Nicole: Welcome to Modern Anarchy, the podcast exploring sex, relationships, and liberation. I'm your host, nicole.
On today's episode, we have Sarah Caroline. Join us for a conversation exploring the practice of relationship anarchy. Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Modern Anarchy. I am so delighted to have all of you pleasure activists tuning in each Wednesday for a new episode of this show. And if you're new here, Hello, my name is Nicole.
I am a queer relationship anarchist and a sex and relationship psychotherapist who provides psychedelic integration therapy. For my doctoral dissertation, I researched the practice of relationship anarchy, and I had so much joy conducting those interviews with relationship anarchists around the world that I wanted to create a space on the podcast to continue the conversation.
And so this is the third interview of the Relationship Anarchy series, and I've been having so much fun conducting these interviews and growing through these conversations, and dear listener, I hope you are enjoying them just as much as I am. Today's guest, Sarah, had mentioned at the end of the episode that we need to share the stories of everyone, people of all different identities, that are practicing as relationship anarchists.
And so that means I need you, dear listener. If you are a relationship anarchist, I want to talk to you and your community. I've had some people write in and say, Oh, I'm not a therapist. I'm not sure. Am I able to come on the show and talk about this? And the answer is yes. I want to hear from you. I want to hear from the full community and we're going to grow together in this.
I really want to have these conversations throughout the rest of my career. So do that. Join me. I want to have conversations with all of you beautiful pleasure activists out there that are challenging the status quo. Let's grow and expand and continue to learn together what it means to dismantle the power structures that are in the way of accessing our pleasure and ability to share love.
If you are interested in sharing your voice, there are two ways to do that. One, you could submit your written answer to the questions below. Or two, you could apply to have a conversation with me at deep dive one on one over zoom, where we would talk about relationship anarchy and more depth. All of these interviews are being used toward my eventual book on relationship anarchy.
And select interviews are being released on the podcast, like this one today. Dear listener, whether you submit a written answer, whether you join me for a conversation, whether you send this podcast to a friend, or are just tuning in, please know that I am so thankful that you are here. This space is so, so meaningful to me, and I am just so touched and honored to hear that it is having such a big impact in all of your lives.
And, again, I'm really committed to this space. I will show up with you each week, and I promise to be humble and continue to grow and learn and challenge myself, and I hope that you really enjoy joining me for that long ride together. All right, dear listener, please know that I am sending you all of my love.
And with that, let's tune into today's episode. So then the first question I like to ask each guest is, how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Sarah Caroline: I love this question and I noticed that my first come from is, let's see, I'm a cis white female with, you know, how old am I, what, I have inhabited this body for 60 years.
And the most consistent identity that I really relate to is that I'm an artist. It's the way I see the world. I see the world in color. I see the world in patterns, in interactions, in connections. I express that a lot with materials. I express that in making things for people that I love. And I express that professionally.
I've been a graphic designer for Four decades now. Also who I am. I have had the honor of bringing two beings into the world who are now adults. And I have the honor of one of those has also brought a being into the world. And that grandkid is the reason that I moved from California where I'm from to Philadelphia when I was 50.
In that process, I left a relationship of 30 years, which was a big change. But our relationship was always unconventional. We got married after we had two kids, a house and a Volvo. And, uh, we were open for the first. But it really was too hard. I always said, well, we became monogamous by default, but I realized now it was because we didn't have language and we didn't have communication skills, but it's something I've always related to.
I finally heard the term relationship anarchy in 2018. And I felt like that was describing the way I have always been and not just in romantic relationships, but in all my relationships, like who are these people I'm relating to? Who is this person, the checkout person that I'm relating to? Who is this kid that I'm raising who came from my biological material, but they are a being.
How do I relate to that being to really appreciate the description of relationship anarchy? Current relationship landscape is very diverse. Priority relationships include with my 10 year old grandkid. That is a priority in my life. These two adult people who happen to have been my children, one of them is my closest confidant.
I am very close with my blood family, and I have a whole network of friends who I relate to as family. I have a married nesting partner, and we live in Buffalo. And I have a platonic partner who lives near Toronto. So close to Buffalo. Um, I have a sweetie in Philadelphia, which is where my granddaughter is.
So I'm like back and forth between Philadelphia and Buffalo. I have a nesting partner who died in 2019. We lived together in Philadelphia and I now have a household in the house that he and I lived in the house that he died in. Um, so I maintain households in both. Cities and they're just so many human beings in the world that I enjoy relating to.
That's the relationship landscape.
Nicole: Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing for me and opening up and giving more of those personal details to kind of paint the landscape for some of these deeper questions we're going to dive into and kind of get into the fun. You know, I'm excited for your artsy brain and creativity that's going to, you know, go.
Be shared with me and all of the guests here in terms of how you understand relationship anarchy and even just what you were already saying about that connection to the philosophy and feeling it, you know, embodied in yourself and your soul for years before the word. That's a lot of what I heard in my research and these conversations.
So I think you're hitting on something there for people of that felt sense. So I'm excited to talk to you. Thank you. Yeah. So the first question is, What is relationship anarchy?
Sarah Caroline: The relationship anarchy is really Paying attention to what is available between two human beings. It is that presence with, oh, who are you?
Who am I? Where do we connect? Where do we not connect? What's available? What's interesting? Like, sometimes there are things that are interesting that aren't available. Okay? To me, relationship anarchy is paying attention to what's available and going with that.
