On today's episode, we have sex educator and content creator Hannah Witton (She/Her) join us for a conversation about the passionate angry that fuels our advocacy for expansive sex education outside of restrictive binaries. Together we talk about toxic monogamy culture, navigating sex after pregnancy, and the Madonna whore complex.
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Intro and Outro Song: Wild Wild Woman by Your Smith
Nicole: All right. Well then my first question is how would you introduce yourself to the listeners?
Hannah: I would introduce myself as a sex nerd. I love that guess. Um, yeah. I'm Hannah. I just recently turned 31. I am a new mum. I guess that's kind of like, The biggest part of my identity at the moment for now. Mm-hmm. I mean, I guess it's always gonna be there now and it is, especially like front and center at the moment.
Mm-hmm. I'm a content creator. I, I don't see myself as an OG content creator cuz I started in like 2011 making YouTube videos and at the time I saw other people making YouTube videos. Like I was watching people who had started in like 2007. But then like when you speak to people now, they're like, you started in 2011 and it makes me old.
Sure, yes. In terms of like being on like YouTube and Instagram and things. Right. But yeah, I've been doing this for a really long time. I make. YouTube videos about like sex and relationships. I'm a sex educator and then I also have my own podcast where I talk to lots of other people about sex and relationships.
I just, I love that I get to kind of explore these things as part of my work and just kind of nerd out. Yes. About it all. Yeah. Yes.
Nicole: Hell yes. And how did you become a sex and nerd? I love that title,
Hannah: the Sex Nerd. In me was kind of always there. And then I still have trouble with imposter syndrome. Mm-hmm.
But like over the years, I've then kind of claimed the title of sex educator. Um, I've also like had, um, I've done certifications, so I can say like I'm a certified sex educator, but it's like, it's one of those ones where there isn't actually like, A single path to becoming a sex educator. That's something that I could talk about for ages as well.
Just like, on the one hand it's great because it's kind of like there's no gatekeeping in terms of who could be a sex educator, but on the other hand it's, it's maybe bad because then there's no like regulation in terms of like training for people who are going to be, you know, quite influential, especially like on young people.
So I've always tried to do my own. Kind of like really taking responsibility and taking it seriously because you know, at the beginning it was just like, I was just a teenager. Like I was 19 myself and being like, wow, I love talking about sex, and I feel really comfortable doing that, whereas other people don't.
And so I feel like I can use, you know, I'd already started making YouTube videos by that point, and I was like, I have this platform and how can I use it for good? Going in without any understanding of like, Really what it means to talk about this topic in a way that actually can impact people for better or worse.
Mm-hmm. Um, but then I've taken it really seriously over the last few years and been like, no, I wanna make sure that I'm actually doing this right and I'm not, you know, causing any harm. Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I got serious real quick. No,
Nicole: but it, but it does. I think as you start to have people listening to you, there's a level of responsibility to take with that, that people are listening to you trusting you, and so being conscious of how that affects people is really important.
And especially I would imagine at like 19 to start doing that. That's a lot of pressure to start feeling, you know? Yeah.
Hannah: It's a weird one. I definitely didn't feel it at the beginning, and I'm so glad that Youngme didn't, because I think if I knew everything that I know now, I wouldn't have started. It would've been, it would've seemed too daunting.
It would've seemed too big a task, and I wouldn't have felt up for it. But instead, I've just kind of like grown and learned as, uh, yeah, as it's as time has passed. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nicole: Yeah. And that. I'm sure people have learned with you. I think that's some of the beauty of that, right? Is that we're all humans and that we're all gonna mess up and maybe say something that was wrong and go through that evolution process together.
And I think that's how we collectively learn that there's space to mess up. That that is part of the human experience. Yeah, and we keep growing.
Hannah: Yeah, there's definitely like a representation of my, my learning, just like publicly available. Yes. Yes. But it, it, it's interesting as well because the way that I kind of like to see it is that everybody is coming to this topic from different places in different stages, and so, Whilst I may look back on a video that I made five years ago and just be like, oh, that's not how I would approach that topic.
Now. I would like, I feel like it's actually missing this angle, or that's not entirely correct. Some people are still, the way that the internet works are still like accessing that now. And it might be really helpful for them because it actually might be like the first stepping stone for them in the same way that it was for me.
And I think, yeah, I try and kind of make a lot of space for that. In terms of like self-compassion. Cause I can look at back at all videos and just be like, what an idiot. And, but then also that then extends to compassion for others because if I'm looking back on that content being like, what an idiot, and somebody comes along to it and it's like, actually that was really helpful.
Then I'm kind of calling them an idiot. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. But actually no, I have so much love for those people. And so it's kind of it, that kind of compassion has to extend to myself as well. Yeah. Um, uh, absolutely, because yeah, everyone is, everyone is just at different stages in, in learning about all this stuff and different understandings and Yeah.
It's interesting. Mm-hmm. Like not everyone who comes to, like my current videos will be at where I am, but then some will, some will be educating me in the comments. Yeah. Then there'll be other people who I try and make them accessible. Um, in terms of whatever you are, where you're coming at it from, but I don't know.
It's, it's, it's tricky cuz then you just, you can't make stuff for everyone sometimes.
Nicole: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think about that too when, um, I think about my mom is Mormon, right? So she comes from Wow. Yeah. Like
Hannah: different because like, maybe one of my current videos would be too much for her.
Yeah. But maybe one from like, Maybe one from like seven years ago might be a bit more gentle. Like, Hey.
Nicole: Exactly. Exactly. And I, as I study kink and get deeper into learning about kink, I'm just like, my God, I know nothing. There is so much to in this world, and like, I think as you get deeper into it, it starts to have more of a language and different pieces.
