Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, Nicole. On today's episode, we have Ren Cerebral. Join us for another relationship anarchy research conversation. Together we talk about trying to explain relationship anarchy to your parents. The eroticism of intellectual alignment, and the power of a frame shift. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday.
My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice, supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships. Dear listener, every single one of these relationship anarchy episodes, this special series, touches my heart.
I am so moved by every conversation as a relationship anarchist myself. I am so inspired, I am so excited to be able to share these conversations with you. I remember a couple of summers back, beginning my dissertation process and interviewing relationship anarchists from around the world, asking them these same questions, and feeling so inspired by these conversations, feeling such an expansion process in my consciousness around how to Language and intentionality and just so much learning from the ways that people in our community craft intentional relationships And so it was that original inspiration for my dissertation That inspired me to bring these conversations onto the podcast And to share them with all of you in the world Dear listeners, and I'm so honored by all of you Relationship Anarchists who have trusted me to submit your answers to the research, to apply, to come on to the show.
Every one of you is changing me and helping me to see more of the movement, and I'm so happy to have you here as part of that collective, as part of that community, and Dear listener, if you are a relationship anarchist, I hope you know that the door is open for you. You can submit your answers to the questions, you can apply to come on to the show for a conversation like this one today, and you can also That door is going to be open for you for a long time as we continue to explore as a community what it means to practice relationship anarchy.
Alright, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can check out my offerings and resources at modernanarchypodcast. com linked in the show notes below. And I want to send the biggest heartfelt thank you and such deep gratitude for all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long term sustainability of the podcast.
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So then the first question I like to ask each guest is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Ren: Yes, you'd think this would be easy. Ah, yes. Yeah, so I am a Ren Cerebral. I use they, them pronouns. I am queer. I'm a crowd freak. I am disabled. I, I've started to, um, identify as a crippled, uh, dyke fag.
I think that strikes something for me in a way that, uh, other identifiers haven't in the past. And I feel like it captures, like, the energy of, like, reclamation of, of terms that, you know, could be used against me. I'm a white person. I am from the Midwest. Podcaster, casual writer, very casual. Yeah, I think those are the things that come to mind the most for me.
Nicole: Great. And I'm excited to have you on the podcast today and get to talk about all things relationship anarchy with you.
Ren: Me too. Thank you for having me.
Nicole: Yeah. It's a pleasure. As much as it will be for you, we'll both have fun doing this one. Yeah. Well then, the first question of the research is, what is relationship anarchy?
Ren: Yeah. What is relationship anarchy? I know. Easy question, right? Easy. Everyone wants to know. Yeah. Yeah. So, there's a lot, you know, there's a lot of different interpretations of relationship anarchy. And sometimes, like, when I'm asked to This question, I feel like I want to go look at the definition and like make sure I'm representing it, you know, totally accurately or yeah, you know, having something more concrete.
But if I were to just off the cuff define relationship anarchy, I would say that it is a relationship orientation. That prioritizes friendship and like de hierarchizes like the different forms of relating because as we know in the standard dominant cultures like romance is at the top and all other connections are, yeah, not as significant and yeah, there's a whole, even in polyamory.
You know, which I think a lot of people find them to be synonymously polyamory and relationship anarchy. There's people who think that they're synonymous with one another, and I think that they can be compatible personally, but I think it's important to distinguish them because of the way that relationship anarchy, I feel like it enables resisting the couple form, um, and having the couple be at the center of everything.
So that's what comes to mind and I was like, I know I can always say more, but right.
Nicole: Of course, of course. Yeah. I'll add in with you. I know. Yeah. A lot of people seem to connect solo poly, right. And relationship anarchy and from my understanding of relationship anarchy, it exists in this Third space, right?
It's, you know, kind of outside of the bifurcation of monogamy, non monogamy, because as you were already saying, right, that bifurcation points to the question of, do you have one or multiple sexual and romantic partners versus this orientation where we're dismantling even that as the signifier, right? And stepping outside to this view of, wow, we all have.
multiple relationships, right? What would it mean to visit those with intentionality and the principles of anarchy?
Ren: Yes, yeah, and that fact, the anarchy and anarchism as a central thing is, yeah, something I think it's left out a lot, even, yeah, even the dominant spaces where, like, the Relationship Anarchy Facebook group, um, which, you know, like, and I, I can hold space for, for nuance and complexity, but, you know, Yeah, I mean, I feel like we've all seen it, so the depoliticization of it, but yeah, it is central, uh, to the practice.
What you just said, this is making, about, within relationship anarchy, like, having it be this, this third space, or like, whatever, how hard it is when you're in the, the dominant system to articulate your relationships to anyone else who isn't also on the same page Is subscribing to, um, trying to challenge the way that we think about relationships because, like, I have tried to move away from using words like partner, which I don't think needs to be a rule to others.
