Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, nicole. On today's episode, we have sex educator, Tristan Taormino. Join us for a conversation about the queer sexual revolution. Together we talk about bottoming at age 25 compared to age 52, transformative soul merging sex, and when a magnet hits you with timeless wisdom. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy.
I am so delighted to have all of you with me. Pleasure activists from around the world tuning in for another episode each Wednesday. My name is Nicole. I am a sex and relationship psychotherapist with training in psychedelic integration therapy, and I am also the founder of The Pleasure Practice, supporting individuals in crafting expansive sex lives and intimate relationships.
Dear listener, It is such an honor to share this episode with you, to be able to have a dialogue, have a conversation with Tristan, someone who has been in this community, a part of this movement for way longer than me, who has seen more than I have seen. I can't even tell you, dear listener, the amount of times that I've been in therapy with you, with my therapist, and just been sobbing.
confused, just longing to have someone who had lived this life longer than me, an example of what is possible, an example of what is to come in the years as I live into my pleasure, radical exploration, and that pain point and that suffering is why I have so much joy in sharing this episode with you.
Dear listener, I hope you feel just as validated as I did. in having this conversation and all of the conversations that are on this podcast, right? It's a reminder that there are so many pleasure activists around the world who are making ripples of change. You are one of those, I am one of those, Tristan is one of those, and together we are bringing the revolution.
Y'all. The pleasure revolution. And that revolution is made up of people who feel the beauty of their embodiment, who feel free to dance in the pleasure of their body. And dear listener, I hope you are dancing. I hope you are living your most beautiful life and stepping deeper and deeper into your pleasure, which is filled with both the days of the light and the dark, but being more and more present with all that is.
I continue to come back to two words as I'm moving through this chapter of my life, and I'll share them with you. Play and presence. How can I be more present? Where can I find more opportunities to play? And holding that intention as I move through the different waves of change that is always happening as human beings.
Heh heh. All right, dear listener, if you are ready to liberate your pleasure, you can find out my offerings and resources at modernanarchypodcast. com. And I want to say the biggest thank you and so much gratitude for all of my Patreon supporters. You are supporting the long term sustainability of the podcast, keeping this content free and accessible to all people.
So thank you. If you want to join the community, learn more about my research and my personal exploration, then you can head on over to patreon. com slash modernanarchypodcast, which is also linked in the show notes below. And with that, dear listener, please know that I am sending you all my love, and I Let's tune in to today's episode.
So then the first question I like to ask each guest is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Tristan: I would say my name is Tristan Taromino and I'm a writer, a sex educator podcaster, a media maker, uh, an LGBTQIA plus health consultant, a speaker and a teacher. I wear a lot of hats.
Nicole: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. And I'm really excited to have you on the podcast today.
So thank you for joining us. Thanks. Yeah. So your personal sexual revolution, where does that start, Tristan? Where does it begin? Take us through the journey. I know we've got an hour. Let's go drop us in.
Tristan: Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny because people used to ask me this question all the time, which is like, how did you get to be you?
And I was like, I don't know, like, I grew up in a very, like, ordinary lower middle class family and I had no sex education growing up and no sort of sex positive role models and so I don't know. And then when I was writing my memoir and, like, piecing together all these different stories, I just, I could suddenly see the long view and thought, oh, I couldn't not be me with all of this.
Yeah. Well, my first memory of masturbating is actually when I was quite young. I was five years old. I remember how old I was because I used to go to a specific babysitter in that year. I moved around a lot. And so for that year, my mom was a single mom. She was working. I went to this particular babysitter's house.
We had nap time and, uh, I really couldn't, I was super high strung. I couldn't like fall asleep on command. And I had touched myself before and sort of played with my vulva. But I didn't do it in a really deliberate way. And then suddenly I was doing it in a very deliberate way. And all of a sudden I had an orgasm and I was like, wait, what is this?
And I was kind of like out of breath and fell asleep. And I thought, Oh, this, this is a trick that I can use to fall asleep. Like my tiny little brain didn't really. You know, put it all together. Sure. So, I feel like for a lot of people, especially those assigned female at birth, we are not, you know, encouraged to masturbate.
No one talks about masturbating. We don't have the same sort of cultural nap narrative that people assigned male do, which is that Masturbation is a rite of passage. It's a cultural touchstone. People can talk about it. People can joke about it. It can be in movies. And we just don't have that for girls and non binary folks with vulvas.
So, I want to say that not only did I find my own self pleasure very early. I also was never shamed for it. So I did once, I remember we were at my mom's friend's house, this gay couple, um, Jean and George, and they were cooking us dinner and I was in the living room and I just started masturbating. And she came in and, which is like a kid thing to do, you know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she came in and she was like, Hey, um, so we're at someone's house and that's something you do in private. Like, let me take you into a bedroom. I remember her specifically taking me into a bedroom and closing the door.
Nicole: Yeah.
Tristan: And to me, you know, knowing that people have had other experiences.
That, that's crucial to have someone not shame you about not just masturbation, but like your sexuality, your desire is a big deal that imprints pretty early on and, and, and kind of wires you from the beginning. So from the beginning, I didn't feel like. I had shame or anxiety about sex, which is really, um, unique in, in the culture of the United States.
I did a lot of fooling around and a lot of sexual exploration as a kid and into my teen years. Mostly it felt like fun, but I definitely also felt like I don't know that I've like unlocked all there is to unlock about this. And in college, I came out as bisexual. I had my first serious girlfriend, right?
I slept with some women, but then I had a very serious girlfriend and she was like a sex positive role model. She was like, anything's on the table. No judgment. What do you want to do? BDSM, porn, King. Like this, like that. You want to try this. Oh, you've never done this before. We can do this. Try this. And it was just like, all of a sudden my whole world just Opened up immensely.
I was like, Whoa, you know, and I, I credit her and she, we're still in touch and she still laughs about it because I was like, this is the person who made me queer and, and this person made me kinky. And, you know, and she's like, well, you, you kind of took to it like a fish to water. Um, and I think one of the things that she taught me besides the no judgment and the no shame was really to be curious about sex.
Yeah. And try new things. Mm hmm. You know, and, and so for me, being queer and having a sexual revolution are inextricably linked. Of course. They're intertwined. They happen kind of at the same time, which happens for a lot of people. And queer sex can be so many different things. And so it's like, all bets are off.
All of a sudden, everything's, you Possibly erotic. Everything's possibly sexual. Everything can be pleasurable. Right there. It's like you're ditching these heteronormative scripts and you're co creating your sex life as you go.
That was the big kind of breakthrough for me and, and just remaining, you know, Curious about sex, and open to trying new things, and asking my partner, like, what are their desires, and what are their fantasies, and, you know, I really came into my own tank identity in the, in the late 90s.
So, so college was the, um, early 90s. Late 90s, I came into kink. Again, I had several really good partners who were older, more experienced, show me the ropes, teach me stuff. I came into the scene identifying as a submissive and a bottom. Um, then. Years later, I sort of discovered my inner dominant, and I really was a dominant for about 15 years exclusively.