Nicole: Yeah. Yes. That requires a lot of deconstruction.
I'm just thinking about my own lived experience with that, right? Of getting off of the scripts, getting off of the escalator, trusting in love that isn't just inherently based in sex, right? Like, I mean, there's just so much there to deconstruct. Oh, yeah. Constant deconstruction. I have a big sign that I'm making.
I haven't made it yet, but it says deconstruction zone. Yeah. That's in my house. Exactly. Exactly. Which is the next question, right? Of, of how do you practice this? What does that look like for you?
Sarah Caroline: Well, okay. Again, it is relating to individuals as they are. And I do that in all aspects of relationship, for example, with the beings who came out of my body that I raised as children who are now adults.
I have relationships with each of them as the. Adults that they are now. The older one is also a graphic designer and illustrator, and we talk about our professional work, we share tips about how to deal with clients, and we share tips about how to deal with software, and, and billing, and creative ideas, and, you know, like, we relate to each other that way.
Every once in a while, they call me, mom, mom, I'm in the ER and that, but it's a, it's a cue part of relationship we're enacting right now. The younger one, we are just, this kid was born a Buddha and we, we have always had a very equal relationship. Even when they were seven, they would say. Mom, being an adult is so hard.
I can't believe all the things you have to do. I'm like, how do you know this as a seven year old? And so now they travel around the country and we talk about like what our life is and what we were trying to accomplish and what we want, our current relationships and how they're going, really, I can share anything with them and they can share anything with me.
And I love, I just value that relationship so much. When I left my partner, married person who was the father of the children, I spent four years on my own really deconstructing that. I spent time at Al Anon, I spent time in therapy, I, I was really deconstructing my needs and what I want. And I went on OkCupid because one of my kids had had a good experience there.
And I love that there are all these words, like all these questions to answer and words. And I really took a deep dive into what do I want in relationship. Like, I don't care what people think of me. I know what I want. If you don't like this, I don't care. Hell yeah. But the person who did care, a person who really liked that, found me.
And we just connected so deeply, so deeply. They were polyamorous. And I said, oh, been there, done that. Don't wear the T-shirt anymore. Um, because when I had it in this earlier relationship, it was so hard. Sure. But this new relationship, he was so articulate and good at deconstructing and good at the language, and he's the one who introduced me to relationship anarchy.
Wow. And like the concept of demisexual and like, you know, like he is reading and bringing in new ideas and articles. Right. Our communication was so clear that as we practice polyamory together, I had all the opportunities to like, really relate to like, okay, if I'm feeling jealousy, what does that mean for me?
And I could talk to him and started. Creating metamore relationships and yeah, like it was really fruitful and then, and then he got cancer and in case he died, I'm so sorry for your loss. It was intense. And he was like, okay, I'm dying. What do I do? Like, how do I do this? Well, he had an amazing death and I was right there with him.
Yeah. Should not have happened, but it did. And it was the best. It was the best it could be. So from there, he and I talked about, like, I, you know, you've got to go live your life. You're going to have love. You're going to, you're going to have an amazing life. And so really processed my grief. I still am.
It's been four and a half years. Of course. And I reached out again and using that tool of, okay, Cupid that works for me because of the word. Another person who connects to word. We connected, I was in California, they were in Buffalo because we were completely authentic about who we were. No holds barred.
It doesn't matter. I'm just going to tell you who I am. And if you don't like me, that's fine. We knew right away that we wanted to have a life partnership. See, we met in March, 2020 during the pandemic and all we could do is talk and share everything. And in June of 2020, we decided we wanted to get married.
A lot of it came out of that paradigm of, you know, like when you, when you want to have a life partner, you marry them. Like I'm continually deconstructing that paradigm, which is, it's so foundational, but we realized that we wanted to create our marriage. As what we wanted it to be. We're not going to accept the prescriptions.
So in writing our vows, we literally were defining what part of Marriage we wanted. Beautiful. We used the relationship anarchy smorgasbord. I love this. It was so great. It was so good. It's like, okay, I definitely want this and this. And I'd like those to be exclusive, I think. But we, you know, we can negotiate that.
But like, I definitely want this, this, this, this, this. A little bit of cilantro. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, like, yeah, you're totally open to share these with other people. We're totally open to share these with other people. There's just a couple things that, you know, let's consider those things. So we wrote our vows that way.
Oh, how beautiful. I'm really good with one or two relationships. That's a lot of energy. So, I have a smaller romantic, let me, let me define that, a smaller romantic relationship landscape. My married nesting partner loves meeting people and loves that process of developing the relationship and it's been such a great process of like sharing that with them as they, you know, develop the relationship and we talk about what we're experiencing.
So that's the practice. And then I have this platonic partner who we are each other's people, you know, we tell each other everything and like, that's the person, you know, that I would go to like my nesting partner is present and I'm also that person like I have a lot of that kind of person. But you know, there's an undeniable connection between me and my platonic partner.
And then I have a sweetie. In Philadelphia, it's like so sweet and romantic and that's part of it. That's kind of the high notes.
Nicole: Yeah, exactly. We'll get to the low notes. That's the question at the end, right? The difficulties. Yeah, yeah. What a big abundance of relationships you have in your life that are so fulfilling and Just even the first point on communication, right?