I definitely have expanded my view to understand that, like, language is fluid and I think that using labels can be compatible with relationship anarchy. I think that context matters. It does say something to me when When I'm taking out the, the labels that have such huge cultural significance and then when it becomes so much harder to have any legibility with how significant relationships are.
Um, there's some, you know, some relationships are to me because if I'm like describing, for example, to my parents.
Nicole: Right.
Ren: This friend of mine and, you know, they're like, well, I, you know, I have plans with this friend. I can't come to this thing that you've perceived as a social obligation and I'm like. And they're like, you know, huh?
Yeah. It's just, it was a friend, like,
Nicole: right.
Ren: It's like my friends are my loves, like my, my beloveds like mm-Hmm. I put my heart and soul into these connections and they mean so much to me. It's not some the substandard right thing.
Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah. Such a hard piece, right? When, you know, my, my feelings were coming up as you were describing that was, uh, or the feelings that were coming up for me as you were describing that was how much time do you got?
I got, I got lots of words to describe how I do this relationship thing, but how much time do you have slash also. Where is this person at? Right? Like, is this my grandmother who is not even going to comprehend just, you know, I love her, right? Not going to comprehend the amount of words I'm going to spew out before her.
So I maybe try to make a simplified version or just accept that she won't understand me. Right. But like you're saying, it's kind of pinning to that pain point in terms of. Uh, not being understood for the importance of these relationships and also, in my opinion, just how we as a culture lack language for some of the significance that, uh, other relationships can play in our lives.
Ren: Yeah, for sure. That resonates with me.
Nicole: Yeah. And, you know, next juicy question. How do you practice relationship anarchy?
Ren: Yes, I do remember this. I can't even remember what I typed. But, for me, I start, you know, I started out with Having a in quotes monogamous relationship that then was like open and you know it was a process for me to like come to the way that I understand what relationship anarchy is to me now.
When I'm looking back I feel like I've always had a similar framework of how I do relationship anarchy and how I navigate my relationships, which is that I've always had a super high emphasis on my friendships. I try to be very intentional. About not having relationships, which include physical intimacy, sex, or things that are traditionally related with romance.
I try to make sure that I'm not just putting those at the top and, you know, I try to evaluate across like multiple measures, all of my connections to decide how much energy that I want like to put into those connections. And I try to really resist, yeah, using these standards. I guess prescriptive notions about how relationships should function.
I have all sorts of relationships that are significant to me. The significance does not hinge on any specific thing that is contained within the relationship. The thing that is like a through line into all of my closest relationships. Is a feeling of like emotional safety or like often like actually like intellectual alignment is for me.
I find myself really prioritizing connections where I can just sit and like have very intellectual conversations with them. The relationships that have things are. Associated traditionally with romantic relationships or the relationships that we're told that we should prioritize those are actually like a much smaller percentage of my time and energy than anything else.
But I also have a lot of possibility for anything in most of my connections and and there's a lot of communication.
Nicole: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Ren: I think it's like that's. That's what I got for that.
Nicole: Great.
Ren: Right now. Yeah.
Nicole: Great. Yeah. Definitely resonate with you on the intellectual connection. I'm, you know, Oh, my favorite.
I love that. I love the long, juicy, you know, conversations you can have with people on theories and ideas and just thinking about our existential existence and the way that we are isolated up in here. To be able to have someone who can understand that perspective and see us and kind of, you know, almost the opposite of what you were talking about earlier of, uh, I use this word and the other people don't understand the meaning of that to have someone who does understand that and then sees you.
Ooh, that's so beautiful. I love that. Right? Yes. But yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. And so I love this idea. Space too, of holding the importance of relationships that are outside of this frame of romance and sex and even romance. I'm like, how do we define that? Right? Yeah. You know, you know. Yeah. .
Ren: But yeah, I, that's one thing that I am constantly hung up on.
Yeah. I, I love the aromantic manifest, so I don't know if you. Yeah, definitely that struck, you know, struck something in me and I at this point use the term just thinking that there's a high chance. of likelihood that whoever I'm talking to, even if they don't subscribe to, to like romance or like any, yeah, any of the things that were taught about romance, that there's going to be some understanding of what the dominant culture associates with romance.
Nicole: Yeah, it does. Yeah. And the dominant culture has so many narratives, right? And I think sometimes we forget how, or I certainly forget how influential those narratives can be on our psyches, right? I, I've called out this language a lot on the podcast, this, Oh, I'm single. Oh, I'm single. What? I hate that. Right?
Exactly. It's like, I, I don't mean to make assumptions, but I'm about to assume that you do have some, at least one other relationship in your life. Okay. Yes. Yes. The paradigm of that frame though, of singleness puts it into this, this I'm alone. I have no one else. Right. And again, you can, you can, Practice sexual fidelity with relationship anarchy.