Cool. And then I thought, oh, you know, I could switch for the right person or the right set of circumstances, so I consider myself kind of like a dominant leaning switch. And really only in the past year have I gotten deeper back into Bottoming and submission, um, and power dynamics and. It's like totally different because it's not what it was.
It's it's right. It's like 20 more years experience So it's like it's feels like it's brand new in a lot of ways
Nicole: how exciting how exciting? Yeah. Thank you for sharing a little bit about your background Right to clue you in a little bit of mine. I came from a purity culture background, right? So any masturbation during childhood teenage years high school all of that, you know You So sinful, right?
Any touching, any pleasure meant that I was, you know, needing to pray to God and do the whole thing. So I am jealous and envious of your journey, but hey, I got here all the same. You know what I mean? We're all here the same. We all made it. We all made it through. Yeah, totally. Totally. And I, I just think about that.
Um, that first girlfriend that you had that really like opened it up and I know you took to fish to water, but like, Oh, like what a psychedelic experience, right? Just like opening up all of your worlds. The reality is shifting. Everything is changing. And the ways that really changed her whole life. Truly.
Right. Yeah.
Tristan: Yeah. And I would say very unexpectedly in my fifties, Yeah. Post menopausal, I had another big sexual awakening.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Tristan: So, which I didn't, You know, you, I guess you think of a sexual revolution as this, like, thing that happens in your formative years.
Nicole: Sure.
Tristan: So I didn't know that I was, like, due for another revolution. Thank you, universe!!
Nicole: And hopefully you'll have more, right? Yeah, what came up for you?
Tristan: You know, I think that There was a period in my life in my 40s where I was on antidepressants, I'm still on antidepressants, I was living with chronic pain, I was a workaholic, I didn't have any life work balance, and I felt like my sexuality kind of died, and I really felt broken, and I felt lost, and I felt Really conflicted because my whole job, my whole life, my whole public identity had to do with sex, and I wasn't having, not only just not having sex, like, I wasn't having desire.
I just wasn't. Like, I had no, no libido, no sex drive, whatever people want to call it. And, and this also coincided with going into menopause, so I also had, uh, I had surgically induced menopause. And, you know, I basically went into surgery for endometriosis. I woke up and I had only one ovary and it was a non working ovary.
So I suddenly like was just vaulted into menopause. There was no perimenopause, right? There was no like buildup or warm up. It was like you wake up and you're there. And so Yeah, and at the time they thought maybe my other ovary was working, so they were like we're not going to put you on hormones, even though I was telling them I was having these insane menopausal symptoms, I had to wait six months and then really advocate for myself to get on hormone therapy, but still at that point, Like, my sex drive and desire had sort of, like, left the building.
It was like I could not reach it in really, like, any form. I feel like a couple things happened. One is that I prioritized a sexual relationship with myself. Love that. My first sexual relationship was with myself.
Right.
And I sort, so it's like sort of like going back to the very beginning, right? And saying, okay, let me rediscover like who I am in this body that's changed a lot.
This life I've lived, all the things I know, all the things I've done. And then I met a partner who sort of cracked me open sexually when I felt like that part of my life might be over. And for a while, I think that I. kind of attributed it to this one person. Right. Yeah. And then is that relationship, which was very tumultuous and was very off and on and off and on.
And I've never had like, I've never had a relationship that I've renegotiated so much where there was a lack of alignment.
Nicole: Yeah.
Tristan: So I met this new partner and it was the first time I felt like I was Having sex with my equal. We have roughly the same amount of experience. We've been queer for a very long time.
We've been kinky for a very long time. We've been polyamorous for a very long time. And suddenly it was like, oh, I'm not in this position. I feel like there were a lot of years where I was in a place where I was often Facilitating other people's sexual growth and journey.
Nicole: Welcome to my life. You might understand where I'm at right now.
Tristan: Okay. So, so it was like, I, you know, I have the ability to create and hold space for people. And when people get with me, they're like, Oh, wait, you're a nonjudgmental sex positive. Like, let's just try all of it. Let's consent. And then let's go. Right? And so that often opens things up for people and I feel like I've done that at an individual level.
I've also done that at a community level. I've created events where people can explore their sexuality in new ways, explore their edges, all those things. And for years, I kind of thought, when is that going to happen for me? Like, when is someone going to create in home space For me to do that and I finally found like I feel like I found that person.
Nicole: Mm hmm,
Tristan: and it's It's so exciting. I'm losing my mind.
Nicole: Yeah. Beautiful.
Tristan: I'm like doing new things. I'm finding things I haven't done in a while and coming at them differently. You know, I didn't know that there was like a lot to learn. I know a lot and I've done a lot, but apparently there is still more to learn.
There is still more to experience. There's more to uncover. There's more to discover about my own sexuality, which has just been really enlightening and really exciting. Unexpected. I'm 52 years old. Like I said, I've been in menopause for over 10 years and I sometimes don't recognize the sexual person I am right now because she's fierce and fearless and fully engaged.
Nicole: Hell yeah, beautiful. And the space we need for this narrative is so big, right? Like there's just not enough narratives of this in general, right? So I'm so appreciative to be able to have you in the space and to just claim that as you just did with the embodiment and the knowing of your power in that.
Like, great. We need that in the world. So thank you. And I'm just thinking about the intimacy of that, right? To be met on your level. Because I think Part of my journey is this deep fear of the hedonic treadmill, right? Like there's ways in which when I, coming from purity culture and such levels of repression, anything sexual was so tantalizing, right?
Because it was so the forbidding cookie in the jar that I can't touch. And now that I've opened up for the jar and now that I've written papers on the jar and had so many conversations on the cookies, you know, and tried many different flavors. I'm like, Oh dear God, it's not as tantalizing as it once.
was, but my hope is that, like, the intimacy of meeting people in these various spaces, you know, is what really hits that, um, spark, or at least it has been for me, but I'd love to get some of your perspective on this fear of the hedonic treadmill that I'm running on. You know,
Tristan: it's funny because we love some taboo with our sex.
Totally. I, I think that that's super, super common. It's one of the reasons people love anal sex, which, you know, I've been talking about for 25 years. Is that it's taboo, that it's like, we're not supposed to do it, right? Or, like, well behaved and respectable people are not supposed to do that. So, we like an edge, we like a little danger, we like a little taboo with our sex.
It's part of what keeps it hot for us, right? And I agree that whenever I've been told I can't do something or I've been restricted in any way or I've agreed to a restriction with a partner, I have then hotly fantasized about the thing I, I can't do. Um, I have gone into my brain in like a whirlwind. And then when that agreement changed, I was like, Oh my God, now I can have all the blank I want.
And I started to have it and I was like, oh, this isn't as, um, hot as my guess about it were. Totally. Actually, I really built it up and it was so charged. And then when you get in it, you're like, yeah, I mean, uh huh. Sure, but take it or leave it. Um, so, so the tub, when the tub was lifted, it suddenly becomes, yeah, everything's kind of like, Okay.
Yeah. But I, I feel like what keeps the edge for me is going deeper. Yeah. As a bottom at age 25, I'm a different bottom at age 52. Sure. And I can actually go deeper into that space, Be more mindful when I'm in that space, notice more, process more. It's like I'm deeper into it. And so it still feels exciting.
