversations.
Nicole: I appreciate that a lot. I really appreciate that. And the sceneness of, yeah, trying to shatter the Madonna and the whore complex to stand in the middle proudly and to say, yeah, and then to do it eventually with my doctor title behind the name and be like, yeah, now realist.
Listen to me now. You know? So hopefully using that power to wield the ability to kind of break that binary as much as I can. So I appreciate that seeing this and I want to hold a little bit of space just to check in and see if there's anything else you wanted to say with the listeners. Otherwise, I have a closing question that I ask everybody on the podcast.
Jeff: Yeah, I think we've covered a pretty broad landscape and, you know, I guess what I would say to everybody, this is your personal journey out there. Yeah. You know, use it as the mirror, use it as the opportunity and decide what destination you're sailing towards. And as you're on that journey. It's okay to change course.
Nicole: Absolutely. Yes, yes, following your pleasure will take you to unexpected destinations.
Jeff: Exactly. Sometimes we have this desire and it brings us together because we're here to complete something. And other times we have this desire because we're here to come together and move forward and co create. The challenge is you don't know which it is until you follow the desire.
Nicole: Totally. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, if it feels good to you, I'll ask that last closing question for us.
Jeff: Bring it on, Nicole.
Nicole: Okay. So the closing question that I ask everybody on the podcast is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Jeff: There is no normal.
Nicole: Hey, again, anarchist test. You passed, right?
That's the first, first answer. Check, check.
Jeff: And, you know, uh, discovering your landscape and, and, you know, and, Um, we live in such a fear based world and, you know, our mind is really good at making up stories, you know, fear, false evidence appearing real and go experience something. Sometimes I don't know where my boundaries are until I've stepped past them.
And, and so then it becomes important to, you know, do it with intention. Enjoy your journey and know that you will experience pain. Um, you'll experience incredible joy. Uh, you'll experience, you know, challenges. Right. And, um, to give yourself the freedom to do that and have the courage, you know, when I was doing some of my shadow coaching training, I got to this place where I said to myself, there's no part of me that I'm not willing to see.
And in that, I, Discovered a level of freedom that I could not have imagined before and I think that's the hard part that that little existential bubble that we live in. It's hard to imagine what's on the outside of that. And if you've started down this journey, I think relationship anarchy is a great again, mindset and kind of practice in which to expand that.
Nicole: Yes. I really want to thank you for bringing your vulnerability into the space and for sharing about your lived experience. There's always for me, a joy in these conversations of relationship anarchy because, um, I'm I didn't know you prior to this hour and a half that we spent together, right? But there's a knowingness in the words relationship anarchy and what that means to both of us.
And so there's always such a joy and a zest for life that comes out of these conversations and then a profound grief to know that I could probably talk to you for hours and learn from you for hours, right? And have to keep myself to some level of closure. And so I just want to thank you for joining me today.
Jeff: You're welcome. Thank you for inviting me
Nicole: If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast. And head on over to ModernAnarchyPodcast. com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in, and I will see you all next week.
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