We can practice practice sexual self governance, right? And that freedom with relationship anarchy. It's not necessarily about that. Again, we're, we're getting outside of this. And so I think that we still need to dismantle these very mononormative Frameworks of this one person is going to be my whole world versus wow.
Okay. I have all of these relationships and what would it mean to write a lovely poem or a handwritten letter to this person that is so important in my life that I don't have sex with. And when you start to do that, at least for me, and I'd be curious if this is your lived experience with it. My world starts to feel so much more color and life.
Ren: Yes.
Nicole: You know, it's not just this one person, it's this, oh wow, I have all of these? Oh my god, I'm in so much abundance of love, you know?
Ren: Yes, yes, definitely. That resonates with me. It makes me sad when people use the language of being single. I feel like it is information. Right. You subscribe to this notion of your worth is somehow tied to, I feel, I feel like that implies that the worth is somehow tied.
To whether or not you can secure a romantic connection,
Nicole: right?
Ren: And it is rare. I will say I most of my friends are on a similar wavelength as me right now. But when I have friends who describe themselves as single, it's to the point where I feel like I want to say that like that feels offensive to me if I feel like we have like a connection that is like really reciprocal.
And like, I guess, like, I might want to ask them a question like, do you feel like. You're not getting things out of our relationship and not to make it about me but just like or even just ask like do you really feel like you're not getting anything of Significance out of any other relationship in your life Because it does feel Insulting to deny the fact that we are all so inherently interconnected and there are people who are very alone And I think that, like, for me, a lot of my background is, like, with disability studies and, uh, critical disability thought, um, and, like, disability justice.
And so, I, I mean, I'm very aware of people who are very, very alone. Yeah. And the isolation of being disabled, especially during the pandemic, is so real. And a lot of times people who are describing themselves as single, they're not in that isolation. So, I think that that does. Inform some of my reaction as well to that language when I'm like, I see you out there surrounded with people who could love you.
And, um, you know, what can we do to acknowledge that more rather than feed into that myth of isolation when it when it is a myth. And sometimes it's not a miss, but it's, you know, it often is.
Nicole: Exactly. Yeah. The narrative. How is the frame? What's the frame for this picture? Right. And it makes a huge difference.
I was thinking, uh, you know, it's almost one of those like, uh, yellow flags, you know, we're like, okay, I hear you. Let's talk about what that word means to you. Because. It is. It might then, yeah, signify a certain paradigm of where they're at and the, you know, needing to protect ourselves if that person is the kind of person who falls in love with someone and then disappears, right?
That is a lived experience. Of this game. And so kind of, you know,
Ren: I know.
Nicole: And it's also kind of like when I, I've, I've met people who are dating and they'll have, you know, like a handful of relationships that they're dating at the same time and they're like, oh, I'm dating casually. And I'm like. What does that mean?
What does casual mean? It sounds like you have multiple relationships, and I've tried to explain a little bit of like, hey, my relationships are so intentional. I don't care if I see that person once a year. It's not casual by any means.
Ren: I love that distinction. Yeah, we're like, yeah, it's not about frequency, like focusing on the intention of it.
Nicole: Right.
Ren: Not to interrupt you.
Nicole: No, it's great. It's great. We're going to get excited and go back and forth about it. Right?
Ren: Yeah. Um, well, I, I did also want to say, you know, to like, I guess continue on the answer of your question. Sure. It's about how I do relationship anarchy, and I forget to elaborate on things because it's become my norm.
Yeah, totally. I forget, you know, to think about the audience, but anyways. I don't have any relationship that's like primary, where, um, I'm checking in to ask for permission for anything. And even though I haven't used this smorgasbord a ton, at least like sitting down with it, but I actually, ironically, might be later today with a friend, so I'm like excited about it.
But like, overall, I haven't done it a ton, but I've used it as a tool of reflection And I have the spirit of it in my connections, where I will, you know, ask questions, and I don't make assumptions about, like, what other people are allowed to do, or what they're interested in, like, um, even when the other person doesn't identify as a relationship anarchist, when I was, like, identifying as polyamorous, more primarily, I would always be, like, thinking about Oh, like if this person is like dating someone or, you know, like I need to be thinking about what that person's okay with or thinking about this, these relationships outside of myself.
And, um, I feel like there was some dominant, like things that were floating around and polyamorous pieces that were enabling that kind of mentality to release. That feeling of needing to like worry about all these different rules that could exist that aren't what I'm doing It's been such a liberating force and I think has also invited other people To own their own autonomy and their own behaviors, even when we aren't identifying the same way.