Woof. If we could use one word, it's just lots of communication, which I think is hot when you're on the same page, right? That we love that, right? But the amount of communication is, is much more than when you have the escalator and these clear boxes and these clear. Paths forward. So I love that you hit on that.
And you also, you know, hit on family as a part of the way that you orient this. That was also something I saw in my research, right? So many people kind of practice this within sexual romantic, you know, deconstruction, but that also means applying it to the other relationships in our lives, like family, Family.
And how do you do that in a way that's conscious of power dynamics and societal implications? Right? So that's a huge piece as well. And I think even, you know, the marriage thing, it's, it's so much you hit on the importance of it being descriptive. What do you want this to mean for you? Not what society says it is not what this is this.
And you can do those things that society deems normal with what it means to you, right? Like, Oh, yeah.
Sarah Caroline: Oh, yes. Being a conscientious objector doesn't mean you throw it all out, right? It means you choose the parts that are meaningful to you and let go of the parts that aren't letting go. That's one of the tricks.
Nicole: Yeah. Actively deconstructing every day.
Sarah Caroline: Yeah. Every day. Every day.
Nicole: Exactly. Exactly.
Sarah Caroline: A lot of people say, Oh, it's so much work. And yes, it is. It's constant work every day. And This is the work that I would rather do. Oh, yeah. Are you kidding me? Yeah. I, I, I want to do this work. I, I want to spend my energy deconstructing, wow, when you said that, it triggered this thing in me.
What was that in me that it triggered? And you know, it actually had to do with this experience that I had, like, you know, no conversation is just like, okay, yeah,
Nicole: right. Right. And when relationships create our quality of life. Oh, yeah, of course, this is where I'd want to invest my energy and getting more nuanced understanding of what?
my the people in my world are hearing when I speak to them and what it's activating and all of that and again compared to the the culture of Comedy about the the ball and chain. Oh my god the ball and chain, right? Like this sort of normalized world of this relationship such a drag on my life and I hate I mean again I will choose hours of conversation for joy and pleasure in my relationship over the alternative.
Sarah Caroline: That isn't even an option on the table. That just never, that just never has been. I, I have some difficult relationships and I stick with them because there's fruit in there. There's juice in there. But that I'm aware of that. It's not just like, well, I have to,
Nicole: I know, I know. So even that nuance, right? It's not all pleasure.
There are days of work and investing in that, but it's not this space of, you know, I'm forced to do this. This is something we're freely choosing and the beauty of investing time and energy and growing that garden. You know, it takes those, those days of going out there and doing that sort of work for the blossoms, right?
Sarah Caroline: Yes. Yeah. And same with family, that blood family isn't an obligation. Right. That's a real big one. If that family doesn't work, find other family that does.
I have been fortunate in my blood family of having really good connections there. And I also have friends who really are my family.
Nicole: Exactly. Yeah. Same.
It's been very meaningful to find those relationships and the people that understand you and can be that, you know, and I think that's definitely something, at least for me, I've had to deconstruct a lot of pressure around, right? Cause there's so many societal messages around what it means to be a good daughter, a good mom.
Exactly. And so I think sometimes, you know, the relationship anarchy practice definitely is something that grounds me in that of what does it mean to actually look at these relationships as individual relationships and, and kind of come from that space rather than I should do this, right? Getting locked in those shoulds.
Sarah Caroline: Right. Right. Love getting rid of those. Those are the weeds that you pull out. Wait, there's a, wait, why should I, why? What's that? Yeah.
Nicole: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And maybe we're already hitting on this one, but why do you practice relationship anarchy?
Sarah Caroline: My gut reaction is, I can't imagine being any other way.
Nicole: Right.
Sarah Caroline: That's my gut reaction. Um, it feels human if I have a spiritual practice. It is the practice of being as human as I can be and allowing people to be as human as they are feels natural. It feels true to me. Yeah.
Nicole: I'd love to hear more on the spiritual practice. My mind is already percolating with ideas of how that connects, but I'd love to hear more.
Sarah Caroline: I grew up in Berkeley, California. I, in a lot of spiritual practice, I have been part of. Groups and organizations with, you know, exploration and I've come to a sort of agnostic place of not feeling like there's any identity out there. But we are connected kind of like mycelium and I just keep on coming back to the earth and the humanness and, and there's just something special that happens with us, our ability to be conscious.
There's something special about that. I don't want to deify it. I don't want to make it this big, like inaccessible, big spiritual thing, but I do. That's why I say if I had a spiritual practice, it really is this practice of being human and being, you know, Grounded in our bodies. And one of my practices when I did commute to an office, I would ride on the subway and look at people's faces and just see the human beauty in them like everybody, not just, you know, people who fit the prescription of beauty for our culture.
But. Just these human beings and trying to imagine what their inner landscape might be like and what their life might be like and what Challenges they might be facing and what joys they might experience and that that for me is a kind of mindful spiritual practice
Nicole: Yeah Yeah. And I mean, it's so much to really slow down and think about the full worlds that every human has in their head.
When you really try to slow down, like you're saying on the subway or the train, you know, and I kind of just, Oh, this person has a whole history, a whole collection, a whole list of dreams, sorrows, pain, but I mean, wow, when you really sit with that, I mean, There is something spiritual about just the, the level of world building that we all do up there.
Right. And yeah, I mean, to hold that reality and, and even just, I think there's a lot of beauty in the spiritual practice of love, right? What does it mean to hold that and try and be as conscious of that? When I am connecting with this person, I could see. the relationship anarchy practice as a spiritual practice of love, right?