And so kind of like, yeah, you were saying it's like, Do you try to talk to the one person on the other side, or do you keep going into the deeper, deeper, deeper community? Yeah. That way it's tricky to navigate who you're speaking
Hannah: to, because also if you're having to constantly explain what you mean by certain terms or short hands all of the time, yeah.
Then that just might make for. Really confusing piece of content course or whatever, but it, it's, right, there are different conversations to be had at different times. So you've got like the, the in group conversations where it's about support and it's about community and it's about deepening your understanding.
Right. And then you've, like you said, the kind of, like you've got the conversion, the preaching conversations. I don't know. No. The mom kind of like, Hey, it's okay to like not understand all of this right now. Let's kind of like, you know, That's the basics. Let's like, Get our heads around these things.
Nicole: Yeah, totally, totally, totally.
So I really resonate with you in that journey of, uh, exposed learning process out for the internet to just see whenever they want. That's what it is. Yes. It's an
Hannah: exposed learning process that makes me feel sick sometimes.
Nicole: I know, I know. Sometimes it's even like I'll be re um, editing podcasts that we're a month ago and I'm like, damn, I wish I would've said this.
Now that I'm a month older, I know better. You know, I'm just like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm curious too, then like what was your sex education like? Because at 19, to be really confident to talk about sex, I'm like curious, where were you at? Hey, I mean, you're here now. The universe brought you here. So it's a path.
It's good.
Hannah: So it's funny because I thought. It originally came from, like when I was 18, 19 years old, I got really into like watching YouTube videos. Mm-hmm. And I watched like sex education videos as well as all the other stuff, and I just got really interested in it. I was just like, this is really fascinating.
But also I didn't know this, like why wasn't I taught this? I definitely had a kind of like a bit of passionate anger being like, yes, what, what? Like how have I gotten to 19 years old and how am I a sexually active adult? And this information is, uh, wasn't provided to me. Yeah. And so I thought originally that it just came from that.
But then actually when I started looking back on kind of like my earlier teenage years, there was like the little budding sex educator inside of me just like waiting to come out because like my sex education in school it existed. It was pretty basic. Just kind of like how not to get pregnant, how not to get an sti, you know, no means no, don't have sex if you don't want to.
Like Right. The kind of like really. Like a really limited version of consent. There might have been a, like gay people exist line, but nothing, nothing really more than that if it was there. But I remember like being split off into groups to practice putting a condom on a test tube thing and like no one in my group wanted to do it.
And so I was like, fine, I'll do it. And then I remember also like after school having like friends over. And I just, I have this memory of like showing some of the boys in my class, like how tampons some pads worked by like run running them under, putting them under running water and being like, look how much it expands.
And so there was like this element of me just being like, look, you guys need to know yes this is, you know, like this is normal. And just kind of, I really enjoyed the kind of like demystifying it full of them because like, Yeah, sometimes they would make jokes about periods and or whatever, but they were curious, they were genuinely interested.
They were like, oh wow, I didn't, you know, like when you actually really tap into people's curiosity, it's there and like it's fun and people like wanna learn. Yeah, I remember that. And then, and then when I was 17, I was at a Catholic college and I got in an argument with my re teacher about how. They wouldn't teach us about contraception or abortion.
So like, these are like weird, like little memories that I have. I was like, oh, okay. Like there's something there. Yeah.
Nicole: Yeah. I think that's where that phrase, passionate anger, really excites me. I think that like that inner calling to be able to, to speak and to like roar about these things in a way that society needs to hear.
Because in so many ways it's so repressed, it's so scared we can't talk about these things. Mm-hmm. And it's almost like mm-hmm. We forget like, How did you show up in this world? You know, like, you know, pending big asterisks for people that were in a test tube and you know, in vitro, but like otherwise, you know, like how did you show up in this world?
And yet we're like, we can't talk about it. We can't talk about, yeah, it. And so I love when I get to hear fellow people who have that same like inner passion to bring this out into the world and who have felt that, um, calling for themselves to, to speak about it and to change society's views on these things.
Hannah: Yeah, I, I think I also, it just came from, Yeah, that, that kind of like anger of like there's something not right here, but then also just this curiosity of just like, I must know everything. I must understand it all. This is fascinating. Yeah. Everybody tell me about your sex life and how it makes you feel.
Totally. Yeah. So into it totally.
Nicole: When people ask me about my path, I'm always like, oh, you think I just showed up in this randomly? I mean, like, I went through Christian teachings. I was, you know, a purity ring wearer.
Hannah: You've know you've been on a journey. Yes.
Nicole: Uh, I didn't know I was queer, like so.
Mm-hmm. I think that that's where that anger comes from, that same level of like, Hey, hold on. Whoa. You know? Yeah. There's so much more here. And I think what I'm even finding now is that like on the other side, in the field of psychology, there's so much more that like is still repressed and mm-hmm. Is not talked about in academia enough.
And I think that that creates the world where so many people in my classes are like, Uncomfortable to talk about their clients with about sexuality. And I'm like, wow. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, y'all, like this is the field of all fields where we should feel comfortable talking about the whole human experience.
Hannah: Yeah. And sexuality is a huge part of that. Like even if you're asexual. Because even if you're asexual, you're living in a world that presumes you're not. Mm-hmm. And so that's gonna like impact how you feel about yourself sexually and asexual people castle, have sexual relationships. You know this anyway.
So it's like it impacts us all. Absolutely.
Nicole: Absolutely. So to feel uncomfortable about that, That's where I get angry and I'm like, this isn't ethical for our field to not be talking about these things, to not have some working level comfortability because this is something that everyone, like you said, is going to have some sort of connection to in a different way.