Nicole: Sure. Yeah, I appreciated what you shared there in terms of the freedom of letting go of that, like, you know, desire to control another. I think. That's why I like the word self governance, right? What does it mean to trust that person that they're going to move through the world with their autonomy? And, um, I know there's a lot of differentiation between rules and boundaries, right?
And so maybe we don't rule other people. We have boundaries of what we're comfortable with. Right. And so I think maybe an example of that is, you know, if I'm connecting with someone and we're, Fluid bonding, right? I do have a boundary that you need to tell me if you're going to, you know, start to embark upon that with other people, because I think it's something that impacts me right in that way.
Uh, one of the examples I've had of self governance. I think, has been with, um, one of my partners. We're in this community together of people. And these are the people that I would see for Thanksgiving and Christmas and have become my chosen family. And I've asked this partner, you know, if you were starting to develop romantic and or sexual feelings.
Could you just let me know first before you act on that? Because this is going to impact every Christmas and Thanksgiving and holiday party into a new world that I would certainly want to know. So I could prepare my heart to start to stretch to that capacity. So it's been such like a nuanced thing for me of, yeah.
When do we allow that for? Freedom of self governance versus, uh, my somatic nervous system is going to go into a state of dysregulation. If I see you making out with my best friend in the corner, like I wasn't ready for that, please tell me, you know?
Ren: Yeah. And I, I mean, it sounds to me like, you know, like what you're saying is you're giving your partner information to then be able to use to, to like understand.
Best how to like be in connection with you right in a way that feels safe for you. And I feel like based on what you're saying, it sounds like your partner can choose. To not use the information in a way that, that, you know, honors what you desire.
Um, and then if that were to happen, it's like, you know, you have the choice.
Yeah, with what you want to do with yourself to make sure that you can be safe and somatically grounded because that's so important. And for me, I feel like I would like to have that in my connections as well. Like, uh, some people that I've encountered. Yeah. Or like relationship anarchists and would see that expression of need or what, what you described, they might see that as like somehow not compatible with the framework.
And I don't think that that is right. Because our somatic experience in the world is, even if we have values. That are different than, uh, what your body's responding to. It's like we still have been socialized with all these different norms. And so I kind of see it as like a, potentially like a harm reduction.
Like, it's like it never hurts to communicate. I, I think, and hopefully if your partner was like, not able to do that, then they can say actually, you know, I don't know if I would be able to communicate that to you, and then you can use that information to like, you know, move forward, but, but
Nicole: yeah. Exactly.
Ren: Rules and boundaries. It really, it really is something that can trip us up so much. Absolutely.
Nicole: Yeah, I think I'm in agreement with you that I don't think that it's anti anarchy to ask for that check in of commitment, right? Because from what I understand about anarchy is that it's about understanding, sure, self governance, right?
Dismantling power structures, but it's also about community connection. That's what makes it different than libertarianism, right? Like, it is this understanding that we exist in community. And so when I do make that step, it's going to impact other people. And so how can I hold that in a way? And I appreciated what you said in terms of, you know, once you have that information of what's going to make me feel good in my nervous system, You have complete freedom to choose whether you want to stay in this relationship with me and work with me there or not, right?
That's the freedom of it and, uh, the ability of all of us. I don't think that anarchy is against commitments and against, uh, understanding our, uh, The ways that we move about through the world and how that impacts other people and there really is no end to that I hope that people start to think about that deeper of wow Okay, what sort of consciousness do I need to hold for my community to be in right relationship with them?
I'm like good that is where we want to think that is that's how we dismantle climate change and these other things, right? It's like oh, oh the personals political. We're right here. We need to be working intentionally and all of the stuff stuff and holding the larger implications for our actions.
Ren: Yeah, I, I really appreciate all that you just said.
And it feels violent to, uh, not have any kind of acknowledgement that we impact other people. Like, I mean, that's what's at the foundation of all of these systems of oppression is, you know, this, uh, individualism. Yeah. Absolutely. You know, it's just like, we are all, we are all interconnected. We all impact each other.
Seems like a good first step into like dismantling systems of power is to simply acknowledge that like,
Nicole: Right.
Ren: We impact each other.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yes, we could write books about that. And we certainly will. Right.
Ren: I got to like, stop myself. I know me too. So many tangents that I could go on.
Nicole: Absolutely.
Absolutely. Well, so the next question I do have in the research to keep us on track with something is, uh, why do you practice relationship anarchy? I feel like we're already starting to hit on that, but yeah, why? Yeah.
Ren: Why? Oh, yeah. Stories. Yeah. Yeah. Why? Why practice relationship anarchy? I have an experience of growing up actually with a very controlling friendship,
um, which like a lot of people that I've talked to, sometimes their origin story is about a controlling relationship, but often is usually in the context of love, romance or a partner.