It still feels like, Oh, I didn't see that coming.
I didn't know my reaction. That was going to be my reaction. Going deeper into stuff, having lived all this life keeps it really fresh. And I also think there's a point at which, you know, we have these fantasies, and certainly I've made a lot of my fantasies come true, but then there's these, like, second layer down of the fantasy, they're darker, more twisted, they're definitely more taboo, and you get to a certain point in your life where you're like, you know what, this is me, and if this is not for you, then we're not for each other, you know, this is not a good fit, Like, I have no qualms about just being like, you know what?
I don't think you're into this. You know, like, we're not a good fit. Right. And so being able to just sort of let it all out and say, these are the things. These, this is what I'm interested in. I've done some of them. I want to do them again. I want to do them with a different person, whatever it is. But kind of like not giving a shit about what the other person might say, not feeling like intense anxiety about someone judging you or someone rejecting you or, but just being like, here it is, folks.
You know, you either want to play in, in the sub basement with me or you don't,
Nicole: you're lucky if you get to play in my basement.
Tristan: So I also feel like just a sense of life is too short. I'm not keeping this in anymore. I'm going to go there. I'm going to go there. Exactly. How I want to go there. Cause I may have tried to go there.
Superficially, but now I really want to like do it and I want to get, you know, into these desires and I want a partner who is like, Oh, I'm totally game for that.
Right?
Nicole: Yeah. Let's go. Yeah. As you were talking, I was thinking about psychedelic therapy and my work with that. And just in terms of, you know, those first couple of psychedelic experiences you have are so exciting.
You've never done this before. Wow. This world. But But as you get more comfortable in it, right, the ability to go deeper and surrender more because you kind of know the layout of the land is something that grows through time and doesn't have that same like, Oh my God, this is the first time doing this.
But that depth, like you're saying, of being able to go into even further parts of the psyche, I think has a lot of parallels here.
Tristan: Well, and I, I don't even, I don't think you know about this, know this about me, but I've had major depression since I was five years old. I've done a shit ton of modalities, I've done talk therapy for 25 years, I've been on various cocktails and medication, and in the past three years, I began doing ketamine therapy.
Nicole: Cool, yeah, that's what I do.
Tristan: Yeah. Wow.
Nicole: Places. Right. It takes you places.
Tristan: It was life changing.
Nicole: Yeah.
Tristan: It was life changing. I had done acid once in 1993 and had a really bad trip and I've never done anything with genetics. Sure. And I'm just not a big drug person. You know, I'm like a 2. 5 milligram THC like edible person.
That's me. Yeah. So, so yeah, my first experience with ketamine and again, not doing recreational ketamine, Yeah. In the IV, in your, in your arm, a pretty fucking high dose. Yes. It was like mind blowing, but also I feel like My first treatment versus my tenth treatment. Right. By ten, you can, you notice more, you see other things, you, I sometimes have auditory hallucinations, so I hear other things.
You're not so, sort of, in awe. You still are in awe, always in awe. But, But the awe is not overriding your ability to then like actually look around and be like,
so I had that experience like so much being able to just go way, way deeper into it. And it changed me like permanently. I didn't feel like it changed me. Like I came out of it, think my first trip, I remember saying to someone saying to a friend, like, I don't want to say, like, I understand everything about the world, but I understand everything about the world. Yes. I understand why people do drugs, like, I understand why all my friends are on mushrooms, like, I get it now. Oh, I get it.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yes. So, so incredibly powerful and I'm glad you had access to those medicines or in those drugs. So life changing, like you said. And so then like seeing the parallels there between that, right. And the, and the bottoming work of like, you're able to notice more. It's not as, you know, glimmering and shiny, but you're able to go so much deeper into that.
So I think that. In, in, in just in general, the surrender that it requires to let go to the medicine, right? Like we're talking about trusting that relationship and all that. Yeah. I'm feeling like I'm going in.
Tristan: I mean, that was one of the first things that, uh, the practitioner who I saw said, he said, go in with curiosity, right?
Not fear. Right. And through all of my treatments that I've had, I've never felt fear within a trip ever. And that's. It's not a real world experience for me, right? We have fears, both reasonable and unreasonable and man made and self made all the time. And so I actually got to experience a space with no fear.
It was incredibly liberating. My God.
Nicole: Mhmm. Yeah, the power of set and setting, right? And I think, again, directly transfers over to playing, right? Who, what's your set? What's your setting? Where are you going into? Do you feel safe in the space? Right? So.
Tristan: And then when you do have all those ingredients. , right.
When you feel safe and you feel trusted and you trust
Nicole: Mm-Hmm. ,
Tristan: the sky's the limit, right? Yeah. It's like the tape in your head, which tells you all these stupid things just shuts off.
Nicole: Mm-Hmm. .
Tristan: And you're fully present
Nicole: Exactly.
Tristan: For whatever's coming your way.
Nicole: Yeah. Right. And so now you see how I'm sitting between these things going, wow, we got to talk about those people. These crossovers are just like right in front of me right here. Yeah. So powerful. And I'm curious where non monogamy comes into your journey here along this path. Cause I feel like that's an important piece of the story.
Tristan: Yes. So the first, you know, I actually say the first nominogamous relationship I was in was at the same time that I also had my first orgasm, which is coincidentally also the same time I saw my first butch dyke.
So it's like this five year old Tristan had a lot to absorb, like, within, you know, you know, less than a year in my life. Yeah. I mean that because I liked two boys and I didn't feel like I had to pick one of them. Good. I like two boys at the babysitter and I was, you know, flirty and sexual and handheld, like not sexual, but exploring and handholding and everything.
Uh, and I didn't feel like I had to choose between the two of them. And it was very clear to me that like, they were different. And so they fulfilled sort of like different needs and we had like different dynamic and all that stuff. My first non monogamous relationship was in college with that first girlfriend when she graduated college and moved to the West coast.
And I was still in college. Sure. Yeah. Just fucked it up. Didn't know what the, just God, what am I continue to continue to practice it and fuck it up. And, um, You know, people make assumptions about me because I wrote the book. I wrote a book on open relationships, but trust me, I, you know, I, I often don't take my own advice.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Don't we all?
Tristan: At, at some point, I decided to take my own advice and things changed. Hmm. So for the first time, I think that I was probably 45 before I had a relationship that was truly not on the relationship escalator.
Nicole: Sure, true.
Tristan: Wow. Truly. Moment to moment. What are we doing? No future casting, no forecasting.
Right? What's going on right now? What's going on right now? What's going on right now? Right. And so that feels really liberating and freeing, right? To just be in it and say, we don't know what this is, or we're calling it this, but that's, that's like an outline for what we're building and what we're making.
I'm involved now with a relationship anarchist. And up until now, I've really practiced hierarchical Polly, and it's really fascinating to see how she practices poly, and the differences, and the ways in which she interacts with her partners, and I, I'm like digging it. But also, I'm learning some stuff.
Nicole: Did I tell you I did my dissertation on relationship anarchy?
Tristan: No, no!
Nicole: First, first study, here we go!
Tristan: Oh my god, I did not know that.
Nicole: Yeah.