Hannah: I'm not sure what the situation is in the UK actually, but I remember learning that in the US if you're training to be a marriage and family therapist mm-hmm. You don't learn about sexuality. Sure. Like that's not on the, that's not on the curriculum for being a marriage therapist. And I was like, shocked.
You're not. I was like, you're not qualified then Like Right. How can you, you are not qualified, right? You have to do a separate. Of course to then specifically become a sexuality. I know therapist. I know. I know. That's the certification element of like, okay, good, like this person can be trusted, but then also that's the gatekeeping.
Nicole: Absolutely. That's exactly, yeah. What I think is important to highlight is that a lot of this is also gatekeeping, and I think that's the trickiness of it because. You do want someone who's been trained, who has, you know, the ability to check their bias and the ability to hold that back and not to be inflicting their bias on other people.
I think that's a lot of my fear with like not having credentials or other things like that. But the reality is also like people have credentials and still let their biases lie out the window. So I'm like, I don't know.
Hannah: Another thing that we don't have, like in the uk, but I, so I did one of my sexuality certification, educator certification courses Yeah.
From a US organization. True. Um, and so you have to do a sar, have you done a sar? Mm-hmm. No. So it's like a, it's called a sexuality. Oh my god. Assessment, a sexuality attitudes reassessment. Mm-hmm. And so it's a, a workshop and like loads of different organizations and individuals offer them in the us so I, I did mine online, but you can do them in person as well.
And basically, I mean, they might function in different ways, but the way that my one did was that you're just exposed to all different kinds of, Sexualities, behaviors, lifestyles. And then in like small groups, you, you, the idea is that you take off your professional hat, so you're like, you're actually coming into this workshop as you personally.
Yeah. And so then it's a chance for you to actually look at your biases. Like when you hear people talking about ethical non-monogamy or B D S M, like what comes up for you? Like how, how do you feel about that? And so like what things do you need to be aware of if you are. Educating on that topic, or you've got clients who are into B D S M or you know, non-monogamous.
Yeah, it's, it's really interesting. It's, it's, it's really, really great. Like I would highly recommend, cuz then you just get a chance to kind of, for sure. Really understand where you are coming at, what your personal baggage is with everything. Yeah. So then you can go into your, like, professional scenarios, aware of that, right?
Like you, it's impossible to always leave everything at the door, but you, but it's like, Good to be aware of. And then one of the other things that the instructors are talking about is like knowing when to not take a client or not do a thing because you're like, actually, do you know what? Because of absolutely personal reasons, like somebody else might be best off Yes.
Serving this person.
Nicole: Yes. And that's the important thing, is being able to know that within yourself, that self, you know, exploration to be able to say, yeah, this is not gonna be something that's fitting for me. I've. I've talked about that before with some of my supervisors where I don't think I could work with someone that's really back in like a Mormon culture.
I think it'd be really hard for me to not mm-hmm. Have a strong bias to wanna pull that person out of that culture. Yeah. And so then at that point, I am not an effective person to sit with them because I have such a strong bias towards that, and it's not okay to be coming in with that. And so being able to notice that I think is so important to be making sure that we're not enacting harm, but, Hmm.
As you were saying that, I was thinking like, Yeah, I'm a kinky polyamorous, you know, sex educator, and I think I scare a lot of people when I say that.
Hannah: You know, I think it, you know, it's just like, it's not talked about. Yeah. And it's not, you know, quote unquote the norm. And so when you say that or introduce yourself in that way to like somebody, I, I imagine you get like, Lots of different kinds of reactions.
Yeah. Where like, it either comes across as like, I have no idea what to say to you, or asking about, or like someone who's like really curious and is just like, huh. Yeah. Yeah. And just, it's like a real mix. Um, absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's interesting. I find like with things like cake and non-monogamy, there's this real binary Mm of, of it being like, you're either not kinky or you're like, Into some dungeon torture.
Mm-hmm. And you've got all, all your, like say more, say more. Or like, you've been with the same partner since you were like 15 years old. You've never slept with anyone else. Like you got married, da la da. Or you are like single and swinging and you have like 10 different partners. I think there's this mentality of like us and then when it comes to like kinky versus vanilla, like monogamous and like poly.
When actually, like, I feel like it's all just like much more on a spectrum. I mean, like, that's such a cliche thing to say when it comes to like sexuality. No, but it's important to say. Um, yeah, and I, but I think like, yeah, cause we often talk about sexuality and gender and things being on a spectrum, but I think about things like lifestyles and preferences and those kinds of things.
Also very much being on a, on a spectrum as well. And it's, oh really? Yeah, cuz I think hopefully then like maybe it would seem less scary, right?
Nicole: Yes. And I think that's part of like, The othering that happens when there's a lack of education about it, right. That's, mm-hmm. The reality of when you don't know anybody in your community who does these things, all you hear about it is the ideas that float around in the collective, you know, consciousness, which is maybe like what, like, 50 shades of gray.
I don't know. You know what I mean? Like that, which is a horrible representation of B D S M and Olive of kink, by the way. There's some really problematic natures with that relationship,
Hannah: but it's so popular in mainstream. I know. I it grand red them and, but that's where the whole kind of like, it's not this othering thing because like this is turning a lot of people on, right?
Like and so, The way that I imagine it is that there'll be people who are like reading 50 Shade of Gray and like feel a little tingle in their genital. Yeah. Kinda like, isn't this naughty? Yes. But then when they hear about somebody who is actually into kink Yeah. And maybe actually has like a DS relationship.
That to them is suddenly just like, no, that's weird. You're a freak. Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And it's like you're, you're on the same spectrum. You're enjoying like fictional kinky stuff. Yeah. And then there are just people just like, who fe a bit further along enjoying like real kinky stuff.