What does it mean to do that? Uh, intentional intentionally in a way that maybe society often puts that sort of intentionality to one person. What would it mean to do that to all people? Right?
Sarah Caroline: Yeah. Yeah. Just love that. Like each person is the center of their own universe. And so I sort of watch them and like, Oh, what is your universe?
And driving All these people in cars. I think each one of them is the center of their universe.
Nicole: Exactly, which is really exciting. I think then to think about the narratives that you can write with people, knowing that holding that ray of, okay, we are isolated in our own universe, the center there, but then what sort of narrative are we co creating then when we come together? I mean, I just get excited about the possibilities of narratives you can write and stories and all the beauty of that.
Sarah Caroline: Yes. Yes. And it is stories. That's, that's what we do as humans is that we tell stories about our experience and we can share stories, which is so exciting. And an interesting question that one of my metamors asked recently is how do you want to feel in relationship? And so in our polycule, we sort of all have been answering this question.
And one of the things that I came up with is that I want to feel like I'm in cahoots. I want to be co creating. I want to be in this conspiratorial space of like, what are we doing together? And it's writing stories, and it's sharing those stories, and sort of both being invested in similar stories. But like a story, you can have improv.
You can say, Oh, hey, it's going this way now. You know, that's the practice of saying yes and yes. Co creating stories. It's all stories. Right. That's all it is, really.
Nicole: Hence the beauty of the story. I'm telling myself is before you say to the partner, you know, exactly, exactly.
Sarah Caroline: Yeah. Oh, it's such a good, that's, that's a really good relational tool.
Nicole: Easier said than done to remember in the, in the distress of the moment, but you're, you know, we're important to remember and, and sort of have Exactly.
Sarah Caroline: Yeah. You get better at it by doing it.
Nicole: Yeah.
Sarah Caroline: Mm hmm.
Nicole: I think that's really why I like the idea of practicing relationship anarchy, right? It's something we're always moving towards.
It's something we're always getting better at versus this, I identify and this is where I'm at right now. It is a continual practice, right? There is no end to deconstructing the systems and the, the, uh, ways that they're internalized. I'm, I'm, I'm shoveling. This is what I've been thinking about for that.
I'm like, God, I just gotta keep digging, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Constantly. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. And again, we've been hitting on this in so many different ways, but how does relationship anarchy impact your practice of intimacy?
Sarah Caroline: I'm not sure that I can separate it because It is all about being authentic.
It's all about being present. There is so much to deconstruct about sexual intimacy in the roles that we learn and get imposed on us. Here I am 60 and uncovering new ways that I relate sex and love. Sure. That I, you know, sort of thought I was over, but they're still there deep underneath as bodies change and sex is different.
And like, for me personally, I have diminished sensations, which is really frustrating and you know, not what I would expect because I've just had so many great sensations in my life, but as I have diminished sensation and changing interest, Um, in sexual intimacy, I had a moment of like crisis of like, am I going to be loved?
Which was a whole really interesting deconstruction, but coming to it with a practice of relationship anarchy, there was a place to start a conversation about, so this is where I am and we know this is what's available. And my partners. Saying, okay, well, I'm interested in what is available and I'm okay that that other thing isn't available and can we, are there things that are available that we haven't discovered yet?
It's been an amazing place to be with people who are also practicing relationship anarchy and, you know, all of it, no one is perfect. It is a practice and we all have such deep things to uncover, but it's been a really gentle and kind relationship. Place to explore intimacy and to explore all the forms of intimacy.
I just had a reason recognition about why I love being domestic. One of my partner's experiences, domesticity is sort of like mundane and unexciting, and we noticed that there was a difference in how we felt about that. And I have just discovered how for me, being domestic is being ultimately vulnerable.
Which is when I feel safe to be that vulnerable, that is incredibly intimate to me and like incredibly exciting, sexy in a way.
Nicole: Yeah.
Sarah Caroline: It's the stories that you tell about, like to me, that home where you can be vulnerable is super sexy. Mm hmm. And I couldn't get there without that. Just that freedom to explore what exists rather than have it be in a box, like if I notice something's in a box, I'm like, Oh, well, that doesn't belong there.
Let's take that apart.
Nicole: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, And there is so much to deconstruct around sexuality and that there, right? Just as you were speaking, I was thinking about a recent conversation I had with a partner about like trusting, you know, as the eroticism shifts in our dynamic, trusting that I'm still lovable to them, right?
Sarah Caroline: Yes.
Nicole: What? What? What?
Sarah Caroline: It's a hard one to accept just because of how powerful the stories are that we grew up in, the paradigms that we grew up in, that sex and love are so intrinsically linked. And whether or not my partner has an orgasm reflects on my value as a partner and whether or not I'm lovable.
And like that shit has to be deconstructed, but it's hard to stay present through that. So worthwhile when you can,
Nicole: yeah, but like you said, it's the years of classical conditioning, right?
Sarah Caroline: Right.
Nicole: All the narratives. I see all the things, all the blah, blah, blah. So of course, I think it's just important, you know, like other sort of structures, internalized homophobia, internalized other things.
It makes sense that we're going to have that. reaction and our ability to have a nuanced reaction to know that that first reaction is not necessarily a reflection of us as much as it is a reflection of the internalized assumptions of the system. And once we have that awareness, then we can bring that into relationship with the people we're with.