And for me, that wasn't, uh, that wasn't the case. As soon as I was able to get out of that over a decade long codependent dynamic, I just I felt it was so important to never be so restricted ever again. Another thing is, uh, I've mentioned like being disabled and I think growing up, I, there's stories that were told to me because my disability is congenital.
I identify with the term disfigurement. Because there's like craniofacial stuff, and my hands are impacted, I am perceived to be deviant, and always have been since I was like a little kid. The stories that I was told led me to believe that I actually would not have access. To romance or Wow. This ideal of like, uh, yeah, the, the relationships that we should be seeking.
But somewhere along the line, like I've noticed that there's kind of two ways you can go is you can either be like, no, I wanna prove them wrong and I'm gonna find the one and like, I'm gonna win .
Yeah. By then assimilating into mm-Hmm. dominant culture. And I wasn't trying to do that, but like, I met someone who.
When I was 19 years old, and I'm now 29, so 10 years ago, and I met someone who I was like, Oh, I can be in a romantic relationship with this person. And that's a person I was like, in what I call monogamy, but really it was just like, I guess, Was like sexual fidelity.
Nicole: Right. Yeah.
Ren: This is a way that I do friendship. It's so fluid.
Nicole: Yeah.
Ren: And, and this person wasn't jealous and it was monogamy in name, but still I wasn't limited.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Ren: And much in the way that I already would connect with other people. I did that for a while and then it just started to be like this, these rules feel so contrived, or like rules, because it's like there wasn't rules that were coming from the person that I was in the relationship with.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Ren: I was just trying to, like, understand what society said was appropriate or not. I'm like, I am someone who likes, I just like sensual, physical intimacy. Sure. With friends. Yeah. And so I'm like, well, what's, at what point is, like, the boundary crossing? Yeah. I don't understand. And then I was like, wait a minute, but you're not jealous anyways.
So like, why, like, why does it even matter? Uh huh. And then, and also I'm queer, and like, This person, I mean, yeah, is only one gender, and there's a lot of genders, and if I wanted to not just have experience with one gender, um, I'm a pansexual, like, you know, like I want to have intimacy with lots of people, and so, so yeah, so basically, it just was like my desire for freedom and then feeling like the monogamy was contrived and didn't make any sense, and then trying polyamory.
And feeling like that made less sense,
because it was like, it felt similar to monogamy, just with more people, and it stressed me out a lot because it felt like there's rules I didn't understand. And I just happened to be around people. Yeah, who also feel similarly. I'm in the Metro Detroit area. So there's like the relationship anarchy group here that does the unconference.
There's so many things, but that's what I'll say.
Nicole: Yeah. Great. Yeah. It sounds like I was hearing this, the way these narratives Restrict your capacity for intimacy and love, right? Just all the different ways where it's supposed to be a box of this is the one person you're supposed to do this, this type of thing with this type of thing, right?
Versus feeling much more expansive connection with people. And that was definitely my lived experience as well as a queer person, you know, prior to discovering that aspect of myself. of myself. I was, you know, very snuggly with people. And once that came into being, I was like, Oh God, can I snuggle no one without cheating on a part?
Oh no. Yeah. You know, it's so stressing. Yeah. The whole world just crumbles right there. And you're like, Oh, okay. What do I do with this now? Right. Um, and so being able to have this space where you can experience. Explore each individual relationship for the beauty that it is and the possibilities that it is, while holding, of course, the community connection and knowing that all of our actions are impacting other people, of course, right?
Within that being able to build these individual relationships, right? Hence the smorgasbord, right? Of being able to have this sort of what's going to work for the two of us rather than the, okay, this is the box. And if you don't fit into the box, I don't, you know, it's not going to work. Right. We're, we're, we're getting off of that escalator to have this white canvas of what do we want to do with intimacy?
You know, what feels good to the two of us. I think that's some of the beauties and the. the scary parts of it, you know, that, that amount of freedom can be overwhelming existentially.
Ren: Yeah, I do think I've learned, I think, why some people really want to hold on to monogamy or strictly polyamory that is more, I guess, rooted in rules based, like, yeah, rules based because having the open canvas feels so Overwhelming. And so for some people, having the structure feels more accessible to them. And I just cannot relate.
I can't relate to that experience. But I do try to. I'm humbled every year, every day. I'm humbled. So I'm like, I have more capacity to hold space for other experiences than I've ever had before. I'm sure that will continue as we age.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Which to me, it's like, it seems, it seems like, of course, if, uh, you know, I'm not about to tell anybody what those labels of monogamy or polyamory mean to them individually. Right. But when we're looking at it collectively again, this is why I keep coming back to this concept of, uh, sexual fidelity versus, yeah, sexual self governance, of course, is, Asexual polyamorous connections.