Tristan: So I think, so I, you know, I know it all in theory. I understand the theory and I've read all the books obviously, but I'm now like witnessing it up close and how different it is and how transformative it can be when everyone gets to put what they need and want on the table and you don't just show up to a relationship and say, Hey, I can't do these five things.
Or I've agreed that there will be no blank with anyone but my primary. Right.
Right, right, right. Yeah, I talk about it as like the uh, white canvas, right? How beautiful. This is not a paint by numbers. How beautiful and how scary, right? At the same time, that existential freedom of like, What is this? Where are we going?
What are we building? Right. But I think it's just so interesting because I'm younger than you. Right. And I, I walk on the shoulders of giants like you, other people who kind of laid out this land of normalizing this to a degree where like, yeah, I have the, um, relationship escalator book, right? This isn't my dissertation, all these other things where I'm just like sifting the layout, you know?
And so I'm starting here in a very different spot than you. Right. So I think there's so much
more. Like there's more community, there's more dialogue, there are more options. Yeah, there's more language, you know, language especially, you know, people, I know there's like a whole, there's a kind of anti, you know, label.
Movement. You know, there are people who are like, I don't wanna label myself and that word doesn't fit me. And so, but to me, when we have language to describe our orientations, our practices, our values, it really helps. It really helps people begin to see that they're not alone, that there's people around them doing these same things, who have these same wants, and these same relationship styles.
Not same, but similar. And I think that's really important. And like, that's the world that, you know, I want to live in.
Nicole: Right.
Tristan: Right. That's the world that, you know, I imagined when I was 20. I hope we have way more options.
Nicole: And I'm, I definitely use labels in my practice. I think it's for me, I find it to be political, right?
Because there is a relationship anarchy tendency and everyone gets to do what they want. Right. But, uh, to just call everybody friends, right. Um, or, you know, Pals or whatever. But I think it's also political when someone asks me about something, I'm like, Oh yeah, I have partners or, you know, if I just say friends, they can maybe presume I'm single or whatever.
So I really like to kind of lean into that political nature. And then usually people ask, Oh, like what, what do you mean? And I'm like, Oh, well now we can, how long do you got, you know? Yeah. Now I have partners that I don't have sex with or other things. And now we've opened up the dialogue, you know, where if I say friends, then they're like, Oh, cool, you're single.
Right. And it kind of shuts it down. So I like to use labels in just a little bit, you know, just a ball of men. And at the end of the day, it is true that like, you know, my male person isn't my friend or lover. Right. And so I do think at some point we do have labels in society that are helpful. Full to kind of differentiate these different things, but everyone practices it in different ways.
And the importance of that and the meaning making of all that is really something to respect. Of course. Absolutely. But I like them personally. You know?
Tristan: Well, I also think that for me, I have friendships that are incredibly deep, intimate, Mm-Hmm. , um, more intimate than partnered relationships I've had. More committed, more important, uh, longer.
And I feel like we don't have a really broad view around friendship. You know, people are often saying things like, We're just friends. And it's like, oh, no, no, no. This is my ride or die person. And so when I say friend and you then prioritize other people in my life above them, that's normativity, right?
Those are social norms about who's supposed to be the most important and who's supposed to be the priority. And I just don't subscribe to that, right? And so I feel like friend, as we use it, Now is a little one dimensional to describe some of the relationships I have that are deeply intimate, but not sexual, right?
Nicole: Of course. And my heart breaks just thinking about the psychology of all of this too, because, you know, the frame of singleness, like, oh, I'm single. I'm single. I'm saying, what do you mean? You have a multitude of relationships, or I hope you do, I hope you do, I hope you have a community, right, but, but even to put that frame and language on yourself and knowing how important language is for a concept of self and moving through the world, like, God, like, that just puts you in this constant state of deficit.
Tristan: Well, and, and quite frankly, single in our culture. Built into single in our culture is don't want to be right. I mean, that is that is the unimplied part of single, which is if you're single, you do not want to be single. You're single and looking. You're single and trying to meet the one. I mean, you're no one's just single.
Nicole: Of course not.
Tristan: Like, we want to be in a monogamous relationship. Like, that's what society sort of shoves down our throats. So, it was really interesting because when I was writing my book on open relationships, I actually coined the term solo poly. Oh, cool. It's really funny because, like, I love it when 20 something people are, like, to tell me, you know, this is what the definition, or this is the origin of solo poly.
And I'm like, Oh, um, tell me more. Yeah, I've never heard of that. Okay, and the reason I picked solo poly is because polyamorous people who have multiple partners but don't want a primary relationship are, would often be labeled single. And that, I felt like it lacked agency, I felt like it didn't speak to their polyamorous orientation.
That's not working because single already is loaded with polyamorous people. A bunch of that cultural baggage. Right. And Solo felt Like, there was a lot more agency, a lot more power, a lot more self determination.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. And so then in my research, I get a lot of people who are relationship anarchists, solo poly and see those together and then people, and then, you know, I haven't talked to anybody yet, but monogamous people will practice relationship anarchy and have that too.
So it seems like more of an umbrella, but a lot of people are solo poly and RA. I think that's a really common combo.
Tristan: Mm hmm. Because there's a sense of autonomy and independence, and I think solo poly people, when you don't have a primary and you don't want a primary, then you really are kind of crafting these relationships.
With people and, and you know what I mean? You're not saying this is my primary, this is my secondary, right? You're, you're really are being like, this is this person, this is this person, this is this person.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Absolutely. And what I find fascinating is, you know, from the world of psychology, uh, and the feminist psychology that I trained under, it all talks about the ways that our concept of self is formed by relationships.
By relationships. When I think about sexuality, I'm like, ooh, concept of self formed by relationships, right? And I've, I've expanded this out to the realities that in our modern day and age, when you're watching porn, you're seeing that through the lens of a director and the people that that's a relationship, right?
So we're all shaped by all of these relationships, but I'm curious to you, you know, what benefits have you found or joys have you found by having access to sex with multiple people in terms of your identity and selfhood.
Tristan: Yeah, there's so many bonuses to it. I think, I think what's interesting and people sometimes misunderstand about non monogamy is that the idea that like you have agreed with yourself or with other people that you can have desire and love for multiple people doesn't mean like, I fuck everyone I desire.
Nicole: Yeah.
Tristan: Right. Like that would just be, I would, I, I, I, how could I work? Right. Um, so there's something about the freedom to just desire the freedom to just say, Oh, you That waiter's really hot. Yeah or later in bed fantasize about what that waiter, if we brought that waiter home, like what might happen right now, the waiter is not involved.
It's a projection. It's a fantasy. But the idea that I could say that to someone and they wouldn't go like, no, you only have to have desire for me. You only find me attractive. I'm your one and only. Right. So the, just the, just the freedom to, to be real, be real and say, I have desire for a lot of different people.
Right. And so you don't even have to act on it, but it's like the shared value of like, we agree that this is possible and preferable actually. Right. So I think that's one of the things. And then I think also this sort of like learning and evolution of your sexual self, um, with each partner that you're with.