And I can say, Oh, I'm scared that you're not going to love me. If we take this off the table. And the beauty of the relationship anarchists that I'm with says. There's so many other forms of intimacy, Nicole. It's okay. And then you cry, right? Okay. Okay. Well now maybe I want to have sex. I don't know, you know, now that the pressure's off Jesus, you know, right.
Sarah Caroline: Right. It's such a beautiful thing to accept your first reaction to not reject it even just to go, Oh, wow. That was my first reaction. And noticing that it is so often conditioned by the external forces. The first one is often, yeah. And so to sit through that, to allow it to move through it, that it takes practice.
I mean, I feel like I've been practicing. All my life and getting, you know, like I'm getting better at it and you're like making improvements. There are things that are easier for me now The first time with my partner in 2018 when I was sort of becoming polyamorous again Was really hard for me when they were sexually intimate with other people because of that fear Oh, you're gonna want to have sex with them and not with me, right?
But then we talked about it. So now I've just have so much compersion when my partner having sex with other people. I'm like, no, that's really exciting. Cause you're having a really good time. And I'm so glad. And like, you know, in our bed, sure. Like no problem. But then some little thing will happen. No, that's, that's hard now.
It's like the weirdest thing that my reaction was, Oh, okay. I had that. And both of us were like, okay, yeah, that. That's a real reaction. Are you attached to that reaction? I'm really not sure. Let's think about that.
Nicole: Yeah. Isn't that funny? The things that hit, it's not sex anymore. Now it's the other things.
Sarah Caroline: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. At one point it was, I don't want you to go any restaurants with that person, you know, like new restaurants are for us. But, you know, I mean, it's a valid reaction and, you know, do you want to be attached to that or not? That's sort of one of the questions. It's like, do you want to keep that one?
Okay.
Nicole: I love that question. Yeah. Do you want to be attached to this or not? Right. It gives you enough of that space to say, okay, this is my first reaction. We don't always trust the first reaction, but it's there and we recognize it and we validate it. Now what do we want to do? Right. Do you want to attach to it?
Sarah Caroline: The recognition of validation is actually really good. Like my nuts and partners reaction was like, well, if that's important to you, like I'm okay with that, I'm okay with not doing that here, if that's important to you, like, and that provides the freedom I may or may not choose to stay attached to that, but I really feel like I have the freedom because they validated and honored what my reaction was.
Nicole: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I really appreciate you naming, you know, at the very beginning, how hard it was to even comprehend your partner having sex with someone else, right? To the space of joy that you have now with it and realizing the other things that pin that same sort of feeling now, right? But something way beyond that, right?
Sarah Caroline: Yeah. Yeah. There is an evolution. There really is an evolution of practice. And it really, I really become more aware of things that I become comfortable with. And then when the new things come up that I'm uncomfortable with, I see them like, Oh, there's a new uncomfortable thing. Well, I've worked through other uncomfortable things before.
Okay. Hi, uncomfortable thing. What are you, you know, there's a resilience that comes with experience and comes with practice. I mean, I experienced that as a parent, like by the time my kids were teenagers, I'm like, okay, this is hard, but I've been doing this for a while, you know, in, in my career, I've been doing it for a long time, like new things that come up that are hard.
I'm like, okay, I think I've got the resources to handle this. And I'm feeling that way in relationships, like when those triggers come up, I feel like I have the resources and the confidence of, ah, this doesn't feel great right now, but I'm pretty sure I can work through this.
Nicole: Mm hmm. That's a difference.
Yes, it is rather than maybe at the first point of it, right? Which who knows who's listening, right? Someone at that very beginning point of the, Oh God, you're going to do what? Oh, and I've definitely gone through this at the beginning of my journey. Maybe this isn't for me. Maybe I'm completely wrong.
Maybe this isn't the answer. And I regret everything I've ever said on the podcast, right? You know, you know, that's the first thought versus years of doing this to. Oh, I've done hard things in the past. I know I can do this again. I know I am not my reactions. I am the actions that I choose to take, right?
Like, oof.
Sarah Caroline: Yeah. Yeah. That takes experience to have confidence in that because sometimes it really doesn't feel like it. It is really hard. It is a lot of work and the benefits are so great that I feel so much love. There are so many people I'm connected with. My partners have picked amazing people. I have amazing relationships with metamors.
Oh my god, these are great people. And I have such freedom to be myself. And if I choose something that one of my partners isn't into, that's great. They don't have to participate. There are other people that can participate, or I've got a really great relationship with myself. So I can just, I can just do that with me.
If no one else is into it, like, I want to go see it. I don't know anyone who wants to go see it. I'll go see it. It'd be fun to share, but that's not the only way to do it.
Nicole: Yeah. I think that is exactly how we get out of the model of the ball and chain, right? This force, the force of this is the one person who asked to do everything with me and needs to meet all of my needs, et cetera, et cetera, to a much more expansive of.
What sounds good for the both of us? What is going to bring both of us joy to invest our limited time and energy on this planet in, right?
Sarah Caroline: Yes. Yes.
Nicole: Which we're kind of talking about all the joys. Let's hit on the next question, which is what are the difficulties of relationship anarchy?
Sarah Caroline: Yes. Well, it's challenging all of those assumptions that you have. One of the ones that catches me the most. Still, and I've been recently putting a lot more energy into is that all the ways in which the modern normative paradigm tells me I'm special.