Great. I think that is even part of what relationship anarchy creates more space for, right? Is even this world, since we're DA prioritizing that. But when we're looking at the monogamy polyamory script, it's so much of this. Do I have sexual more than sexual? Sex with more than one person, right? It comes down to that sort of bifurcation.
And so I think that people can choose to practice sexual fidelity in relationship anarchy and hold the wider frame that other relationships are important, valuable, and worth intentional focus, right? I don't think those things are incompatible. And so for me, it sounds like it's almost this frame shift of, can we get out of this?
Again, we're in those frames, prioritizing sex and romance as the way to understand our whole life. Like, I identify as this and this is how I do it, versus, oh, okay, wow, do I want to practice sexual fidelity with this person, this polycule, these people, or self governance with it, and hold this larger frame of all the different relationships that are important to me.
Okay.
Ren: Mm hmm. Yeah, thank you. I, I, I really like, uh, fidelity versus, like, self governance. I wrote it down. This is something I've talked about a lot where I often find myself communicating with people who identify as monogamous because of their strong desire for sexual fidelity. And I'm like, babe, we're like cuddling and you have, like, A dozen people who love you so much and you make food for each other and like, have so much emotional closeness, like, you don't have, like, you don't have to use that word and you can still just do the things that you're doing.
And so I think that I, I like the level of humility that I've gotten to at this point. I'm able to still be like, okay, well I can have a relationship with these people, even if they still use those words, but like, I am wanting to continuously invite people to re evaluate their commitment to that language only because I think there's so much possibility and that a simple framework shift could have such an impact that, like, isn't fully acknowledged.
Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. I have the same hopes, right, of that framework shift. I think that's why I've been liking, yeah, this video. Discussion of sexual fidelity versus sexual self governance, right? What do you want to practice? And, and that not being the definer of maybe these like camps of thought, right?
Where it's like, you're either monogamy and you think this or poly and you think this or relationship anarchy, I like this liminal third space of intentional. Community and whether you do that or this, you're, you're here and welcome under this umbrella, as long as you are taking those deeper intentional, uh, choices of, is this how you want to construct your relationships, right?
It's that deconstructing of the power and holding the community connection for it. But you're, you're so right. And having to, you know, I think a lot of this is also holding how words mean something for someone else and maybe how we see it, right? Even that person who says, Oh, I practice monogamy. I might sit there and be like, well, do you?
Because, uh, you prob, again, assumptions. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But when we say monogamy, that word means one, two, three, sexual partner for life. So let's get more specific. You practice serial monogamy, right? So, so at that point, then we are saying you practice sexual fidelity with one person, right?
So again, so I'm just words, language, they evolve, they change, right? And so I hope we can create more space and more language through conversations like this, just to keep Thinking about what is the frame that we collectively as a movement want to carry forward for future generations. Yeah.
Ren: For sure. Yeah.
Nicole: Well, the next question I have is, how does relationship anarchy impact your practice of intimacy? And I know we've hit on that in so many different ways, so feel free to dive in.
Ren: It has expanded, you know, my access to intimacy. The first step being, you know, just. Realizing that those rules, like I said, were contrived and then just being like, okay, well now I'm doing something different and then just having that fall away and having that open canvas has made it where, even now, where it's like I'm established and people know I'm a relationship anarchist and like, uh, know that all the possibilities that can exist.
For relationships with me, and I'm still testing the limits, so like, it's like, just writing whatever I want, like, for intimacy, like, I learn so much every, every day about what is possible with other humans. So, it's expanded my capacity for intimacy, and, yeah, taught me things. Mm hmm. About human connection that I Don't think that I ever would have been able to learn otherwise.
Nicole: Yeah, the expansion of those frames. I know it's hard when we get into topics we're excited about, right? We could talk for hours. So I know we talked a little bit too about the difficulties of understanding, right? When people use these words, they might not, you know, they might not understand what relationship anarchy means.
So I'm curious, are there any other difficulties that you'd want to share with the listeners?
Ren: You know, there's a lot, but I think the one thing that I was thinking about that I wanted to highlight in this conversation is talking with my therapist. I had a therapist who actually told me having me as a client influenced him to basically become non monogamous.
Nicole: Wow.
Ren: So, and like that was cool and like, like he was super open minded and I appreciate it. It really valued that connection, but, um, you know, now I'm seeing someone new and I was like really worried about how it was going to go and this person's also seems pretty open minded, but I noticed as I talk, I feel like all these scripts like I think he has a struggle I have is like, Feeling self conscious, like, I, the scripts that come up for me, I'm like, oh gosh, like, um, I, I started therapy this most recent time to focus on somatic intimacies.
Sure. And having that is like the foundation. And then I'm like, oh gosh, like. My therapist must be thinking like, well, what's your problem? You have all these lovers. And like, and I don't know, I mean, I don't know what my therapist is thinking, but I guess it's kind of like, I don't know if you'd say like the cop in your head or like, but just the dominant, yeah, the dominant way of things like just existing within, within me.