There are things, there are places you go, there are things you experience, there are dynamics that come up, stuff that you play with and kink, that could be new or different. So one of the things I say in my memoir about my very first serious girlfriend named Jen was that Jen was a breakthrough lover.
And a breakthrough lover to me is someone who you connect with them and you go places that you, maybe places you didn't even know existed, or places you knew were there and you were like, I have no interest in going there, but, but with this, this particular chemistry, this particular connection, this particular connection.
All of a sudden you're like in that land and you're like, Whoa, wait, how did I get here? And once you go through that door, you're forever changed. Yes. Right. And so ideally, This isn't always true, but ideally there's some element of breakthrough lover in everyone that we have sex with, right? There's something new to discover because, hey, this is a different person, right?
And we are playing with different dynamics. We have a different level of experience. We have different knowledge of each other. We have a different relationship, right? have a different relationship with everyone, then the sex is going to be different with everyone, right? So to me, just self discovery. And like learning and growing and evolving sexually.
You sort of automatically get outside your comfort zone when you sleep with different people because It's like, oh wait, I'm, I'm reset to back to the beginning. Like I don't, you know what I mean? Like I don't have the manual for this, so we're going to see where this goes. There's a lot of like learning from other people and when I think back just to lovers I've had, you know, there's, there's something there, there's something, some piece of something that contributed to kind of like where I am right now.
You know, I was the most uninhibited, that person. That person gave me permission to be, like, a greedy bottom.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Tristan: That person introduced me to any, you know, any kind of kink, right? Yeah. Um, that person introduced me to this kink that I didn't, you know, right? And, and now I, I love that kink, and I do it. So it's like, there's a piece in every experience, I think, that stays with you.
Mm hmm. Yeah. But also, you could just fuck people to fuck them, and I don't need you to have, like, a deep anything about it. Right. I, I also want to say that. Like, I'm not saying that every sexual experience I've had has had, like, a deep spiritual meaning. Sometimes it just felt really good, and sensual, and it was a good time, and then it was like, and goodbye.
It's just that I think the older you get, the more you're seeking out people you can have these deeper connections with. Right? So I feel like, I feel like I'm attracted to fewer people now, and it's not because I don't find people hot. I mean, there's hot people everywhere. Yeah. Right? But that emotional maturity.
Yeah, like there's this hotness that has to come with like communication skills and like their sense of self being quite solid and their skillset, right? So it's like, it's like, I'm not going to, when I'm 20, I'm like, you look good. Let's go. Right? And now I'm more like, I'm a little choosier. I'm a little bit more like, where's this going to take us?
What can we do here that's gonna like add to my sexual life, your sexual life, and sexuality? So I feel like I'm more inclined to just be like, you're cute, but I could also just Read about that.
Nicole: Right. Or use my vibrator and I'll be fine. Right. And which takes us all the way back to, you know, the beginning of that partner that you've been connecting with recently, right?
That intimacy of being met on your level, right? When that's not there, I don't, I can't, I can't be attracted to it. Like you said, I can look at them and be like, you're a beautiful human, but that actual erotic desire to connect and, and really to play with them. them, right? Like the question is, do I want to play with you?
You can have a beautiful body, but I want to play with your soul, right? Like I need to know where you're at, how you're going to giggle with me. And if that's not happening, I'm not interested, right?
Tristan: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I said this about this person in my life to a friend, I said, you know, there's good sex, there's great sex, and then there's like sex where your souls like temporarily merge and like see the divine, however you define the divine.
Um, and, uh, You know, there's not a lot hap There's not I'm not There haven't been a lot of experiences, like, the third thing. And I absolutely feel that with this person, and it's It's everything. It's everything. I don't know that I've had such a spiritual, soulful connection with any sexual partner I've had until now.
Nicole: Wow. That's beautiful. I'm so excited for you.
Tristan: Thank you. I'm giddy too.
Nicole: Isn't that cute? I love it.
Tristan: Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, so I'm a little bit, I'm, I'm, I'm bathing in the NRE, but, but also at the same time, it has a depth beyond traditional NRE as I've experienced it.
Nicole: Sure, sure, sure, sure. Yeah, I'm in the stages of it too, right?
Tristan: All, it's, everything's perfect. Pretty and rosy.
Nicole: And I've been trying to think about like, what's a harm reduction, pleasure enhancement way to look at NRE. You know, I'm thinking just go slow and slow. That's what we say with other drugs. Right. So probably the same sort of thing here, folks. Right. Low and slow.
Don't just collide the U Haul day one, right?
Tristan: But also like lean into it. I think the other thing about the relationship escalator, you know, the other side of it is. We have, you know, we just, we have this script and these milestones. You've been dating for this long, so now you're, for example, monogamous.
You've been dating for this long, why haven't you moved in together? You've been dating for this long, why are you not engaged? Why are you not married? Why do you not have kids, right? There's all these like, and, and truthfully, when you know, you know. And so it's like, we're on, this timeline that we've created for ourselves and that makes sense for us and that we're like fully invested in and everyone else can just like take their timeline and shove it up their ass, right?
It's like, I don't need you to tell me like what I'm actually feeling or the intensity of this. Uh, we're just, we're going to create this together and you guys can have your feelings about how fast or slow it's going, but they are irrelevant to me.
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And then that energy that you have, I would imagine, pours out into the other areas of your life, the other relationships that you have, right?
That joy, it's something that doesn't necessarily detract. Maybe it shifts where we devote the time and energy as things change and evolve, because that's complex. But the zest, that life force energy that you're feeling, yeah, gets shared amongst all the relationships.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, yeah, it feels like, it's like, I, I feel like in the past year I've had this, just a lot of things coincide, and, again, this is like, after I had two rounds of six cadmium treatment, so, I don't know if they're related, but, I feel like a lot of my relationships have really deepened, and I've found like, you know, friends who feel like they've been in my life forever, and also some relationships have, um, De escalated and been de prioritized, but once you have this sort of capacity, this overwhelming, intense capacity for love, it doesn't stay in a container with just one person.
Nicole: Right. Right. It brings a level of joy to you that you are then like radiating out to your other folks.
Tristan: Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Some of my favorite parts of it.
Nicole: I know. And I'm thinking to just, you know, of course, feminism is all about choice, right? Like the choice to live the life that you want to live, right? Monogamy, polyamory, relationship, anarchy, of course. And I think Part of the reality though is how feasible does that choice seem, right? I think it's important to talk about the historical context of women and, you know, beyond the relationship escalator that all the gender stereotypes of what you're supposed to be in terms of a mom and you raise the kids and you do this and you do that and that's what you do to be a good woman, right?
So there's lots of people that are still deconstructing that of like, oh, maybe I don't even want to have kids, right? So this world of being able to have multiple partners in your life, we have to realize that that's a choice, right? But how much of it is a choice when many women feel like it's selfish to have this level of pleasure in their life, right? I don't know how free that choice is until we get more examples like you, me, other people in this space that are saying, Hey, you can do this, right? So I'm curious if you want to speak a little bit to like the journey as a woman in this space.
Tristan: You know, it's a re it's a really good question.
I think we always have to acknowledge that there are constraints and the more marginalized multiple identities that you have, And certain sort of social locations, like the more constraints there are on your access to pleasure. Yeah. Right. So to just be like, you just need to have an orgasm girl or, you know, or you just need to be having great sex every day.