And when you let go of, well, if I'm not the only one, how am I special? If I'm not the one you want to have sex with more than anybody else, how am I special? I actually feel in a new place about this than I did like even a year ago. Cool. Kind of being solo Polly in a way, like I am special to me. Really like developing the ways that I'm special to me and recognizing the ways that I am unlike anyone else, right?
And I'm mango and like other people are, you know, the most glorious Ravioli and. Both of those things are extraordinary and wonderful and you don't always want just one or the other. And you know, sometimes you're in the mood for one, sometimes you're in the mood for the other. And it doesn't diminish anything.
So I'm really like practicing how I can be special. I've had great conversations with metamors about how we each want to be special and how do we like support being special. That comes up a lot. And I basically have been writing new stories about how I'm special. Another thing that really comes up. is triggering each other's triggers, the landmine, the landmines, especially with my nesting partner.
There are things that trigger them. And once they're triggered, then I'm triggered. And then we're both in this space. It comes up fairly regularly in certain ways. And it's been so good to get to the point where now they'll get triggered. And as I'm getting triggered, I'm saying, you know what, I'm getting triggered by you just getting triggered.
Yeah. Oh, oh, I'm having that reaction again. Oh. And there's something that you have to pay attention to those reactions that come from fear. You know, naming some of the things that I always afraid, like I have this fundamental codependent fear that if I didn't do it right, like if you're uncomfortable, then I did it wrong.
And then you're not going to love me anymore. Or I'm not going to be safe. And they're really deep programs. So, yeah, the landmines of triggers. Are really in relationship anarchy. Relationships, because. You're just, you know, you're being yourself and seeing it when it happens. You're not sweeping it on this carpet.
Nicole: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Which again, I choose this paradigm over the ball and chain any day. I will choose this any day. Monogamy through exclusivity and that sacredness and the ways that, you know, it's one person that I have sex and romance with and that's how they find the safety. And I was just like, Chewing on it, chewing on it, chewing on it, and then I came to what you kind of said of, wait, I find sacredness through exclusivity.
Not of control of their sexuality, not of control of their romantic freedom, but in the exclusivity of me. Like no one else is ever going to be Me. I find the sacredness of that through me. Good luck finding another Nicole. I wish I could find her. Where is she at? I want a twin, you know?
Sarah Caroline: Right. Right. And women in our culture are just so trained to compete.
Like, always scanning. Who's the best looking in there? Am I better looking than her? Oh, what, like, what do I do if she's better looking than me? Like, that is so much part of our culture and we're trained to this. But just turning that around, as you say, like there isn't anyone who can be like me and I have to trust, you know, if you like me, you like me.
And if you don't. Okay. Right. If you're not in the mood for me right now, like, you know, I can be disappointed because I was in the mood for you. But if you're not, I don't really want you to be with me if you're not in the mood for me. So I'll go find something else to do.
Nicole: Yeah, I find a lot of security in that this embrace of change, embrace of the inevitability of all of this, right, of, okay, I am the only person that is going to be me.
If you want me. Beautiful. And that might change one day. And okay, if that's the case, then I want you to follow what brings you happiness and joy. I do not want to be your ball and chain in this world. Okay. Do not. And of course it's gonna hurt, but I don't want someone who doesn't want to be with me and nor would I do that to someone else.
And so I think that embrace of the sacredness of our exclusivity of the self here. I love that.
Sarah Caroline: I love that phrase. Yeah. I have felt that if there's a good and evil, which I'm not convinced there is, but sort of the closest that I come to it is that exclusivity is often really negative and inclusivity is often really good.
And so that's also, I come to like the exclusiveness of relationship of it's only you feels limited Cut off. Even if the two of us are choosing to stand here, I want to stand embracing the world. I want to stand looking out. I want to stand engaging, even if there's two of us together. So exclusivity always has a little bit of a charge for me, but the uniqueness of, there is only one you, there's only one me, there's only one them.
You can't repeat that. That's the Unicorn Princess.
Nicole: Where sacredness through uniqueness is what we like.
Sarah Caroline: Mm hmm. Yeah.
Nicole: Because it's so true. And language is important, right? Yes. Um, because yeah, exclusivity does, it seems to come back to almost like this idea of power kind of. Yeah. It seems like, I gotta look into the, the word history stuff.
But if it brings up
Sarah Caroline: who wrote the rules,
Nicole: it brings up ideas of power and control. And when I think of exclusivity, um, versus yeah, uniqueness doesn't seem to have that same sort of power over model kind of energy to it when I think about it.
Sarah Caroline: And those are really important. Something that you said in a podcast that I listened to recently about de escalating a relationship.
It automatically implies that you're going from up here to down here when, you know, when it's no longer romantic, it's no longer as important. And that is such an important paradigm shift, something to deconstruct, but it isn't de escalation, it's transformation. Right. Reconfiguring. We're going to reconfigure.
We're going to shift. This is how our relationship has been, and we're feeling in the mood for something else. So let's shift it. And our culture is so adverse to change, but change is reality. It's never the same river twice. You're never the same person. Seven years later, all your cells are different.
Change is reality. And I don't know why human beings and cultures are so resistant to it because like, why are you resistant to the fact that we breathe air? That we grow? Yeah. So that I'm really embracing change and the resilience to move with the change rather than the fear and the brittleness. To resist change is a really important part of being able to practice relationship baronetry because it is embracing change what's available now.