Trying to push back against the shame or
Nicole: yeah. Yeah. I will just underscore again. I could write many books on this. Um, I will underscore that in my dissertation research. This was something that came through again and again is how many different therapists because they work under, you know, There's not enough.
Let me just state this pretty flat. There's not enough adequate training on sex and relationships in psychology, let alone diversity. So many therapists will have never heard of the term relationship anarchy, right? Which means they're working from a different frame, which means when they hear these things, it might not be in, you know, the words they say, but it might be on their face.
The structure, the questions they ask, right? Certain things like that, where you're having to do the teaching, which is so unfortunate. And I think that, you know, the field of psychology, again, I'm, I'm getting up on the soapbox. The field of psychology comes from this whole like professionalism. I will not tell you any of my identities because that's how you're a professional.
But that again, is a reflection of white colonial culture, because it's this idea that Everyone can understand you. I can serve all people, right? And having that sort of frame rather than recognizing the situatedness of our positionality and our different identities and how that shapes our ability to understand the world and support other people.
And I, I wish, uh, you know, I hope that more self disclosure comes with the field of, Hey, I am a queer human being. Kinky relationship anarchist. Okay, that is my frame. So, you know, that's where I'm coming from because that's actually I want, you know, I don't want personally someone else who doesn't get this.
Ren: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I love like what my therapist would call tactful self disclosure and I have a friend who's a therapist. And, um, she was like showing me a piece of art, it was like BDSM and it was like, hang in there. And it had someone suspended and wrote. Funny. Like, how, how appropriate do you think this is for my office?
And I'm like, if I saw that in your, in my therapist's office, I would feel safer. I would feel so excited.
Nicole: Yeah.
Ren: I like that you highlighted the origins of why therapists. Behave in these ways of acting as if they don't have an identity or bias, performing their practice. Right.
Nicole: At minimum, put it in the bio, folks.
We love that. Put it in the bio. I don't need to hear your whole life story, right? Because that's not the container for it. But at least put it in the bio. And I think that like your, like your example of your friend is, uh, We talk about the, just the white patriarchal colonial ideas of, Oh, you don't disclose, you don't disclose, but your art discloses, whether you have tattoos discloses, how's your, you know, Oh my, there's just so much there.
So again, I'll, I'll hold myself back from roaring too loud in this space. Um, the next question is, uh, what are the joys you've experienced practicing relationship anarchy? The joys.
Ren: Yeah, seeing just how like living my life and like owning my own experience and way of like doing things the way that it has been an invitation for others to question their own assessments of their relationships.
And yeah, I guess just seeing it as like. A portal and it just doing it is joyful and like, you know, having all this possibility and not feeling restricted. It feels really, really joyful. I should say not feeling restricted by contrived forces. I do. I mean, we have limited capacity and there are inherent restrictions and how many relationships we can be in and all that.
So I don't want to overly romanticize it, but. Just feeling like I can write my story. The self governance that's joyful, but definitely, yeah, just seeing the impact on others and, and then seeing like friends and love with each other and just all the abundance. It's just, it's beautiful. And seeing other people who I love, loving other people is not a threat to me.
I'm reminded of that through the practice over time and like being able to build security, um, in this context that I think most people find inherently insecure. That's a whole other conversation, but you know, yeah, it's like security is possible. I felt it and it's a joy, so
Nicole: yeah, yeah, yeah, I was just thinking about the security you feel through intentionality, the security you feel through meaningful conversations with authenticity, you know, of your desires and fears, et cetera.
The joys of intentionality. Embracing the inevitability of change, right? Oof, you know, you know? Bittersweet, but yeah. Exactly, I was gonna say, as painful as that one is, Oh my gosh, relationships change. Our desires with certain people change and ebb and flow and through all that. I think that part of this framework is that That embracing of that and creating space for that.
And like you said, being able to see your friends, uh, love that compersion with other people. I mean, how beautiful, right? I could simmer in tears of joy for the beauty that that intentional practice really is.
Ren: Yeah. Me too. Yeah. I, I like, honestly, I'm, I'm an easy crier and my, my local. My area has an event called Queer Utopia, and um, it's gonna happen tomorrow night, like all, so many of my loves are gonna be there.
I'm going to be like, crying out of happiness. Just to like, see them. And it just, it happens so much, that, it's like, I used to feel embarrassed by it. But it's like, no, it's like, it's actually really overwhelming. Yeah. And like, yeah, so just have this experience that like no one could have ever prepared me for and I never would have thought was possible growing up so.
Nicole: Yeah, I'm so thankful to have you here to be an example of another narrative that, that needs space to be, you know, held and celebrated and, and shine a light on it. You know,
Ren: Yeah. Thank you.