It dismisses entirely the reality of our lives, which is that we need to work because we need money to be able to support ourselves, to be able to support our kids. We need childcare and other kinds of community support around raising our children. We need healthcare and health insurance. We live in these oppressive systems that are not telling us To prioritize pleasure that are not giving us the tools to prioritize pleasure and that are often suppressing pleasure.
And we're getting these messages that, you know, work is the most important thing or whatever it is, right? Pleasure is not prioritized in our society. Right in a meaningful way going out and getting drunk. Sure. But I would argue that a lot of people are not experienced pleasure when they do that. Or just trying to take the edge off, um, lower their anxiety and they may be self medicating too, right? So, I don't know that everyone is, who drinks or does drugs is doing it for pure, a pleasure experience. So we have these constraints on us, and we have these narratives about women's sexuality, right, and about, about purity, about respectability, about sluts, and who's a slut, and what makes you a slut, um, and what makes you easy, and what, you know, all, all those things.
tropes are, are, we're swimming with those, right? And so it's hard to kind of like carve out this other thing for yourself in the midst of all this noise, right? All this noise telling us like, how we are supposed to be as women. And again, there's this, strange dysfunctional thing, which is like, you need to be a sort of chaste, modest mother of my children.
You're the mother of my children, right? Uh, which automatically means like, you're not sexual. I don't want to fuck you. You're the mother of my children, right? And also though, some kind of sex goddess, according to like cosmopolitan, right? Who can just like whip out tricks and tips and do any position and come in any way and like all the things that, right?
So it's this really dysfunctional, like a lot of mixed messaging that, you know, originates with horror and Madonna. And we're swimming in all of that and then we're trying to sort of find ourselves and what it means to be an autonomous sexual person with agency, with desire, how we then move in the world.
To share that desire with people when the messaging never stops, basically, right? The messaging never stops. And I think it's really, really difficult.
Mm hmm.
And I think we are not living in a sex positive society. Right? We are, we are living in a sex negative society. There are examples of that everywhere.
And so, just from that framework alone, our sexuality is being denigrated, devalued, deprioritized, all the things. It's not even considered a part of someone's health and well being. Even though we've got the data. I know. People have great sex lives and satisfying sex lives as defined by themselves. Their mental and physical health is always better.
Yeah, you know it, but we still put it on the shelf over here and say, oh, no, no, no, that's not part of the picture. Like, you know, how many calories are you eating a day or whatever these other bullshit standards are. So, because we haven't even talked about like, You know, fat shaming and fat phobia and bodies and how that also deeply constrains people's feeling desirable because they're giving a message about what bodies are desirable, what body is sexy.
They're like, that's not mine. And then also we're getting messages from partners who are like, Oh, I want you to be 22 and white and thin and blonde and have big boobs and you know, all this other stuff. Right. And it's like, that's not. So, amidst all of this, we're trying to sort of forge our own sexuality, and the forces are working against us.
Mm hmm. They're working against us. Absolutely. It's hard.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the orgasm is not the peak of all pinnacle sexual experiences, but goddamn, how are you supposed to orgasm in this world where, God forbid, my protection breaks and I get pregnant and in America, I can't get access to an abortion.
And if I do get pregnant and I want to have the child, it costs Thousands of dollars just to birth the baby in the building, let alone feed the baby. Literally, how are you supposed to, you know, like, how are you supposed to access pleasure in this society? You know, I mean, like you said, it's worse with the different levels of intersecting identities on this.
And so all of that is right here at the center of the problem of, like I'm saying, getting to this. We're talking about choices of how we build our romantic sexual worlds here, right? That other choice when we're weeding through all these different things seems impossible to me in some ways. And so I'm just so thankful for people like you who can speak to that, right?
Because I, I go through this and I'm like crying in therapy going like, fuck, like, I don't have any examples. I don't have any examples that I can look up to, I can see in a movie, in a rom com, and be like, okay, that's where I'm going. And again, if we go back to the field of psychology, just thinking about narratives and how much archetypes and narratives shape our lives without that sort of narrative, I don't know where I'm going, and that's scary.
Tristan: Yeah, absolutely. And that's why we do need role models, and for people who can be visible, Right. Whether it's visibly kinky, polyamorous, non monogamous, you know, visibly like body positive, all the things for folks who can do that, um, and have that have sort of a especially have the privilege to be able to do that.
For me, I feel like I, I have to like, I have to be open for all the people who cannot be open. And
that's because I have a tremendous amount of privilege as I walk in this world. But I want someone to be able to be like, Oh wait, someone has a life that looks like what I would want.
Nicole: Yeah.
Tristan: Which means possibility, right?
Which means hope, which means possibility, and which also disrupts. That we're all supposed to do this one thing.
Nicole: Right.
Tristan: Right. There have to be disruptors in our culture in all various realms.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Tristan: So that we can see the alternatives. Absolutely. We can see what else might be possible. Some of the most amazing thinkers and leaders and public intellectuals are people who are thinking about things in a different way.
Mm hmm. And that's why we're often drawn or I'm often drawn to them because they're really questioning the status quo. They're really challenging all kinds of norms and saying, I can imagine something different. Can you? You know, like Adrian Marie Brown, for example, right? Imagining these new worlds where we treat each other in specific ways, where we build community in specific ways, where we.
Prioritize certain practices and values that right now are not at the center. They're not just.
Nicole: Yeah, no. And yeah, someone going through the field of psychology, you would think, right? Like you'd think like, Hmm, the field of, yeah, you're already shaking your head. You know, the field of humanness, right? The field of humanness, the amount of times I've been judged, I've been very public about this platform.
A lot of times I've been judged and went home crying, right? Like I try to hold on to what you said of like, If, if anything, if anyone feels less shame in the space because of our conversation, because of this podcast, my whole life is worth it. Right. And I think that when we think about the political nature of this, right, in the field of psychology, one of the highest things that people feel shame about is sex.
So then we have to start thinking, okay, how much of our cognitive time and energy is going up here? Is this normal? Is this normal? Is this normal? Shit. That's a lot of time for a revolution. If we could. Deprioritize all that shame and let it go. What else would we be thinking about in our time?
Tristan: Well, and what kind of sex would we be having?
I mean, I think, you know, if I, if I've learned anything in 25 years of doing this and talking to like tens of thousands of people, it's that a lot of people are having sex. with no sense of who they are sexually, with little or no communication, with shame, anxiety, panic. And so, of course, these sexual exchanges or experiences or relationships are going to be unfulfilling,
Nicole: right?
Tristan: Because, you know, All of that is going on. We can't really connect. We can't connect with ourselves and what we want and how we feel in our bodies. And we certainly can't connect with another person.
Nicole: Yeah, because what we're talking about is access to play, right? Can you play in your body?
Tristan: That's another sort of, um, misunderstanding about kink, I think, which is that, you know, people immediately go to this, like, master slave, dungeon whipping, Hits my feet.
Dominatrix. I mean, there's, you know, I mean, it's basically the pop culture representations of kink, which are really one dimensional. Often they get it wrong. Also, like when the dominatrix enters the room and she's wearing a collar. That's not a thing! Just so you know, guys, people who wear collars are submissive.