Mm-hmm. But yeah, it's interesting cuz then with the monogamy stuff as well, cuz I'm monogamous. Mm-hmm. But there's a lot of kind of what I remember learning. The term like toxic monogamy culture. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which, you know, kind of includes things like you can't flirt with anyone else. You can't have crushes on other people and like all of these things, meaning that you don't fancy your partner, you don't love your partner that you are, that you are lying in, you know that the relationship is doomed and like all of these things.
And so like it's really important to me to. Understand like actually how expansive monogamy can be. Yes. But also like actually like looking at the reality of human sexuality and how then the reality of human sexuality can fit into monogamy if that's what you want. Totally. But then you have people who are like, oh, you shouldn't masturbate if you are in a relationship because you should have all of your sexual needs met by your partner.
And if you masturbate in a relationship, then some. Some people are really offended by that. I know. And it makes me really sad. Yeah. Um, and then in, in their heads it might be like, okay, so you're masturbating to porn. That means you don't love me, and it means that you want a threesome and it means that you want another partner.
And it means that actually you're, you know, you're suddenly gonna wanna start swinging. It's like, no, not necessarily. Yeah. It is this like, you see it as like all or nothing, black and white. Yes. Yes.
Nicole: Yeah, it's tricky. Absolutely. I'm curious if you know of the work, um, from Dean Spade about the romance myth? No.
Highly recommend their stuff. They're really amazing. We recorded an episode in the past and like just talking about the realities of the romance myth that kind of creates that world of, you know, If I am attracted to anybody else, it is somehow meaning that I don't love you. And that kind of like conflicts with our idea of the romance myth of when you fall in love and when you're with one person,
Hannah: it is that person becomes to everything.
Yeah.
Nicole: And it's like that I think is heartbreaking to me. Monogamy is beautiful. It is heartbreaking for me to say that you can no longer see the world as beautiful. Which means finding other people attractive and saying That's a beautiful person out there. I am choosing to focus my energy here because I'm building something here, but I'm not gonna deny the reality that there is beauty in humanity out in the world.
Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. I remember like throughout my entire life, I was always that kind of person who like as soon as I would develop a crush on somebody else, it would replace the feelings that I had for the other person. Mm-hmm. So I was genuinely like these people who worry about. Like monogamy in poly, like I was, I was their worst nightmare because as soon as I felt any attraction to somebody else, I'd be like, I'm interested in that person.
Bye. But I mean, I was in my teens and early twenties. Sure. So it's like, whatever. But then I remember like when I met, um, when I was with my now husband mm-hmm. Um, we'd been going out like almost a year, and I met someone who I had like an immediate like attraction to. Mm-hmm. And there was just like such vibes and I was like, if I was single, I would be pursuing like a hundred percent.
But the wild thing to me was, is that like, I actually felt quite torn up inside about it because I was like, I've never experienced having like a proper, proper crush on someone. And I was fairly confident that the feelings were reciprocated as well. Like, you know, you could just tell, you can tell. You can feel it.
Yeah. You can feel the energy. Yeah. And I'd never felt that feeling before. But it not replaced the feeling feelings that I had for my partner. And so I was just like, how do I have this crush? But I still love my partner because that had never happened to me before. And I was like, what is going on? And yeah, it was wild and ended up talking to my partner about it as well.
And I can just be like, this happened and. Yeah, I mean that crush faded. And then here I am still six years later with my partner and, and also we now have the kind of relationship where we can talk to each other about crushes that we develop on people. Oh. Um, which is a lot of fun. Yeah. And it, and it now means, cuz I, I've, I've maybe had one other crush on someone that has been a similar kind of intensity.
Yeah. Um, since then, but it didn't eat me up. Mm-hmm. You know, it didn't make me feel horrible and guilty for experiencing that because there was this understanding in my relationship.
Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Now that you've brought that out into the open mm-hmm. Realize that it's not a deal breaker, you can continue to build the beautiful relationship that you're building.
It's okay to bring up those feelings, cuz I would say those feelings are normal. Those feelings are biological, like we shouldn't be having to deny that aspect of ourself, how you choose to go about it. Everyone gets to choose how they construct their life, but denying exactly the reality, that human experience, I think is what leads to a lot of pain.
I mean, I mean, I remember when I was doing monogamous relationships in the past, like going to the movie theaters and saying that like, I found an actor like attractive on screen. And my, my partner at the time was really offended by that and was like,
Hannah: oh no. That's like the real extreme end of like the insecurity.
Yeah.
Nicole: Oh my goodness. Yeah. But again, within the romance myth, it makes sense. And again, within the romance myth, it makes sense that we would feel guilt within all of this. And I think that's like part of the trickiness of all of these experiences too. Is that like when we feel that sense of guilt, is it because of a sense of truth within us or is it it because of a socialization that has taught us a certain way?
Hannah: An expectation?
Nicole: Yeah. That is maybe not reflective of. The, you know, the reality of our experience. You know, when I was stepping out of purity culture, I felt a lot of shame. Mm-hmm. And a lot of guilt. But in my whole path and trajectory, I think that was the, the right thing for me to do, you know? Yeah. So I think being able to sit with those emotions and like, honor you know, where they're coming from, and giving ourselves some compassion for why we feel that way, and then being able to talk about them with whoever we're with.
Big pieces to normalize this process and at the end of the day to bring more connection in our
Hannah: relationships. Yeah, for sure. And and like you said, like however you go about it, that then is like to be negotiated Yeah. With your partner or whoever. Um, and in terms of like what you want, so like, you know, my choice was that like I wanted a monogamous relationship with my partner, but I wanted us to be able to talk about these things and be open about it.