Oh. And what's available now, something else is available. I mean, if any of my partners said, you know what, I'm going to go do this other thing, if that's what works for them, I, my nesting partner decided that they were going to retire and travel. They started the conversation with, well, if you weren't in the picture, I would do this.
I was like, excuse me, how about doing that while I am in the picture? Do what you want to do. They retired. They went traveling for six months. They decided that they wanted to come back and continue teaching. So they just had a year sabbatical, but an unpaid sabbatical, but, but that was the point is that was what they wanted.
That's what served them. And it's been an amazing experience for them. I want that for them. I want to do. Right. It works for me. Right. I spend time with my granddaughter. I leave home and go to another city. I maintain a household in another city so that I can spend time with my granddaughter because that's what I want and my partners are really supportive of it because they know it's what I want and they love me and they want me to have what I want.
Nicole: Yeah. Exactly. And the beauty of that then, I think, is the spiritual practice here with this, right? I find this to be such a selfless practice, right, of I want you in this lifetime, my dear partner and person in front of me to explore all that the world has to offer to you. And I want to celebrate with you in that journey and hold your hand in that journey and cry with you in that journey and be there and not the ball and chain, right?
Oh, I find that such a beautiful spiritual practice of selflessness and non attachment.
Sarah Caroline: Yeah. Yeah. And so full of love. Like, I feel more love. It's not. dampening attachment. It's not releasing love. I just, I feel more love. I'm so much excitement.
Nicole: Which next question, what are the joys of relationship anarchy for you?
Sarah Caroline: Oh, there are so many. I've already touched on many of them. It is being able to be authentic. It is not being restricted. It's being in agreement and negotiating everything's in negotiation, which I like because then everything's available.
It's like living improv. It's this rich emotional landscape of people and experience. It's so much love. It's just, it's experiencing love. Like, I just love like the two, three, four, five way conversations that we get going among polycules and, and, um, it's like, that's just to have intimacy with multiple people.
And. Yesterday, my nesting partner and my platonic partner were talking about an idea that I had for a garment for one of them, and now they're going to work on making it together. Cute, cute. That's a pleasure. That's a pleasure.
Nicole: And then your partners will unionize again soon. Do you, that's been a fun one for me.
Just jokingly, of course, I have this like radiator. That's way too hot next to my bed. And every partner's like, I can't put up with this. We're going to unionize to get the radiator removed. I thought that was a funny joke the other day. I was just like, I love that. I love that. I sleep on it. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. It's so wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess I want to hold a little bit of space too to talk about what it means to be a woman who's doing this.
Sarah Caroline: There's that, but also what we're really experiencing is what it's like to be in our 60s. Yeah. Yeah. And so much of the cultural conversation is around how the young people are.
Doing polyamory and relationship anarchy and, you know, we've all been this way for a long time or, you know, various, various times. I mean, now everyone's a little bit different, but like here we are in our 60s with the exception of one partner who will be 60 in two months. All of us are over 60. I feel like being a woman doing this, for me, I, like I worked through that a long time ago, that is a challenge for women.
It's definitely an, you know, and actually it comes, like it came up in sort of recognizing my relationship with sex and love and how committed I, you know, like how, Much I had attachment I had to like whether or not my partners have orgasms and whether or not that means I'm lovable Right like and that that is the script of a woman in this culture So there is that the women in my polycule are so open and powerful and know themselves and And that's just amazing to be in a relationship with them and the men in my polycule are very open and powerful and amazingly, you know, aware of their emotions and their internal landscapes.
I mean, they're just amazing people. I'm also really interested in deconstructing gender roles,
right? I see my male bodied partners. Expressing things that are not part of their gender culture. Like my, my partner who traveled decided that they were interested in long dangle earrings and came home with an amazing collection of earrings.
And now we share. Love that. Why does having a cis white male body mean you can't be stylized? Like what? drop that.
Nicole: Yeah, exactly. More scripts of power of how to be in relationship to self, right?
Sarah Caroline: Right, right. I don't want to diminish the challenge for women, but I also All of us are challenged by the scripts that we grew up in.
I really have been privileged to grow up in privilege. I mean, that got handed to me by being cis, white, and female, but also then the culture that I grew up in Berkeley, California, liberal. Yeah, I really, I really recognized like a lot of barriers were never in my way. And, you know, Relating effectively with the existing paradigms and the existing cultures.
I didn't struggle in school. I didn't, you know, I recognize like so many obstacles that I didn't experience. I want to believe that this kind of freedom and self awareness is available to everyone. And I recognize that I have had much fewer barriers. And. You know, my heart is like, I want everyone to be able to experience their authentic selves and that freedom.
And I'm not sure if I know how to. Share that other than to talk about it. The people that I come in contact with right?
Nicole: The personal is the political you do it in every single conversation when you share your joy with the world and your energy and your vivaciousness Right, you know, that's important.
You're doing it now. This conversation, all the people who are tuning in and growing and learning from you. And I, I feel that ache in your heart of, I want everyone to experience this. And I don't know if it's possible, right? Because of the different things in the world, but I do believe in the power of pleasure and I think people feel it.