Nicole: Yeah.
Tristan: By definition, a Dom who is walking into the world, walking into the room as a Dominant in that scene, does not wear a collar. Yeah. She may wear a collar in a different context, but she may be a Switch. But right now, she can't say hi, I'm your Dom, and be wearing a collar. Wrong. And we see it like a million times over.
So I think one of the things people really desperately, like, misunderstand about kink is how playful it is, and how it's this outlet for creativity and imagination and play, and it can be this, like, crucible for self discovery, but also just fun. You know what I mean? Like, I, I was recently, I'll tell you this, I was in a scene and it was a very long scene.
It was a two day scene, which is, uh, hard. It's hard to be in role. It, like, it was in role. We never broke out of role and I was starting to hit a wall, right? I was starting to hit a wall and thought, I may need to call this. You know what I mean? I may need to say it forward. I mean, this may need to end. And so there's this voice in my head that was like, Tristan, it's only like six more hours.
Like you can do it. Like just toughen up, like hang in there, like you'll be fine. And then another voice comes in and is like, wait, this is supposed to be fun. If you are no longer having fun, if you are no longer feeling pleasure, then you're not Then we're going to stop. And, and knowing also that the person I was scening with would never want me to like, just bomb through it.
You know what I mean? Like put my head down and try to get through it. It's like, I know that she would say, you did what? No, it's supposed to be fun. And if we're not having fun anymore, then call it, just call it.
Nicole: Right, right, exactly. Yeah, that's the point, right? It was also, I was like thinking about my times in rope though, where I've been like actively like, oh my god, how much longer, you know,
Tristan: like, I mean, if you're into like endurance or if you want, if you are eroticizing distress
physical distress or emotional distress, right, that you want to be in distress. Those are real desires, right? But that wasn't what the point I was like, I need out of this. Right. That we've created this thing and it's, there's some great things about it and there's not great things about it and I'm ready to be done with it.
Nicole: Yeah, exactly. And so being able to name that is the important piece there, right? Your freedom, the autonomy, the power, right? The consent, all of it. Yeah. I'm curious if you have any advice for a recovering perfectionist. Who still struggles to role play.
Tristan: Yeah. I mean, I am also a perfectionist. You know, I'm a type A personality.
Um, I like to do my best at everything. Of course. I like to win. Of course. I like to be at the top of my game. Yes. I like to excel. And I like everything to be perfect. And that, of course, if you are that person, If that's your personality type, that spills over to, I'm making cookies for a friend, I'm entertaining, I'm writing a book, I'm going to work, you know, it spills over into everything.
But, you know, I have this, I recently saw this magnet that said, Perfectionism is the highest form of self abuse. Oof. I mean, it's a magnet, people. Just like, hey, sometimes you read a meme and you're like, Oh, I felt that so deeply! I know it's such a meme, and we're just on Instagram, but man, that cut, that just cut right to the chase, and like, I feel that.
Okay, so it's a magnet, people, but I feel that. And if we can reframe this notion that perfectionism actually is doing harm to us, It's actually not good for us. It's not good for us. And it doesn't matter as much as we think it matters. Perfectionism can stop you from doing roleplay, but a lot of things. I think people are like, I don't want to say the wrong thing, or I don't know what to say, or I feel like I'm going to feel silly, or I'm going to like, burst into laughter.
You know what I mean? All of these things, like, I just want to say, like, yes. Yes, you're gonna feel awkward. Yes, you're gonna say something and burst into laughter. Yes, you're not gonna know what to say. Yeah, like just embrace all of that, right? Embrace all of that. Because also human interactions are awkward.
You know, when people like turn to me after something happens, like in a social situation, they're like, God, is that awkward? I just say, Yes! It was! Because like, people are awkward. People are awkward. Human beings are awkward. We're all awkward. If that just becomes normalized, that was awkward.
Nicole: Mm hmm.
Tristan: We don't have to be so, like, in our heads about it, you know?
Yeah. So, role playing is about, again, surrendering to the process. going all in that we are these roles and we are these people and we're doing this thing, right? And you have to invest in it. You can't sort of half heartedly go into it. It won't work. It won't play. You have to go all the way into it.
Certainly people who are into improv and theater have an edge.
Nicole: I know all my partners, Tristan, all my partners. And I, I'm, I minored in chemistry
Tristan: because, you know, if you get a theater kid with another theater kid, it's just like, Oh, let's, Oh, let's do this. It's too fast for me. I can't. Yeah. And it can be really fun.
But I think, no, I think if there's, Awkwardness or hesitation, I would actually try to incorporate that into the character. Okay. Yeah. Part of what role play is too, is like, you're merging parts of yourself, experiences, parts of other people, you know, iconographic sort of archetypes, right? You're like merging all that.
And so I say if the awkwardness is present and it's what's Sort of tripping you up then make the person in the role play awkward.
Nicole: Sure. Sure.
Tristan: And then that's part of it So you don't have to like dismiss it or you're like that's part of the play
Nicole: yeah
Tristan: And you don't know where the awkwardness is gonna go right because someone could Make you feel so comfortable that then you drop the awkwardness, right?
Some, or you could feel awkward the whole way through. Exactly. There still might be some fun to be had there. Uh, and, and awkwardness. Fun and awkwardness at the same time. So, yeah. And I think we just, we don't give ourselves permission to make mistakes. And, but the thing about role play is like, there are no.
Mistake. Yeah. Like, someone, you know, like I've done roleplay with people before and they've said later on, Oh, you know, I said that thing and that wasn't, that wasn't in keeping with the character or I contradicted myself before that. And I am literally like. What? You know, just like, didn't notice, wasn't, that was like a surface level thing, I was in, I was into it, and it holds, so it's like, I don't even remember that you said those two things and they contradict each other, I was just like, in it.
So, the other thing is, like, perfectionists notice shit that other people don't notice, right? And so there's, at some point you just have to, Let go of what your fears are, because I think it's most rewarding when you can really go for it. That's when I've had the most fun, when I can sink my teeth into the role, into a character, and into a particular scenario, and just go for it.
Nicole: Yeah.
Tristan: We just have to let ourselves be. Do that.
Nicole: Right.
Tristan: And also make it not perfect. You know?
Nicole: Yeah.
Tristan: Also, I think we learn a lot from role playing. I've always found that when a role play goes to a place where I don't expect it to go, where I didn't plan it to go, that often happens, right? You can have a certain plan, you can have a certain three act structure, and then it's, you know, Out the window.
Nicole: Sure.
Tristan: I've learned so much. The sort of debrief of a role play that hasn't gone exactly as planned. Mm-Hmm. or, or hasn't been as hot as you thought it would be, or the hasn't been what you expected it to be. Whatever it is. I just learned a lot about myself and about my partner and so in that case, I wanna say like there are no bad role plays, right.
Right. Because they're all gonna be learning experiences and, and you're gonna be able to. Take stuff from, that's the other thing is I, I love to be able to take stuff from them and say, you know what I loved about this role play? These four things.
Nicole: Sure.