But for somebody else it might have been like, No, actually I want to have the kind of relationship where I feel like I could be free to pursue those feelings. Mm-hmm. If they were to come up again. And that is also totally valid. Yes. Um, yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting one. And like, kinda like what you said as well, that's something that I kind of preach all the time, which is like, is it the thing itself that is causing you distress or is it resistance to the thing?
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That is what is making you distressed. Yeah. Um, Yeah, because oftentimes it's the kind of like, like for example, Say you've got like low desire or a low sex drive, is that actually causing problems or is it the expectation and the thoughts that you should have a higher sex drive that is actually causing the issues?
Right, exactly. Whereas if, if you accepted the low desire for what it is, then maybe actually be like, ah, that's fine.
Nicole: Totally, totally. Yeah. That resistance to it, that can make our suffering so much worse. I mean, that that could be applied. Across the board, through all of our mental experience. You know, I start to get anxious and then I'm frustrated that I'm anxious and now I'm gone through the spiral.
Instead of just being like, okay, I'm anxious right now. I can take a deep breath. This is okay.
Hannah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is okay. Yeah. The re resist the resistance to the thing. Always. Eva forces the pain in the first place. All exacerbate. Yeah. Any existing pain.
Nicole: Totally. Yeah. What I think is interesting too, is like, I know we were talking about kink a little bit earlier, like.
And the people who are so like, look at it as this, this far off, like I don't even know we can use words like gross, scary practice. Like Yeah. I would say I was a part of that community of people for a long time of very not understanding it, you know, coming from my Christian background and I just didn't realize how much I liked it.
Until I met someone and then I started having multiple orgasms and was like, well this is interesting, fun. I think I need to rethink my connection to that one. Um, yep. There's something deep there that like, I just didn't even know, like I would've categorized myself as a like strictly vanilla person. I think there was a lot of times that I would be kind of like, Sport insects craving more.
And then to be able to have like, um, kinky sex and to have that space, it brought so much light and energy into this that it's been like mm-hmm. So expansive and fun and just play at this point that like, it's just changed how I view myself sexually and how I show up in my relationships. And I had no idea.
No idea that I like, yes, because every time I'd go to watch porn, And this is still true to me today, is that like, I think that when I think about the psychology, we we're like projecting onto people. And for me, like when I would watch those, I would project onto the people. Like I would see, you know, maybe a masculine presenting person and I'd be like, Ew.
Like they're like degrading this person, like. That doesn't feel good. Like I don't, I don't like watching that like, oh God. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, and I think I couldn't really see that and enjoy that porn until I had been in a relationship with someone who was so loving and kind and tender with me.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And also did that stuff to me. Yeah. To which now when I watch the porn, I'm like, all right, like this is a person who is doing this with the container of both of them wanting this context, both of them desiring this. This is someone who cares about the other person on the other side. And so like my ability to project out into those scenes that I'm watching is radically different than in the past.
Yeah.
Hannah: But, but also I think a lot of the porn doesn't show you the context. Oh no. Yeah. And like you said, the container that needs to be. To be established before any scene. But I do think there's, there's been a big shift, especially in the kind of like ethical feminist porn production world well done, where a lot of the directors and producers will film consent conversations before.
Yes. Um, before they film. And then they'll also upload those as like part of the film or it'll come like right before you then watch whatever the porn is and it's them talking just like, oh yeah, hi, I'm this person. And like, these are the things I'm into and like, you can touch me here, but not here. And like, and I love those.
I mean, I sometimes skip them, but I'm glad.
Nicole: Exactly. Because it allows us to see real. Sexual experiences which have that negotiation and when the reality is that we're using porn as education because of how, you know, privatized sex is then like we, we need, need to be having those conversations shown so that we can have some sort of way to learn on how to do these things.
Because where else am I supposed to learn how that conversation looks? You know what that conversation looks like.
Hannah: Yeah, the reality of it, cuz like obviously porn's got its issues and stuff, but Sure. It's where a lot of people are going for education. I don't think it's necessarily porn's responsibility to educate because it's the, you know, it's not like Hollywood's responsibility to educate us through, you know, entertainment.
Sure. Um, but it can be nice when it does as well. Totally, totally. Um, but you're, but it's because there are no other places Absolutely. Where you're getting the education. Right. So it's like, if porn is the only place you've got a problem. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's why we need the kind of like other, I guess you, you, you said like the privatization, like of sex.
Mm-hmm. So I guess maybe the, the like education element is the, like the public Yeah. Area of sex. But, so
Nicole: what does that look like if it's not porn though? You know, that's the tricky piece mm-hmm. Is like, what do we need? Like a, a audio recording of someone talking about their consent and then rolling through sex with
Hannah: how do we do Oh, you mean like the actual Yeah, cause like the actual practical examples.
Yeah.
Nicole: Like how do, how do you, how do you do that? Other than, I guess you could use other things like an educational video or, or something. But like at some point, if you're going to give like a lived example of it other than like a text. And that's, that's the problem. You can give a text transcript and that will not show you the lived experience of the tone, the body language, the experience, the intimacy.
And so it's like at some point we do need some sort of like, uh, I would say visual representation that shows us what it's like and like, yeah, maybe it's not porn because porn is a entertainment. Right. And I've had a lot of conversations with other, um, researchers,
Hannah: but there's also, um, There's, yeah. Oh, you interviewed her from, uh, sex school.
Sex. Yeah, totally. Yeah. So I think there's, yeah, there's stuff happening in that space. Space. It for sure to have like explicit, like it obviously is, has to be for like 18 plus, but explicit education because yeah, you're right tho those things are useful. I think most people without that do end up learning from experience, which there is a beauty in most of us do.