Nicole: And one last question for the research before we go towards our closing question, and that is, what do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy?
Ren: Well, I would like everyone to know Everything that has already been said, um, but yeah, whoever they've already met who said that they were, they were a relationship anarchists might not be right, right. Um, that is the one thing that I've come to a lot where. People becoming so averse to wanting to talk because of a bad experience they had with a person who identifies with relationship anarchy.
So that would be like, honestly, like, kind of high up there. Just because it feels sad that like that can be such a barrier to people exploring something that has such, uh, lots of different ways that people do things and they can write their own story. And yeah, so I think I'll keep it at that.
Nicole: Yeah. Such a great response.
I think. Yeah. It's hard because it's. It's the result of being a minority culture, right? You know, we don't look at monogamy and the high rates of infidelity up here in the fifties, some research saying 70 percent and we don't look at that and go, Oh, I would never do that. Cause I saw this person cheat on blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, because relationship anarchy is something new.
That might be the only example of the person they've ever met. Then they, you know, Judge the entire philosophy, which has deep roots in anarchy, you know, way beyond this practice. And so I think that's such a good invitation for people to learn more about the philosophy rather than the, you know, fallibility of our humanness.
That we all have and I've made those mistakes. I'm sure you have in the learning process, right? I don't even know the ones I'm making right now that I'll look back on and be like, damn, you know, so we're all failing in that, but the philosophical ideas maybe can exist, you know, slightly above our, uh, difficulties and bringing this into the reality and praxis.
Ren: Yeah. I love the way that you synthesize things.
Nicole: Oh, thank you. Thank you. If my hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt in psychology can give me anything, it's a damn good podcast.
Ren: That's great. Well, you know, silver linings or whatever.
Nicole: Exactly. Exactly. Hey, I love my life. I love my life. It's good. Well, I want to hold a little bit of space too before we go to our closing question.
You know, we can take that deep breath. I just want to check in to see if there's anything else you had on your heart that you want to share to the listeners. Otherwise, I can guide us towards a closing question.
Ren: I feel like we covered, you know, we covered a lot.
Nicole: Yeah, we did.
Ren: So yeah, I don't have anything like pressing that stands out to me.
I think that we established, you know, the fact that we Could go for hours. Yeah. So yeah, I just, you know, really value the way that you're using your platform and the intentionality behind your questions and yeah, just like, yeah, your creation of the space.
Nicole: Yeah, I really appreciate that. Had so many great interviews for my dissertation, and I knew that I wanted to be able to pull them out into the world because they were changing me.
Right. This conversation that we just had, it, it changes me as much as I change you. Yeah. And then, you know, I, I wanted to bring those out, but was, as you might understand, locked within an IRB and other sorts of other formalities. So it is a joy to be able to have listeners like you come on the podcast and help shape me and the whole community.
Ren: I love that the bringing it back to the ways that we inherently impact each other. This is the inherent truth, we're all changed by each other. So I feel like that is very, very central to the practice of relationship anarchy and something that I would like to, you know, hold on to. Mm hmm. Beautiful. Well, if it feels good to you, I'll guide us towards our closing question.
Nicole: So, and the one question that I ask each guest is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Ren: Just because of the state of things right now in the No, I wish that people knew it was normal, that people care a lot as possible. Um, if we can recognize that maybe some of the insecurities that we have are shared by others.
Nicole: Yeah. And like you said, that people care, right. And that's just bringing me back to this through line, you know, or this, this continual thread I've been hearing through our conversation, right. Yeah. Love. What does it mean to hold our impact on other people, right? And the ways that we are all in relationship in our community.
And what does it mean to love with that intentionality of holding how we impact others?
Ren: Yeah. Thank, thank you for that reflection.
Nicole: Of course. Of course. Well, Ren, it has been such a pleasure to chat with you today. Thank you for joining me and all the listeners.
Ren: Yeah. Thank you so much.
Nicole: Where do you want to plug? I know you mentioned a podcast, uh, where can guests find that if they want to learn more about your work?
Ren: So, we're on Instagram. Mm hmm. It's the Secret Third Thing podcast. Uh, the episodes that we have available, there's like five of them, should be available on all listening platforms. Uh, I have a very sparsely used personal Instagram that's, uh, Queer Contemplations.
And I've, like, written some stuff. And, yeah, it's very casual. We really work on crip time, which is just, like, very slow. Not a lot of urgency. But that's the platform that, uh, those are the platforms that I will plug that are where you can find stuff for me.
Nicole: Great. I'll have all of that linked below and I want to thank you for joining us and for shining your bright light in the world.
Ren: You too. Thank you so much.
Nicole: If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast. And head on over to ModernAnarchyPodcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
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