I think people feel it in you when you speak. I think people feel it in me. And I think that, that. I know that intimidates a lot of people too at first. That's the fun part, right? But I think it also calls people into more curiosity of what is that thing that they've found and it's good relationships, right?
It's really good relationships.
Sarah Caroline: Yeah. Yeah. I want to call people in. I really do want to call people in.
Nicole: And you're a testament, right? Like you said, 60, right? There's a lot of cultural narratives, a lot of scripts about what that looks like, and you're writing a new one.
Sarah Caroline: Oh yeah. I'm writing the one for me, and other people get to write the ones for them, and I'm curious.
Like what are you writing? I want to know.
Nicole: Exactly, exactly, exactly. Yeah. Which leads me to the last question of the research. What do you wish other people knew about relationship anarchy?
Sarah Caroline: I said it before, I really wish people knew that this is for all ages, that this is for everyone, that this isn't, I mean, every generation of young people has thought that they've, you know, discovered something brand new and invented something new.
You know, in the 60s, you know, my grandmother was like, all these people who thought they were like, Going back to nature. That's where I grew up. And, you know, but I also appreciate cultural conversation that's opened up by more young people exploring this. But I, I really want people to be aware that this is for humans, not just young humans, but all humans.
I know people who are polyamorous in their 70s and 80s. People like me who started being Open before there was language available, but you know, I didn't know, I didn't have words and shared conversation like that is so powerful having shared stories. Let's share the stories of everybody. It's not just young people.
It's everybody.
Nicole: Which is why it's been such a pleasure to have you here, right? I really appreciate you answering the call for the research and the opportunity to come on here, right? Because you are that voice that someone can actually hear talk about their lived experience with the passion in their voice.
Words are incredibly powerful, love words, but to be able to pair that with the sound of your life force. Powerful.
Sarah Caroline: Thank you. Thank you for doing this research and for reaching out and, and you are one of those people who is helping give words to this experience that many of us are living. And I really appreciate the words that you're exploring and the words that you're sharing.
They are very powerful and, and have touched me and brought new insight to me also in listening to just what you're sharing. You know, a few of your many podcasts and definitely a part of my repertoire now. And sharing with people.
Nicole: Oh, yeah. I want to embody that feeling so deeply. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.
And I'm changed, right? I've got my sacredness through uniqueness written down over here, you know, and just the ways that these conversations will continue to shape me. And so we're, we're doing this collectively as a movement. And I'm, I'm so thankful to be having these beautiful conversations where I don't know you, but we come together through the two words, relationship anarchy.
And in so many ways, I know you immediately, right. And can have such a level of conversation and shared understanding that is. Brings that life force and zest, uh, because of the shared understanding there.
Sarah Caroline: Yeah. These stories that we share are so powerful.
Nicole: Well, I want to take a deep breath together.
And so I'll ask you if there's anything left on your heart that you want to share with the listeners. Otherwise, I can guide us towards a closing question.
Sarah Caroline: It's been such a wonderful, far ranging conversation. I know that there's a lot more that we can explore, but I feel really grateful for everything that we have explored.
I don't feel like there's anything glaringly missing.
Nicole: Okay. Well, then the closing question that I ask each guest is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Sarah Caroline: Being human. Being reactive, being changing, being emotional, being numb, being depressed, being programmed. All of these are states of being human, and it is okay.
That you are human and having all those different experiences. We're so hard on ourselves. I'm too emotional. Oh, I just, I can't operate the way I'm supposed to operate. If we could just normalize our lived experience as okay, maybe it's not what we want it to be. But by accepting it for what it is, then we actually can work with it.
Right. Yeah. Because not allowing yourself to be human, which is so much of what our culture lays on us. Don't be human. Mm hmm. Not allowing ourselves to be human gets us stuck. And I really want people to just be okay that they are human so that they can actually grow.
Nicole: Such an important message and the beauty of sharing those human parts, those tender parts in community with people who can see you validate and say, Hey, I've been there.
I know, or I don't know that feeling because I'm not you, but I have felt something similar. I hear you. Let me messiness, right? That's the message. It's really the power of relationships and hopefully to kind of demystify so much of like you said, society wants you to show up on Monday, answer the phone call on your customer service voice.
Dare you get upset or cry, right? You're not in the system. And so just, you know, a future world of deeper relationships with more space for our humanness. Oof, it's a better world. Yeah.
Sarah Caroline: That's the place I want to live.
Nicole: It was such a joy to have you on the podcast today. So thank you for joining me.
Sarah Caroline: Such a joy to talk with you.
Thank you so much for reaching out. Absolutely.
Nicole: Yeah. Would you like me to cue for you to plug your art and your connections with that? No. Okay. Well
Sarah Caroline: Okay. I'm just me does not have anything. Nothing. Oh, but just for fun in my form. I did put the link to the New York Times article of the vows article that they wrote about when I got married.
It was really awesome. And, and, um, Yeah, it brings up all relationship anarchy and polyamory, and that my, um, my partner who died, his ashes were in a bear was the witness at our wedding. And yeah, it's like, that's the only thing that's fun to share, but I'm not, it's not like I'm plugging it. That's what I have to share.
Nicole: Great. Well, then I'll leave the recording just as is. So all the listeners can go and find that there, you know, beautiful. I'm really glad that that's probably a really neat article. I'm going to have to check that out. Well, thank you for joining us today. If you enjoyed today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast.
And head on over to ModernAnarchyPodcast. com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode. I want to thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.