There is something quite fun and joyous about just like letting your curiosity take you wherever it's gonna go. But yeah, I think without, without the kind of like foundation of a good toolkit when it comes to sex and relationships, learning by experience, you know, comes with its risks. But I don't know, I, I, I, I wish, like my dream would be that like most people can learn from experience safely in a way that they want because they've been given.
That toolkit through education and stuff, and maybe porn is like, like, or not porn, but like porn literacy. Yeah. Is like part of that toolkit. Um, totally,
Nicole: totally. Yes. That's, well, yes, I'm all here for imagining that future of what it's gonna look like. You know, once there's more space to be able to talk about these things, once there's more space for people to, yeah.
Like you said, learn through experience, because there's been. More of an openness to have these sorts of conversations. And yeah, I think, I mean, you're a part of that movement. I'm part of that movement, and I think that that movement will go on long beyond our lifetimes. I think that that will go on when we are, you know, ancestors that they look back to because there's so much change that needs to happen, and it's slow moving, but like, we're a part of that movement and people will stand on us in the future in the same way that we stand and all the, you know, feminists that made it possible for us to talk about contraception.
I was freaking about Margaret Sanger just like getting arrested for having a magazine that talked about contraception. And I'm just like, whoop, that wasn't even a hundred years ago. My god. You know, like, no. Yeah. So I am trying to think long term in that one of like, these, this work that we're doing here is, is crucial.
And then we'll continue to live on after us and go even deeper. Yeah.
Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. And now that I have a kid as well, like, I definitely feel that. Mm-hmm. In terms of just thinking about like, I don't know, like the way that a lot of teenagers now talk about sex and relationships is so different to what it was like when I was a teenager.
And so I'm like, what is it gonna be like when you are a teenager? I'm like, you know what I mean? Like, I'm just like, wow, what is that? What, like what is it gonna be? I don't know.
Totally, totally. Things, things change so fast. Mm-hmm. And also, Very slowly at the same time,
Nicole: right? Yes. And that one. Yeah. And I know you were talking earlier about yeah, your new identity as a mom and how that has been changed and everything.
I'd be curious if you could tell me more about Yeah. Where you're at right now with, with motherhood and being a sex educator. I think sometimes those cultural, um, identities might feel conflicting at times given the society that we live under.
Hannah: Yeah, I mean, it is the classic like Madonna Hall Complex, isn't it?
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. It, it hits that. But I mean, luckily I don't feel that personally and my product partner doesn't projects that onto me at all. Yeah, yeah. Um, but on, on a practical level, being a sexual person is really difficult when you have a small person to look after. We bed share as well.
So like, literally like the baby sleeps next to me. In the bed and then my partner sleeps on the floor. Mm-hmm. So, you know, but then you know what, it's interesting that you mentioned the Romance Smith thing as well. Cause I imagine that that's part of the romance Smith, so you have to share a bed. Yeah.
You know? Oh, totally.
Nicole: That's the, you know, relationship escalator right there.
Hannah: Yeah. Like you have to share a bed and you know, people, like you could look at our relationship now on the outside and just be like, Oh my God. Like you're not having sex. There's so much less intimacy. You're not sharing a bed, like all of these things.
But I've never felt closer to my partner in terms of as this person who I'm building this life with, but then also as my sexual partner, even if we're not actually being sexual like with each other, but we make a real effort to kind of like nurture our sex life outside of sex and. Remind each other that we like find each other sexually attractive and like the, you know, the attraction and the desire is that even just if on a practical level, it's just not possible for us right now.
And you know, just being like, and that's fine. And again, it kind of comes back to the, like the resist. If we resisted that and if we were like, this is terrible, then that would actually like cause more pain and stress in our relationship. Mm-hmm. Than if we were just like, do you know what, this is just a phase.
Totally. Like this is just like what it is. I'm really lucky that my. Partner is like, chill about this kind of stuff. But then I don't like framing it as I'm lucky because actually like it should just be the norm. Because I do hear a lot of stories about, especially like, um, cis, he, people in a relationship, like in a relationship who've just had kids for the first time where like the man will be quite demanding about getting their sex life like back on track or like back to normal and the.
You know, the birthing parent is just like, you have no fucking clue what I've just gone through and what I'm like still going through. Mm-hmm. And I do think that there is this kind of like bridge to cross in terms of understanding. Yeah. Um, in terms of just like what I've seen, I'm, again, I feel lucky, but also like.
It shouldn't be the case. It should be the norm. Absolutely. It's not a pressure that I feel in my relationship at all. Mm-hmm. But I just, I just do hear stories and I see posts on all of these like mom parent forums and stuff. And it does make, it does make me like really quite angry. Yeah. Wow. There, there's just that, there is a real, it feels like for in a lot of relationships, like cis hat relationships.
Mm-hmm. Um, especially. That you have a baby and then it just like creates this like chasm mm-hmm. Where suddenly you can't relate to the other person. Like your experiences that of it are so different mm-hmm. That it's really difficult to see where the other person is Yeah. Is coming from and like their experience.
Yeah. And it, it is kind of heartbreaking a lot of the stories that I've heard, but yeah, it's, it's, it's one of those ones, so I'm just like, I get so mad. Mm-hmm.
Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, because there needs to be a shift in how this is, you know, seen and the normalization around this time of the changes in the body.
I'm, I'm curious. Yeah. What was that experience like for you?
Hannah: Yeah, it. For me, it really unexpectedly even I, so I had a c-section and so I just assumed that my vagina would be absolutely fine. Right. Oh, no, it is sealed up tight. Oh, it, I don't know if it's vaus. Yeah. Um, or it's just like, like a really, I've, I've got basically just a really tight tense pelvic floor at the moment, so I've been seeing a pelvic floor physiotherapist to kind of, I've been given lots of exercises by, The physiotherapist and also a body worker mm-hmm.