Tristan: You know what I was just like, eh, these four things.
And then now all of a sudden, wow, information. Like you've just learned some shit about you and about your partner that's really valuable. And you've had the awareness to be able to sort of reflect on what you just did. And what worked and what didn't work, and what it may have opened up for you, and what it may have buttons it pushed for you, and you know, all those things.
That's like information. And that, to me, is Building trust and intimacy. Being able to say all of that. And being able to go there with someone and say, Okay, I'm going to surrender to this because you're going all in, I'm going all in, let's go all in together.
Nicole: You know? That's the intimacy piece of it, the trust to go there.
And I'll keep simmering on those words in my nervous system and try and open up my heart more to it.
Tristan: Yeah. Also, you know, I want to talk a little bit about trust. Yeah. For a second. Okay. Because we talk a lot about building trust with other people.
Nicole: Mm, yeah, yourself.
Tristan: But you have to trust yourself. Ooh, the hardest part.
Yeah, you have to trust yourself first and foremost. Trust yourself to know what you want. Trust yourself to be able to use your voice. Trust yourself to be able to listen to your gut, listen to your instincts, and know that your body knows, your body knows things. And sometimes we have to listen to the body, even when the brain is like, no, no, no, no, this will be fine.
So you gotta trust yourself, right? Before you can trust other people.
Nicole: Right, right.
Tristan: Now, there's all sorts of reasons we doubt ourselves, and many of them have to do with the messaging we get in society around sex and sexuality, and around what we should like, and what we shouldn't like, and should do, and shouldn't do, and, right?
There's all of that.
Nicole: Yeah.
Tristan: But being able to trust yourself means you can go in knowing, I've got this. Whatever happens, like, I've got this.
Nicole: Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think, you know, sometimes I, I say this a lot to my therapy clients, just, you know, like when you're in the thick of change, it's sometimes really hard to see how much you've grown.
Right? Like this is an improv space for me. I'm chatting with you right now. Granted, I do have final cut, cut. You know, if I say something I don't like, you know, but, but, but, but like, I've been doing this for a couple of years now. I got some, some level of improv going on with the stranger. Right. Um, and so I think it's hard at times to recognize the ways that we've all grown.
Right. And like the things I am able to do now are so much bigger. And then you, you still keep looking at the other end going like, damn, I want that, but to sit back and acknowledge that, like, Wow, there has been a lot of progress. And for me, it's really easy to tap into that like purity culture past. So, Oh my God, I don't know anything about sex.
Like, wow. You know, that's a really easy space to tap into because of my past. Right. And then that other side of the, like, Piece of meat, cum slut, object, super easy. Right? So it's like, but, Oh, there's a whole other world. There's a whole other world of, of roles to, for me, you know what I'm like, trying to step into them.
So I think there's a, and, and what a joyful journey, right? Like what a joyful journey to play and figure out these parts of ourselves and, and like you to have revolutions throughout the process that continue to surprise us in ways that we never could have imagined.
Tristan: Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. Well, I want to ask you two closing questions.
Okay. But I'll hold space first in case, you know, maybe there's something we didn't hit that you want to say to the listeners, otherwise I can guide us.
Tristan: Oh, I just want them to buy my book. Yeah. Cool. I just have to, I have to plug my book because it's my, you know, it's capitalism and I also have bills to pay.
Yeah. Um, and I have role plays to finance. Quite frankly. Exactly. Exactly. You know, so if you want to finance my role playing, so I can take time off to role play. So I might have to like get a specific setting for a role play. Um, uh, my book is called a part of the heart can't be eaten.
The title will be explained. You just got to read it and it's memoir. It covers From being born until I'm about in my early thirties and a lot happened and you can get it wherever you get books.
Nicole: Great, great. So thankful to have you in this space. Yeah. So then my first question I want to ask, you know, going back to your 20 year old self, is there any advice you would say to her?
Tristan: Yeah, one thing I would say is to prioritize. self pleasure. What you do alone is not separate from what you do with partners. And in fact, the more you explore yourself by yourself, which, you know, is a safe container, no expectations. The more you do that, actually, the better Partner you can be to people in sex because you have knowledge about what you like and your body and maybe what fantasies are going through your head and so I would say, yeah, masturbation and sex are not like two different things.
They're all in the same bucket.
Nicole: Sure. Yeah. Self exploration.
Tristan: Yeah.
Nicole: Totally. So important.
Tristan: Yeah. You know, I would say to my 20 year old self. You're not going to believe me, but it actually does get even better than this! I love that! Actually, I know it looks like you're having a really good time now, and you are.
Girl, I see you, and you are, and you're going to get to a place in life that you never dreamed was possible.
Nicole: Crazy. Oh, how exciting, right? Talk about changing narratives, by the way, right? Like, huge, huge. Yeah. All right. And my last closing question is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Tristan: God, I mean, I feel like, you know, I've spent my whole career trying to normalize a whole bunch of things. I'll go with this. I think it's entirely normal to fantasize. about things that are not only taboo, but may actually contradict the way that you treat other people in your real life, how you think about power, how you think about gender.
Like there are fantasies in which you're acting out values that are not your core value. And that often trips people off. They often think, why am I having this? Dark for lack of a just we don't have enough words to describe these things, but why am I having this dark fantasy? Why am I have it having this fantasy where someone overpowers another person?
Why am I having a fantasy where someone takes advantage of someone right? The thing is this is your fantasy life Right? And I, I really don't want people to censor their fantasy life. Because the space between having the thought and then doing the thing is so vast. Sometimes we only have the thought, we never want to do the thing.
Sometimes we have the thought and then we want to modify it slightly before we do the thing. Sometimes we thought, then we think. Right? But there's so many ways to go. But if you start censoring yourself at this place,
Nicole: Yeah.
Tristan: And thinking, I should not be having this fantasy, the should in your mind. You're, you're shutting off a piece of yourself that you should be curious about and not judge yourself about.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. Cause it's so values laden. I think I've tried to explain that to someone, right. It's like the value is there to never, you know, do this to anyone in any capacity, right? Which then suddenly very much so looks like the cookie jar situation, right? Like don't touch the cookies. And that's what makes it so exciting.
the fact that you do have such strong values that you would absolutely never in any context do this other than a fantasy consensual space, right? There we go. Okay. But like, I love that you have the values and the values are actually so strong that that's what's creating like. How exciting. Let's play with it in a safe space, right?
Yeah. It was such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thank you. I love talking to you. I feel like we could do it for hours. We could. We could. I'm watching and I'm like, ah, I gotta stop at some point. Yeah. Where would you want to plug? I know you plugged your book, but other spaces. How can people find you and connect with you?
Tristan: So the best social media for me is at Tristan Taramino, although I'm at Tristan Taramino on across all social media platforms, but Instagram is. where I'm most active and I do all my own posts. I answer all my own DMs. Um, and then my website. So if you're someone who's a professional who wants to learn about my workshops or my trainings or my books, uh, my website is TristanTaramino. com.
Nicole: Great. Thank you for coming on the podcast today.
Tristan: Thanks for having me.
Nicole: If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcasts. And head on over to ModernAnarchyPodcast. com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode.
I want to thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
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