In terms of like relaxing all of those muscles and stuff. Yeah. But then as a new mom, fighting time to do all of that. So it's really interesting that like, I've experienced this like actual, like biological, like block to my sex life, but then I, I just don't have the time to deal with it. Mm mm And I'm just like, ah, that way is this like so low down on the priority list.
Totally. And then also just practically, it's tricky when. My baby is asleep in the bed next to me.
Nicole: Right, right. Of course. Of course. Yeah. And I
Hannah: think, but again, I'm just like, it's a face, it's temporary.
Nicole: Totally, totally, totally. But I can imagine there's probably so much frustration that like the body is. Is responding in a way that maybe you didn't choose, that's not how
Hannah: maybe to show up.
And also like I'm like wasn't expecting it as well. Yeah. So it's just like, oh great. There's so much, especially like in the first few months postpartum, like your body is just doing so much fucking weird shit. Yeah. And, and then like to throw this at me as well, I was like, really? Right. Another thing to think about.
Right. Great.
Nicole: Right. Exactly onto the list of all the things I'm trying to manage already. Now my body is giving me this and now my partner is wanting that and now I'm sitting here probably feeling horrible in
Hannah: between that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's interesting as well, like, um, Like my partner's been really cool about it.
Like obviously like still with the like, oh, can't wait until we can do that again. They're like, no pressure kind of thing. Yeah. Um, but I think because it's my body mm-hmm. I originally kind of like, thought about it as like my problem. Mm-hmm. That's my responsibility to fix. Mm-hmm. Um, rather than it being something that's like actually a team effort because we've got a shared goal.
Yes. Um, and so when I originally paid for like my first physiotherapy session, cause I went private for it, I paid for that out of my own money. Mm-hmm. And then I was just like, hang on a second. Yeah. This needs to come out the joint account. Totally. And so then I had a conversation with my partner about it and, and so now anything to do with medical appointments to help with that.
Like if it, you know, if it's private, then. We'll pay for out of the joint account. But even then, that was like, I had to kind of gear myself up to have that conversation of like, um, like Right. Can we, can you, can you like chip in 50%? Um Right. The like help my vagina.
Nicole: Totally. But I love that that framing is so important of this is a team project rather than letting it all fall onto me feeling like something's wrong with me and I need to figure this out.
It's like, Yeah, but we are doing this together as a team and I think that that sort of framing is really important cuz our perspective shapes everything, right? And so when you see it as a team endeavor, it takes that pressure off of the individual. And it makes you feel supported. You're not just trying to figure this out by yourself.
You have a team member who wants the same goal and is there to walk with you in that. And that framing can be so crucial to how we see the experience and then thus how we show up in the experience. Yeah, I mean, and that.
Hannah: Kind of mentality applies to just like all of parenting as well, I'm sure.
Nicole: Oh, sure.
I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure. And all of just anything. Right. Even push it even bigger. Mm-hmm. Like as myself, like going through a lot of like conversations around no monogamy, it's like there's always something, you know, where I'm like, I'm insecure about this, or this is over here and this is scary, you know, and it's like being able to trust that.
You know, whether you're raising children, whether you're starting a business with someone, whether you're doing no with whatever the hell you're doing with these people, like we are building things together that are difficult and worthy of that difficulty, right? Like we are building really important things that these people, seeing yourself as on the same team can absolutely change the space of how you show up and how you feel supported.
When I think about like all of the relationship therapy stuff, they always talk about like, Seeing that you're on the same page and that trusting the other person is there for you, trusting that they have capability to be there for you, because the second we start rolling down that thought of they can't do this and they're never gonna show up, you know what happens?
We start showing up differently. We start coming up frustrated. We start being short, we start doing all these things, and so it's so radical. How important that like mindset of how you see your partner, how you see the challenge that you're confronting together will change how the whole container un unfold.
It's radical. Mm-hmm. Yeah. A hundred percent. Crazy. It's crazy. So taking time to just be clear on those perspectives, I think that's where I always like the, um, The question, like the story I'm telling myself is, you know, the narrative and like that's applicable mm-hmm. Through all things, my God. Through mental health.
Yeah. Anything is like, what is the story I'm telling myself about myself? About our connection, about our partnership, about our ability to parent like, man,
Hannah: that stuff is, yeah. Because your brain will just like fill in the gaps and just like make stuff. Mm-hmm. It's wild.
Nicole: And try to protect you.
Hannah: Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And also like sometimes I've, this is just a funny story that I like to share when it comes to kind of like, I remember when my partner did something that pissed me off. Mm-hmm. And I can't even remember what the thing was. Sure. Yeah. Like, so it doesn't, it doesn't yeah. Matter. But I told myself the story that, you know, it was intentional and he was hurting me, or, or best it was like negligence.
Like he wasn't thinking about me. And so I got hurt. Um, he was going off to work. And we do those like recipe boxes, things for dinner. Yeah. And there were like two left and it's like, okay, which one do you want for dinner? And he picked one and then, but cuz I was like stewing in my own like resentment all day.
I was like, you know what? I'm gonna cook the one he didn't want. I don't know. I was like, I was like, ah, revenge. Like literally a ditch that warm. He didn't notice, didn't even notice. But then what happened to us is I told him afterwards, I was like, that thing that you did this morning like hurt me. And so as an act of revenge, I cooked you the meal that you didn't want and now we just laugh about it.
Yeah. Because it's so fucking ridiculous. But I'd told myself this like story, there was almost like a Hollywood film of like, I was hurt and so therefore I have to do something. Spiteful. Mm-hmm. So that he knows that I was hurt. Yeah. Like it was, yeah. It was very silly. But I like to laugh about it now cause it's just so pathetic.
Nicole: Yeah. And I love that you shared it. I think that's the important piece is like, can we sit down with our partners and tell them like, this is how I'm feeling and so I'm reacting like this. And like Yeah. That takes a level of self-awareness and practice of feeling comfortable to share that, of like knowing what's going on inside our own internal experience.
Hannah: My God. I remember just feeling so petty and stupid. Yes. And I'd always just like, I was laughing at myself with a pettiness, and so I just wanted to share that with him. To have somebody to laugh about it. Like I'm telling you, I was like, I just did a thing you haven't even noticed. It's so ridiculous. But also, you kind of did hurt my feelings this morning yet,
Nicole: and being able to say that is so important.
Yeah. And that's how you get closer, right? Is being able to mm-hmm. Express that and you know, Yeah, there's been, I've had multiple experiences with this, with like my partner processing other partners where I'm just like, I wanna come back and be like, you know, like in some sort of way and be very aggressive or like, um, not try to show that I'm insecure because that might make me sound like I can't do this or something.
Yeah. But like, The reality is these emotions that we have are outside of our control. Okay. Yeah. What is within our control is how we show up with them. And so if I have that feeling of wanting to cook the other recipe, or if I have that feeling of wanting to be like, screw you, it's like I can also take a deep breath, come to my partner and be like, you know, I'm having this desire right now.
I'm not gonna do it, but I have, I'm having it and I'm processing through it. Yeah. And like. We do not beat ourselves up for the desire. We do not beat us, beat ourselves up for having that emotional response that is outside of our control. It's like we have to see ourselves through the. Mindful choices that we are creating, that is who we are.
And I think that can be so tricky when we're in our head because we hear all the shitty things. Like when I'm judging people, I can hear that judgment in my head. Mm-hmm. But the reality is who I am is how I choose to show up with that. You know what I mean? Like I check that shit, I put it back, I do my best.
I process it with other people to try and grow. But throughout this, we're all gonna judge people. And it's like, but how you show up is what is important. Yeah.
Hannah: Yeah. Love that. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent.
Nicole: Yeah. I wanna hold a little bit of space as we come towards the end of our time here, in case there is anything lingering for you that you felt like maybe we didn't hit today.
Otherwise, I have a closing question for you.
Hannah: Oh. Hit me with a closing question. Okay.
Nicole: So the closing question is, what is one thing that you wish other people knew was more normal?
Hannah: Oh yeah. Interesting Oh my God. I'm just gonna like spend, you can cut all of this out.
You can cut all the thinking time out totally. And I'll just sit like coming up with an amazing response. Just let's super quick.
Nicole: Totally. I think I originally started it with nipple hairs cuz I was so insecure about it. I was just like, my God, someone else has to have this, right? Like,
Hannah: yeah. Oh my god. Yeah.
No, that. Okay. Then in that case, that's, that's inspired me. Yeah. Um, a protruding in a labia. Mm. What is that lil, where you're like, inner inner flap is bigger than the outer flap and it's like,
Nicole: that's normal. Yeah. Has there been a lot of normal insecurity about that
Hannah: one? Um, do you know what some some reason No. I don't know what it is. Totally. But it's, it's kind of like a, um, something. Fun. Like, like it's kind of like, it's endearing. Like my, like my partner's just like, oh, there it is. Hello. Like, it, it's, yes.
I think it's a case of like, you know, you can go from one extreme to the other where like either it's all you can see and you are really insecure about it. To then you just ignore it. Mm. Like it's not here, we just, we don't talk about it. Mm-hmm. Whereas I'm like the kind of like, no, we acknowledge that I've got like a really weird looking and that's fine.
And that's cool. And I like that middle ground of like acknowledging it, but celebrating it rather than shaming it kind of thing. And I, yeah, I want everyone to know that whatever your lady is doing is normal. Yes,
Nicole: yes, yes. It is your beautiful body and you are the only person with that body. And it is beautiful.
I always think about nature. And the way that, you know, you can look at a tree and it's got multiple leaves, but we don't ever look at one leave and be like, well that is not completely the same as this other leaf. So you know what? That is an ugly leaf.
Hannah: What a wonky leaf.
Nicole: I know, I know. And it's like we forget that like we are nature as well and we all have different sizes, shapes, configurations, but the problem is we've been told like this is the leaf.
This is Leaf and if you are not this leaf then you are weird. And it's like that is not how nature shows up. We have such a smattering of different types of sizes and shapes and colors and ugh. I really appreciate you sharing that as something to normalize because I think the more people talk about that and celebrate the beauty of what that is and their unique, you know, beautiful body, there'll be more space for people to feel comfortable in theirs.
Hannah: Yeah. Absolutely.
Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it was such a pleasure to have you. Where do you wanna plug? Sorry, I cut you up. Oh, yeah. Where do you wanna plug to, um, people who wanna connect with you and your work?
Hannah: Yeah, so most of my, like sex and relationships videos are on youtube.com/hannah Whitten. And then my podcast, where I interview lots of different people about sex and relationships is called Doing It, doing It podcast.
And then if you're just interested in kind of learning more about me and my life, I kind of upload vlogs and life and parenting stuff on my YouTube channel, which is called More Hannah.
Nicole: I love that. I love that. I'm excited to see your journey continue to unsold as you. Or an educator in this space and, uh, a new mom.
Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, it was such a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thank you.
Hannah: Oh, it was so fun. Thank you.
Nicole: If you enjoy today's episode, then leave us a five star review wherever you listen to your podcast. And head on over to Modern Anarchy podcast.com to get resources and learn more about all the things we talked about on today's episode.
I wanna thank you for tuning in and I will see you all next week.
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